Post/Author/DateTime	Post
lekpic 06-20-06, 08:55 AM	IDF says players are detached from reality and automatically given a low security clearance By Hanan Greenberg Does the Israel Defense Forces believe incoming recruits and soldiers who play Dungeons and Dragons are unfit for elite units? Ynet has learned that 18-year-olds who tell recruiters they play the popular fantasy game are automatically given low security clearance. “They're detached from reality and suscepitble to influence,” the army says. Fans of the popular roleplaying game had spoken of rumors of this strange policy by the IDF, but now the army has confirmed that it has a negative image of teens who play the game and labels them as problematic in regard to their draft status. So if you like fantasy games, go see the military psychologist. Dungeons and Dragons (also known as D&D) has been a popular roleplaying game for decades and is based on a fantasy world. One player assumes the role of “Dungeon Master,” which entails directing the game and controlling the labyrinth, while the others select from a large selection of characters that includes warriors, magicians, dwarfs and thieves. The game focuses on the results of decisions made by the players as determined by the roll of the dice. In a more "active" version of the game, players leave the table and go out, dressed as the characters they assume for the game, along with the requisite equipment of swords (not real) to play outside, usually in the forest or woods. Most D&D players do not don costumes, and participants in such costume games are called "LARPers" (for live-action role playing). 'Simply detached from reality' Thousands of youth and teens in Israel play D&D, fighting dragons and demons using their rich imaginations. The game has also increased in popularity due to the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy. However the IDF does not approve of this unusual hobby and prevents D&D players from being considered for sensitive army positions by labeling them with low security clearance. "We have discovered that some of them are simply detached from reality," a security source told Ynet. Game enthusiasts are aware of their problematic image in the army and prefer to maintain their anonymity. Many of them are from the former Soviet Union, where the game is very popular. In Israel there are thousands of players, between the ages 16 to 35, and include lawyers, high-tech workers and businessmen. Matan, 22, and Igor, a 21-year-old IDF soldier, organize activities for groups of players. Soon hundreds of fans are expected to meet in a forest in the southern part of Israel for a two-day game of pure fantasy. "It's not a game of winners and losers," Matan says, "but rather entry into another world with stories and plot changes." He is aware of the game's problematic reputation, especially in the IDF. The army is not indifferent to the unique hobby and is trying to locate soldiers who in their free time dress up as witches and play in forests. 'The game indicates a weak personality' A security official tells Ynet there are specific criteria for deciding the level of a soldier's security clearance. "One of the tests we do, either by asking soldiers directly or through information provided us, is to ask whether they take part in the game," he says. "If a soldier answers in the affirmative, he is sent to a professional for an evaluation, usually a psychologist." More than half of the soldiers sent for evaluation receive low security clearances, thus preventing them from serving in sensitive IDF positions, he says. Igor says exposing soldiers who play the game could result in the soldiers being sent to a military psychologist or even being kicked out of the army. "Exposing them could also harm their chances at being accepted to other military courses," he says. Matan says he has personally met soldiers whose military career was harmed due to their connection to the game. Most soldiers who play Dungeons and Dragons simply do not admit to it while they are in the army, he says. Why does IDF believe game is dangerous? "These people have a tendency to be influenced by external factors which could cloud their judgment, a military official says. "They may be detached from reality or have a weak personality - elements which lower a person's security clearance, allowing them to serve in the army, but not in sensitive positions." Unsurprisingly, Igor, Matan and thier friends do not approve of this IDF policy. They say the game is only a colorful, non-violent hobby. "Many people who play served in the most classified units," David says. "They are intelligent and any attempt to label them as 'weird' is incorrect and unfair." But in the struggle between the gameplayers and the Defense Minister, the latter wins - or at least this is the case in the real world of the IDF. Read the article here (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles//0,7340,L-3052074,00.html) What do y'all think about this article?
