Post/Author/DateTime	Post
seng3 06-22-05, 03:26 AM	Hi just like to know how you think of the current character progression... Below are some of my observations, please comment whether you agree or not and any suggestion, additional remarks. Thanks! As levels increases, BAB increases but AC remain constant -implies AC is irrelavant at high level? As levels increases, saving throw increases but spell DC remain constant -implies at high level, only auto failure matters.. As level increases, HP increases but spell damage got cap, melee/missile damage got cap except ranger and rogue.. -implies killing by damage will painful to the players.. What do you think?
the artful dodger 06-22-05, 03:37 AM	IMO, it implies that at very high (read: epic) levels, the game breaks down. Stay away from epic. ;)
Iron Cobra 06-22-05, 03:46 AM	Sure, how about you stay away from playing a Wizard. Or Sorceror? Hell, don't play anything I tell you to. If he wants to play it, let him. Don't curtail Epic because it's not your flavor.
Count Arioch the 28th 06-22-05, 05:15 AM	IMO, it implies that at very high (read: epic) levels, the game breaks down. Stay away from epic. ;) that's the first time I've seen someone refer to level 10+ as epic. Levels one through ten, you'll not notice any balance problems, or at the most, very slight ones. Around level 10 is where things start to get wonky.
Joe Khol 06-22-05, 05:45 AM	BAB, AC, HP and damage, along with a whole load of factors you ignore (number of attacks, magical and mundane feats and equipment, buffing spells and class abilities) need to be considered together. BAB does increase faster than AC (though AC does increase) but other ways of avoiding being hit become available. This is also balanced by the increasing HP against the slower increase in damage, though again there are other options made available to increase damage and, of course, an increasing numbers of attacks. The nature of the system does make for a different feel to the mechanics at higher levels but I don't think it ever becomes a fatal problem, even in to epic, as long as you recognise the difference at take account of it.
Tenzhi 06-22-05, 05:46 AM	What do you think? I think advancing to infinity is a bad idea. I think there should be mortal limits to skills (including attack bonus), DCs, and class advancement, and to surpass these limits one should have to ascend. I think the current Epic advancement rules are sucktacular whether or not there's an imposed limit. And furthermore, I think a number of feats that are currently listed as Epic should be available to non-epic characters.
Vaelan 06-22-05, 07:22 AM	I find your observations very biased, not to mention mostly incorrect. As levels increases, BAB increases but AC remain constant -implies AC is irrelavant at high level? In theory, wealth, and thus AC, is supposed to increase as one gains levels. Your conclusion is also incorrect, as a character can be made with enough AC to make any pre-epic opponent miss on a roll of 19. As levels increases, saving throw increases but spell DC remain constant -implies at high level, only auto failure matters.. Spell DCs do not remain constant. Spellcasting stats rise and the highest spell level available to a caster rises as well. Good saves go up by one every two levels. A spellcaster gains a new level of spells every two levels, which raises the save DC against those spells by one, in case you didn't know. As level increases, HP increases but spell damage got cap, melee/missile damage got cap except ranger and rogue.. -implies killing by damage will painful to the players.. Higher levels means new spells. New spells have higher damage caps. Melee and missile damage also rises, but not quite enough.
the artful dodger 06-22-05, 10:27 AM	If he wants to play it, let him. Don't curtail Epic because it's not your flavor. It was a suggestion, not an order, and one that's a logical conclusion from the issue he brought up at that. I don't know seng3 from Adam, what he does in his games has less effect on me than the proverbial butterfly flapping its wings and causing a tropical thunderstorm (I live nowhere near a tropical area). Let's not make this into something it isn't, ok? ;) that's the first time I've seen someone refer to level 10+ as epic. Levels one through ten, you'll not notice any balance problems, or at the most, very slight ones. Around level 10 is where things start to get wonky. I was refering to level 20+ as epic. I don't see an serious problems regarding AC, save DCs or damage caps before levels close to 20 or higher. You may have other experiences. ;)
Zherog 06-22-05, 11:20 AM	And furthermore, I think a number of feats that are currently listed as Epic should be available to non-epic characters. I completely agree with that - especially many of the "fighter" feats. Pulling some of those into earlier levels would help to make the fighter more viable at high levels.
seng3 06-22-05, 11:27 PM	BAB, AC, HP and damage, along with a whole load of factors you ignore (number of attacks, magical and mundane feats and equipment, buffing spells and class abilities) need to be considered together. BAB does increase faster than AC (though AC does increase) but other ways of avoiding being hit become available. This is also balanced by the increasing HP against the slower increase in damage, though again there are other options made available to increase damage and, of course, an increasing numbers of attacks. The nature of the system does make for a different feel to the mechanics at higher levels but I don't think it ever becomes a fatal problem, even in to epic, as long as you recognise the difference at take account of it. Hi, think I did not say it clearly.. I am refering to really high level espically over 20. Maybe 50, 100, 1000 or more... Number attack cap at 4, 8 or 9 if you got more special feats.. all the 2wp stuff and wild fighting etc but basically capped. Excep for Impr Multiple shot.. Buff spells are capped too. Damage is capped except by str and magical plus and mode on weapon, which is wealth. Str increase is every 8 level discounting feat, and every point is good for every attack you have, that is +1 dmg will increase yr damage/rd to 8pt dmg if you got 8 attacks. No of attack is capped. Every Con increase increase yr hp per level, and yr level always increases.. It even worst if you include all yr earlier HD for yr CON hp bonus... I am starting this thread to see how you see the current progression system and any opinion on it. Thanks for your input!
