Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Evenglare 08-09-06, 07:05 AM	How does one play without miniatures? I mean, i honestly want to try to run a game without them. But i can simply not concieve within my mind how one would do this without losing track of everything . Can someone give me some guidelines, hints / tips on how one does such a thing, without getting into countless arguements about "I was there !" type of things.
nameless_one_86 08-09-06, 07:15 AM	It's easy. I have been DMing for last 3 years and any attempts to play using miniatures have failed miserably. You need to be able to imagine and describe situation and that's it.
Montyhaul 08-09-06, 07:28 AM	I have loadsa miniatures, and believed I needed them to run the game 'properly' after reading the books, but I was wrong! On some occasions we deign to run a combat without setting up the board, - everything got done so much faster. Combat takes a stupid amount of time when everyone painstakingly counts squares to avoid AAO's. Forget the models! And, if in doubt of scale, rule in the favour of the PCs.
Ut-Napishtim 08-09-06, 07:43 AM	When I first started running games the only miniatures were lead ones you had to paint yourself so I never bothered with them. Even back then it was neccesary to have some sort of graphic representation with some combats though. Something that displays where everyone is can actually help if you don't get bogged down in counting squares and such. Of course the miniatures rules then weren't as detailed as they are now. I'd either use dice as proxies on a clear spot of the table to show where everyone was, or sketch it out on a piece of paper. Years later I got into Warhamer and such and actually learned how to paint miniatures. Now I've got lots of them and use them all the time. Although I still don't have players counting out squares and moving around in straight lines. Using wargaming terrain I set up a visually appealing but functionally simple representation that works great. As was mentioned distances are somewhat harder to gauge accurately, but if you keep it on the fly and err on the side of the players things go smoothly. :twocents:
Evenglare 08-09-06, 07:45 AM	Yeah, see i used to use the grid and junk, but now i just go with an outline of the room, and the minuatures just kinda wing it on distance. And it works pretty good. I was just wondering about tips and stuff on NOT using them, Cause im honestly curious.
big_bluto 08-09-06, 07:53 AM	Try using bits of paper - nominate one of the players to map as you go - and get them to give rough represenatations on the bit of paper as to who is where. It's as mentioned above though - it's more down to the imagination than the mechanics of the game. Saying "I dropkick the Gnoll through the pub window" when you can see it is there on the map is all fine and well, but asking the DM 'If I dropkick the Gnoll, would he go through a window?' and then receiving the responding grin with 'of course not - he's standing right in front of a roaring log fire' from the DM makes it quite fun!!
razorboy 08-09-06, 07:59 AM	I prefer to play without miniatures, and only bring them out when the players are in for a particularly big fight. When a fight only involves one or two or even three opponents, the only things you have to keep track of are: 1) How far are the players from the enemy? 2) Can they reach the enemy, and can the enemy reach them, and how many rounds it would take? 3) Are the players flanking the enemy, or the enemy flanking the players? 4) Is the enemy in range of the players' spells and arrows and vice versa? Once you have these things kept firmly in your mind, running an encounter becomes ridiculously easy. Most spells have a very long range, or require the caster to be in melee, so spells are easy. One does not have to figure out where to place that fireball since you can just position it on top of the enemy, or have the player simply say - I position the Fireball so that it only hits the enemy, and then you as a DM simply rule whether that's possible at all or not. AOOs happen mostly commonly because of moving, and because of casting. If every caster casts defensively, the second source of AOO goes away (and mercilessly taking those AOOs on your players will quickly teach them to always cast defensively). Resolving moving AOOs are likewise easy if you only have a few enemies in the encounter, and it becomes easier for players to simply say "I try to move in without provoking AOOs" and have you say whether or not it's possible or not, instead of players painstakingly counting the squares every time they move. Furthermore, without using a battlemat and exact scale and miniatures, you can introduce objects into environment on the fly. If you draw out everything beforehand, and your player wanted to swing on a chandelier or a rope and attack an enemy from above, or use a table for cover, you'd be screwed if you didn't specify that there was a chandelier, or a dangling rope, or overhead balcony from which the player could leap, or a table for cover. If you do not use battlemat, you can simply say "Sure, there's a chandelier in this room" or "yes, there is a table littered with cards, bottles and chipped copper coins". I found that this approach encourages players to be creative in describing their moves and actions. This isn't my idea obviously, I borrowed it from the RPG Feng Shui but it works well in any RPG.
