Post/Author/DateTime	Post
celestialkin 01-20-08, 02:35 PM	First off let me say that I understand that a DoMT is universally considered a game breaker. In my case I am attempting to run a much more fun and role-playing oriented game, so I feel that I might be in a better position to deal with the consequences. Anyways, around what level would be bets to give a party the deck? Would finding it in their mid-levels make it likelier that they will survive the bad cards, while at the same time make the benefits less game breaking? Also, they are currently in their low levels (2-3). Would properly using the deck allow me to "skip" them ahead if I wanted to? As always thanks in advance!
Seeker95 01-20-08, 04:58 PM	DoMT is not inherently a game breaker. However, it is often a game-changer. A DM initroduces it into his or her game at the peril of having the game change in a way that s/he is not prepared for. It should be introduced only if you do not care what the consequence may be. The effects are 100% random, and as likely to remove a character from the game entirely as to add a power level that makes a character dwarf the rest of the party. Both of these are relatively small chances. But the impact variability is wider even than that of introducing a wish. At least *that* spell has a pre-defined boundary. DoMT works when it works. And it *can* be a game breaker. That its impact is 100% outside the DM's hands when the DM introduces it is what makes it not worth the risk, in my opinion. As such, there is no "right level" any more than there is a "wrong level".
celestialkin 01-20-08, 05:05 PM	DoMT is not inherently a game breaker. However, it is often a game-changer. A DM initroduces it into his or her game at the peril of having the game change in a way that s/he is not prepared for. It should be introduced only if you do not care what the consequence may be. The effects are 100% random, and as likely to remove a character from the game entirely as to add a power level that makes a character dwarf the rest of the party. Both of these are relatively small chances. But the impact variability is wider even than that of introducing a wish. At least *that* spell has a pre-defined boundary. DoMT works when it works. And it *can* be a game breaker. That its impact is 100% outside the DM's hands when the DM introduces it is what makes it not worth the risk, in my opinion. As such, there is no "right level" any more than there is a "wrong level". Thank you for the advice Seeker95. You are always here to give good advice to us here. I always appreciate that, even if you are sometimes "Reasonably Disagreeable". :) In this case I think I'll introduce it in a level or two. I personally like the idea of it being able to change the game while said changes being completely out of my hands. This might even give me as the DM something unexpected and unscripted I would have to work with. I just hope I have the skills to make things work out in a fun positive way in the end.
archerpwr 01-20-08, 05:28 PM	I'd delay until around level 17. At that point the game is already breaking down and the PCs have access to wish and miracle to solve some of the problems DoMT brings.
Otto the Bugbear 01-20-08, 05:33 PM	Right now. You say they're around level 2-3, so this is when you should introduce The Deck. It'll change your game irrevocably, so it's best to get it out of the way right now. Those that don't die from The Deck will be powered up. Those that do die get to make new characters at the power level of the survivors. Better to do it now than to wait months and months for them to really get attached to their characters.
Slimgauge 01-20-08, 06:43 PM	I'm currently in a group where most characters are lvl 11 +/- 1 level. We've got a DoMT, but we're certain it's not a standard deck. It's somehow connected to the Goddess of Chance, to the point that Augurys and Divinations regarding the deck flat out fail every time. Three of the party are lawful good worshipers of Heironius. Drawing from the deck seems a chaotic thing to do, rather than a lawful thing, so absent a divination that says our god's ok with it, we're not going to touch it. Maybe we're just chicken, but the bad things that can happen seem over the top compared to the good (in a standard deck, no telling what this one has in it). The neutral greedy member of the party suggested the real way to use such a deck is to sell draws from it to those able to afford it, or offer draws to those who can't afford it for half of any positive outcome (negative outcomes the drawer is stuck with).
Tovec 01-20-08, 06:54 PM	I think it depends on Which deck of many things and how you use it but I have introduced a party to the deck at levels from 1 to 21+. I think its about the ability of the player to roll and role play with whatever they draw. If you are really concerned about outcome take a look over the deck and disallow specific cards from being drawn. Also consider that if a character should draw the 10 000xp they should only advance 1 level max. A 1st level character suddenly jumping to 2nd level doesn't really unhinge anything. Another valid question to ask yourself is Why have them draw from the deck? Is it for DM or player amusement or is it to dramatically change the game? If you feel its appropriate and want them to draw a card even if they don't want to then set it up as some kind of test or challenge. Also, it never hurts to have an NPC draw a card first, gaining favourable results, to attract the players. Sidenote: I suggest banning them the ability to carry the deck around or to use magic on the deck (such as divination to determine results). My groups have tried selling, determining the outcome, using the cards as traps, and more.
