Armor Check Penalty on Reflex Saves? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Armor Check Penalty on Reflex Saves? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Darth_Singe
11-05-06, 01:51 AM One of my players today realized he had been applying his armor check penalty to his reflex saves for about the past 12 levels. He argued the point to me, saying he thinks it makes sense, that his armor would slow down his reaction time.

I can sort of see the logic in this, and it was brought up as part of the weekly 'House Rules' forum of the session.

I was wondering what other people think about this.
Ogre4Hire
11-05-06, 02:46 AM Max Dex bonus is the limit that you can apply your Dex bonus to your Armor Class. It has absolutely no effect on any other dex based activity. A character with a 20 dex who's wearing a suit of Full Plate gets a +1 Dex bonus to AC, and a +5 Dex bonus to Reflex Saves, Initative, Hide and Move Silent checks, ect.

I have no idea why a player would want to intentionally nerf his character.
Mitchell
11-05-06, 03:24 AM I wouldn't do it.
A character with a really high dex wearing full plate has already penalized themselves. Why punish them further?
Darth_Singe
11-05-06, 05:09 AM I tend to agree, being that I know I have been carrying some pretty heavy stuff and moved out of the way just in time, getting that adrenaline burst going and all that.

He thought he had to subtract it for some reason, and only today did he ask me about it.

But then after he pleaded his case, two out of the other three players agreed, making the vote stand at 3-2 for the rule. I may have to use my DM Veto power :)
Neutronium_Dragon
11-05-06, 05:20 AM Simple solution: Ask them to find where, in the actual rules text, it states that you apply your armor check penalty to your reflex saves.

They won't be able to find it.
Witch
11-05-06, 05:48 AM They know it's not in the rules. They think it makes sense regardless. Try arguing why, not state facts.
Someone
11-05-06, 01:24 PM Well, the core of the mistake here is the belief that 40 pounds of steel somehow slow down the neurons in your brain. Just because the added inertia means you can't go ducking and weaving out of the way as quickly, it doesn't stop you from closing your eyes or holding your breath as soon as a fireball heads your way.
Reversefigure4
11-05-06, 05:47 PM Careful now. Applying too much logic here is a slippery slope. Consider:

- After a long day's march, you must be tired. At what point do your Fort saves start to take a penalty?
- When distracted, your mind is not as resistant as it could be. At what point do we penalise Will saves?
- Where exactly is that Greatsword placed? It might prevent you diving out of the way - lower your Ref save. Then do it again for the dagger hidden in your boots, the bulge of the wand out of your pack, etc...

As an abstract mechanism, Ref saves are not penalised by ACP. No need to get into the logic of it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Darth_Singe 11-05-06, 01:51 AM	One of my players today realized he had been applying his armor check penalty to his reflex saves for about the past 12 levels. He argued the point to me, saying he thinks it makes sense, that his armor would slow down his reaction time. I can sort of see the logic in this, and it was brought up as part of the weekly 'House Rules' forum of the session. I was wondering what other people think about this.
Ogre4Hire 11-05-06, 02:46 AM	Max Dex bonus is the limit that you can apply your Dex bonus to your Armor Class. It has absolutely no effect on any other dex based activity. A character with a 20 dex who's wearing a suit of Full Plate gets a +1 Dex bonus to AC, and a +5 Dex bonus to Reflex Saves, Initative, Hide and Move Silent checks, ect. I have no idea why a player would want to intentionally nerf his character.
Mitchell 11-05-06, 03:24 AM	I wouldn't do it. A character with a really high dex wearing full plate has already penalized themselves. Why punish them further?
Darth_Singe 11-05-06, 05:09 AM	I tend to agree, being that I know I have been carrying some pretty heavy stuff and moved out of the way just in time, getting that adrenaline burst going and all that. He thought he had to subtract it for some reason, and only today did he ask me about it. But then after he pleaded his case, two out of the other three players agreed, making the vote stand at 3-2 for the rule. I may have to use my DM Veto power :)
Neutronium_Dragon 11-05-06, 05:20 AM	Simple solution: Ask them to find where, in the actual rules text, it states that you apply your armor check penalty to your reflex saves. They won't be able to find it.
Witch 11-05-06, 05:48 AM	They know it's not in the rules. They think it makes sense regardless. Try arguing why, not state facts.
Someone 11-05-06, 01:24 PM	Well, the core of the mistake here is the belief that 40 pounds of steel somehow slow down the neurons in your brain. Just because the added inertia means you can't go ducking and weaving out of the way as quickly, it doesn't stop you from closing your eyes or holding your breath as soon as a fireball heads your way.
Reversefigure4 11-05-06, 05:47 PM	Careful now. Applying too much logic here is a slippery slope. Consider: - After a long day's march, you must be tired. At what point do your Fort saves start to take a penalty? - When distracted, your mind is not as resistant as it could be. At what point do we penalise Will saves? - Where exactly is that Greatsword placed? It might prevent you diving out of the way - lower your Ref save. Then do it again for the dagger hidden in your boots, the bulge of the wand out of your pack, etc... As an abstract mechanism, Ref saves are not penalised by ACP. No need to get into the logic of it.