Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Captain_Madrick 02-09-08, 12:15 PM	So one of my buddies, who is a Ranger with archery, wanted to nab a baddie who was escaping by tying a rope to an arrow, shooting it into him, and yanking him back/down. Here is the problem Can you securly tie a rope to an arrow? If the rope is uncoiled on the ground, can the arrow still be fired? Do you take a minus to shooting like this, or minus to distance, or both? Will the arrow spin in flight as it needs to, or will the rope drop it immediatly? Whether or not this works in real life is one issue; how to allow it in my D&D game is another...
CryoSilver 02-09-08, 12:38 PM	A; Yes. You'd use some variation on a clove hitch. B; Probably not. Rope gets tangeled very easily, and my personal experience throwing lines from dock to boat/boat to dock has taught me that rope actually needs to be coiled in a very specific manner to avoid bunching. C; It'd be a totally ad hoc ruling, but definitely. Arrows are small and light and rope, even silk rope, is fairly heavy (1 lb per 10 feet). I'd say at least -4, possibly more. D; In real life, this would never work. In D&D, I'd allow it IF the character had a high enough strength modifer (say, 10 feet per point of Strength modifer).
anyamarie 02-09-08, 01:56 PM	i would forget about the rope and just have them use an arrow that only stuns instead of killing, but if they insist i would give them a -7. just remember this if you arr the DM this is your world and you can allow whatever you want.
CryoSilver 02-09-08, 01:59 PM	Also, an arrow designed for war likely has an armor-piercing head on it that isn't going to hold very well in flesh. The only kind of arrow I can this work ing with is a modern mechanical broadhead, which has blades that snap out once the arrow is already inside the deer/bad guy. Nasty stuff, but it might work.
Nathreet 02-09-08, 02:35 PM	A. Yes B. See D C. See D D. No, yes. Try a harpoon. An arrow is simply too light for this to work with anything but string.
1red13 02-09-08, 03:39 PM	It doesn't seem like a very practical solution. Arrows travel a long way due to their aerodynamic nature and light weight. Tie a rope sufficient to stop the weight of an escaping opponents would certainly make it impossible to fire it very far or with much accuracy at all. The farther the arrow travels the more weight there is in rope attached to the arrow. Seeing as arrows are yanked out of a humans body by hand. I'm sure with no small amount of effort. I don't think anyone can conceive of lifting a person off the ground by the arrow alone. Which essentially you would have to do for it to be succesful. Thats' not including the momentum the person would have running the opposite direction while the rope is being yanked on.
Captain_Madrick 02-09-08, 07:46 PM	Given the speed a two-legged human can run when fleeing, compared to how far a high level archer can shoot, the ranger would have time to tie the rope, dip the tip in soverign's glue, and fire before the shot was impossible. This is a spur-of the moment plan, which means a javelin would be better, but all he has is an arrow. I just feel like it's possible, just huge minuses. How about -4 for using the bow to fire something other than just an arrow, and -4 for the weight of the rope hindering the arrow in flight, making it a -8. Should I also reduce the range capability of the arrow now, say to maybe a half the bow's distance? You could top distance penalties to that -8...
anyamarie 02-09-08, 11:48 PM	Given the speed a two-legged human can run when fleeing, compared to how far a high level archer can shoot, the ranger would have time to tie the rope, dip the tip in soverign's glue, and fire before the shot was impossible. This is a spur-of the moment plan, which means a javelin would be better, but all he has is an arrow. I just feel like it's possible, just huge minuses. How about -4 for using the bow to fire something other than just an arrow, and -4 for the weight of the rope hindering the arrow in flight, making it a -8. Should I also reduce the range capability of the arrow now, say to maybe a half the bow's distance? You could top distance penalties to that -8... the group has not encountered anything that uses spears and the like? if nothing else tie the rope to piece of tree(branch or some other part) and throw it towards the running away enemy.
Captain_Madrick 02-10-08, 12:31 AM	the group has not encountered anything that uses spears and the like? if nothing else tie the rope to piece of tree(branch or some other part) and throw it towards the running away enemy. Um, that doesn't really answer my question... 1) They have encountered things that use spears and javelins, but at this level, they aren't keeping most people's weapons, especially if they're non-magical. They don't keep everything they find. So no, they don't have javelins/spears with them. 2) I don't think in a hurried situation where a bad guy is quickly escaping, there is time to try and find a random tree branch, tie a rope to it, add the glue, AND be able to throw it far enough. The guy is an archer, and he has arrows on him, which he can shoot really far. This isn't a question as to whether or not the character should take this course of action, just how one would make it work.