VulcanStormwrath 01-20-08, 07:08 PM	Buy scroll of Wish. Wish to draw only beneficial cards Draw the full number alotted. If a single one of your players is clever enough to come up with this, do not EVER introduce the deck to your game.
ArcTan 01-20-08, 07:18 PM	Buy scroll of Wish. Wish to draw only beneficial cards Draw the full number alotted. If a single one of your players is clever enough to come up with this, do not EVER introduce the deck to your game. Why? This is clearly a power *far* outside the boundaries of the wish spell as listed, and as such will clearly either not be granted or be twisted around. (Remember that you're wishing to *interfere with the powers of an artifact*. Not cool. Leads to bad things.) A more plausible way to cheat the deck is augury. By RAW, there is no reason augury would not work if you cast it before every card to see whether you should draw (although when it comes up "Woe", there's nothing you can do except not draw cards). Of course, a DM who's going to use the deck at all is probably going to rule that the deck's magic prevents this. ...I just wouldn't use the deck at all. Its powers don't really make sense, they clash with the feel of the game (especially the ones that grant free levels or take levels away), and they're clearly written for a jokey, free-for-all environment.
Jaxgaret 01-20-08, 08:30 PM	Why not just skip to the chase and give them a Deck of Ten Things: The Void, Talons, Skull, Ruin, Rogue, Idiot, Fool, Flames, Euryale, and Donjon.
sblaxman 01-21-08, 03:44 PM	I would never use the domt as written, I just make my own if I want to do it (tone it WAY down... get rid of instant death or instant power-up).... make most effects minor, a few major non-game-breaking (a single wish at best).... And wish would have noooo (repeat no) effect on a Domt.... it's not that powerful a spell (though you could wish a card effect undone after the fact perhaps)
Trench-Raider 01-21-08, 04:04 PM	Three words: Never. Never. Never. TR
Kala2000 01-21-08, 05:21 PM	Three words: Never. Never. Never. TR +1
Teydyn 01-21-08, 06:49 PM	Never. Never. Never. QFT. Besides, celestialkin, could you change your sig? Its hurting my eyes and i really dont care how you feel about 4e...
celestialkin 01-21-08, 06:55 PM	QFT. Besides, celestialkin, could you change your sig? Its hurting my eyes and i really dont care how you feel about 4e... Honestly, you just made me want to make it bigger. :D
Seeker95 01-21-08, 06:58 PM	celestialkin, could you change your sig?He has a sig? I haven't seen a signature or an avatar on these Forums for a little over a year. It is amazing ho much less frustrating my experience is than what others describe when they admit they have sigs and avatars turned on. :D
MacrossSD 01-23-08, 06:50 PM	DoMT works when it works. And it *can* be a game breaker. That its impact is 100% outside the DM's hands when the DM introduces it is what makes it not worth the risk, in my opinion. As such, there is no "right level" any more than there is a "wrong level". I actually DM'd a game where it worked. The PCs found a DoMT in the old Ravenloft module, and proceeded to use it (now, one thing being said, I had misread the stats for the DoMT and thought that unless it said otherwise, the PCs could only draw one card each and none thereafter.) One PC got a nifty magical item, another got four wishes (which he altruistically used to restore level damage to some of the other characters who had been severely mauled by wights -- it took two wishes to do it though, as the first time, he explicitly said that the level damage came from wraiths, to which I said "they weren't wraiths, two wishes expended") and another one got all his magic items taken away.
Sinfire Titan 01-23-08, 07:21 PM	After 17th. Usually, a good level for it is 25th, when it will cause the least amount of damage.