seng3 06-23-05, 04:57 AM	I think advancing to infinity is a bad idea. I think there should be mortal limits to skills (including attack bonus), DCs, and class advancement, and to surpass these limits one should have to ascend. I think the current Epic advancement rules are sucktacular whether or not there's an imposed limit. And furthermore, I think a number of feats that are currently listed as Epic should be available to non-epic characters. Hm.. maybe its easier to manage if there is a level limit.. I do not quite like the current Epic advancement rules too. That is why I ring up this thread.. I also agree with you regarding feats but for now, I would like to focus the discussion on progression..ie. when you level up, what happen to your stat, hp, AC, bab etc.. Feat is another BIG thing which I prefer to do it on other thread. So are spells esp epic spells. Any suggestion on alternative progression? Thanks!
seng3 06-23-05, 05:13 AM	I find your observations very biased, not to mention mostly incorrect. In theory, wealth, and thus AC, is supposed to increase as one gains levels. Your conclusion is also incorrect, as a character can be made with enough AC to make any pre-epic opponent miss on a roll of 19. Spell DCs do not remain constant. Spellcasting stats rise and the highest spell level available to a caster rises as well. Good saves go up by one every two levels. A spellcaster gains a new level of spells every two levels, which raises the save DC against those spells by one, in case you didn't know. Higher levels means new spells. New spells have higher damage caps. Melee and missile damage also rises, but not quite enough. Think I am not clear in my initial post.. My concern is on progression towards infinity.. maybe infinty is too big a figure, let jst say level 30 or 50 or even 100.. I am not sure about wealth.. any idea what is the progression of wealt? Especially epic? The cost of item plusses is the square of the bonus multiply by 10k for above +20. That is GEOMETRIC progression! Its going to get quite stagnant as level progress.. Spell level are cap at 9th. I am not so sure about epic spells.. I don wanna really discuss it except maybe.. Do you know how the DC vs caster level progression is like? I have not really touch i. Please share if you know.. Spell casting stats increase at 1/4 level, so DC increase at 1/8 level but saving throw is 1/2 level, so it will still end up with fail on 1 for saves.. Thanks!
Tenzhi 06-23-05, 05:27 AM	I have a whole slew of house rules that affect Epic advancement... Off the top of my head: I cap base skill ranks at +20 and DCs at 40. I also cap AC at 40. I allow BAB to progress as normal beyond level 20 rather than follow the universal epic progression - but I cap BAB at +20 with every point gained thereafter going towards damage (for instance, a level 22 fighter would have a BAB of +20 and receive +2 damage on attack rolls). Ability modifiers may only add up to +5 to any d20 roll other than a straight opposed ability check (because natural aptitude can only aid mortal skill so far). Enhancement bonuses on mortal weapons and armour only go to +5 - though special abilities (Defender/Vorpal/Etc.) may push the total bonus past +10 into the Epic range.
seng3 06-23-05, 05:30 AM	It was a suggestion, not an order, and one that's a logical conclusion from the issue he brought up at that. I don't know seng3 from Adam, what he does in his games has less effect on me than the proverbial butterfly flapping its wings and causing a tropical thunderstorm (I live nowhere near a tropical area). Let's not make this into something it isn't, ok? ;) I was refering to level 20+ as epic. I don't see an serious problems regarding AC, save DCs or damage caps before levels close to 20 or higher. You may have other experiences. ;) I am posting this thread to ask for suggestion. I know I can avoid the problem by avoiding high levels, but that would be my last option. I also agree that progression problem only start after epic, maybe that is why epic was hold off for a while in the beginning.. Think around level 10, the problem is more of a feat vs spell issue which deserve another thread by itself. Ya, and on eof my main concern is epic since that is the current progression for beyond level 20..
seng3 06-23-05, 05:46 AM	I have a whole slew of house rules that affect Epic advancement... Off the top of my head: I cap base skill ranks at +20 and DCs at 40. I also cap AC at 40. I allow BAB to progress as normal beyond level 20 rather than follow the universal epic progression - but I cap BAB at +20 with every point gained thereafter going towards damage (for instance, a level 22 fighter would have a BAB of +20 and receive +2 damage on attack rolls). Ability modifiers may only add up to +5 to any d20 roll other than a straight opposed ability check (because natural aptitude can only aid mortal skill so far). Enhancement bonuses on mortal weapons and armour only go to +5 - though special abilities (Defender/Vorpal/Etc.) may push the total bonus past +10 into the Epic range. What is there a need to cap skill rank? I mean I would like to know the rationale behind... Cap bab sounds like what happen in 1st Ed, AC in 1st Ed is also sort of capped due to the limit of AC bonuses around.. I am in the delima of wanting to have infinite progression and looking for a cap to put things under control now... Thanks for the input! 8)
Tenzhi 06-23-05, 05:51 AM	What is there a need to cap skill rank? I mean I would like to know the rationale behind... The same reason you cap BAB (which is essentially a skill) at +20 - there is a limit to what mortals can achieve. Though, like the damage bonus for BAB beyond 20, I've been toying with the idea of special bonuses to give to skills beyond +20. Deities would, of course, not suffer the restrictions of mortals. This means that even if levels progress infinitely, deities will always have *some* advantage over mortals.