Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shanga the half-elf bard 06-16-05, 02:15 AM	Are you a christian gamer if so will you answer some questions I have. 1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before?
Eliza_Stormwhisper 06-16-05, 02:22 AM	Are you a christian gamer if so will you answer some questions I have. 1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? 1. Yes. I can differentiate between make-believe and real life. 2. No. 3. No. It's a game. 4. Most extremists like them I don't like.
Janusunaj 06-16-05, 02:26 AM	Deities to me are scientificaly explainable beings like the Q in Star Trek. So is magic. Basicaly there is no actual witchcraft in my games. I take the game only seriously as a game.
weasel fierce 06-16-05, 02:38 AM	Im not a believer of any kind, but I have several friends of different faiths, who are, and none of them ever had any sort of moral qualms about playing D&D or another roleplaying game. I think they'd feel awkward about a game that used real life mythos though. One of my good friends wont play Demon the Fallen for example, though she has no problem with Vampire or Werewolf. As for attacks on gaming, the vast majority is typical media hogwash, trying to find scapegoats so people dont have to admit they were ****** parents.
GDwarf 06-16-05, 07:11 AM	Are you a christian gamer if so will you answer some questions I have. 1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? 1. Yes and no. My Character can follow a Deity, but that does not mean I do. Playing DnD is like acting, yet I don't see any of those people calling for the Death of all actors who play Prospero (The Wizard in the play The Tempest) 2. I have never heard of anyone turning to Wizardry or any other such occult thing due to DnD. The people who claim this will happen state that "It is the will to do magic that causes one to follow it." (Approx. Quote from a very anti-DnD site). I find that to be stupid and ignorant. Once again, the player and character are separate. Besides, it's not as if DnD removes your choice or free will and forces you to worship demons or some such. 3. Yes and no. It is more then a board game or a video game, but ti's not more then acting in a play. That is, really, what you are doing, you are acting out a fictional character, you are not actually pretending that you yourself are doing these things. 4. I have yet to see any Christian attackers who can support their claims. They don't provide statistics, and most of their arguments collapse when you point out that DnD does not force you to do anything, you still have free will, playing DnD does not change your world views any more then talking to these people normally would, and it does not promote occult worship, despite the fact that it's more immersive then, say, Monopoly, it is still only a game that you act out. This is actually a fairly large topic, both sides of the issue slander and libel the other sides, people make claims to simply get publicity, and being a Hypocrite seems essential (It still annoys me that people attack the Freeman Article (Pro DnD) and then do the exact same things they accuse him of doing). Let me put it this way though, I've been reading DnD/ Playing the video games for close on a year now and I still have my soul, and I don't intend to lose it any time soon. Edit: Also, as said above, a lot of it is Media Hype. There was one parent who sparked it all claiming that their son committed Suicide due to DnD. Well, it turned out that he had been doing well in his DnD game, and had expressed suicidal feelings weeks before he committed suicide and his parents ignored them. They were simply looking for a scapegoat for their terrible parenting, and DnD was an easy target. Second Edit: by William Schnoebelen, who writes articles for Jack Chick, probably the most anti-DnD person around, Has at least 2 anti-DnD articles about how it is occult. I find it interesting that he claims to be skilled in most forms of wiccan culture and that he thanks God for his ability to follow both the divine and occult paths at the same time, if that doesn't clue you off, his one goal in life is to anger people, as shown by his articles that attack DnD Players and claim that teens have no free will. And the fact that he claims to follow two mutually-opposed Religions. I would ignore everything he writes/says.
TecronMaas 06-16-05, 07:28 AM	Are you a christian gamer if so will you answer some questions I have. 1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? 1. Yes- It's a game and I'm playing a character. 2. Yes- I'm sure it has happened but I really doubt D+D was the cause. 3. Yes- I think everything in it is real. :D J/K I think I'm missing something on this question who would answer yes exactly? 4. They are entitled to thier own opinions and given some of the propaganda out there about D+D I can understand them.
Thorak 06-16-05, 07:38 AM	Are you a christian gamer if so will you answer some questions I have. 1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? Of course I do. It's not like I actually believe in them. Claiming you can't use other deities is like saying you can't study Greek myth, if you're Christian. Which is asinine, to be frank. Nothing about D&D suggests it is anything other than an amusing fiction. 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? I have heard of it, but only from people who have enough trouble distinguishing reality from fantasy that they had issues with question #1. And those people are either ignorant as to what D&D is, or borderline insane. 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? I take it more seriously than most games. But that's a personal thing; I take it seriously the same way someone on their high school football team takes football seriously. It doesn't make it not a game. Just one I take seriously. 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? Frankly, I feel that they need to read the Bible they like to thump. These types always forget two very important passages (and, while I'm going to quote them, I'm not preaching; these maxims work for even non-Christians as ethical principles); Matthew 7:1; "Judge not, that you be not judged." And everything that follows. And; Romans 12:9-21. Some choice lines; "Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly.", "Vengeance is mine, I will repay", says the Lord." In short; leave bad people alone or help them. It is God's job, not yours, to deal with them. The New Testament's pretty clear on this; don't be attacking others unless you're perfect, and if you're perfect, you won't be attacking others. The Bible itself calls these people hypocrites and derides their actions. Christianity would be a much better religion if its followers took the time to read the bloody book.
Egres 06-16-05, 07:47 AM	Flask of acid: ready.
Raven Dark 06-16-05, 07:55 AM	Are you a christian gamer if so will you answer some questions I have. 1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? 0. Yes I am a Christian and proud of it. 1. Yes. It's simply easier to work with. We tend not to put too much focus on the dieties though. They are used primarily for character history, explanation of clerical powers, campaign motivators, etc. 2. I personally know a former Satanist who's old cult drew him in with D&D (and a hot sexy girl). 3. I don't, but I have many Christian and non-Christian friends who do overreact out-of-game at certain ingame events. 4. I wish they would base their arguments off more factual evidence rather than just using the media to make a big hype. If they did, there most likely wouldn't be so much bad press on the game. All questions were dutifully answered with a straight face and all answers are both honest and serious.
Kevtar 06-16-05, 08:15 AM	Are you a christian gamer if so will you answer some questions I have. 1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? Note: I say "you" during this as a non-specific descriptor. 1. Yes. This is fiction. It's just like writing a book or attending a film or a play. My question is, if you're a sports fan, or a music fan, do you have posters of your favorite athlete/performer on your walls? Do you listen to their music everday? Do you read about them at every opportunity? Now, compare this to how often people read their scriptures, listen to holy music, or pray. I believe people should be less concerned with dnd players who, for a few hours a week, sit around with friends and create ficitious stories of heroism and bravery, and be more concerned with the deification of pop-stars, athletes, and other real-world figures. 2. I have never heard of a cult originating from dnd. Actually, I have heard people like Jack Chick (I think that's his name) and other like him claim this will happen, but have yet to see it. 3. It is something to pass the time. With that in mind, do sports fan's take their respective sports as just a game? I've known plenty of Christian men and women miss church on sunday because of a football game. Please ask them, "do they take their game more seriously than a game?" 4. My feelings towards Christians who criticize dnd players are mixed. I feel pity and frustration. Personally, I have not found any person who can present a plausible argument against dnd. Unfortunately, most opponents of dnd use erroneous information in their arguments and do not submit themselves to reason. The attitude is generally, "I don't want to listen to you, BUT you need to listen to me." This said, I hold no malice towards anyone. We are just trying to get along and hopefully do what is right. I just hope that, in the process, we can learn a little bit along the way. The main point I am trying to make is that commandment #3 "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." isn't only about "deities." It is about anything that we allow to come between us and God. This can be money, celebrities, sports, or a game. It is all in how you prioritize your life.
The Man from Uncle 06-16-05, 08:36 AM	The Christian based religions necessitate a transcendental suspension of the rational and ethical (Abraham-Isaac). This can lead otherwise good people to having negative feelings towards harmless past-times (as well as a whole host of other things). This is not something that we as humans can over come. It is a necessary part of our condition. It is not even entirely bad. This passion that allows us to suspend our normative values is often a source of motivation more powerful than any other. At the very least it should be studied.
Illion the Red 06-16-05, 08:42 AM	Are you a christian gamer if so will you answer some questions I have. 1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? 1. Of course. It's a game. The deities in the game are no more real than Captain Kirk. 2. Nope. But then I've never herad of an occult originating from anything. I have heard of cults forming around charismatic individuals, but that has nothing to do with ANY game. It has more to do with psychology than occult. 3. You're kidding, right? It's a game. I take it about as seriously as monopoly. 4. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how wrong it may be. I have never climbed Mount Everest, but I have the opinion that it would be a great achievement. I have never strapped 30 kg of explosives around my waist and walked into a resturant to set it off and kill everyone inside including mysefl, but my opinion is that it's a real bad thing to do. You don't have to have experienced something to have formed an opinion on it.
-Shade- 06-16-05, 10:25 AM	Are you a christian gamer if so will you answer some questions I have. 1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? 1). Yes. In fact, in my campaign I made a few of my own. Doesn't mean i'm doing idol worship. To me, these dieties are characters, just like NPC's or PC's. I feel no more need to worship them than I need to worship Gandalf. 2). I've heard of D&D being used as a recruitment tool or a manipulative in occult activities, but as for D&D being the source... many argue yes but the reality is that D&D is nothing more than a tool to these groups. Their beliefs do not stem from D&D, but the game does give them an excuse to enforce their beliefs. One must take caution around people like that. They're nuts. 3). About as seriously as one of my favorite passtimes. It fulfills the same needs for me as say... a bunch of guys getting together for poker night, or watching the big game. It's something I do for enjoyment. Doesn't mean it is all encompassing. 4). To them I ask, "Have you ever read Lord of the Rings?" I try to guage their reaction to D&D by asking that question first. Because if they deride D&D due to its 'evils', then I think it is nothing more than Christian dogma taking too much of a grip on them. Therefore, I ask about something less harmless and more accepted, such as Lord of the Rings. For the most part, their reaction to LOTR is positive. Then I tell them that D&D is like that. D&D is just a game, a story, where heroes and villains fight it out. Very much like Lord of the Rings. Then I tell them that J.R.R. Tolkien was a Christian. He really was. Alot of Christian themes pop up in his books, such as life after death, the struggle against evil, and the likes. I tell them that like LOTR's, D&D can also encompass these ideas. I tell them that as a DM, I try for semi-serious heroic campaigns, where players make decisions for themselves based on what goes on. Therefore, if a player makes a questionable act, it is his and only his fault, and whether or not he takes it too seriously is up to them. I only provide the stage. I do tell them that I do make villains that do bad thing, and I describe what bad things the villains do. I also remind these christians that without evil characters doing evil things, there is no motivation for a good character to do good deeds. So in short, I tell them that D&D will not turn you into a satanist, even if there are demons, undead, vampires, werewolves and all those yucky things that make a Christian question one's loyalty to the Lord. These are props and characters in a story that's essential for characters to either triumph or fail. Just like the stories in the bible. Just like LOTR. Just like life. (BTW, even then I tend to still be a bit 'conservative'. I don't use BOVD (tasteless!), and I don't go overboard on evil details (such as vividly describe in all details such themes as necrophilia, pedophilia, murder, etc) for the sake of taste and morality. At some point, I say you can't go too far, or else it becomes too perverse.
