Attacks of opporwhat? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Attacks of opporwhat? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
bestone
02-20-07, 12:58 AM Can you, or can you not, sunder on an attack of opportunity

i've been in a dozen forums, the awnser is highly debated
is there anything official? what say you guys
Tyler Do'Urden
02-20-07, 01:24 AM There's nothing preventing you from using a special attack on an attack of opportunity, even if that special attack also provokes an attack of opportunity.

However, many people houserule it for simplicity's sake.
bestone
02-20-07, 01:27 AM I've heard arguments (tho i disagree) that since sunder is listed under standard actions in the combat actions table, its a standard action and thus cant be used in an aoo.

I said if you read sunder it says you replace a melee attack, since you can use a melee attack on an attack of opportunity, i figured you could use that melee attack to sunder.

But apparently, im told that since its a standard action, the text of what it does only applies when it can be used, which is during a standard action
StoneStokes
02-20-07, 01:31 AM Can you, or can you not, sunder on an attack of opportunity

i've been in a dozen forums, the awnser is highly debated
is there anything official? what say you guys

From the SRD:

Sunder
You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding.

Making an Attack of Opportunity
An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack...

Yes.
StoneStokes
02-20-07, 01:32 AM I've heard arguments (tho i disagree) that since sunder is listed under standard actions in the combat actions table, its a standard action and thus cant be used in an aoo.

I said if you read sunder it says you replace a melee attack, since you can use a melee attack on an attack of opportunity, i figured you could use that melee attack to sunder.

But apparently, im told that since its a standard action, the text of what it does only applies when it can be used, which is during a standard action

By that argument, a melee attack may not be used as an attack of opportunity (it is the first thing listed in the table to which you refer). What then can one use as an AoO?
bestone
02-20-07, 01:33 AM From the SRD:
Yes.

This is exactly what i thought, but the table lists it as a standard action, heres a quote

Oh, I agree - that's exactly what it says, in the description of the Sunder action. Which description can only apply if you're actually taking the Sunder action.

So what happens when you take the Sunder standard action? You look in the text, and you find that (when you take the Sunder standard action) you can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeonig weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding.

On the other hand, if you aren't taking the Sunder standard action, the text found in the description of said action is irrelevant; if you aren't taking the Sunder standard action, you can't use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeonig weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding.
j_gunder
02-20-07, 01:35 AM There's a chart on the d20SRD that lists the "substitutes" for a melee attack when making an attack of opportunity. It lists grapple, trip and disarm...but not sunder. This is misleading, though, as the text for sunder states:

You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding.

I wonder if the PHB text is any different...I'll look it up tonight. I would say that just because it's not on that chart doesn't mean you can't do it...and the text for sunder (in my opinion) makes it clear that you should be able to substitute a sunder for an attack on an AoO. After all, if you can grapple/trip/disarm with an AoO, why not sunder?
StoneStokes
02-20-07, 01:35 AM Who are you quoting here, and which side of the debate are they supporting?
Kojiro James
02-20-07, 01:39 AM This is exactly what i thought, but the table lists it as a standard action, heres a quote

Hey... here's a bit of info... a melee attack, a single melee attack, is in fact... dare I say it? A STANDARD ACTION! The mere argument that you can't use sunder on an AoO because it's a standard action is purely ridiculous for that reason. It would argue that you couldn't even attack during an AoO which is quite obviously contradictory and thus not the case.
StoneStokes
02-20-07, 01:39 AM There's a chart on the d20SRD that lists the "substitutes" for a melee attack when making an attack of opportunity. It lists grapple, trip and disarm...but not sunder...

Where is this chart? I couldn't find it.
bestone
02-20-07, 01:43 AM I dont know if im allowed to post off site forum links, but it was from a discussion in another forum. I just figured you guys would know better so came here for clerification.

Heres the thread (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=188645)

if im doing wrong by posting it please let me know so i can remove it

its only one page, and mostly at the bottom
StoneStokes
02-20-07, 01:59 AM The other person in that other forum was mistaken (on a number of points).
j_gunder
02-20-07, 03:35 AM I was quoting the d20 SRD there. The chart is at the bottom of the SRD section about "Miscellaneous Combat Actions." It's not on both SRDs though (I know of two major ones)...I don't think posting the link is kosher.