luthar28 08-09-06, 08:08 AM	I'm the opposite. I tried using miniatures in the past -- but I found they ruined the battle. Rather than conjuring the image in your mind, everyone focused on the miniatures. So the super-demons became just a lump of lead. I found it a very stilting experience. Where we'd have this great lead-in, then suddenly we stop and start playing a board game (which is essentially what combat is when you use miniatures). Without miniatures, you do have to play differently. You have to simplify. Line of sight...did someone jump behind something? No, then you can see him.. Concealment? Can you see them or did he just jump behind the bar? Fight from above? Unless it's something obvious then you're all on level terrain. The best tip, however, is to just try it. It's not tough at all. You'll drop a ton of rules (which won't matter anyways to the game). At it's basic level, D&D is just a form of story-telling. You'll find your players will actually help you out with this...
Krackatowa 08-09-06, 08:25 AM	I have been a DM for 16 years now and I ahve used minatures and without and I prefer the latter. It is essential to have paper gridded paper and I draw the setting for the players if it is needed. I ask the pc's their marching order an then a place the monsters in my mind of where they will be when they are not visible. I draw the monsters in and the pc with a pencil and if they move i relocate them on the diagram. It is quick and simple. you can refer to the diagram when ever there is a problem as far as distance or facing it is shown on the paper clearly. I hope this helps if you want more info let me know. I agree minatures takes away from the imagination.
Evenglare 08-09-06, 08:33 AM	So you keep the maps, and describe the maps, but do not draw the maps, and place the miniatures... I may try that next time..
Grennor_Lybos 08-09-06, 01:41 PM	I have used minis for maybe 5 of my 25 years of DMing. Sometimes I dont know how we got by back in the dark ages of gameing, but looking back I remember some of those arguments you asked about. It has a nostalgic charm for me. The arguement were never bad...usually ending with either me or my player saying "Whatever" and getting on with the game. Minis however didnt take anymore time for my group to go through combat. in fact, most of the time, it saves time with my group. Now if I am not careful things can trickle down to a board game as others here have stated, but if I make sure to describe the action in detail things arent all that different imagintively then without minis. I still only use minis when I have enough bad guys to warrent it though. A party of heros again one or two monsters is very easy to describe position and surroundings without them. If you have never played without them I would recommend trying it just to see how it works for you and your players.
kaeso 08-09-06, 02:31 PM	My group doesn't use minis, we use a white laminated grid and pieces of white square paper with the character's names on them. That way the players know their positions in combat, yet they still rely on imagination to 'see' their foes.
Elora_Gwyre 08-09-06, 02:44 PM	Everyone in my group is a newbie (except the DM), and we're major cheapskates (including the DM). Between the seven of us, we have one copy of each of the core 3 (plus the PHBII). We use a grid for battles, but our miniatures consist of nuts and bolts (add bolts to the nuts to differentiate types of foes) for most of the enemies, and we use pieces from other games to represent our PCs. If the DM forgets the nuts and bolts, we dig through our pockets for loose change. :) Imagination does the rest!
Alac Luin 08-09-06, 03:11 PM	I've only actually used anything that resembles a mini when playing spelljammer for ship to ship combat. It is easy to loose track of everything. Just as it is easy to fall down on a bike the first time you get on one. With a little practice, it can be done. This does require the improviseing of a few rules (the orc across the room closes in to engage in melee, eh, it takes him two rounds due to the room's size...) But it can work with some practice.