Dragontooth 06-16-05, 10:36 AM	4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? The argument I always bring to these people is. 1st. I ask them if they allow their children, or themselves play Monopoly. If they say no well my argument is lost, and I ignore said person. but if they say yes Then I attack them why they play or let their kids play a game that your whole objective is to be greedy, and bankrupt the other players in the game. Greed is a sin in the bible.
Shemeska the Marauder 06-16-05, 10:46 AM	Are you a christian gamer if so will you answer some questions I have. 1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? 1) Yes, because it's just a game. 2) No. Again, it's just a game. 3) Nope. 4) They're ignorant, and the least of my worries as far as extremists in the world go. Till they start sending people in my profession razor blade studded letters like the ELF/ALF do, they won't register on my list of worries.
DrMorganes 06-16-05, 10:51 AM	2. I personally know a former Satanist who's old cult drew him in with D&D (and a hot sexy girl). I would suspect the draw had far more to do with the hot sexy girl than with D&D... :drool:
kam_Islash 06-16-05, 10:51 AM	1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? Yes, they're imaginary deities and I'm not really worshipping them, and furthermore, ITS JUST A FUGGIN GAME! 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? No, never have heard of such a thing. Fundamentalists....always making my people look bad with their insanity. They remind me of the Chaos army from Dawn of War. 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? No, its just a game. A very fun game that also doubles as an all night party, but a game none the less. 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? They're a loud minority and need to try playing it once in a while. It's a freaking game! Its the same crowd that thinks Santa is an anagram for Satan. IT'S SPANISH FOR SAINT DUMB****S! STOP MAKING ME LOOK LIKE AN IDIOT! In response to -shade-'s post Seriously, the cleric was obviously based on Jesus and his apostles. ///
StormKnight 06-16-05, 10:55 AM	Just some stray clarifications...not that I claim to be the most reliable source on any of these issue, but as far as I know: Also, as said above, a lot of it is Media Hype. There was one parent who sparked it all claiming that their son committed Suicide due to DnD. Well, it turned out that he had been doing well in his DnD game, and had expressed suicidal feelings weeks before he committed suicide and his parents ignored them. They were simply looking for a scapegoat for their terrible parenting, and DnD was an easy target. You can find more detailed explanations on here, but the real original D&D scare didn't even involve a suicide. The guy turned up later at a different college, which he had gone to because he didn't think his parents could handle that he was gay. It wasn't certain he even played D&D, and the original "theory" proposed by the investigator that led to the whole thing was that he had gotten lost in the steam tunnels under the campus while playing D&D - based on no knowledge whatsoever that D&D does NOT normally involve actually going out and crawling around in tunnels. There's a whole nest of other misinformation and silliness associated with it. I find it interesting that he claims to be skilled in most forms of wiccan culture and that he thanks God for his ability to follow both the divine and occult paths at the same time, if that doesn't clue you off, his one goal in life is to anger people, as shown by his articles that attack DnD Players and claim that teens have no free will. And the fact that he claims to follow two mutually-opposed Religions. I would ignore everything he writes/says. While this guy sounds like a real nutcase, there's nothing unusual about considering oneself both Wiccan and Christian; Wicca is not mutually exclusive of Christianity by any means, and apparently those who are both don't find Christianity to be exclusive of Wicca. This guy, however, doesn't sound remotely true to the principles of either. So in short, I tell them that D&D will not turn you into a satanist, even if there are demons, undead, vampires, werewolves and all those yucky things... Just for the record, demons and such stuff really won't turn you into a satanists. True "Satanists" don't actually have anything to do with demons...or satan for that matter. They believe in the material over the spiritual, in basically doing whatever the heck you want, and the name was chosen just to be as offensive to the "mainstream" as possible. While the freaky cult making sacrifices to demons makes great horror-TV fodder, an awful lot of truly freaky cults which wind up wiping out all their members and such stuff take their basis in...Christianity. Or at least claim to. (Not to say that this the fault of the actual Christian religion...whackos draw people in with what they are familiar with). Do you take the game more seriously than a game? Anyone who wants to compare how "seriously" this game gets taken should look at events like one father beating another to death at their kids hockey game. Now THAT's taking a game too seriously! But its nothing inherent about RPGs. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? Hey, I'm dead-set against some things that I have never directly experienced. They have a right to be. I respect them IF they can back up their antagonism to it with reasons. If they just have that idea from hype (and I think very few anti-D&D people really have anything other than hype) I don't think less of them - if they are willing to reconsider their opinion in the face of reason. I don't blame someone for starting with bad info.
kam_Islash 06-16-05, 11:01 AM	While this guy sounds like a real nutcase, there's nothing unusual about considering oneself both Wiccan and Christian; Wicca is not mutually exclusive of Christianity by any means, and apparently those who are both don't find Christianity to be exclusive of Wicca. This guy, however, doesn't sound remotely true to the principles of either. . Sounds like this guy is a closet Mystic Theurge player. ///
Cravensson 06-16-05, 11:03 AM	Are you a christian gamer if so will you answer some questions I have. 1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? 1. Yes. They're part of the game. 2. No. And the proper word is "cult". 3. No. I spend a lot of time with it. Some guys go bowling every night. But we both know its just a game. Same-same. 4. They don't know what they're talking about, most are just repeating what they are told by somebody else.
nightwing 06-16-05, 11:05 AM	1. Do you still use deities even though you're christian?why? 2. Have you ever heard of a cult originating from dnd? 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? 1. Yes. Because I am confident in my ability to distinguish make-believe from reality, as can most every 4-year-old who plays "house." 2. No, I've not heard of a cult stemming from d&d. IF this has EVER happened, I'm confident that it was because the initiating members were interested in occult activity long before their introduction to d&d. I personally don't believe it has ever happened. 3. I'll reword this question to: "How seriously do you take this game?" I value my time with good friends. I value my time to unwind from a long hard week at the office. I value activity that stimulates creativity. I value comic relief. I value mental challenge. I value the use of my imagination. Because I value all these things, I value d&d highly. However, the necessities of my health, my family, my job, my pets, my house, my friends, and my faith all far outweigh the enjoyment of a couple hours of d&d. This is the only true danger that d&d (or any hobby) presents to anyone: the miss-prioritizing of one's life such that one can enjoy a game rather that confront one's responsibilities. 4. Mostly they are misinformed. I understand that they are devout and desire to do God's will, part of which is encouraging others to do God's will. However the Bible teaches against "zeal without knowledge." So those folks should find out a bit more about what they're talking about before being so judgemental. I hope I've been helpful...
Thorak 06-16-05, 11:10 AM	The Christian based religions necessitate a transcendental suspension of the rational and ethical (Abraham-Isaac). This can lead otherwise good people to having negative feelings towards harmless past-times (as well as a whole host of other things). This is not something that we as humans can over come. It is a necessary part of our condition. It is not even entirely bad. This passion that allows us to suspend our normative values is often a source of motivation more powerful than any other. At the very least it should be studied. I won't debate it here, because this isn't the place, but this is a gross oversimplification and, if you were to examine it in detail, it doesn't hold up. Christianity is just as kind and good a faith as any other in the world. That we have nutjob extremists who deliberately misinterpret things to suit their personal wishes does not change this, it merely describes the nutjob extremists. Much like the problem with muslim terrorists isn't Islam, it's the extremism that drives them to commit terrorist acts and think them justified. I have yet to see any Christian extremist support their stance without ignoring passages from the New Testament, like those I've already cited, and quoting the Old Testament instead. Which is silly, because the Old Testament isn't taken as the literal Word of God by hardly anyone. Disagree? Ask the extremist if they eat shellfish. You know, lobster, mussels, oysters, any of that. If they do, inform them that by the very Bible they're quoting, they are commiting Abominations. Eating shellfish is an Abomination. That's way past mere sin. Right up there with satan worship and bestiality. I have yet to hear anyone actually insist that eating lobster is worse than murdering babies, and they would have to do so to claim the Old Testament is literal word for word truth.
nightwing 06-16-05, 11:26 AM	PS. I am a christian, the 1/2 orc fighter in our group is played by a methodist minister, and the elven wizard is played by his wife.
arphaxad 06-16-05, 11:30 AM	I won't debate it here, because this isn't the place, but this is a gross oversimplification and, if you were to examine it in detail, it doesn't hold up. Christianity is just as kind and good a faith as any other in the world. That we have nutjob extremists who deliberately misinterpret things to suit their personal wishes does not change this, it merely describes the nutjob extremists. Much like the problem with muslim terrorists isn't Islam, it's the extremism that drives them to commit terrorist acts and think them justified. I have yet to see any Christian extremist support their stance without ignoring passages from the New Testament, like those I've already cited, and quoting the Old Testament instead. Which is silly, because the Old Testament isn't taken as the literal Word of God by hardly anyone. Disagree? Ask the extremist if they eat shellfish. You know, lobster, mussels, oysters, any of that. If they do, inform them that by the very Bible they're quoting, they are commiting Abominations. Eating shellfish is an Abomination. That's way past mere sin. Right up there with satan worship and bestiality. I have yet to hear anyone actually insist that eating lobster is worse than murdering babies, and they would have to do so to claim the Old Testament is literal word for word truth. Yes, but remember, Jesus himself quoted the old testament many times, many other writers of the new testament quoted the old testament, obviously had some value to them. Your arguement about shellfish is moot, an "extremeist" would remember that jesus declared all foods "clean", as well as paul's visions in acts made all foods clean. Also, I'm dubious about your claim of abomination, as satan worship was never covered in the old testament, or really in the new testament either. As far as "literal" interpretations of the bible, there are more people that take it literally than you think. Also I don't think it's only the "extemeists" that are deliberately misquoting to suit their own agenda if you get my meaning.
serow_#R 06-16-05, 11:31 AM	Are you a christian gamer if so will you answer some questions I have. 1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? 1. yup, coz i'm playing a cleric who worships a deity duh... (although psionics are much cooler than any... i love jedi-like classes :D ) 2. in singapore?!?! we have few enough people who actually play this game for cryin' out loud... 3. nope... it's just a danged good way to have some fun :D 4. i pity them ignorant people... and i pity my poor misunderstand roleplaying game for coming under fire too
The Man from Uncle 06-16-05, 11:34 AM	Thorak - ' won't debate it here, because this isn't the place, but this is a gross oversimplification' I am currently coming me down with some sort of flu thing (in China too, so I am not up to much right now), but I read down from my last post to Thorak's, knowing that he was the last to post, and was happy to see that someone can at least grasp the notion of transcendental suspension of the rational and ethical. Yes Thorak......it is, in every way conceivable, the simplified version of the point......but do you really think I can make the full case here? (I also think you are taking it to be a purely religious point. It is not.) All I wanted (and hoped) to point out was that in many cases peoples perceivings are based on something beyond their rational and conscious considerations. They have an emotional reaction based on what appears to be prima facie an ineffable belief. On further reflection it normally comes down to an 'irrational' allegiance to something like love, faith, country ect. Some cases are more extreme than others. EDIT: The fact that I describe it as 'an 'irrational' allegiance' does not detract from how important it is as a facet of the human condition.
