Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lyinginbedmon 07-16-05, 09:26 PM	A friend of mine posted this on another board: Three Words: Critical Threat Range A longsword has a Crit Thread Range of 19-20. That is a 10% to make a critical hit. A scimitar has a Crit Threat Range of 18-20, or 15% to make a critical hit. 5% may not seem like a large difference, but when coupled with the Improved Critical feat or the keen ability, this disparity is amplified. A +1 keen longsword has a Crit Threat Range of 17-20, or 20%. This is 1 in 5 attacks. A +1 keen scimitar has a Crit Threat Range of 15-20, or 30%. This is 1 in 3 attacks. Now if you really want a powergaming character, you pump your dexterity and go with a two-weapon fighter, who at first uses a scimitar and kukri (both have 18-20/x2). As soon as possible, you start taking levels in the Dervish prestige class while continuing to pump your Dexterity any way possible, because you will need Dex 25 by 21st level. Once you have 10 levels in Dervish, you resume your progression as a fighter up to epic level. At level 20, your character will +18/+13/+8/+3 with one weapon and +18/+13/+8 with his other. Furthermore, because of his Dervish levels, the scimitar is now a light weapon for him. If he's smart, he has acquired a pair of +1 speed keen scimitars, thus adding an attack each round with each weapon and doubling their threat range. Also, using Thousand Cuts ability, the character can make two full attack actions in a round. At this point, that is +19/+19/+14/+9/+4 and +19/+19/+14/+9 twice in one round, for a total of 18 attacks. Now to really drive home the point, at 21st level, the Fighter/Dervish takes the epic feat Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting and gains another offhand attack. So now his attacks look like this: +19/+19/+14/+9/+4 and +19/+19/+14/+9/+4. With the Thousand Cuts ability, he can attack with all 10 attacks twice in the same round. That is 20 attacks in a round! Now lets get back to the critical threat range question: Statistically, how many critical hits should occur on average in such a situation? 6. Six critical hits in a round. The best a dual-wielding fighter with a pair of longswords could manage would be 2, assuming two +1 keen longswords. Perhaps more concrete terms should be used. Damage. The scimitar senario would yield 6 x 2d6 (average: 28) extra damage, but the longsword senario would only yield 2 x 2d8 (average: 18) extra damage. I realize this is an extreme example, looking at the maximum a player can accomplish in a single round, but nerf it down to a normal character and then think of how many rounds you play in a game. It adds up. Really, the only place a scimitar would lack is when you need that massive hit to overcome damage reduction, but 2 points isn't killer when you have a significantly higher chance of dealing double damage. Original post (http://www.dndresources.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1483&view=findpost&p=23597) I was just wondering if this combination is in fact possible and legal
Lord Ian Stark 07-16-05, 11:30 PM	The way I look at it. If your playing in a tricked out Epic game, then you better have some skill or you will surely fall. I have yet to play in an "Epic" game as our battle rounds take long enough when we are in the teen levels. Again our group doesn't powergame and play god-like characters. However what he posted is possible if that doubling your attacks a round works for off-hand attacks too.
J Milburn 07-18-05, 07:21 AM	There is nohing wrong with it in terms of the rules as far a i can see, no. However, the criticals would not add 2dx EXTRA, as there is already one of those dice in the normal damage pool. A scimitar fighter loses to an extent at lower levels. If you are into epic and powergaming, go for it.
Phrennzy 07-18-05, 10:21 AM	Furthermore, because of his Dervish levels, the scimitar is now a light weapon for him. If he's smart, he has acquired a pair of +1 speed keen scimitars, thus adding an attack each round with each weapon and doubling their threat range. Also, using Thousand Cuts ability, the character can make two full attack actions in a round. Hey look, another reason I only use the core books!
jokotoko 07-18-05, 10:27 AM	"At level 20, your character will +18/+13/+8/+3 with one weapon and +18/+13/+8 with his other. Furthermore, because of his Dervish levels, the scimitar is now a light weapon for him. If he's smart, he has acquired a pair of +1 speed keen scimitars, thus adding an attack each round with each weapon and doubling their threat range. Also, using Thousand Cuts ability, the character can make two full attack actions in a round. At this point, that is +19/+19/+14/+9/+4 and +19/+19/+14/+9 twice in one round, for a total of 18 attacks." As far as I know, using two speed weapons will not give you 2 extra attacks, but only 1. From the SRD: Speed: When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.) Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Price +3 bonus. I would rule that the bolded section would also apply to more than 1 speed weapon.
celtredleg 07-18-05, 10:42 AM	True, but that only trims the one off-hand attack, and its second use as well. Seems like a nasty combo, and I have a player moving towards dervish.
Reinforcements 07-18-05, 11:06 AM	Yes, you sure can get an awful lot of attacks with the Dervish (although as I recall, Thousand Cuts is 1/day, isn't it?). Also, it isn't quite as good as it sounds. Remember, that's not six critical hits, it's merely six critical threats, and maybe not even that many, as it's possible that one or more of those would-be threats misses.
Joe Khol 07-18-05, 11:14 AM	Lyinginbedmon, Your friend appears to be making the mistake of assuming a critical threat is a critical hit. You also have to 'hit' with the confirmation roll of course. He's also ignoring the chance of normal misses. At that level, he'll typically need a decent attack roll to hit of +14, a good one to hit on +9 and a miracle to hit on +4 (also a problem with critical confirmation rolls mentioned above). There are also a whole load of ways to avoid critical hits, especially at high levels. There are other, probably better, ways to do silly damage at Epic levels. This one is largely legal and perfectly legitimate. It's nothing special though.
memememe173 07-18-05, 01:36 PM	I'll stick to dropping mountains on people.
Someone 07-19-05, 02:38 AM	A player had a dervish shaping up much as you described in the last campaign. And there was something that always gave him trouble: monsters with DR he couldn't bypass. Sure, he could use power attack, but that meant more of his attacks would miss. Of course, Dervish + TWF + Great Cleave makes a mockery of horde challenges.
lexabear 07-20-05, 03:59 PM	Although this is possible (though the hits would be slightly less, as someone else has already pointed out the iffiness of allowing multiple speed weapons), it's not as great as it sounds on paper. I recently played a high-level dervish (rogue/fighter/shadowdancer/dervish to be exact, great combo), and it's a powerful ability under certain conditions. But when undead and crit-immune armor are rampant, all your wonderful crits turn into underpowered normal blows. Plus, remember that at higher ACs, your crit range isn't as big as it should be because you'll need to roll high into it to even hit. As someone else mentioned, too, the dervish's thousand cuts ability is once/day. So yes, you may get 20 attacks once a day, but your party wizard will be casting maximized disintigrates too.