Disciple_of_Salsa 02-10-08, 12:59 AM	Couldn't you just cast telekinesis or something? It would be a lot easier. Also, you would probably need a harpoon.
anyamarie 02-10-08, 02:39 PM	Um, that doesn't really answer my question... 1) They have encountered things that use spears and javelins, but at this level, they aren't keeping most people's weapons, especially if they're non-magical. They don't keep everything they find. So no, they don't have javelins/spears with them. 2) I don't think in a hurried situation where a bad guy is quickly escaping, there is time to try and find a random tree branch, tie a rope to it, add the glue, AND be able to throw it far enough. The guy is an archer, and he has arrows on him, which he can shoot really far. This isn't a question as to whether or not the character should take this course of action, just how one would make it work. as a DM i let the PC's i am running do or attempt to do whatever they think they can do. of course i have a set percentage chance of the attempt succeeding, if they make the the % roll they do what they set out to do. with what you are saying this PC wants to do, i would give it a 18% chance of succeeding, of course you could also then say they have to roll to hit the target.
Edymnion 02-10-08, 05:26 PM	When things get fuzzy like this, its typically a good idea to use comparisons with other things to see if it still sounds plausible. Hemp rope weighs 10 pounds. Thats the same weight as a morningstar AND a light mace put together. For the arrow to fly, it has to lift all of that rope off the ground. Now, take your mental picture of someone firing a bow. Now take that arrow, and tie a morningstar and a light mace to it. Do you think the archer is going to be able to fire that arrow very far? No, of course not. Now, it wouldn't just fall out the end of the bow, because the weight it's pulling is proportional to the distance traveled (the farther it goes, the more rope it pulls up, the heavier the load). I might let something like this work for 10', maybe 15'. Firing an arrow to get a rope across a chasm or something like that. The rest of the scenario is extremely unlikely to happen though. For starters, just because you shoot someone with an arrow and they take hp damage does *NOT* mean they actually have an arrow sticking out of them. A closer comparison is that it was a near miss that used up some of their luck, made them a little more tired from dodging, etc. I would not rule that the arrow actually stuck in them unless it took them down to, say, less than 1/10th their normal hp. And even then, if you pulled on the arrow, common sense will tell you that you just pull the arrow out, not that it pulls the entire person. Again, use a similar example to see if you think its plausable. After battle, say the archer stabs a body with an arrow. Can he then pick the entire body up and carry it around with that arrow as a handle? No, of course not, he would just pull the arrow back out. So why should it be any different when the guy is still alive and kicking? For that matter, lets just assume that, by some absolute miracle of God everything lined up right and you could fire that rope arrow and have it anchor in well enough to do what you want it to do. You can't pull on the same round you shoot. Anybody with half a brain cell thats standing on top of a cliff or stairs or anything like that that gets shot with an arrow with a rope attatched to it is going to go "Oh crap, they're going to pull me off!" and either pull the arrow out themselves, or snap it in half so the tied end falls away. So, on the targets action, he just pulls the arrow out and the tactic fails. Only way you could prevent that is to have someone with a readied action to pull on the rope as soon as it hit, and at that point, you've got two people burning actions for all of this, which in combat is a waste of actions. So no, it would never happen. It would be next to impossible to get an arrow fired out of a bow to carry a 10 pound weight in the first place. Even if you could, it would be highly unlikely for the arrow to hit and stick in the first place. If it did, it would be next to impossible to pull on that arrow and pull the entire person along with it, without simply pulling out the arrow. And just to finish it off, the target would assuredly pull out/sunder the arrow before you had a chance to pull. Honestly, the odds are better that the villain will realize the error of his ways and go off to spread happiness and candy to the townsfolk than it is that this stunt would ever work.
High Octane 02-10-08, 10:44 PM	I seem to recall there being a grappling hook launcher which was basically a heavy crossbow. I know it existed in 3.0, dunno about 3.5. Practically, this won't work with a bow and arrow, since as stated before, rope is heavy, arrows are light. Does that mean the very concept has to be abandoned? HELL NO! Thats what we have magic for. It is easy to imagine an arrow that is magically created to shoot into the side of a building and drop a rope that could be climbed. I imagine an arrow like that to be functional and cheap to make in mass. Or perhaps, barring magical creation, some sort of alchemical arrow could instead fly into the side of a building, exploding into adhesive and dangling a long thin rope. They make minor magic items and alchemical items so those cool ideas that almost would work otherwise DO WORK.