Roxlimn 06-16-05, 11:34 AM	1. Yes. I find that it's much simpler to roleplay fictional deities as fallible superhumans than it is to roleplay God. Also a lot less likely to be blasphemous. 2. Heard of? Yes. Entirely from so-called Christian extremists who say so without proof of the same. Not from any other source. 3. What do you mean by that? One might say that Football and Soccer fanatics take those games seriously enough to riot, maim, vandalize, and manslaughter. Do you mean that seriously? Professional sport players in the big leagues are not unknown to skip holy services for their livelihood, and even to commit obvious sins in pursuit of a game. Do you mean that seriously? I take D&D as no more serious than say, Settlers. 4. I feel that they needlessly cast aspersion and stain the image of those of us Christians who don't feel like we need to belittle, insult, or persecute other people for any reason whatsoever.
BladeDrinker 06-16-05, 11:44 AM	Are you a christian gamer if so will you answer some questions I have. 1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? 1) Because they are no more real than wizards creating fireballs by fondling bat-guano are real. It is a sin to worship a statue of a golden calf. It is not a sin to own or look at a statue of a golden calf. I'm not worshipping the gods in DnD. 2) No, but I'm sure there have been. There have been cults created in Jesus' name, after all, so why not Nerull. 3) No. 4) I reminds me of a radical christian girl I worked with who had a crush on me because she found out I had studied theology for two years and wanted to marry a pastor. (Apparently I am destined to become a pastor because I studied theology. :rolleyes: ) She once told me that she was at a wedding and went around and took away people's glasses of champagne because consuming alcohol is a sin. Now what was Jesus' first miracle again? Jesus doesn't hate DnD, and I don't care if other Christians do.
arphaxad 06-16-05, 11:46 AM	These simly seem to be empty words to me, I find it emotive. Although I don't beleive in free will, so I guess I would have to agree that not everything is determined by rational and conscious decision, but I still don't find how it has relevance, or even meaning in general. Thorak - ' won't debate it here, because this isn't the place, but this is a gross oversimplification' I am currently coming me down with some sort of flu thing (in China too, so I am not up to much right now), but I read down from my last post to Thorak's, knowing that he was the last to post, and was happy to see that someone can at least grasp the notion of transcendental suspension of the rational and ethical. Yes Thorak......it is, in every way conceivable, the simplified version of the point......but do you really think I can make the full case here? (I also think you are taking it to be a purely religious point. It is not.) All I wanted (and hoped) to point out was that in many cases peoples perceivings are based on something beyond their rational and conscious considerations. They have an emotional reaction based on what appears to be prima facie an ineffable belief. On further reflection it normally comes down to an 'irrational' allegiance to something like love, faith, country ect. Some cases are more extreme than others. EDIT: The fact that I describe it as 'an 'irrational' allegiance' does not detract from how important it is as a facet of the human condition.
SammasterT 06-16-05, 11:55 AM	[B] Seriously, the cleric was obviously based on Jesus and his apostles. Thats funny, I thought they were based, like so much else in original DnD, on Teutonic culture. Teutonic priests were not allowed to bare arms, even when they went to the battle field, they could not shed blood, and were strongly associated with hoiliness and teamwork, and the power of healing (springing from the same Teutonic root as the word holy and whole) and prosperity. Of course, Christianity always has had problems with where Teutonic belief ends and where Christianity begins, so, no harm, no foul ... at least not on this end. :)
Soulkeeper 06-16-05, 12:06 PM	Are you a christian gamer if so will you answer some questions I have. 1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? LOL 1. yes, see answer to question 3. 2. no, not that I care, but finatics are finatics...game, religious or otherwise. 3. no. 4. ignorance is exactly that.
Shemeska the Marauder 06-16-05, 12:23 PM	4) I reminds me of a radical christian girl I worked with who had a crush on me because she found out I had studied theology for two years and wanted to marry a pastor. (Apparently I am destined to become a pastor because I studied theology. :rolleyes: ) She once told me that she was at a wedding and went around and took away people's glasses of champagne because consuming alcohol is a sin. It's not a sin in mainstream Christianity in any way. Now if you look outside of mainstream Christian theology, Mormons believe that alcohol (and caffeine even) are sins, and will avoid consuming them. She might have been a rather hardcore Mormon.
Kevtar 06-16-05, 12:37 PM	I won't debate it here, because this isn't the place, but this is a gross oversimplification and, if you were to examine it in detail, it doesn't hold up. Christianity is just as kind and good a faith as any other in the world. That we have nutjob extremists who deliberately misinterpret things to suit their personal wishes does not change this, it merely describes the nutjob extremists. Much like the problem with muslim terrorists isn't Islam, it's the extremism that drives them to commit terrorist acts and think them justified. I have yet to see any Christian extremist support their stance without ignoring passages from the New Testament, like those I've already cited, and quoting the Old Testament instead. Which is silly, because the Old Testament isn't taken as the literal Word of God by hardly anyone. Disagree? Ask the extremist if they eat shellfish. You know, lobster, mussels, oysters, any of that. If they do, inform them that by the very Bible they're quoting, they are commiting Abominations. Eating shellfish is an Abomination. That's way past mere sin. Right up there with satan worship and bestiality. I have yet to hear anyone actually insist that eating lobster is worse than murdering babies, and they would have to do so to claim the Old Testament is literal word for word truth. I agree with most of this. Particularly the generalization of Christianity. However, in regard to the Old Testament, it most definitely is regarded by many Christians as the literal word of God. Many Christians believe Christ's sacrifice replaced the mosaic law, and therefore the need for strict rules regarding eating, labor, sex, and blood sacrifice were eliminated. So, although the Mosaic law is no longer in effect, it also is not regarded as untrue or apocryphal; It has simply been replaced by a higher law.
Kevtar 06-16-05, 12:44 PM	Also, I'm dubious about your claim of abomination, as satan worship was never covered in the old testament, or really in the new testament either. Actually, when Christ was fasting for 40 days, he was tempted many times by Satan. One of the instances included Satan telling Christ to worship him. (see Luke 4:8) Christ's response was: Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Just FYI :)
Kevtar 06-16-05, 12:52 PM	...and was happy to see that someone can at least grasp the notion of transcendental suspension of the rational and ethical. [Sarcasm] Well geez, Man... who the heck do you think we are? Believe it or not, I know what prima facie means too! ;)
Fantasymage44 06-16-05, 01:03 PM	although I'm not christian, I'm going to answer the questions my self. btw, just imagine what it would be like for a D&D board monitor to stumble across a board thats more of a religious conversation then D&D lol. a bit out of context. 1: Yes, I still use deities in D&D, of course why not? I don't see christians condemming christian actors playing a character in a movie that happens to be an atheist, worshipping another god, etc. this is as much unreal as that is. 2: No, I haven't. of course if any exist, then the people in them are likely insane already, and the cult is just an excuse to do things that they do in the cult. 3: Well, kinda, but only because I'm trying to write a D&D book. other then that, no (I'm interested in writing and game design, so I just combined the two lol) 4: if they have real evidence, and not just circumstancial evidence then they might have a basis for their argument. people doing things related to D&D would likely do that stuff anyway, since if someone was wacky enough to do something insane, such as murder, in the name of D&D, they would just as easily do it with anything else, such as sports. I agree with a lot of the previous posts. so saying that someone killed in the name of D&D, and generalizing on that point, is only circumstantial evidence. like previously mentioned, something could be blammed on something if thats already in the public eye in a distasteful way. someone doing something like that doesn't mean every one that plays D&D could potentially do that, as the same with sports. if one person goes in a mad fury because their team lost, and goes on a killing spree, that means that they were previously inclinded to be homicidal, and not that there is something wrong with the game in question.
danielinthewolvesden 06-16-05, 01:19 PM	Hmm, a poster new to boards, posts a highly controversial question, then doesn't come back to reply.......hmmm.... :waits: :uh-huh: :ahem:
Baned 06-16-05, 01:38 PM	Are you a christian gamer if so will you answer some questions I have. 1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? 1. It's a fictional world. Just a game. They're no more real than the dragons or goblins. 2. Not personally, but I've heard rumors of their existance, but fail to ever see real world references. 3. I role-play, but I don't let it consume my life, like the folks referenced in the #2 question. 4. See #1 response, plus, it keeps the youth occupied instead of doing drugs and joining gangs. Can lead to nice fellowships as well.
Twick the Gnome Thief 06-16-05, 01:55 PM	These simly seem to be empty words to me, I find it emotive. Although I don't beleive in free will, so I guess I would have to agree that not everything is determined by rational and conscious decision, but I still don't find how it has relevance, or even meaning in general. If you had no free will God would decide if you went to Hell or Heaven before you were born.
