Post/Author/DateTime	Post
John Paul Stoddard 02-03-07, 12:19 AM	:confused: :confused: Q: A human assassin sneaks into a nobleman's bedroom. Because the room is illuminated only by moonlight shining in the window, the assassin has concealment, and thus can hide. Then the nobleman enters (and fails his Spot check to notice the assassin), and the assassin prepares to strike him down with sneak attack... but wait! Doesn't the noble gain concealment from the darkness too? Doesn't that mean the assassin can't use sneak attack against him? So now what are all those poor human assassins lurking in dark alleys and bedrooms across the realms supposed to do? --Jake A: Uh, lose their jobs to the elves and tieflings who can see in shadows or darkness? You’ve correctly applied the letter of the rules to the situation. You cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment, so unless you have some ability to see normally in low-light situations, you can’t use sneak attack in the shadows. Obviously, there are plenty of solutions to this problem—from spells and magic items that grant the ability to see in the dark to simply drawing out a sunrod as your surprise round action and counting on your high initiative modifier to give you the first attack in the combat—and canny players should have little trouble finding and utilizing them.:confused: :confused: Who all agrees with this answer:confused: Can't everyone see in low-light Conditions, although not as well or as far:confused: Does the Nobleman automatically have concealment from the Darkness, He obviously is not making an attempt to "Hide In Shadows", Further more don't the rules say that you can't "Hide in Shadows" when you are already seen:confused: The Srd states: Ignoring Concealment Concealment isn’t always effective. A shadowy area or darkness doesn’t provide any concealment against an opponent with darkvision. Characters with low-light vision can see clearly for a greater distance with the same light source than other characters.
TheChilliGod 02-03-07, 12:38 AM	I think you're looking at the wrong part of the rules. Instead of going for the concealment entry, look at the entry for sneak attack. The last sentence of the Sneak Attack rogue ability clearly says that you cannot sneak attack a creature with concealment. So, the noble guy doesn't have to hide anywhere, and the rogue can probably see him fine enough to know where he is. But not enough to know where to strike in order to kill, which negates a lot of the assassin's ability to hurt stuff. Sure, the assassin can still attack the noble, but chances are the noble will live long enough to scream out and call guards or something. And that's not very contributive to the whole assassination concept, if you get my drift. :D
bonethug0108 02-03-07, 07:36 AM	My thing would be this though. After the noble falls asleep, to me it would seem the assassin would have enough time to find his soft spots, thus allowing sneak attack. But I don't think such a thing is in the rules. As a dm, I would say that successful careful study of the victim once he would remain motionless would take 3 rounds, then he would be allowed a sneak attack. So I wouldn't allow a sneak attack unless the victim somehow remained motionless, while the assassin studies him for 3 rounds and passes all his hide and move silently checks, even if the victim was awake.
bestone 02-03-07, 07:51 AM	yes, because assassins totally dont kill people in the dark!! good pointing out, as a dm, i would allow it, to me *and this doesnt have to be your opinion* it just doesnt make sense to not allow it. Maybey just give them something like %20 chance to ignore the sneak?, cause it misses, but wait....isnt that what concealment effectively does anyways?
bonethug0108 02-03-07, 08:40 AM	Yeah, that's what confused me too, the assassin not being able to kill in the dark!:eek: That's why I play with the rules(mostly on the fly) to make it more fun and realistic(at times). I hate having dm's or pc's that say, "but that's the rule, you have to do it that way." And then arguments break out for 20 mins. and when you finally continue, sometimes you don't even want to play. I say the d&d rules are more of guidelines, to half-way steal a quote from captain barbosa. I find 1,000 times more important to keep it fun than to argue over the letter of the "law". It's good to be dm.:cool:
Sarella Starshine 02-03-07, 08:50 AM	You are forgetting one important detail. By the time you get to assassin levels (even assuming you even took the PrC), you have acess to spells and magical goodies that can grant you the ability to see in darkness and not have the problems with concealment. Assassins get paid to do kill people, it should not be all that suprising that they invest some of thier money into making it easy to do so at night.
Critical_Failure 02-03-07, 08:54 AM	this can be stopped with some preparation step 1: get some wizard to cast darkvision and permanacy on you step 2: scrag the noble step 3: reap the profits
runestar 02-03-07, 09:08 AM	So every noble should never go to bed without wearing a cloak of displacement...:P
bonethug0108 02-03-07, 09:09 AM	So every noble should never go to bed without wearing a cloak of displacement...:P Well, they should be able to afford it.:D
Fairill 02-03-07, 11:38 AM	You forget something: The noble is asleep, therefore helpless, therefore the assassin can do a coup-de-gras. And unless I'm mistaken, you add your sneak-attack damage to a coup-de-gras no matter what the concealment.