Bobmakenzie 06-20-06, 09:08 AM	Abit of old news :P But what did you expect , we are a minority. One not even protected by minority rights so we are gonna be discriminated against....damn....uh....Gamists? :confused: DAve-
lekpic 06-20-06, 09:12 AM	This is a recent article about other armies, not our own US army. I have friends who were in the military that played D&D to pass the time during monsoons and such. I think our armed forces may even encourage D&D. Check out this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=9434240#post9434240) thread for the positive spin.
CzarGarrett 06-20-06, 09:19 AM	Several months ago, this place was spammed constantly with this article. We've seen it, we've argued about it, we've gotten the threads locked.
Renvale999 06-20-06, 09:21 AM	You want a real slap in the face as a gamer, go to some of the hard-core christian websites or Jack Chick's "Dark Dungeon".....not so much fun. Patricia Pulling was alot of fun too, almost single-handedly brought down D&D....her son killed himself and then she went on a rampage saying that D&D was the cause of it....she actually testified in court as an expert on D&D, though there is no such thing as an expert lol. Luckily the "Pullings Report" came out and discredited her. I don't think we are ever not going to be discriminated against...people fear what they don't understand and D&D is a very easy target to make a scape-goat....no one wants to take responsiblity for their actions....much easier to point a finger and say "he made me do it....it was the drugs.....I was abused as a child" You know, I was abused as a kid...doesn't give me the right to do it to someone else... :rant: Anyway sorry for ranting
Keoki 06-20-06, 09:28 AM	I used to live in the former USSR and practically no one's even heard of D&D. In fact, there are only about four shops there where the game can be found, no offical translation, and very few people can afford it.
Azezel 06-20-06, 09:29 AM	Renvale999 - Mentioning that man, or that woman is a breach of the Board's Code of Conduct. As for DnD+Millitary, When I went up for the RAF they had no problem with it, and I know two players who are currently serving with the US armed forces, and neither tell any stories of discrimination. PRobably something limmited to Israel...
Gedrin 06-20-06, 12:04 PM	Maybe the reason the IDF things D&D makes people weak minded is that so many gamers whine about the discrimination afflicted on them by 25 year old tracts and distraught mothers who happen to have been DEAD for YEARS.
FellBlade 06-20-06, 12:22 PM	1. D&D (and rpgs, war games, puzzles in general) have PROVEN to strengthen ones intellectual stability (meaning rpgs have are PROVEN to help promote mental health) 2. "Weak personality" what this means to me is someone who...I don’t know, who doesn’t know where there going and generally has a follower or "slave" mentality say for instance EVERY SOLDIER WHO WORTH ANYTHING AS A SOLDIER (and yes I have studied Friedrich Nietzsche at length along with other respected scientists and philosophers so no this is not intended to be an insult to soldiers this is a scientific profile that has been explored by many men far greater than myself)
babysamurai 06-20-06, 12:23 PM	me of course being african and having my own problems. My wife being Kenyan - I can sympathize.
FellBlade 06-20-06, 01:16 PM	sorry guys
Bruunwald 06-20-06, 01:55 PM	The irony is, D&D is the direct descendant of generals moving units on a map in a tent. H.G. Wells was one of the first to publish rules for a game based on that concept, utilizing children's toy soldiers to stand in for units. Everything else down through the years is the same thing, just with more imagination, story, and heaps of rules tossed in. Ah well... Obviously, the decision to stygmatize anybody answering in the affirmative is made before he is deferred to the psychologist. Note they give no evidence why, no actual diagnosis, nor do they cite any report from said psychologists as to why the subject would seem to be more easily influenced than any other subject. That's because there is no evidence and no such diagnosis can be made. It would take batteries of controlled tests involving scores, if not hundreds of subjects, to determine if an entire segment of the population were more susceptible to influence than others. You couldn't legitimately draw that conclusion from a few counselors meeting with a few individuals. On the other hand, a very realistic scenario might be thus: An army bigwig asks a soldier if he plays. That soldier says yes, so the bigwig sends him to the army psychologist, and tells him, "this guy plays, and I have suspicions about him." So the psychologist, his opinion tainted, sees what he wants to see so he can tell his boss what his boss wants to hear. Occam's Razor wins again.