Shanga the half-elf bard 06-16-05, 02:10 PM	Thank you for all of your replies. I am asking these questions because I am a christian and my christian mother is worried about these things. :thinks: But she is especiallyworried about the magic part like casting spells and all the violence. Could you give me some tips on these topics also. :)
pyro_cat 06-16-05, 02:14 PM	If you had no free will God would decide if you went to Hell or Heaven before you were born. thats right.... and some believe the bible supports this look up calvanism
Baned 06-16-05, 02:24 PM	Thank you for all of your replies. I am asking these questions because I am a christian and my christian mother is worried about these things. :thinks: But she is especiallyworried about the magic part like casting spells and all the violence. Could you give me some tips on these topics also. :) Depending how her sense of humor is, do what we did. We were playing at my friend's house. His mother (devout Christian) hates the game, but lets us play anyway. Just to mess with her, I told her we were going to sacrafice Lee (another friend) to a pagan god if his character died. I then instructed her to get the saltshaker so we could make a pentagram on the carpet. She did this little laugh and stormed off, kinda. (I know she knew it was a joke.) Giving into stereotypes for the sake of humor can be fun. Remember, I said the world "humor" twice. That should indicated to all of you that I was joking the whole time I did the above act.
hazel monday 06-16-05, 02:27 PM	look, i don't bust into your church and interrupt the pastor when he's trying to talk about whatever it is he's trying to talk about. it's only fair that you return the favor and keep jesus, or allah, or whoever out of the message boards. thanks.
BladeDrinker 06-16-05, 02:39 PM	But she is especiallyworried about the magic part like casting spells and all the violence. Could you give me some tips on these topics also. :) Does she think it is occult? Then the best thing to do would be to play a game in front of her and show her it is just that- a game. As for violence, read Joshua 8:24-27. (The Israelites kill every man, woman and child in the city of Ai.) Is the Bible evil because it discusses violence? But to be honest, I grew up in a Christian community and most people within that group are not interested in being open-minded. I would not advocate lying to your parents, but if they are like most conservative, religious people they are less likely to be persuaded by their child reasoning them than they are by rabid, fundamentalistic preachers. I just hope you are luckier than most people. If your parents don't want you to play, then don't. Wait until you go to college.
StormKnight 06-16-05, 02:41 PM	Thank you for all of your replies. I am asking these questions because I am a christian and my christian mother is worried about these things. :thinks: But she is especiallyworried about the magic part like casting spells and all the violence. Could you give me some tips on these topics also. :) Well, for the "magic" part you might want to ask her why the issue of magic in the game concerns. And I mean seriously ask about it, wanting a response. Odds are she's kind of heard that D&D is bad because it has magic in it, and doesn't have a more valid reason than general "mass hysteria". If that's the case, you need to try to show her that. If she does have some real reasons, then you know what's wrong and are on your way to really being able to talk about it. As for violence, if she wants you to avoid action movies or books for the same reasons, you may have an issue. If she doesn't mind those, she shouldn't mind an RPG.
Rntaboy 06-16-05, 02:43 PM	Thank you for all of your replies. I am asking these questions because I am a christian and my christian mother is worried about these things. :thinks: But she is especiallyworried about the magic part like casting spells and all the violence. Could you give me some tips on these topics also. :) If I were your mom, I'd be more worried about the greenish tint that has discolored your skin, and your sudden regenerative powers. Amaziningly sardonicly funny signature.
Rabid Dire Wolverine 06-16-05, 02:56 PM	Are you a christian gamer if so will you answer some questions I have. 1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? 1. I use the greek gods. They're way more awesome than the weirdos in the D&D books, and there's none of that evil-death-worshipping stuff with the greek gods, and that's what really makes a lot of christians uneasy. 2. No. Anything like that probably originated from gaming in an insane asylum. 3. No. See 3. 4. Those are usually the ones who have only heard those stories of cultists and cat butchering. My mom was like that until I started to play and showed her that there is a sane side to it.
KoboldSlayer 06-16-05, 02:57 PM	If your parents don't want you to play, then don't. Wait until you go to college. *clap* *clap* *clap* :clap: This is well said and sound advice. That said, I would highly recommend three things: 1. Since you are Christian, do with this decision and problem what you would do with any other: PRAY about what is the right thing to do. And LISTEN for an answer, prayerfully considering your options. 2. Talk to your mother about it. Do this when it is just you and her (no friends around). Without being argumentative, invite her to a game. Phrase it as an invite, not like she is ignorant and needs to be educated about it. And ask her exactly what her concerns are about the game then listen attentively to her reply. Don't argue, but calmly tell her how you feel about the things she just said. (This shows her that a. you are listening to her and b. you have given it some thought.) 3. Tell her that you understand what she has said, that you respect her opinion, and that you hope she will reconsider, but if she doesn't then you will not participate in the games. Yes, that's a bummer for you. It tells her, though, that you respect her (which you are obligated to do as a Christian no matter your age), that you will obey her (which you are obligated to do as a Christian child, if you are under her roof), and that you are mature enough to play the game if she decides to allow it. This should go a long way toward softening her response to the game in general, if she knows you are mature enough to make a tough decision that you don't like and to (possibly) go against your friends' opinions to do so. She should be alot less worried about the other aspects of the game if she knows you are thinking as an individual, as she is PROBABLY worried that you're going to let someone influence you into non-Christian beliefs as a result. It sounds like you are on the right track by asking these questions in the first place and by being calm and considering them. Now you've just got some hard decisions to make.
DDogwood 06-16-05, 02:57 PM	Thank you for all of your replies. I am asking these questions because I am a christian and my christian mother is worried about these things. :thinks: But she is especiallyworried about the magic part like casting spells and all the violence. Could you give me some tips on these topics also. :) It is important to emphasize that the violence is make-believe. It is no worse than violence in movies or on the TV news, and is comparable to the violence in video games. In fact, D&D violence is less insidious than these, because the players can make the game as tame or as violent as is comfortable for them. Most of the games I have played in have put very little emphasis on blood and gore, and more on heroism, justice, and tough moral questions. Actually I could say that playing D&D made me a better Christian, by forcing me to confront tough moral issues I might not have otherwise. As far as spellcasting goes, you can explain that D&D takes place in a fantasy world where modern technology doesn't exist. The magic part is, in many ways, a fun way to play with ideas. What if we didn't have airplanes, but could ride on flying horses? How about using a magic fire instead of a microwave? There is a huge gulf between D&D magic, which is a way that imaginary characters can use the imaginary laws of nature in their imaginary world, and real-life sorcery, which is the act of imposing an unnatural will on a natural world, usually by entreating demonic creatures (which may or may not actually exist). Another way to look at it is that a Christian's duty is to fulfill God's will in the world. The important part for your soul is not so much the specific things that you do, but the intent with which you do them. If your will is aligned with what God wants, and you use your conscience to guide your actions, you should be OK. Evil comes from people trying to supercede God's will with their own, or to act against God's will without regard for conscience or the love God has for anyone else. Playing D&D is like playing a board game, or telling stories with friends & family. It is a way to engage our imaginations, show that we care for each other, and open our minds to the possibilities that the world offers us. If someone is playing D&D to satisfy selfish urges at the expense of other people, that's wrong. If he or she is playing D&D to experience the fullness of the gifts God has givem such as imagination and conscience, then it is good. D&D by itself is nothing more than a leisure activity.
KoboldSlayer 06-16-05, 03:07 PM	One more thought: Make sure your mom knows everyone you are playing with. If you just go out to "someone's" house with "some people", then she is going to be much more wary. If she knows you're going to Bob's house to meet with Jim, Dan, and Amy and she knows those kids and Bob's parents, then she'll be alot happier about it.
Gedrin 06-16-05, 03:21 PM	I am a Christian, and a long time gamer. Like most things, I've given some thought to the compatability of my spiritual life with gaming, so I'd like to think I've got some sympathy with the suspicion of gaming by some in the Christian community. 1. I do use fictional "gods" in my game. They don't walk the world and they don't talk to people directly. They didn't create the universe or life in the world, but have shaped and helped differentiate different species. These powers don't really resemble the Divine and are not intended to. In fact, the gods of my game are personifications of various virtues. I have a unified goodly pantheon and it is a common in-game theological point of view that the gods are servants of Good. I've thought a lot about this subject, and I don't think having various aspects of good represented in that way is harmful or against the various Biblical injunctions against idolotry. I've considered expressing the idea of God Almighty in the game, but I'm not sure that is a good idea, since as DM I would be responsible for judging how God reacts to the events of the world. So, I came to the conclusion that it was better not to attempt to portray God, and instead have non-omnipotent powers that express aspects of good in the game universe. The term "gods" bothers some people, and myself to some extent. I've considered terming them "saints", but in truth it's a semantic difference, and it wouldn't make any difference in game. In many ways I see this similar to a fictional Aslan the Lion, who is a supernatural representation of good in C.S. Lewis's world of Narnia. For those who find Aslan unacceptable, I would simply agree to be in disagreement on the matter. 2. No one in my gaming group has become more involved in the Occult through the course of the game. Some have chosen to read a bit more philosophy, but not Occult. In fact, one of my players has been Wiccan, but now espouses a more Deist point of spiritual belief. I don't really think the game had much to do with moving from poly to monotheistic belief on his part, but it does argue against the idea that participating moves one away from a traditional belief in a single God the Father. However, like most participatory activities formulated by human beings, other games may encourage other types of behavior. If everyone at the table is into the occult, and occult matters are discussed in depth at the game, it could go that way. 3. I do take the game seriously. I imagine I take it about as seriously as those who play leage baseball or other sports take their hobbies. I'm a guy. I've got a hobby. Guys tend to take their hobbies seriously. Some play sports. Some do woodworking. Some collect stamps. I play RPGs. I just saw a guy spend $1,400 on rims for a motorcycle that he'll likely spend hours installing. Do I think I'm more serious about my gaming than he about his motorcycle? Not really. 4. I don't expect people who believe gaming to be harmful to participate in it, nor do I think it's required that one participate in a thing to form a judgement (example: doing crack is bad). I think it's totally inappropriate to encourage children to game if their parrents object to it. If people come to the conclusion that gaming is a risky hobby, and choose to discourage others from participating in it, that's fine. However, we are talking about an area where there's dispute among clear thinking people. It's likely a dispute that hinges a great deal on how the gaming itself is handled. Some games are all mayhem, murder, hack and slash, in game sacrifices to dark powers and BoVD as a character building tool. We see questions about these games every day on these boards. Some people believe that spending hours every week fantasizing about this sort of thing isn't good for a person's moral/spiritual health. Given the content of the mature forums here (there is no worse add for the hobby than the Mature Think Tank on this site), I think they could well be right. However, not all games are like that. I know I run a game that is very different than that, and I don't like to be judged based on what other people have done with their hobby. It doesn't bother me when people make a judgement that gaming is something they want to avoid and they encourage others to avoid. I avoid a great deal of what is in gaming. It would bother me if people told me that I am worshiping Satan or some other nonsense, but I don't think I've ever had that experience.