Mock26 01-23-08, 07:23 PM	The level of the characters in the group doesn't matter as much as the level of the maturity of the group. If you and your players are mature enough to handle some of the "horrific" outcomes from the Deck of Many Things then go ahead and put one in. But, you need to bear in mind that this magic item can break a campaign quicker than you can regret putting it into your game. You also have to bear in mind that at higher levels the characters can be more capable to handle and/or overcome the negative card draws. I think that a DM needs to think long and hard before inserting this item and he has to consider why. If the reason is because it is a "cool item" then, in my opinion, the DM shouldn't put it in. The only way I will put the item into any of my campaigns is if I have worked it in as being an integral part of plot. I think that what makes this item so potentially dangerous to your campaign is that it is, in my opinion, the ultimate metagame item. This item, in my experience, always taps into the greed of the player, not the character. I think that most reasonably intelligent characters who had knowledge of this item would NOT draw from it because the potential gain falls so far short of the potential loss. That is why I personally think that a game can never truly be ruined by the deck. It is ruined by the players using the deck. But, since the deck is the tool, no deck means no ruination. As to when (or even whether or not you should include it) to put this item into your game, only you can make that decision. What I will do, though, is to suggest that you think long and hard as to why you would want to put this particular item into your game, and also think long and hard about how each and every one of your players would respond to each and every possible draw from the deck. If you think they can handle it then give it a try. But, be prepared for your game to get broken and be prepared for you players to hate you. Everything might be fine, but prepare for the worst.
Edymnion 01-23-08, 08:36 PM	A more plausible way to cheat the deck is augury. By RAW, there is no reason augury would not work if you cast it before every card to see whether you should draw (although when it comes up "Woe", there's nothing you can do except not draw cards). Of course, a DM who's going to use the deck at all is probably going to rule that the deck's magic prevents this.Slight correction to this, as the deck makes you decide how many you draw before you start drawing. The way to make Augury work is that you ask "What if I draw 1 card?". As long as it says Weal, cast it again and ask "What if I draw 2 cards?", repeat as long as it keeps saying Weal. When it says Woe or Weal and Woe, you know how far into the deck you can safely draw, announce you are drawing that many cards, and there you go. Counter arguments that people normally give to this (I should know, I'm the one that started this, so I've heard 'em all) include: Objection: Oh, its an artifact, low level magic can't do that! Answer: Show me anywhere in the rules where it says it can't. Nowhere does it say that artifacts are immune to divination magic in general, and nowhere in the deck description does it say the deck is specifically immune. If you want to house rule it that way, thats fine, and probably a good idea, but the rules don't support you. Objection: The deck randomizes itself after every draw, how would the DM know what card will come up before he shuffles it? Answer: The DM shuffles, looks at the top card and writes it down. Shuffle the deck, look at the next card, write it down. The DM now knows what cards the character would have drawn, and can answer truthfully. Objection: Augury says you can't ask it the same question twice! Answer: The effects of drawing two cards from the deck are vastly different from the effects of drawing only one card. Hence, the actions have very different outcomes, hence they count as different questions. Its no different than casting Augury to see if you should go through the door on the left, or the door on the right. If you don't want this used, just don't let them use it, don't neuter the spell. Objection: You have to declare how many cards you're going to draw before you draw them! Answer: True, when you start drawing, you have to state that. But you are not required to preform the action to use Augury to figure out if the result of said action is good or bad. Objection: Either good or bad could come from drawing from the deck, so it should always return Weal and Woe. Answer: The question gets specifically worded for drawing a certain amount of cards, not drawing from the deck in general. If you want to go this route, then asking "Should I open the door on the left", that is rigged with a save or die spell trap should return "Weal and Woe", because three rooms past the door is some treasure. Again, if you're going to dissallow this, just dissallow it, don't go neutering the spell. As for the original question, lvl 17 is when I would put in a DoMT. Not because of undoing the effects of the deck, but because thats when the PCs should start fighting things with access to 9th level spells. The best use for a DoMT is to simply stick it in your gear and carry it around. Its an artifact, which means carrying it gives you almost blanket immunity to Disjunctions. Nobody is going to throw a Disjunction without first checking if the target is safe, because they're not going to risk burning themselves out. The deck would radiate as an artifact, meaning they won't throw a disjunction at you. If they do, well, you've got a chance of winning the encounter without lifting a finger as they turn themselves into 20th level commoners. Anybody stupid enough to draw from the deck deserves what they get. :)
Mock26 01-23-08, 08:45 PM	Since it is an artifact I don't allow augury to work on the deck of many things (and other artifacts). In my game all artifacts, to a certain degree, are divinely "touched." It is part of what makes them artifacts. And, since augury is a divine spell the gods and goddesses choose not to answer questions about the item. This is not a standard rule, just my interpretation of the rules and my bits of houseruling on it. I also believe that using augury defeats the spirt of the game when it comes to the purpose of the deck of many things, which is to potentially bring great change into the lives of the characters.