Sulaco 06-20-06, 02:06 PM	Oh my god, not this again. Can we sticky this link so that people will stop posting it every few weeks?
CantripN 06-20-06, 02:36 PM	Well, matter of fact is I'm from Israel ans am about to get drafted to the IDF. It seems this attitude towards D&D is not all that common, at least from what I've seen. The army high-ups being what they are, though, all people who are even slightly prone to THOUGHT are suspect. My guess would be that in order to get to high ranks, you'd need to keep acting like you are a simpelton who's just a tad short of a fool. Those I've met from officer (or higher) ranks (friends, etc..) all state that free thought and hobbies in general are not approved of, until you get to high ranks, at which point you get to come clean cause you got priviliges and tasks that require thought and adaptation. A stupid, yet effective way to get qualified people. Results seem positive.
Starchaserva 06-20-06, 02:38 PM	Hey, if you don't like the threads around here, why don't you post a few original ones of your own?
Robert_Fox_Kitsune 06-20-06, 04:21 PM	Oh my god, not this again. Can we sticky this link so that people will stop posting it every few weeks? I have to say, first time I've seen it, albeit i've been on the frums little over a couple of months Well I knew of a lot of discrimination aginst d and d, but the army? I never would have thought. Also, I've just seen the dark dungeon comic refered to... Oh dear god in heaven- (see, i'm praying now) what the HELL is wrong with those people?
Witch 06-20-06, 04:26 PM	Occam's Razor wins again. Could you tell me how Occam's Razor is even slightly relevant for the explanation you gave?
Werebat troll paladin 06-20-06, 04:51 PM	Did anyone else find this funny? "warriors, magicians, dwarfs and thieves" It's like... "I'm a mechanic" "I"m a scientist" "I'm german"
DIESCUMDIE 06-20-06, 06:03 PM	There should be a dwarf class, gain ranks in singing hi ho, finding gold etc. Occams razor says whatever is the simplist is right, simplist relies on common sense, common sense is the product of social hegemonies. I.e objectivity is what your lead to believe it is. etc etc. Really as far as I can see it if your so naive as to be caught out saying you like dnd when the attitude of your superiors is against dnd then you have definetely failed a test of mental perception and fortitude. Figure out what's expected and lie, test passed. That would be a sign of mental strength. I imagine that the Israil army would have a religious flavour (because of its connection to authority and national identity), in such a situation dnd is not going to be positively viewed. Just like you wouldn't admit in the American army to being a communist. Or admitting you don't like sports etc in most armies.
Lord Ian Stark 06-20-06, 06:32 PM	Oh my god, not this again. Can we sticky this link so that people will stop posting it every few weeks? Agreed.
VrecknidjX 06-20-06, 06:46 PM	Yea! I love reading this stuff again. :) Seriously, an army needs people who will take orders, follow directions even if they don't make sense, and avoid too much thinking. No offense to anyone. I work at a military school, I help send a lot of kids to places like the Citadel, so it's not like I'm anti-military or anything. But, an army doesn't need as many creative problem solvers as it needs soldiers who will do what needs to be done. I think that it's great that a lot of guys in the army play D&D in their off time. Everybody needs a break, and there's no reason for there not to be gamers that are also servicemembers. But, if some state or agency wants to have a metric for things like clearance, or position, and playing fantasy games is in that metric, it makes sense to me. Dave
celtredleg 06-20-06, 08:37 PM	I held a secret clearance in the US army for just over 21 years. Never once, in all of the numerous things they checke out about me did RPG of any sort ever come up. My chain of command knew I played, as did a large number of other soldiers. I never experienced any discrimination over it, nor did I witness any. I cant comment on other armys, as I have not served with soldiers from many of them. I do however have a friend who plays who was a para in the british army. He has never mentioned any trouble over it. As for a bunch of these comeing through, this is the first I have seen.