Thorak 06-16-05, 03:32 PM	Yes, but remember, Jesus himself quoted the old testament many times, many other writers of the new testament quoted the old testament, obviously had some value to them. Your arguement about shellfish is moot, an "extremeist" would remember that jesus declared all foods "clean", as well as paul's visions in acts made all foods clean. Also, I'm dubious about your claim of abomination, as satan worship was never covered in the old testament, or really in the new testament either. As far as "literal" interpretations of the bible, there are more people that take it literally than you think. Also I don't think it's only the "extemeists" that are deliberately misquoting to suit their own agenda if you get my meaning. My point, however, was that Jesus says two things. He says he hasn't come to abolish the law, but even as he says that, he abolishes it. By doing things like declaring all foods clean. Heck, in that same passage that he declares foods clean, he says that as an example of his greater point; that things that go into someone don't defile him, only things that come from within can. To paraphrase it for this example; D&D cannot possibly be evil, nor can it corrupt anyone. But a person, already corrupt, can use it to justify that corruption. Jesus changed a whole heck of a lot about how sin and judgement worked. When people condemn others for their actions, they're acting like Old Testamenters. They completely missed Jesus' point. Can't put it any more bluntly than he did; "Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned, forgive, and you will be forgiven." In other words; unless you're absolutely perfect, you don't have any business telling others how to live their lives. And if you choose to, then you will be condemned for doing so by God. Right there in black and white, though many Christians don't like to follow it. I could go into further detail, but this really isn't the place to discuss religion. To the OP; if your mother has worries, point out two well-known authors to her. J.R.R. Tolkien, and C.S. Lewis. Both were devout Christians, and both the LotR and Chronicles of Narnia are intended to be Christian allegory (Narnia more so, but both are to some extent). And both deal with magic and fairy tale creatures and such. Because both are fictions, and make no claims to be truths. That's the difference. D&D isn't in any way true. It's not real. The only way playing D&D could even begin to break commandments is if it were real.
ajmastrean 06-16-05, 03:35 PM	1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? Yes, because the game is modelled after some parts of our own...there is a need for religion and (a) "higher being(s)"...plus, who would my players curse when they fall off that cliff for being stupid?! 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? No. 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? Like someone said earlier...no more seriously than someone who plays football (or their father, for that matter) takes it. I spend a good amount of time preparing for the game, learning the rules, and developing character. Your character is an extension of yourself in some ways and D&D is more than a game, it is a social experiment. 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? I am somewhat ashamed at their ignorance. They either have a passion (and they are attacking the wrong thing) or they are purposely trying to take D&D down (for some perverted beliefs).
Kevtar 06-16-05, 03:56 PM	look, i don't bust into your church and interrupt the pastor when he's trying to talk about whatever it is he's trying to talk about. it's only fair that you return the favor and keep jesus, or allah, or whoever out of the message boards. thanks. Unfortunately, these discussion relate to gameplaying. In addition, no one is evangelizing, and I am of the opinion that discussions like these can only enhance ones view and enjoyment of RPGs. That said... Don't be a hater! ;)
Kevtar 06-16-05, 04:02 PM	Thank you for all of your replies. I am asking these questions because I am a christian and my christian mother is worried about these things. :thinks: But she is especiallyworried about the magic part like casting spells and all the violence. Could you give me some tips on these topics also. :) The best option is to invite her to a role playing session. However, choosing the right setting is important. You should know the people you are playing with and what kind of game to expect, because not all of the ways in which D&D is played are the same. For instance, I know gamers who prefer to play in a candle-lit room with "spooky" music in the background. Other groups may prefer to dress "in character", others may prefer a hard-edged game overrun with demons, devils, and the like. Situations like these aren't the norm, (whatever the norm is) and may only reinforce your mother's fears. I believe these situations are results of the player's interests and not the games influence. One of my son's friends mother was concerned about him playing D&D. She brought him over to the game and announced that she would like to watch. Since our game is pretty run-of-the-mill, there was nothing out of the ordinary and she left somewhat perplexed, but satisfied that her son's soul was safe. She was perplexed because, he's been diagnosed as ADHD, but the he sat quietly without fidgeting and maintained his focus on the game the entire time she was there.
arphaxad 06-16-05, 04:03 PM	If you had no free will God would decide if you went to Hell or Heaven before you were born. You are correct, the first chapter of ephesians, john 10, ect. I see no need for man to have a choice in the matter, in fact man's choice is the problem, innate biases towards evil and all.
hazel monday 06-16-05, 04:06 PM	i can't believe that i'm the only person who finds this thread remarkably offensive. this is not the place to discuss religion. christianity,or any real world religion for that matter, is'nt mentioned in any d&d book for a good reason. it should not be brought up here either. i have opinions about religion, but i don't bring them up on these boards so as to avoid offending religious people. i really wish others would extend that same courtesy to me, and others like me.
Fantasymage44 06-16-05, 04:18 PM	i can't believe that i'm the only person who finds this thread remarkably offensive. this is not the place to discuss religion. christianity,or any real world religion for that matter, is'nt mentioned in any d&d book for a good reason. it should not be brought up here either. i have opinions about religion, but i don't bring them up on these boards so as to avoid offending religious people. i really wish others would extend that same courtesy to me, and others like me. You do realize people can choose to participate or not in any discussions? its not like they have to read everything. although it might be good to not go too far, (and to abide by the wotc forum rules) there is nothing wrong with discussing it here.
hazel monday 06-16-05, 04:37 PM	fine. whatever. i guess i should be used to having my opinions being dismissed by religious types anyway.
DaveReaves 06-16-05, 04:37 PM	William Schnoebelen has written many an article on the subject from the point of view of one who finds the game to be a "feeding program for occultism and witchcraft". You can read a lot of his work at Edited to remove CoC offending linkThe site has a great deal of information ranging from versus that talk about evil being in the mind and even a whole section on why a Cristian should not play D&D. Even though I cant seem to find it now, there was also a shot comic book for sale about a gril who is transformed into a cleric of satin and kills her friends. If you look in the bibliography of some of the articales you can see quotes where authorities have linked deaths and murder to D&D. He also says he was a practising occultist, was approched by TSR representatives to make sure his rituals are authintic. That being said, if your not a fruitcase to being with (meaning you know that there is a diffrence between reality and fantasy) you are in no danger of killing your brother or running away and joining a cult. Saying "I cast magic missle" has never before caused bolts of energy to hurt anyone I know, because magic is not real. I have never had the desire to crawl into the sewer and chop rats apart. If your mother is conserned about you playing, sit her down, let her know that you are a responsible, healthy well adjusted person and that the few incidence of people taking this game too seriously were the result of people who had troubled lifes and/or mental disorders (Sean Sellers for example). Good luck and happy gaming
Shemeska the Marauder 06-16-05, 04:47 PM	n/m
DaveReaves 06-16-05, 04:51 PM	i can't believe that i'm the only person who finds this thread remarkably offensive. this is not the place to discuss religion. christianity,or any real world religion for that matter, is'nt mentioned in any d&d book for a good reason. it should not be brought up here either. i have opinions about religion, but i don't bring them up on these boards so as to avoid offending religious people. i really wish others would extend that same courtesy to me, and others like me. Not to seam mean or anything, but if it hurts when you hit your hand with a hammer, you should probably not hit your hand with a hammer. This is a topic that has been discused on the boards before. It has relevance to Dungeons and Dragons and is not hate speach, therefore it has its place on the forums. Writting something that may offend someone is not against the CoC. If you dislike something dont do it, dont even get near it if thats what makes you more comfortable. Trying to make others stop doing something just because it offends you is one of the reasons there is so much hate in the world today. People hate being told to stop doing something they enjoy because it offends someone.
Count Arioch the 28th 06-16-05, 04:56 PM	i can't believe that i'm the only person who finds this thread remarkably offensive. this is not the place to discuss religion. christianity,or any real world religion for that matter, is'nt mentioned in any d&d book for a good reason. it should not be brought up here either. i have opinions about religion, but i don't bring them up on these boards so as to avoid offending religious people. i really wish others would extend that same courtesy to me, and others like me. If you are offended by people discussing Christianity in public, you are no better than the christians that scream at you for whatever faith you follow. So, maybe next time you should invite them over for tea, you have a lot in common with them.
KoboldSlayer 06-16-05, 04:57 PM	To the OP; if your mother has worries, point out two well-known authors to her. J.R.R. Tolkien, and C.S. Lewis. Both were devout Christians, and both the LotR and Chronicles of Narnia are intended to be Christian allegory (Narnia more so, but both are to some extent). And both deal with magic and fairy tale creatures and such. Because both are fictions, and make no claims to be truths. That's the difference. D&D isn't in any way true. It's not real. The only way playing D&D could even begin to break commandments is if it were real. Actually, Narnia is intended to be Christian allegory. Tolkien's work reflects his Christian beliefs because you cannot separate what someone believes from who they are, and his beliefs therefore show up in his writing. But "intended"? Tolkien himself said he disliked allegory and that the Lord of the Rings is nothing of the sort. It may be allegory, but that is not intentional.
BladeDrinker 06-16-05, 05:09 PM	William Schnoebelen has written many an article on the subject from the point of view of one who finds the game to be a "feeding program for occultism and witchcraft". You can read a lot of his work at ***************. The site has a great deal of information ranging from versus that talk about evil being in the mind and even a whole section on why a Cristian should not play D&D. Just FYI, we're not allowed to discuss Mr. Chick and his works on the boards. ;)
LordHell 06-16-05, 05:20 PM	Are you a christian gamer if so will you answer some questions I have. 1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? 1. Yes. It's a game. 2. No. 3. No - this question isn't just related to Christians though. 4. Christians are meant to be tolerant and understanding. These are just extremists who have a very literal interpretation of christianity, ignoring Jesus's intent.
KoboldSlayer 06-16-05, 05:30 PM	1. Yes. It's a game. 2. No. 3. No - this question isn't just related to Christians though. 4. I don't think they're 'real' Christians at all. Christians are meant to be tolerant and understanding. These are just extremists who have a very literal interpretation of christianity, ignoring Jesus's intent. I must respectfully disagree with your interpretation on point number four, or maybe just take it to its next logical extension: While I don't think that people who knock RPGs without actually knowing what goes on at games, what they are about, etc. are correct in their judgements, I also don't think anyone would be correct to judge them for holding those judgements. To say that someone is not a 'real' Christian because they interpret Christianity differently than you do is like the pot calling the kettle black. Because you are then saying that your interpretation is that their interpretation is wrong, so you are making an intepretation. I know plenty of people who are against roleplaying (or more correctly I should say don't APPROVE of it, as to be "against" implies that they are out actually running it down or something, and the people I'm thinking of aren't on a crusade against RPGs or anything...I just know they disapprove) but who are most assuredly Christians.
hazel monday 06-16-05, 05:31 PM	If you are offended by people discussing Christianity in public, you are no better than the christians that scream at you for whatever faith you follow. So, maybe next time you should invite them over for tea, you have a lot in common with them. you know what? you are totally right. when i was little my parents told me that 3 topics one should avoid in polite company are politics, sex, and religion. i guess i got a little carried away. thanks for the metaphoric slap in the face.
