Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ferris1971 06-13-07, 03:59 PM	Last year at GenCon they had a booth set up where a party of 4 20th level characters could take on a Gargantuan Black Dragon or a Colossul Red Dragon. We are talking about doing that tonight for a break from the regular campaign and are using their pre-made characters. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060929a I want to do the Warblade, but... I think the build they give is impossible. Arzimon's 9th level maneuvers are: War Masters Charge Feral Death Blow Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Mountain Tomb Strike Strike of Perfect Clarity Time Stands Still That's (even with the obvious misprint for Mountain Tomb Strike) about 19 maneuvers in pre-requisites before you are able to take all 6 of those. Warblade 15/Mo9 5 only has 19 total without any feats, and there aren't enough feat left after getting into Mo9 to be able to get all those maneuvers. Am I missing something?
Tempest Stormwind 06-13-07, 04:36 PM	You're not accounting for maneuver rotation, and the fact that you only need to know the prerequisite maneuvers when learning the maneuver in question, not to use the maneuver in question. Thus, he could have learned six Shadow Hand maneuvers (the last being 5SCIES) and then rotated some of them out for other maneuvers and their prerequisites. Granted, I haven't tried building him myself... so there's a chance you're right anyway...
ferris1971 06-13-07, 05:00 PM	You're not accounting for maneuver rotation, and the fact that you only need to know the prerequisite maneuvers when learning the maneuver in question, not to use the maneuver in question. Thus, he could have learned six Shadow Hand maneuvers (the last being 5SCIES) and then rotated some of them out for other maneuvers and their prerequisites. Granted, I haven't tried building him myself... so there's a chance you're right anyway... That rotation thing doesn't come into play because by the time you are taking 9th level maneuvers, you are in the Mo9 PrC. Mo9 doesnt say anything about rotating out maneuvers like it does in the main classes. Again... am I missing something?
Puggins 06-13-07, 05:03 PM	I was thinking about this too, but we're talking about >6< 9th level maneuvers, with a total of 21 prerequisites, giving you a total of 27 maneuvers. Since the first time you can take a 9th level maneuver is 17th level, you can rotate out a maximum of 3 maneuvers by 20th level, so you'd have 22 pre-req slots available with shuffling. Add in the fact that MotN has an absolute ton of pre-req feats and I don't see how this is legal.
Puggins 06-13-07, 05:06 PM	Incidentally, I've been looking for a reference where its stated that you can still use the maneuver if you no longer meet the pre-reqs. I can definitely live with that rule, but that usually isn't the case- you can't use a Feat if you no longer meet the pre-req, for example. Did I miss where they stated it explicitly?
Tempest Stormwind 06-13-07, 06:40 PM	Incidentally, I've been looking for a reference where its stated that you can still use the maneuver if you no longer meet the pre-reqs. I can definitely live with that rule, but that usually isn't the case- you can't use a Feat if you no longer meet the pre-req, for example. Did I miss where they stated it explicitly? It isn't needed to be stated. It defines the prerequisite ONLY when learning a power. It never mentions it anywhere else. Thus you only need to meet the prereq to LEARN the maneuver, not USE it. Warblade 15 / Mo9 5 has 20 maneuvers known (and can change out 6 maneuvers depending on how he times his levels) with 6 required feats. 2 of those feats are available as warblade bonus feats (which he'll have 3 of by the time he's level 15). Arzimon is human, meaning he's got 8 feat slots independent of his class -- this means he's got 11 feats left to spend, potentially on Martial Studies. Furthermore, no one says he's taking all of his Mo9 levels at the end of his build, nor are they taking them all at once. By interspacing warblade levels 8, 10, 12, and 14 with Mo9 levels or delaying them until later, he can exchange prereq maneuvers he learned from his Mo9 levels. This may very well be what he did with Shadow Hand. I *think* this is possible. I'll try to replicate the build later tonight.
aelryinth 06-13-07, 10:48 PM	Keep in mind that the PC's for that grand battle are extremely one dimensional. There's no preparation for fighting a Dragon. There's a blasting archmage who doesn't have Orb spells, and is actually using Meteor Swarms against creatures with high Magic Resistance (he has to roll a Caster check with almost every spell). He's actually just a freaking ranged blaster...which is pretty stupid for someone with a 32 Int taking on a Dragon that is going to resist half his spells and make his save every time unless a 1 is rolled...not even Walls of Force to put in front of the Dragon's Mouth when it lets off a Quickened Breath weapon altered to lighting and bounce the damn thing back at the thing... There's no way to dispel the spells the Dragon has on it...or even counter them, really. The Melees don't have Free Action, which is insane against Dragons that size. While everyone has +5 weapons, none of them have Dragonbane. As For Arzimon...yeah, it's hard to imagine him actually being a legal character, but, what are you going to do? I find it interesting about the Shadow Strike...what kind of warrior wouldn't keep the Shadow Hand teleport manuvers. And I heartily doubt he could pay for the Shadow manuvers with his warblade levels OR his Mo9 levels. Maybe it would be possible...but eh. I also dislike the way they completely tossed low level spells out. I guessed the designer missed the utility of Enlarge spells on the melees...or True Strikes for his ranged touch attacks. ===Aelryinth