Post/Author/DateTime	Post
noizetrauma 12-08-05, 08:08 AM	I apologize ahead of time for the length. This is my first post here at wizards is several years. I used to come here under a different account which has long been deleted (I would assume due to inactivity). Anyway, I'm running a game this weekend. I have three players and I'm starting them out at ECL 10s. As soon as they level up, they will all be graduating to Prestige Classes. I have a Vassal of Bahamut (Fighter), a Highland Stalker (Scout) and a Platinum Knight (Sorcerer). They are LG, CG and NG, respectively. I prefer four players but I dislike playing a character while I DM so I told them I would make a 4th character to balance out the party. I'm designing him and letting the players control him. Figuring that the party would need a healer and not wanting the players to depend too much on the fourth player as a guinnea pig or sacrificial lamb, I decided to make a cleric of Ilmater with the Vow of Poverty who will aspire into a Martyred Champion of Ilmater. I've already let them in on the fact that the cleric needs to die heroically (preferably sacrifically) in the final battle before the next level-up. They're kind of excited about having to role-play a battle for a desired effect. And I'm aware that a Vassal of Bahamut, Platinum Knight and Matyred Champion of Ilmater shouldn't exist in the same realm since Bahamut is not among the FR Pantheons, but my characters have come up with a good explanation and direction for their characters' story arc so I allowed it. So the reason I bring this up here is my cleric. I decided to give him the Vow of Poverty as it would help the game along in several ways: A) The characters don't need to worry about goods/money for the character. I've already let them know that 25% of their treasure will be tithed/donated. They're fine with that. B) Having an exalted character brings in a certain element of role-playing that I encourage in my players. 2 of the 3 players aren't all that great when it comes to actual RPing, but want to try to do it more. They're used to stat-based role-playing and their idea of a good session involves many many dice rolls and very little conversation. They're looking to change that and have asked me to come up with a game which encourages role-playing. Aside from doing it in-story, I figured having a character which isn't directly theirs but they do control and has a strict code of conduct which he needs to act by will get them into the spirit of more character oriented role playing without taking away from their own character. I'm not saying exactly what I mean, but hopefully y'all get the idea. C) The third reason is the main reason I'm posting this in here. With all the dispute about a divine focus for cleric I gave this a lot of thought and came to a conclusion. At 10th level, the cleric carries only a quarterstaff. I gave him a few ranks in woodworking and decided that he has carved a crude symbol of Ilmater into the top of his quarterstaff. With what? I don't know. Sharp rocks or something. Anyway, this allows him a broader range of spells. To balance it out, however, (since they're not meant to have a divine focus, or so says the RAW) I've taken all offensive spells (Flame Strike et al) or any spell that negatively affects the opposition off the cleric's spell list. I've also stressed that he not cast any self-beneficial spells unless doing so helps the rest of the party as much, if not more than it helps himself. Spells that aid the other PC's from said opposition are ok. The reason for doing all this is that I figured having a cleric who couldn't raise dead wasn't very beneficial to the group and other spells simply make little sense. I think even a VoP cleric should be able to cast Protection from Evil. I figure once the cleric has martyred himself, he will obtain the Stigmata feat (more for role-playing than actual benefit) and, since the Martyred Champion of Ilmater uses his fists instead of weapons and the character won't be using the quarterstaff anymore, his wounds themselves will become the foci. The ranks spent on woodworking will have been effectively wasted but I'm all for doing so in the name of character. I figure the stigmatic wounds of a martyr would make a suitable focus for an Ilmater worshiping cleric. Especially one who's ascended to the become a Champion of the broken god. Once his stigmata becomes the focus, he will still be bound to non-offensive spells. So that's my idea. I guess I was just looking for a bit of feedback. Also I've yet to determine whether I will allow undead turning. As of right now, I'm leaning toward no. Thoughts? Ideas? Is this just completely stupid?
arntof 12-08-05, 09:58 AM	Sounds like a good idea. Undead turning is usually quite ok, but not always. Depends on what focus you want on the undead, I guess.
Callista 12-08-05, 01:37 PM	Good idea on choosing VoP for your kinda-DMPC. You won't have to worry about treasure distribution as much... You might just say that, "Okay, standard procedure, I'll just assume that the VoP guy donates his part of the treasure and give you whatever he doesn't donate." Which means give them 3/4 of the treasure you'd give a normal party of 4. Why not allow turning undead? He's a cleric; that's one of his class powers. I know he's your DMPC but he's still a cleric. (Well, kind of a DMPC; and you're right to refuse to actually play him; it's enough to have to run a whole world as it is). If you've decided the Stigmata work the same as a holy symbol, then I don't see why he couldn't use them to turn undead, same as any holy symbol. If you want, you could try giving him a brand or scar that looks like the holy symbol a non-VOP cleric of Ilmater would carry, maybe on his forehead or palm. I did this with an NPC of mine; except he was a Risen Martyr and not VoP. He simply didn't have any possessions other than what he was carrying when my BBEG dumped his body into a pit, and those didn't include his holy symbol, or really anything more than the clothes he was wearing at the time; so I gave him the symbol of his deity on his forehead. Seemed appropriate enough; and anyway I didn't want his holy symbol to be taken when he got recaptured by my BBEG, so it had to be something that couldn't be stolen... Eh. Long story. Point is, a holy symbol doesn't have to be something with material value. Anything that focuses a cleric's faith will do. Even a VoP cleric should have a holy symbol... I don't think it's too much to say that his stigmata can do everything a normal holy symbol can do. Besides, the PCs may need it. Playing an Exalted character isn't that different from playing a Good one. He's just a decent guy who feels happiest when he's making things easier/better/happier for other people. In a Good party, I don't think he will make trouble; but then, of course, your players are directing his actions (are you role-playing him, and having them decide what he does in battle, or how does that work?). So depending on your players, it should work out fine. And of course, Ilmater is more of a "servant" type god rather than the kind who wants to dictate what everyone does; so the most annoying part of Good clerics (the sermonizing) can probably be dispensed with altogether.