LordHell 06-16-05, 05:32 PM	I must respectfully disagree with your interpretation on point number four, or maybe just take it to its next logical extension: While I don't think that people who knock RPGs without actually knowing what goes on at games, what they are about, etc. are correct in their judgements, I also don't think anyone would be correct to judge them for holding those judgements. To say that someone is not a 'real' Christian because they interpret Christianity differently than you do is like the pot calling the kettle black. Because you are then saying that your interpretation is that their interpretation is wrong, so you are making an intepretation. I know plenty of people who are against roleplaying (or more correctly I should say don't APPROVE of it, as to be "against" implies that they are out actually running it down or something, and the people I'm thinking of aren't on a crusade against RPGs or anything...I just know they disapprove) but who are most assuredly Christians. Fair enough. Ill edit my post. Im not really talking about people who disapprove of roleplaying BTW. Im talking about those who label D&D players as Witches, Demon worshipers, they're going to hell, yada yada.
KoboldSlayer 06-16-05, 05:40 PM	Fair enough. Ill edit my post. You don't have to edit it for me. :) I was just thinking of my grandma and her completely disapproving stance on RPGs. She doesn't tell me not to play, but I know she'd rather I didn't, so I tactfully don't talk about it in front of her. I'd recommend that stance to anyone who has Christian friends and relatives who disapprove. If something is alright for you, but not alright for them, you really are obligated not to discuss it in front of them. (See I Corinthians 8. It applies.) Not only that, but it prevents alot of conversations that are no-win for either side because the difference is in opinion, and one opinion is not right over the other. And it keeps them from feeling like you are "rubbing their face in it". P.S. Does anyone else see the irony in someone with a screen name of "LordHell" discussing this topic in a Christian manner? (Nothing wrong with that...but it is just the textbook example of "irony", so I thought I'd point it out.)
Count Arioch the 28th 06-16-05, 05:40 PM	you know what? you are totally right. when i was little my parents told me that 3 topics one should avoid in polite company are politics, sex, and religion. i guess i got a little carried away. thanks for the metaphoric slap in the face. Your parents sound pretty wise to me. ;)
arphaxad 06-16-05, 06:05 PM	Your parents sound pretty wise to me. ;) Politics and religion are in my view the only two topics that matter, sex keeps them both going. Guess I'm not polite company (and I don't want to be either)
Kevtar 06-16-05, 06:05 PM	you know what? you are totally right. when i was little my parents told me that 3 topics one should avoid in polite company are politics, sex, and religion. i guess i got a little carried away. thanks for the metaphoric slap in the face. Well, the thread is titled: "attention all christian gamers", and if discussing religion in these forums offends you, then you really set yourself up. Now, if you posted to this thread because you wanted to voice your disapproval about what you think is inappropriate, then great. I support anyone who exercises their rights in a representative democracy. I just hope that dissidents and those of the majority do so without the negativity that so often accompanies such activity. There's the end of my off-topic submittals
WizO_Cat 06-16-05, 06:06 PM	Ok, I'm going to allow the thread to stay open just as long as the following occurs: 1) No links or discussion about Jack Chick. 2) No in-depth analysis and critiques of religions. Keep the discussion to D&D and external influences that religion has on it and things should be fine. The main thing is that this thread is not to turn into a religion slamming thread. 3) Keep you posts on the subjct of the thread, not other guests. Otherwise it will be considered Baiting, which is against the Code of Conduct. Thanks.
Andrew_980 06-16-05, 07:18 PM	If i may ask wiz-o why can we not discuss anything about Mr. Chick? he is our most vocal opponent and slanders us at every oprotunity. He is the greatest example of the religious stigma of our game, and his works indeed help us show others that many who dislike our game are rabid fools with bizarre ideas on what is right and wrong (this will be my only mention of chick, sorry if it is saying too much. i will remove it if necisary, please no locking)
Attila 06-16-05, 08:01 PM	1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? **************************************** ****************** 1. Of course. Because I'm not actually worshipping those deities, only acting out a role. 2. Never. 3. Anyone no matter what their race, creed, religion that takes a game to be more than a game should seek professional help. 4. I pity them, just as I do anyone that attacks something without bothering to understand it. Unfortunately Christian attackers of the game are in no way unique. There never has been and never will be a single group or organization that does not have members guilty of the same thing.
DaveReaves 06-16-05, 08:01 PM	I'm in the same boat with Andrew on this one. Not to try to rock the boat as I know the WizOs have better things to do than stand around babysitting a potentialy volitile thread, but I would also like to know why that name in particular is ammong the small list of things we cant discuss. If I had to guess it would be because his views are all religion based so attacking his views is attacking his religion. Any other names that I should not go around the boards mentioning (William Schnoebelen for instance)? Just dont want to get myself in trouble. The WizOs can be scarry when their angry. Perhaps someone can PM me so as not to get themselfs into hot watter by posting.
icote 06-16-05, 08:08 PM	Are you a christian gamer if so will you answer some questions I have. 1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? 0. Am I christian? That all depends on your definition.I was raised Catholic and have studied theology in school for 8 years. I believe the namesake of said word taught us two very important lessons: Love God as you love yourself, and Love your neighbor as you love yourself. Everything else most modern christian's believe is based off of the writings of Paul, who never even met Jesus. Am I christian? Sort of... I believe in the two lessons above, but not much else beyond that. 1.As far as deites are concerned, my beliefs hold that all the mythical deties of the real world, are nothing more than aspects of the divine that man has created in order to more fully understand the universe. Each is a slice of God so to speak, much in the same way some Christians view angels... they are pertinent to a specific people at a specific time to help them understand the divine, the world around them, and their place in creation. As far as how that is related to D&D? It really doesn't apply since we're talking about a fictional people, and fictional dieties. Players do not equal their Characters. It's like when I play Monopoly, I'm not really the little car, am I? 2. Sure problems can come from playing D&D, but that usually stems from people with issues determining reality from fiction. The problem is not with the game, its with the person. Besides Occult does not equal evil... Are the old Norse gods occult? How about the other gods mentioned in the Old Testament? Based on the definition of the word Occult even the Christian God is occult. 3. Its a game. Like someone else mentioned, its a gamers version of sports.. How seriously do you take Footbal? Baseball? Water Polo? 4. Once again these are usually folks who follow Pauls teachings and not Jesus'. I think these people are generally: too quick to judge; used to dealing in broad generalities; and are merely looking for a scapegoat. Ironically, these are often people who also seem to have a problem determining reality from fantasy, so on the whole, I think its good that they choose to be against it since it will help them avoid something that could be problematic for them in the long run. It's similar to people with addictive personalities staying away from addictive substances and activities. Here is the important part they have yet to learn: I don't tell them how to live their lives, so I respectfully request they not tell me how to live mine. There is room in this world for everyone, if we're just willing to get along. Sounds alot like what Jesus said, doesn't it?
Deathhammer 06-16-05, 08:11 PM	Are you a christian gamer if so will you answer some questions I have. 1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? yes,i know the differance from a game and my Lord no NO!!!!!!!!! I think if they play it they will enjoy it
GreyLord 06-16-05, 08:17 PM	I'm deeply christian...and 1. Unless I'm playing a Dragonlance Campaign, we don't use multiple deities. Instead we use a monothestic approach, though I do allow the approach of having a certain aspect a priest/cleric could concentrate on. Playing otherwise does in many ways disturb me. 2. Depends on what you define as occult. Yes I know people that got into the occult from D&D. Some got seriously into Wicca, and others into other aspects which one might consider Occult. Many turned atheistic, and others turned so that they were more interested in D&D than Christianity or religion in general. 3. I don't. 4. I say they are free to their opinions, though I am also free to disagree with them.
Fiery_Overlord 06-16-05, 08:35 PM	Are you a christian gamer if so will you answer some questions I have. Q1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? AFirst, D&D is fiction, an interactive form and not a passive observing of the creativity of others, but fiction none the less. As fiction it uses metaphors, plot devices and characters who are not literal beings. Fictional deities qualify as all of that. Second I an not threatened in my faith by works of fiction. Third, by using fiction as a medium topics that would be otherwise uncomfortable or offensive are more effectively communicated because people are less defensive. Q2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? AI believe you meant to use the word 'cult'(Occult isn't a noun.), no and if I did I would laugh at them becuase that is pretty pathetic to get your spirituality from popular fiction, espcially something that isn't intended as such. Yeah, I am judgemental about stupidity, it is a bad habit I got from dealling with cinical people. Q3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? AYes, I want to be a professional writer, and am currently working on my own book. I love creating fiction and this is my favorite medium, what could be better for an artist than to have his audience truely interact with his work? I know what this question is actually referancing, those people who are unhealthily obsessed with game, well that level of escapism is definately destructive and unfortunate but not exclusive to RPGs. Q4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? AI believe a lot of people who claim to be creation doesn't know what being a christian means. Some people just get scared about things they don't understand. Christians who attack game belong to one group or the other. D&D is no different morality wise than being a fan of star trek, star wars or reading a fictional novel, it all is just fiction and some people don't understand that.I am not saying I am a good christian, I am not. I do my best. I try especially hard to not pretend to rightious or holy while condemning others, people like that is who Christ himself preached against. I am not here to shove any of this down people's throats, but you asked, so I answered.
The Man from Uncle 06-16-05, 09:45 PM	Hey, the threads still open, sweet. We are all on the same page about this poster being a troll aren't we? If the topic was not controversial enough, his sig is a give away. Having said this, to take this topic seriously for a moment, there are some interesting things to be taken from it: 1) We will soon find out if prodding a WiZo with a stick is a good idea (thanks Andrew for that, though I do share you concern) 2) The only case so far mentioned that indicates that DnD can cause people to revise their spiritual beliefs, is one where the individuals in question are originally Christian (Thanks Greylord for that) 3) Discussions concerning the transcendental suspension of the rational and ethical, is still someway off becoming part of the standard reading literature at least to undergraduate level in the west (though amazingly enough they do teach it is China, despite having a competing course on Maoism. Very very strange and not just to the observers but the students and teachers too (no sarcasm).) 4) Everyone here can tell the difference between reality and fantasy. Thank God (slight joke intended). 5) The best way to deal with people who have differing beliefs is to sit down and talk about them in depth. Eventually you will reach the bedrock of the problem at which point, most likely, your spade will turn and you will be able to go no further. 6) A tolerant position is a more reasonable position to appreciate.