Edymnion 01-23-08, 09:36 PM	Since it is an artifact I don't allow augury to work on the deck of many things (and other artifacts). In my game all artifacts, to a certain degree, are divinely "touched." It is part of what makes them artifacts. And, since augury is a divine spell the gods and goddesses choose not to answer questions about the item. This is not a standard rule, just my interpretation of the rules and my bits of houseruling on it. I also believe that using augury defeats the spirt of the game when it comes to the purpose of the deck of many things, which is to potentially bring great change into the lives of the characters.But don't forget, the deck is a lesser artifact. Which, while powerful, simply means that normal characters don't know how to make them anymore. You get into epic levels, and one of your characters could craft a DoMT.
Mock26 01-23-08, 10:30 PM	You get into epic levels, and one of your characters could craft a DoMT. Not in my game! :D In my games all artifacts are leftovers from previous ages and the skill to create them is lost forever to mere mortals, even epic level mortals.
Sinfire Titan 01-23-08, 10:58 PM	QFT. Besides, celestialkin, could you change your sig? Its hurting my eyes and i really dont care how you feel about 4e... You do know there is an option to turn off everyone's sigs unless you view their page, right?
celestialkin 01-23-08, 11:59 PM	But don't forget, the deck is a lesser artifact. Which, while powerful, simply means that normal characters don't know how to make them anymore. You get into epic levels, and one of your characters could craft a DoMT. Really? I was always under the impression that all artifacts were impossible to craft (which I never liked). Is this official canon/rules? Is it in the Epic Level Handbook?
Mock26 01-24-08, 12:02 AM	Really? I was always under the impression that all artifacts were impossible to craft (which I never liked). Which is exactly why every version of D&D has had Rule 0 (even if it wasn't known by that term).
Slimgauge 01-24-08, 12:24 PM	The best use for a DoMT is to simply stick it in your gear and carry it around. Its an artifact, which means carrying it gives you almost blanket immunity to Disjunctions. Nobody is going to throw a Disjunction without first checking if the target is safe, because they're not going to risk burning themselves out. The deck would radiate as an artifact, meaning they won't throw a disjunction at you. If they do, well, you've got a chance of winning the encounter without lifting a finger as they turn themselves into 20th level commoners. So that's why my character is carrying it around. I thought it was as a last resort hold-out. As in the rest of the party's dead, all the magic healing is spent, the character's disabled, and the ogres are bashing the door down. Time to draw from the deck and hope for the wishes ...
Edymnion 01-24-08, 12:32 PM	So that's why my character is carrying it around. I thought it was as a last resort hold-out. As in the rest of the party's dead, all the magic healing is spent, the character's disabled, and the ogres are bashing the door down. Time to draw from the deck and hope for the wishes ...I said best, not only.
Zombie_Babies 01-24-08, 12:49 PM	We actually had a game where the DoMT was fun and caused no game breaking happenings. The DM had set up a huge party at our favorite hang out. There were all kinds of neat things to see and do. One booth had a DoMT. There was no cost to draw and a lot of people were doing it. We all did as well. We drew everything from the magic weapons to the Void. We had that uber dread wraith thingy run around and turn some people into wraiths (including the player that drew it). You could even get back in line and try it again! Why was this so fun, you ask? The effects only lasted an hour so even if you were stripped of your soul the only real problem was that you missed an hour of debauchery. No biggie. It was a great idea and that party was one of the coolest things I have been involved with in D&D. It's a great way to "use" the DoMT without actually having the game suck because of it. We also used it once or twice in a more "real" way as well. Those times invariably ended up being much less fun.
Slimgauge 01-24-08, 01:24 PM	I said best, not only. My post was not intended as sarcasm. Let me re-phrase. Thank you for pointing out a better reason for my character doing what he's already doing. I'll remember to point out to my DM that I'm carrying it if/when he gets out the disjunction.
Escef 01-24-08, 02:57 PM	Besides, celestialkin, could you change your sig? Its hurting my eyes and i really dont care how you feel about 4e... I chose to give him a not-so-subtle hint. As for the DoMT... Give it to them when you're ready for it. I've seen it cut both ways. A (very) good DM can turn almost any result from the DoMT into a plot hook or adventure. An unprepared DM will watch the campaign go to ruin.