Orenmir 02-11-08, 12:15 AM	@ the OP -- It will never work. The rope must be strong enough to not break when reeling the target in. Let's say it's silk rope. Let's say the target is 50' away. That means 50' of rope needs to be in mid air being pulled by the arrow. 50' of silk rope weighs 5 pounds. Imagine what adding a 5 pound weight to an arrow would do.
PenderGrass 02-11-08, 02:25 AM	This isn't a question as to whether or not the character should take this course of action, just how one would make it work. Given what you have listed, I doubt he could make it work. Just yanking on the rope would likely wrench the arrow from the target's body (other people have already covered this). So he would need a special arrow that latches onto the target - maybe even magical? Most rope - even spidersilk rope out of the PHB - would impair the range of the arrow, severely. So he would need to overcome this by creating a vastly lighter type of rope - maybe some sort of magical help? So, I guess one could make it work with some serious magic - none of which you have indicated him having access to on such a short-notice or intense situation. Given time and resources, though, he could be prepared for the next time this type of situation arises. :dragon: *****
DM-Scott 02-11-08, 02:47 AM	And this is why the soldiers in Disney's Mulan were awesome, and had the greatest arrows in the history of fictional-history! They shot an arrow, with a rope tied to it, a looooong way, to be grabbed by someone riding a horse, through the snow, in an avalanche, and then...then my boys and girls... They PULLED 2 people, 1 horse, a tiny dragon, and a fine cricket UP through a SNOW SLIDE, with NO SUPPORT, with just the strength of the rope and the ARROW they were using to hold onto it with... We're not going to let some cross-dressing Disney character outdo our 12th level rangers are we!? I didn't think so! (PS: I actually love that movie, and this thread reminded me of it. :P)
Captain_Madrick 02-11-08, 03:27 AM	You've all made perfect sense, and I think I'd agree, the arrow just wouldn't stick in. I believe firing the arrow with the extra weight would just add a huge minus (that's what minuses are for) and if you can try it, there is mechanics for it. But yes, the arrow wouldn't stick... of course in a fantasy scenario, and this last guy running who I, as the DM, doesn't care if he lives or dies, I would allow the arrow to stick if the PC made the shot. Just for flavor. Thanks for the help guys!!
Mock26 02-11-08, 03:55 AM	Even if you could get the arrow to fly and fly straight (rope is very heavy in regards to attaching it to the arrow) you'd have to tie a very specific knot in order for it not to slip when you reeled them in. And, any knot that you use would deflect the arrow as it passes over the arrow rest. This would incur a nice penalty while you were shooting the bow. As a former archery instructor I'd say that this is a highly improbable shot. I would still allow the characters to try it, though (just as I would allow them to try and dig through solid granite with a leather shoe). I would give a range of 5' per point of strength of the archer, have a -4 penalty to hit due to the knot on the rope (-2 for silk rope, which would be thinner), and require the person tying the rope to have Use Rope and assing a DC of 15. But, there is a very important factor that has to be calculated in, and that would be the time it would take to get out the rope and tie it to the arrow. I'd make it a full round action.
Edymnion 02-11-08, 11:50 AM	I seem to recall there being a grappling hook launcher which was basically a heavy crossbow. I know it existed in 3.0, dunno about 3.5.3.5 just made a magic item out of it, the Rod of Rope (or something to that effect).
Man in the Funny Hat 02-11-08, 12:52 PM	Whether or not this works in real life is one issueGood. Because it wouldn't. This kind of thing is generally done only in movies and with spearguns - short range (it's a device meant to be used underwater so the spear does not require fletching), VERY strong cord (not rope), a projectile that is DESIGNED to be fired with the cord permanently attached to it in the first place, and generally overblowing the strength of the gun which is meant to spear FISH, not stop people. how to allow it in my D&D game is another...Use ONLY silk rope or preferrably even smaller silk cord of some kind. Unless already prepped it will take time to set up. Require 1 round to tie the cord to the arrow or crossbow bolt assuming the cord is already at hand and not in a backpack or whatever. Apply at LEAST a -2 penalty, cut the range by half or more, AND double any range penalties to reflect the weight of the cord affecting the flight. If he hits then give him a trip attack. After that, given the impromptu nature of the weapon the cord will either break, fall off the arrow, or can easily be removed or cut by the victim (if slashing weapon in hand) in addition to simply breaking off the arrow, probably all as free actions. All that is being quite generous and yet would allow the trick to work. A more permanent weapon could be devised but would require an arrow that comes with the cord pre-attached, would still be short range to retain any accuracy, would require an arrow that can't easily be broken to escape once it hits the victim, and even then the cord could be easily cut (though at this point you might be obliging and have the victim at least have to hit/sunder the cord rather than just take a free action and be loose).