Thorak 06-17-05, 08:30 AM	i can't believe that i'm the only person who finds this thread remarkably offensive. this is not the place to discuss religion. christianity,or any real world religion for that matter, is'nt mentioned in any d&d book for a good reason. it should not be brought up here either. i have opinions about religion, but i don't bring them up on these boards so as to avoid offending religious people. i really wish others would extend that same courtesy to me, and others like me. As one of the ones delving most deeply into what I'm sure you consider "discussing religion", I have to disagree. I'm not discussing Christianity. I'm discussing why those people who claim D&D is evil are in error by the very tenets of the religion they claim to hold. This isn't the place to evangelize, and so I don't. However, saying we don't have the right to mention religion because of beliefs you hold makes you just as guilty of judgmental extremism as any religious type. This is why the stuff I was bringing up is applicable to anyone; unless you're perfect, you shouldn't be criticizing others. Don't worry about the speck in their eye until you've gotten the log out of your own. You don't need religion to see the point of that. ctually, Narnia is intended to be Christian allegory. Tolkien's work reflects his Christian beliefs because you cannot separate what someone believes from who they are, and his beliefs therefore show up in his writing. But "intended"? Tolkien himself said he disliked allegory and that the Lord of the Rings is nothing of the sort. It may be allegory, but that is not intentional. Perhaps "allegory" was too strong a word then, for LotR. What I meant was that, while he was intentionally rewriting Celtic and Teutonic mythology and their themes when he wrote it, he also inserted his Christian beliefs in a single God and various other Christian concepts into the mix. He did this deliberately. Though it is, admittedly, a much looser and subtle thing than Narnia. For instance, the Maia are angels. No wings, but wings are a medieval creation; earlier representations didn't have them. Yep, even Gandalf. Want even more solid evidence? The great destroyer is Sauron. Who is Sauron? A fallen Maia. Who is Satan? A fallen angel. That's all I meant by "allegory". As for Mr. Chick; I believe he's disallowed on the forums because his very extremism causes every topic he's introduced into for discussion to polarize into extremes, which inevitably leads to the thread being closed as people go nuts.
steenan 06-17-05, 08:38 AM	1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? Yes, I do. I see no problem with it. They are a fiction, part of a game, no more real than any other character in rpg. It's not me who follows them and prays to them, but the character I play. It's perfectly OK, in the same way as learning about Greek and Roman gods in school. 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? It's hard not to hear, but it's hard to judge when what they say is true. Most of the time it's only paranoid tales of some folks who don't really know what RPG is. 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? Why would I? As you wrote, it's just a game. Of course, I spend some time on RPG, but it's the same as with every other hobby. It's just stupid to, for example, get angry at the people I like just because they caused my character die, or something like that. 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? If they didn't play, but they did a precise research in many gaming groups, gathered data and generally used appropriate sociological methodology - I would strongly consider what they say. But if one spits poison, with emmotional attacks, instead of proper argumentation - I deem him stupid, no matter what his religion is.
The_Declaration 06-17-05, 09:07 AM	I'm wondering whether this thread would be kept opened if it was named "attention all muslim gamers"
StormKnight 06-17-05, 10:00 AM	Depends on what you define as occult. Yes I know people that got into the occult from D&D. Some got seriously into Wicca, and others into other aspects which one might consider Occult. Many turned atheistic, and others turned so that they were more interested in D&D than Christianity or religion in general. I don't know what your personal experiences have been, but some of these statements seem a bit odd to me. First of all, I'm really not sure how one could get into Wicca "from" D&D. Wicca isn't in D&D. There's no mention of it. There are some things with resemblances to it, but then there are some things that resemble Christianity as well! You couldn't possibly go just from D&D to Wicca, because you wouldn't know it even existed! Did people really turn atheistic (sp?), as in actively philosphically deciding that all the religions are wrong? From what I have seen, actual atheists are relatively rare - agnostics ("I don't know" or sometimes "It doesn't really matter to me") are not. Being more interested in other pursuits than religion is hardly unusual either...hence the tendency of a church to much fuller on Christmas and Easter than any regular sunday. I'm curious whether any of these "changes" also happened to coincide with major life changes - such as going from elementary school to high school, high school to college, or college to job. These are normal places for people's priorities to shift, and for them to decide that something that used to interest them no longer does. If one's belief in a religion cannot survive contact with anything that even remotely conflicts with it, I would say that belief and faith must have been very poorly held to begin with.
Thorak 06-17-05, 10:05 AM	I'm wondering whether this thread would be kept opened if it was named "attention all muslim gamers" Why would we have a thread like that? Extemist muslims have much greater issues with Western society than just D&D. Extremist Christians, however, are getting down to details. And remember; I'm not knocking religions. I'm knocking extremism. I don't care what arena you're talking about, extremism is the greatest ideological enemy the world has ever seen. Religious, political, what have you. Heck, look at advertising. You don't see anything advertised as "really quite good". They are always advertised as "the best". Even when they can only get away with that because they work just as well as anything else, so there's a giant tie for first place. Extremism is the problem.
KoboldSlayer 06-17-05, 10:19 AM	I don't know what your personal experiences have been, but some of these statements seem a bit odd to me. First of all, I'm really not sure how one could get into Wicca "from" D&D. Wicca isn't in D&D. There's no mention of it. There are some things with resemblances to it, but then there are some things that resemble Christianity as well! You couldn't possibly go just from D&D to Wicca, because you wouldn't know it even existed! I think the issue that many Christians (especially Christian parents) have with D&D and the occult is not so much that the game itself teaches anything specifically occult. Their problem is that, at least according to popular perception, the people playing the game are heavily into the occult. Now, most D&D players are not. Most of us get together and eat pizza and tell stories and have a some laughs and some good, clean fun. So that perception is flawed on the whole. However, there do TEND to be a higher percentage of people who follow other religions or beliefs that could be considered "occultish" in gaming communities than in the population at large. Every parent's goal is to have their kids hang around with friends who are going to be edifying to their child's well-being. So, if a parent perceives that their kid's friends are going to be a source of influence toward the occult, or away from Christianity, then they are going to try to keep their child from those friends and their hobby. It's not so much that the game ITSELF might lead their kids astray. It's that the PEOPLE who play the game will. (The old adage of lying down with dogs and getting up with fleas.) I've been gaming for a long time with very diverse groups and different game systems, genres, and atmospheres. By and large, the D&D crowd has been the most normal. It's been, as stated above, good times, pizza, and friendly jests. Some other games, especially ones that go in for "live action", seem to have a higher percentage of people in what would be considered fringe religions, lifestyles that aren't consistent with the mainstream, and problems separating reality from fantasy. All in all, I think parents should be WAY less worried about D&D than other RP genres. But it is the one that has gotten the most attention and has really gotten a bum deal in the PR department.
hazel monday 06-17-05, 11:32 AM	However, saying we don't have the right to mention religion because of beliefs you hold makes you just as guilty of judgmental extremism as any religious type. This is why the stuff I was bringing up is applicable to anyone; unless you're perfect, you shouldn't be criticizing others. Don't worry about the speck in their eye until you've gotten the log out of your own. You don't need religion to see the point of that. . hey thorak. i know, i get it. count arioch already pointed this out to me and i did the whole mea culpa thing. now be a good christian and forgive me for my sins :) .also, if someone has issues with religion, confronting them with a biblical allegory is probably not the best way to bring them around to your line of thinking . that whole log in your eye thing is from the bible isn't it? not saying there's anything wrong with that, but if i was all ticked off (i'm not by the way) about this subject, throwing some biblical wisdom at me would probably have me seeing read at this point. know what i mean?
Thorak 06-17-05, 01:01 PM	hey thorak. i know, i get it. count arioch already pointed this out to me and i did the whole mea culpa thing. now be a good christian and forgive me for my sins :) I was just getting my 2 copper in on the subject. As for forgiveness; I had never condemned you in the first place. All I was doing was pointing out what I saw as a hypocrisy, so that you could see it and either amend your position to one that was not hypocritical, or agree that it was hypocritical and change your opinion on the matter. And neither was done with the intent that you necessarily come to agree with me. Lord knows I ain't perfect either. .also, if someone has issues with religion, confronting them with a biblical allegory is probably not the best way to bring them around to your line of thinking . I find that very, very few people actually have issues with religion. They tend to have issues with dogma, or with the principles of specific organized churches. Those who do have issues with even the concept of religion are, IMHO, just as deluded by extremism as the extremist religious types. Just to pick on the one most often used for a moment, science; it's not incompatible with religion. They don't cross paths, and where they do overlap slightly, inconsistencies are easy to explain through their different methods. Religion explains why things happen, science how. When discussing, say, the origin of the universe, religion tells us why it was created, and science how. Sure, there are inconsistencies. The Bible's dating system is notoriously picked on. And that point is easily negated as an issue by assuming it to be a metaphorical account, rather than one meant to be scientifically accurate. Which it has no reason to be, not being scientific in nature. Similarly, science still can't explain why the Big Bang occurred, or what went on beforehand. that whole log in your eye thing is from the bible isn't it? not saying there's anything wrong with that, but if i was all ticked off (i'm not by the way) about this subject, throwing some biblical wisdom at me would probably have me seeing read at this point. know what i mean? The log in your eye thing is biblical, but that it's origin is biblical doesn't make it bad advice. It's like "do unto others as you would have then do unto you." That's biblical. Darn good sense, too. I deliberately avoided mentioning the log-eye thing as biblical, in case you were seeing red, but dismissing it just because it's biblical doesn't make any more sense than religious types dismissing something because it's not religious.
Andrew_980 06-17-05, 01:07 PM	If it is any consolation, i did start studying the occult before playing D+D. And I was even attending church regularly at that point. Of course my definition of occult contains some catholic practices, kabbala, christian and muslim mystism as well as wicca and the like
Gwenfloor 06-17-05, 02:04 PM	People who do crazy things and blame it on D&D, the problem is not D&D, it's from the crazy guy. If whatever a crazy person liked was a tool of evil, then nothing would be good. A ruthless serial killer may like Coca-Cola, sports cars, and fancy restaurants, but these 3 things do not contribute him to being ruthless. The stock market crashed in 1929, and it wrecked havoc on the economy, but does that make the stock market a tool of great evil? In short, I am saying that people who blame D&D for crazy actions are using a scapegoat to make themselves believe they are not wrong. Besides, people go crazy about the fact that magic is in D&D and Harry Potter, but magic does not exist in real life. Magic doesn't kill people, starvation, violence, and grief kills people. The Death Star in Star Wars is a tool of ultimate destruction, but in the real world you don't go worrying about the Earth blowing up by means of a giant death beam. Just my two cents.