ubernex 12-08-05, 01:47 PM	Even a VoP cleric should have a holy symbol... I don't think it's too much to say that his stigmata can do everything a normal holy symbol can do. Besides, the PCs may need it. I agree. I don't see any problem with a Vow of Poverty charcter having a simple, wooden holy symbol. VoP clerics are still hindered by the fact that they in general will not be able to cast any of the divine spells requiring expensive magic components, except under very specific circumstances.
noizetrauma 12-08-05, 02:14 PM	The players are controlling the character in every way with the exception of his creation and progression. I have already set up his progression through level 20 (part of the reason is I'm using E-tools and VoP is a hassle unless you know exactly how you're going to progress the character). One of my reasons for having a PC controlled by the three PCs is cooperation. We're all good friends but one of the PC's damn near killed another one in one of the last games we played. I'm hoping to avoid that by encouraging a good campaign and giving them a shared character. My reasoning for considering the disallowance of turning undead is that it can be highly effective against undead. I don't want my PCs using the cleric as a weapon at all (though I have made it possible for him to defend himself as it would be silly to assume he'll never be attacked). Turning is a highly effective weapon against undead and therefore don't want my players using it. Besides, at higher levels (they're starting at 10) turning isn't as effective. To make up for it, I've taken divine metamagic and am taking metamagic feats so he will be able to use his turns per day, just not actually to turn. Technically the rules (and FAQ) state that they shouldn't have a divine focus at all. I've made exception for this with a strict limitation which I think more than makes up for the restriction; no offensive spells (which turning can be, especially if you look at the low level undead which will be destroyed outright). I've given him divine metamagic as a feat so his turns/day won't go to waste. I want to work within the rules as much as possible and I also think crippling the character (which I've done) makes him an interesting character to have in the party. My intent is that the party will value and cherish the character instead of using him recklessly I would think temptation might lead to if he was more powerful. By making him effectively a non-combatant, I'm hoping the party will rally around him. Underdog and whatnot. The other thing I was considering is that once he gets his stigmata, he can use offensive spells and turn undead, but at cost of the normal use of stigmata; temporary Str point loss. That would leave the option available to the players if they were in a pinch, but make them think twice about it before relying on it.
Donraj 12-08-05, 05:23 PM	And I'm aware that a Vassal of Bahamut, Platinum Knight and Matyred Champion of Ilmater shouldn't exist in the same realm since Bahamut is not among the FR Pantheons, but my characters have come up with a good explanation and direction for their characters' story arc so I allowed it. I'm pretty sure he is. Tiamat is anyway, and I can't imagine her arch-nemesis would be far behind.
Loren Pechtel 12-09-05, 12:57 AM	I gave him a few ranks in woodworking and decided that he has carved a crude symbol of Ilmater into the top of his quarterstaff. With what? I don't know. Sharp rocks or something. Anyway, this allows him a broader range of spells. To balance it out, however, (since they're not meant to have a divine focus, or so says the RAW) I've taken all offensive spells (Flame Strike et al) or any spell that negatively affects the opposition off the cleric's spell list. Just because he can't own the tools to do the carving doesn't mean he didn't at some point have access to them. There's nothing wrong with him approaching a woodcarver and offering to do some odd jobs for him in exchange for being allowed to use his workshop for long enough to do his carving. The VOP doesn't prohibit such exchanges at all. On the flip side, therefore, I don't see any need to take away as much as you have unless you have some other reason for doing so. Incidently, another solution to the holy symbol problem: Tattoo it on his chest.
noizetrauma 12-09-05, 09:01 PM	I'm aware that Tiamat is in the FR list of deities, but according to Faiths and Pantheons, Bahamut is definitely not. And I chose to take away from the cleric as much as I did because I honestly think the VoP should hinder a character quite a bit. If it were a PC's main character, I would be a bit more lenient, but since this isn't supposed to be anyone's main character, I have no problem crippling the character. I've also done it to give the character more flavor. I'm really aiming at a true martyr of sorts. It works perfect with Ilmater.
Moon-Lancer 12-09-05, 10:15 PM	I think its a awsome idea. I would let him have a wooden holy symble. After all its pritty much rubish that a claric cant have an artifact or idole of his god. I created a vop druid that has a glowing rune for a divine focus. I took ascew material to allow the rune to represent material components as well. Over all really fun to play.
noizetrauma 12-10-05, 02:52 AM	With some reconsideration, I think (since the game hasn't started quite yet) to change him to a healer core-class (from the miniature handbook) which naturally eliminates most of the aspects I was seeking to eliminate myself by imposing the hindrances on the cleric.
danielinthewolvesden 12-10-05, 01:31 PM	Likely the weakest class of all, but a perfect class for an NPC-healer-type. Good choice.
malykoth 12-10-05, 02:04 PM	I think its a awsome idea. I would let him have a wooden holy symble. After all its pritty much rubish that a claric cant have an artifact or idole of his god. I created a vop druid that has a glowing rune for a divine focus. I took ascew material to allow the rune to represent material components as well. Over all really fun to play. We came up with a feat that allows a divine spellcaster to do away with any need of a holy symbol. The idea being that since they, themselves, are so exalted, they embody everything the holy symbol is supposed to embody. And let's face it, you get something like 10 bonus exalted feat, and for most character classes, only about 5 or 6 really apply or even make sense. This way, the exalted cleric can take "Sanctified Body" (our name for it) as one of the bonus exalted.