Ranger REG 06-20-06, 08:43 PM	I used to live in the former USSR and practically no one's even heard of D&D. In fact, there are only about four shops there where the game can be found, no offical translation, and very few people can afford it.Wow. I didn't realize D&D is a powerful US propaganda tool. We should drop a crateload on North Korea. :P
Ranger REG 06-20-06, 08:50 PM	Well, matter of fact is I'm from Israel ans am about to get drafted to the IDF. It seems this attitude towards D&D is not all that common, at least from what I've seen. The army high-ups being what they are, though, all people who are even slightly prone to THOUGHT are suspect. My guess would be that in order to get to high ranks, you'd need to keep acting like you are a simpelton who's just a tad short of a fool. Those I've met from officer (or higher) ranks (friends, etc..) all state that free thought and hobbies in general are not approved of, until you get to high ranks, at which point you get to come clean cause you got priviliges and tasks that require thought and adaptation. A stupid, yet effective way to get qualified people. Results seem positive. IOW, they want people to eat, sleep and crap military with no distraction (other than their religion). Can't really argue with that reasoning. As the saying goes, a distracted soldier is a dead soldier. But we do have the ability to compartmentalize our hobbies and focus on the job at hand, even if the task is dull and routine.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 06-20-06, 09:31 PM	Occams razor says whatever is the simplist is right, simplist relies on common sense, common sense is the product of social hegemonies. I.e objectivity is what your lead to believe it is. etc etc.. No, it doesn't. Occam's Razor states that the explanations that posulates the least number of additional entities (Not necessarily actual beings, assumptions fit under this head as well) is the most likely to be correct.
Limousine_Liberal 06-20-06, 09:43 PM	This is a recent article about other armies, not our own US army. I have friends who were in the military that played D&D to pass the time during monsoons and such. I think our armed forces may even encourage D&D. Check out this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=9434240#post9434240) thread for the positive spin. I just got back from Iraq a few months ago. My own experience was that there were certain individuals (mainly fundamentalists or other hardline religious types, many of whom were my superiors) who frowned on my buddies' and my playing D&D in our off hours. Nothing overt though, and it was just their personal preference. I'm sure if we'd spent the time blaspheming, they'd have been similarly disapproving. In general, the Army as a whole was very accomodating in letting people pursue hobbies (within limits) in their free time.
Ranger REG 06-20-06, 09:43 PM	No, it doesn't. Occam's Razor states that the explanations that posulates the least number of additional entities (Not necessarily actual beings, assumptions fit under this head as well) is the most likely to be correct. :uh-huh: In orc language?
Vanigo 06-20-06, 09:54 PM	:uh-huh: In orc language? When you're trying to figure something out, the explanation that goes "Maybe there's A that does this" is more likely to be right than the one that goes "Maybe there's B, C, and D that do this, this, and this."
Gedrin 06-20-06, 10:06 PM	A stupid, yet effective way to get qualified people. Results seem positive.With all due respect, if it is effective, and the results are positive...I'm not really sure how it is a stupid solution.
Ranger REG 06-20-06, 10:21 PM	I think "weird" is the appropriate word over "stupid." Kinda like wearing pantyhose actually prevent you from getting chafed on your inner thigh while riding a horse ... or so according to William Shatner.
residieu 06-20-06, 11:15 PM	Oh my god, not this again. Can we sticky this link so that people will stop posting it every few weeks? If we sticky every thread you guys don't think should be brought up again, we'll have an entire front page of stickies. Better to just ignore the threads you don't want to read.
TheGreenGriffon 06-20-06, 11:39 PM	“They're detached from reality and suscepitble to influence,” If the army recruitment officer says this just get up, point and scream at him to "Roll for initiative!" then gut him with your +5 Longsword :p
ORC_Tuhteth 06-21-06, 12:33 AM	As someone mentioned earlier, this is very old news, and it does kind of walk on the line between the game and real-world politics because it involves the military of a political body. So, let's drop this one and put it in the "Wow, some people sure don't have a clue about games" file. :)