Critical_Failure 02-03-07, 12:16 PM	You forget something: The noble is asleep, therefore helpless, therefore the assassin can do a coup-de-gras. And unless I'm mistaken, you add your sneak-attack damage to a coup-de-gras no matter what the concealment. but we are'nt talking about a coup de gras, we're talking about the assassin's deathb attack ability which canonly be used during a normal sneak attack
stargate525 02-03-07, 12:23 PM	You are forgetting one important detail. By the time you get to assassin levels (even assuming you even took the PrC), you have acess to spells and magical goodies that can grant you the ability to see in darkness and not have the problems with concealment. Assassins get paid to do kill people, it should not be all that suprising that they invest some of thier money into making it easy to do so at night. You're forgetting another important detail. Any player can call his character an assassin without actually having levels in the prestige class.
Arrowhen 02-03-07, 12:28 PM	You forget something: The noble is asleep, therefore helpless, therefore the assassin can do a coup-de-gras. And unless I'm mistaken, you add your sneak-attack damage to a coup-de-gras no matter what the concealment. You are correct. Helpless Defenders A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy. Regular Attack A helpless character takes a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks, but no penalty to AC against ranged attacks. A helpless defender can’t use any Dexterity bonus to AC. In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to AC as if it were -5 (and a rogue can sneak attack him). Normally, a sleeping character can be sneak attacked. But a sleeping character with Concealment can't. Having established that we can't sneak attack the sleeping noble, what about coup de grace? Coup de Grace As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target. You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. [b]You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to "find" the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace). Note that a coup de grace isn't a melee attack, it's a full round action that culminates in an automatic critical hit. Furthermore, the rogue is specifically given her sneak attack damage in addition to the automatic hit + critical. This is important, because normally sneak attack damage is added to an attack. Since a coup de grace isn't an attack, she wouldn't be given the extra damage without this specific provision. A coup de grace can be delivered to a creature with concealment. According to the sneak attack rules, "A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment." But in the case of coup de grace, the rogue is not "sneak attacking", she's getting her sneak attack damage added to the automatic hit + critical. Thus, the rules which determine when a rogue can sneak attack do not apply. So long as the conditions for coup de grace are met, sneak attack damage is added.
High Octane 02-03-07, 12:32 PM	this can be stopped with some preparation step 1: get some wizard to cast darkvision and permanacy on you step 2: scrag the noble step 3: reap the profits Step 3 is ALWAYS profit!
Arrowhen 02-03-07, 12:33 PM	but we are'nt talking about a coup de gras, we're talking about the assassin's deathb attack ability which canonly be used during a normal sneak attack Actually, the assassin's death attack must be used during a normal sneak attack... Death Attack If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin’s choice). While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy. If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin’s class level + the assassin’s Int modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the assassin. If the victim’s saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the assassin has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds. You study the victim for three rounds, attempt a normal sneak attack, and, if successful, have a chance to kill or paralyze the victim in addition to damage dealt by the attack.
Critical_Failure 02-03-07, 12:45 PM	Actually, the assassin's death attack must be used during a normal sneak attack... That's exactly what i was saying
John Paul Stoddard 02-03-07, 01:07 PM	I think the Original Question was pertaining to A Noble entering a room Dimly lit a still standing/walking when the attack was to occur not In bed........although a "smart assasin" would want to wait to get an attack while they were sleeping... I don't think that the Lighting situation would disallow a sneak attack because there is not total darkness. Obviously The assasin can see somewhat, even moonlight will provide enough light to see and move around. The Nobleman is making no attempt to use Concelment, he is unaware of the assasin therefore would be flatfooted on the surprise attack and be subject to the sneak attack.
fatal error 02-03-07, 01:19 PM	Hmmm, so what type of action should removing your hand from under your cloak be? Containing a Sunrod, of course. I wouldn't think it would be more than a swift (the rod is already activated, and in your hand). Thus, you could whip out the Sunrod and take your surprise action Death Attack too.
Sarella Starshine 02-03-07, 01:52 PM	You're forgetting another important detail. Any player can call his character an assassin without actually having levels in the prestige class. hince the reason i have this modifer to my statement: By the time you get to assassin levels (even assuming you even took the PrC), But, seeing how the debate here is about how the assassin class abilty works and how sneak attack works in dark shadowy bedrooms with sleeping nobles, the few exceptions that are either NOT rogues or in the assassin PrC are not even subject to this debate :). And even then, it does not render my statement following that any less true.
Arrowhen 02-03-07, 02:27 PM	That's exactly what i was saying My bad. I read your "canonly" as "cannot".
Arrowhen 02-03-07, 02:42 PM	I don't think that the Lighting situation would disallow a sneak attack because there is not total darkness. Obviously The assasin can see somewhat, even moonlight will provide enough light to see and move around. Total darkness provides total concealment; shadowy illumination provides concealment, which in enough to prevent sneak attacks. The Nobleman is making no attempt to use Concelment, he is unaware of the assasin therefore would be flatfooted on the surprise attack and be subject to the sneak attack. You don't have to use concealment, you just have to be in an environment which provides it. If the room was lit, the unaware nobleman would be subject to the sneak attack for the reasons you mentioned, but the concealment afforded by the poor lighting prevents it.