PenderGrass 02-11-08, 03:31 PM	...as the DM... I would allow the arrow to stick.... And, ultimately, that is the correct course of action for your game despite anything else. Rock on. :dragon: *****
Zombie_Babies 02-11-08, 03:57 PM	The first thing that came to my mind is that the rope in question will be thicker than the arrow shaft you are attaching it to. It just won't work. Now if you want them to be able to do it, either have them use a javelin/spear or craft a magic rope for this purpose. There is a system used to track deer shot with an arrow (in rl, of course) that uses high strength monofilament. Not only will it fly true, but it will not break under the force of a deer running away with the arrow in it. Of course, you can't reel the deer in, but people bowfish with similar rigs and do reel fish in. All I'm trying to say is that you could potentially do it. Just not with the current set up. And reeling in the baddy is going to be tough, too. They're probably going to fight back, after all :).
ToastedAmphibian 02-11-08, 04:16 PM	Why not just look into the ranged pin feat? Or buy some blunt arrows and do nonleathal damage.
MOTHdevil 02-11-08, 04:49 PM	So one of my buddies, who is a Ranger with archery, wanted to nab a baddie who was escaping by tying a rope to an arrow, shooting it into him, and yanking him back/down. Here is the problem Can you securly tie a rope to an arrow? If the rope is uncoiled on the ground, can the arrow still be fired? Do you take a minus to shooting like this, or minus to distance, or both? Will the arrow spin in flight as it needs to, or will the rope drop it immediatly? Whether or not this works in real life is one issue; how to allow it in my D&D game is another... Two thoughts immediately come to mind: 1) This is on par with hacking through a castle wall via sword. Is it possible within the rules? Sure. Would your PCs want to continue living in a world where such cheese occurs? I sure wouldn't. I'd never allow it, personally. Maybe tying an arrow, but hitting and controlling a moving target? No way. 2) That's what a freakin' harpoon is for. If he wanted to stop the guy from running away, I would have suggested some sort of ranged trip action or hamstring. Much more logical. D&D is full of ad hoc creativity; that's what part of the fun is. But unless you occasionally enforce some logic, your world is going to resemble Monty Python levels of silliness. Bending physics is the providence of magic and feats.
Mondil 02-11-08, 05:17 PM	tell the ranger just to shoot the guy in the foot or lower leg, sure the Ac penalties would be pretty high but it would be much easier than the whole rope/arrow thing.
Ash2Dust 02-11-08, 06:50 PM	And this is why the soldiers in Disney's Mulan were awesome, and had the greatest arrows in the history of fictional-history! They shot an arrow, with a rope tied to it, a looooong way, to be grabbed by someone riding a horse, through the snow, in an avalanche, and then...then my boys and girls... They PULLED 2 people, 1 horse, a tiny dragon, and a fine cricket UP through a SNOW SLIDE, with NO SUPPORT, with just the strength of the rope and the ARROW they were using to hold onto it with... We're not going to let some cross-dressing Disney character outdo our 12th level rangers are we!? I didn't think so! (PS: I actually love that movie, and this thread reminded me of it. :P) This lines up with my way of thinking very well. I don't know about everyone else, but I prefer cool to realistic. When presented with something like this, I would prefer - rather than saying "How would this look in real life?" - to say "How would this look in a movie?" How many times have we seen this scenario in a movie? Heroes need to get across a chasm and quick, but the bridge is out. Archer ties a rope to an arrow and fires it across the chasm. Arrow lodges itself in a tree or the ground on opposite side of the chasm. Archer ties free end of rope to rock or tree. Heroes cross chasm on rope. Heroes cut rope on other side so bad guys can't follow easily. Seriously, there's so many reasons why that would not work. The arrow wouldn't fly. The arrow wouldn't have enough force to penetrate a surface. The arrowhead wouldn't keep the arrow lodged in the surface under the weight of the heroes. Do we enjoy it, anyway? Yeah! That's why they keep using that trope in the movies! As far as how it would work, I'd say half the range increment, make an attack as normal. If the attack manages to do non-magical damage, the arrow's in. Then maybe roll a percentile or a save or something to see if the arrow stays in when the ranger pulls. EDIT: Hmm, I might use a Fort save from the opponent versus a use rope check by the person who tied the rope to the arrow to see if it stays when pulled. Only problem is tying a knot is a full round action, so unless you already have one ready, the guy'll probably get away before you get the shot off.