I throw my lot in with Koji...it seems pretty clear that the intention of the rules is to allow a sunder on an AoO.
CharlieRock
02-20-07, 03:57 AM Sunder: You can attempt to sunder an object as a melee attack. You usually use the attack or full attack action for a sunder, but you also can sunder as an attack of opportunity.

from: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050705a

So stop http://www.mojoradiolive.com/chat/images/smilies/11c6356842fdb3a86598aed73332835c.gif
StoneStokes
02-20-07, 04:21 AM from: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050705a

So stop http://www.mojoradiolive.com/chat/images/smilies/11c6356842fdb3a86598aed73332835c.gif

Awesome! :cool:
drakkonflye
02-20-07, 02:32 PM Charlierock, love that "smiley"....
Where'd you find THAT one?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bestone 02-20-07, 12:58 AM	Can you, or can you not, sunder on an attack of opportunity i've been in a dozen forums, the awnser is highly debated is there anything official? what say you guys
Tyler Do'Urden 02-20-07, 01:24 AM	There's nothing preventing you from using a special attack on an attack of opportunity, even if that special attack also provokes an attack of opportunity. However, many people houserule it for simplicity's sake.
bestone 02-20-07, 01:27 AM	I've heard arguments (tho i disagree) that since sunder is listed under standard actions in the combat actions table, its a standard action and thus cant be used in an aoo. I said if you read sunder it says you replace a melee attack, since you can use a melee attack on an attack of opportunity, i figured you could use that melee attack to sunder. But apparently, im told that since its a standard action, the text of what it does only applies when it can be used, which is during a standard action
StoneStokes 02-20-07, 01:31 AM	Can you, or can you not, sunder on an attack of opportunity i've been in a dozen forums, the awnser is highly debated is there anything official? what say you guys From the SRD: Sunder You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding. Making an Attack of Opportunity An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack... Yes.
StoneStokes 02-20-07, 01:32 AM	I've heard arguments (tho i disagree) that since sunder is listed under standard actions in the combat actions table, its a standard action and thus cant be used in an aoo. I said if you read sunder it says you replace a melee attack, since you can use a melee attack on an attack of opportunity, i figured you could use that melee attack to sunder. But apparently, im told that since its a standard action, the text of what it does only applies when it can be used, which is during a standard action By that argument, a melee attack may not be used as an attack of opportunity (it is the first thing listed in the table to which you refer). What then can one use as an AoO?
bestone 02-20-07, 01:33 AM	From the SRD: Yes. This is exactly what i thought, but the table lists it as a standard action, heres a quote Oh, I agree - that's exactly what it says, in the description of the Sunder action. Which description can only apply if you're actually taking the Sunder action. So what happens when you take the Sunder standard action? You look in the text, and you find that (when you take the Sunder standard action) you can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeonig weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding. On the other hand, if you aren't taking the Sunder standard action, the text found in the description of said action is irrelevant; if you aren't taking the Sunder standard action, you can't use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeonig weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding.
j_gunder 02-20-07, 01:35 AM	There's a chart on the d20SRD that lists the "substitutes" for a melee attack when making an attack of opportunity. It lists grapple, trip and disarm...but not sunder. This is misleading, though, as the text for sunder states: You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding. I wonder if the PHB text is any different...I'll look it up tonight. I would say that just because it's not on that chart doesn't mean you can't do it...and the text for sunder (in my opinion) makes it clear that you should be able to substitute a sunder for an attack on an AoO. After all, if you can grapple/trip/disarm with an AoO, why not sunder?
StoneStokes 02-20-07, 01:35 AM	Who are you quoting here, and which side of the debate are they supporting?
Kojiro James 02-20-07, 01:39 AM	This is exactly what i thought, but the table lists it as a standard action, heres a quote Hey... here's a bit of info... a melee attack, a single melee attack, is in fact... dare I say it? A STANDARD ACTION! The mere argument that you can't use sunder on an AoO because it's a standard action is purely ridiculous for that reason. It would argue that you couldn't even attack during an AoO which is quite obviously contradictory and thus not the case.
StoneStokes 02-20-07, 01:39 AM	There's a chart on the d20SRD that lists the "substitutes" for a melee attack when making an attack of opportunity. It lists grapple, trip and disarm...but not sunder... Where is this chart? I couldn't find it.
bestone 02-20-07, 01:43 AM	I dont know if im allowed to post off site forum links, but it was from a discussion in another forum. I just figured you guys would know better so came here for clerification. Heres the thread (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=188645) if im doing wrong by posting it please let me know so i can remove it its only one page, and mostly at the bottom
StoneStokes 02-20-07, 01:59 AM	The other person in that other forum was mistaken (on a number of points).
j_gunder 02-20-07, 03:35 AM	I was quoting the d20 SRD there. The chart is at the bottom of the SRD section about "Miscellaneous Combat Actions." It's not on both SRDs though (I know of two major ones)...I don't think posting the link is kosher. I throw my lot in with Koji...it seems pretty clear that the intention of the rules is to allow a sunder on an AoO.
CharlieRock 02-20-07, 03:57 AM	Sunder: You can attempt to sunder an object as a melee attack. You usually use the attack or full attack action for a sunder, but you also can sunder as an attack of opportunity. from: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050705a So stop http://www.mojoradiolive.com/chat/images/smilies/11c6356842fdb3a86598aed73332835c.gif
StoneStokes 02-20-07, 04:21 AM	from: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050705a So stop http://www.mojoradiolive.com/chat/images/smilies/11c6356842fdb3a86598aed73332835c.gif Awesome! :cool:
drakkonflye 02-20-07, 02:32 PM	Charlierock, love that "smiley".... Where'd you find THAT one?