CryoSilver 02-11-08, 09:50 PM	I remember reaidng in her "Majesty's Wizard" by Christopher Stasheff (sp?) about this scenario. The main character had summoned Robin Hood, and they needed to cross a pit, or pull a door open, or something, so Robin used an iron arrow to do it, which sort of dealswith the weight issue a bit. I'm fairly sure it was only being fired 20 feet or so, plus, you know, it's the original legendary archer.
Zombie_Babies 02-12-08, 10:24 AM	Whether it could happen or not aside, what's to stop the sword-wielding baddy from just chopping the rope? Are we to suppose that the archer in question can tie the not, shoot the target and then "Get over here!" ala Scorpion? I know I'd just cut the friggin rope and take off runnin' again. Of course, the magic rope thing could take care of this, too. Some sort of enchanted admantine filament, mayhap? If you want the coolness factor of the archer being able to bowfish for baddies just make a magic bow or arrow for this purpose and then find a mechanic to see who wins the ensuing tug of war. But, again, with the situation given and standard equipment I would rule this as impossible.
DebiHuman 02-12-08, 07:09 PM	This is a simple Use Rope skill. Assign a DC to attach a rope, the DC of the rope to not get tangled and the DC for the rope to successfully yank the bad guy backwards. You could simplify this by making a single DC to the Use Rope skill as well. The appropriate answer to whenever a player wants to know if his character can do something or can figure something out is to simply have it default to a skill or an ability and an appropriate DC. If it's very easy DC 5, if average DC 10 and if hard DC 15 and if very hard DC 20. Attaching a rope to an arrow -- very easy DC 5 (can even take 10) Making sure the rope is coiled correctly -- average DC 10 Firing an arrow with the rope (no DC check, if it hits assume he's successful) Yanking the bad guy back with the rope: special see below. [If the rope isn't attached to anything it will just go whizzing by and if it is attached then the item better be heavier than the bad guy or DC 20 for the yank]. If the rope is attached to a huge rock or something the DC would be lower than if another person were holding the end (DC 10 most likely] The idea is to make this stuff as easy on the DM as possible and to keep play from bogging down. Easy stuff: DC 5 Average stuff: DC 10 Moderately Difficult: DC 15 Hard: DC 20 Very Hard: DC 25. Debby
McPoyo 02-14-08, 10:14 AM	Use Twine, from the Arms and Equipment guide, since it specifically states it's as strong as rope when stretched. Weighs practically nothing too :P Wouldn't work in real life, but it works As Written for this :P
Philtheswed 02-15-08, 09:46 PM	And this is why the soldiers in Disney's Mulan were awesome, and had the greatest arrows in the history of fictional-history! They shot an arrow, with a rope tied to it, a looooong way, to be grabbed by someone riding a horse, through the snow, in an avalanche, and then...then my boys and girls... They PULLED 2 people, 1 horse, a tiny dragon, and a fine cricket UP through a SNOW SLIDE, with NO SUPPORT, with just the strength of the rope and the ARROW they were using to hold onto it with... We're not going to let some cross-dressing Disney character outdo our 12th level rangers are we!? I didn't think so! (PS: I actually love that movie, and this thread reminded me of it. :P) Sounds like someone rolled a 20 then confirmed it umm errr twice ( and someone cast wish) yeah that might do it
Tibs 02-28-08, 07:48 PM	This may be after the fact, but (in the future) has your friend considered simply using the rope to lasso the baddie? I mean, I don't know the rules for it or anything, but it seems to me that a ranged touch attack followed by a successful Use Rope check should be enough to snare him; follow-up with an opposed strength check (or maybe opposed grapples...or maybe his strength check versus the bad guy's balance....) to put him down, and we've avoided the whole issue of whether or not an arrow can fire a rope. Just sayin'.
Captain_Madrick 02-29-08, 12:35 PM	A good suggestion, but he was an ranger who was playing his archer in a style of Robin Hood or Green Arrow; doing things with a bow that are impossible. Things that could not happen in real life, but can when you are "the greatest archer anyone knows". I do like the lasso idea...my party once used it on a dragon in flight :P