Dathlue Mistwinter 06-17-05, 02:41 PM	Are you a christian gamer if so will you answer some questions I have. 1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? 1. Yes, none of them are the God of this world and I know that and can respect the idea of them because of that. 2. D&D IS an occult, and one I'm apart of. So, yes. 3. In funny ways. Girlfriend: Boo! (jumps out from somewhere) Me: Whoa! Natural 1 on my spot check! Me: Shh, everybody, you're giving me a -2 on listening through this door! I don't want to have to take a concentration check! 4. I ignore them; I'm indifferent. I have an okay relationship with my church's priest, who wants me to stop playing. I have to ignore it - I enjoy D&D too much to give it up and honestly see NO harm in it at all as long as I don't go out with a beat up longsword and kill people for their stuff.
Angered Roach 06-17-05, 02:48 PM	Are you a christian gamer if so will you answer some questions I have. 1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? 1. Yes, yes I do. A lot of my games are alternate history scenarios (I also tend to downplay Magic from it's D&D state, but it's still there), so it would be silly to cut out opposing religions that follow God, or "pagan" religions. But i've also done semi-standard D&D romps, and all the characters, were, of course, not Christian, Jewish, or Islamic, but that doesn't mean that myself, or anyone else at the table felt alienated over it. We're a religiously mixed group, we don't mind. It's a non-issue to us. 2. From Anti-D&D articles, yes. 3. I haven't played in a long time, and even when my friends and I did, it was semi-casual...meet and play when we feel like it, and when I, the DM, didn't feel like running a game, we found something else to do. 4. Most of them, I believe, have a priority issue. Instead of doing good unto the world, they have decided to attempt to bring "evil unto evil" (I am, of course, not suggesting that us gamers are evil.). I do not judge them, however, we are all brothers, and like all siblings, we don't always get along. But, in the end, we all have the same home, and we are still related.
StormKnight 06-17-05, 02:50 PM	I think the issue that many Christians (especially Christian parents) have with D&D and the occult is not so much that the game itself teaches anything specifically occult. Their problem is that, at least according to popular perception, the people playing the game are heavily into the occult. Now, most D&D players are not. Most of us get together and eat pizza and tell stories and have a some laughs and some good, clean fun. So that perception is flawed on the whole. ... All in all, I think parents should be WAY less worried about D&D than other RP genres. But it is the one that has gotten the most attention and has really gotten a bum deal in the PR department. I hear what you are saying. I don't agree though, that the problem some parents have with D&D is based on the people in it. I think most people that have a problem with D&D have NO IDEA why they have a problem with it. They have heard that its "bad" and accept that opinion without questioning. But, that's just my stray opinion. I'd love a chance to actually talk with someone who is against it and get there viewpoint...though it would probably not go well :) I'd also love to have a serious discussion to here the viewpoint of one of these "magic" is bad people...but that's a whole 'nother topic and really out of scope for these forums!
NeoRealist 06-17-05, 03:17 PM	Are you a christian gamer if so will you answer some questions I have. 1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? 1. Yes, i can differentiate between make believe deities and God, and have no problems following the conventions of a fictional setting while enjoying roleplaying in said setting. 2. no, except for that silly website that is forbidden to mention here. (with good reason in my opinion too) 3. no. 4. i feel a great swell of pity towards the misguided people who judge things they aren't familiar enough with to make a logical statement about.
andrathar 06-17-05, 03:37 PM	Are you a christian gamer if so will you answer some questions I have. 1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? 2. Have you ever heard of a cult originating from dnd? 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? 1. Yes, I do. Make-believe has no bearing on my reality. 2. No. 3. No, its just a diversion for me. Worst thing I've ever encountered in 25+ years of gaming was a kid that crumpled up his character sheet and ran up the stairs after a character death when I was in the sixth grade. 4. Some of them have made the best gamers; I've converted a few in my time.
elven warriorXX 06-17-05, 04:25 PM	Are you a christian gamer if so will you answer some questions I have. 1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? becuse it is good to get away and play as thought you in a new world not one like earth. no no but just AS seriously i hate them. they should play the game BEFORE they say it is bad and not let there kids play it. i just hate those people
arphaxad 06-17-05, 04:41 PM	The dating system, is in my opinion metaphorical, you can see it in geneologies especially, pruposeful exclusion of names to make sure that you get 3 or 4 sets of seven generations to Jesus. As far as science, there are a lot of opinions out there even within the scientific community, I think a lot of the current additude of science is left over garbage from the enlightenment, that man can know everything, and thus we have to have a firm position on everything at all times even if it turns out to be wrong later. I think in reality, science says X, religion says Y, in reality it's Z both religion and science merged, in a way no one would have thought. Also the predetermined biases of science tend to make me wary, especially with the number of materialists in the field, people simply have the habit of finding what they want to find. I personally don't beleive in a big bang simply for logical reasons, galaxies move in all directions, and we haven't truly seen an edge to the universe to my knowledge (what would that even look like?). Just to pick on the one most often used for a moment, science; it's not incompatible with religion. They don't cross paths, and where they do overlap slightly, inconsistencies are easy to explain through their different methods. Religion explains why things happen, science how. When discussing, say, the origin of the universe, religion tells us why it was created, and science how. Sure, there are inconsistencies. The Bible's dating system is notoriously picked on. And that point is easily negated as an issue by assuming it to be a metaphorical account, rather than one meant to be scientifically accurate. Which it has no reason to be, not being scientific in nature. Similarly, science still can't explain why the Big Bang occurred, or what went on beforehand.
MissCalculation 06-17-05, 04:45 PM	1. It's just a game. 2. No. It's anti-D&D-propaganda 3. No. 4. Christians shouldn't have prejudices
Shemeska the Marauder 06-17-05, 05:30 PM	As far as science, there are a lot of opinions out there even within the scientific community, I think a lot of the current additude of science is left over garbage from the enlightenment, that man can know everything, and thus we have to have a firm position on everything at all times even if it turns out to be wrong later. I think in reality, science says X, religion says Y, in reality it's Z both religion and science merged, in a way no one would have thought. There are indeed questions that science is unlikely to ever be able to answer, simply based on the nature of the question. We're not likely to find a limit to what we can know regarding the physical universe however anytime soon. Also the predetermined biases of science tend to make me wary, especially with the number of materialists in the field, people simply have the habit of finding what they want to find. I personally don't beleive in a big bang simply for logical reasons, galaxies move in all directions, and we haven't truly seen an edge to the universe to my knowledge (what would that even look like?). What predetermined biases? As a scientist (and a Christian) I don't see what you mean. And the universe doesn't have an edge. It's finite but unbound (yes it's possible) and currently expanding as far as we can tell based on observations. Space itself is expanding; for there to be an edge there has to be something outside of it for that to expand into or be bound by, and by the very nature of the universe that's not possible within our 4 dimensional reality. For what it's worth, the Catholic Church doesn't dispute modern science in the least, the Big Bang as an example, and more recently evolution via natural selection, etc.
wordserpent 06-17-05, 05:57 PM	Thank you for all of your replies. I am asking these questions because I am a christian and my christian mother is worried about these things. :thinks: But she is especiallyworried about the magic part like casting spells and all the violence. Could you give me some tips on these topics also. :) Play a Role Playing game that is Not Dungeons and Dragons and does not contain polytheism or magic. Does your mom object to Star Wars? Although the Force could be misinterpreted as magic. There are also D20 Modern, Apocalypse and a few other sci-fi games you might try. Alternately you might design a Campaign Setting with only One God and where magic is evil. Clerics would be God's followers and would have access to Miracles (i.e. devine magic) and wizards and sorcerers would get their powers from the Devil. Sorcerers would be required to have a feindish creature for a framiliar who would teach them spells. But they would be the bad guys, the villans. Wizards would require spell componants and Focii for all of thier spells but could take neutral alignments (but would still go to hell when they died because they weren't following Gods will). Of course Druids might find things difficult unless they are a sect of nature revearing Clerics who worship God but have ties to nature instead of being able to turn undead.
StormKnight 06-17-05, 06:09 PM	i hate them. they should play the game BEFORE they say it is bad and not let there kids play it. i just hate those people While I tend to disagree with some people, I don't think this is a sensible attitude. You don't have to experience some things directly to judge them, if you are judging on attributes that are apparent without experiencing them. To take a less personal topic, let's say for example that I dissaprove of the environmental practices of a dog food packaging plant. I can object to that and refuse to buy that brand of dog food without ever needing to buy it and feed it to my dog. There is nothing wrong with that. I CANNOT justly say "that food made my dog sick" or "pets hate that food, no one should buy it" without ever having fed it to my dog. A person who believes that referencing dieties other than their own, even in a fictional context, is harmful or against their beliefs, can object to something that they know, or have solid reason to believe (such as putting out a book called "Dieties and Demigods") references dieties other than their own. However, they cannot reasonably object to the content other than that.
Zyfax 06-17-05, 06:11 PM	Are you a christian gamer if so will you answer some questions I have. 1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? 1: Yes. I also enjoy playing clerics. Why? because it's fiction, written by people who really doesn't believe in it and say so. (if they HAD believed in it, I would have something against them and their game (saw some really freaky systems/worlds once)). in fact, I can even think of LARP:ing priests of made-up religions. I wouldn't believe it for a second (I made it), but I guess it might be a bit over the top, so I'll try to atone somehow. 2: no. that would in fact be weird. In a weird way I can think of people sitting in their basement and worshipping nerull...no, it doesn't make sense. if it in fact DID exist, they would never get any respect from me...ever. 3: sadly, yeah. after trying to stat down some swedish politicians, and getting referred to as an undead, because I lack a life, and therefore have no con-score. I have toned it down, but it's still there somewhere. 4: sad. if my mother got a hold on their propaganda, she WOULD believe it, but she trusts me, and since we don't live in the US the propaganda's non-existent here. I've read for example dark dungeons, and that would probably turn more people off of cristianity than D&D. all said and done, I live in a country where atheism is the norm, and I basically get frowned upon for being a cristian, more than I would EVER get for being a gamer. in fact, this made me the oddity of our playing group.
allenchan 06-17-05, 06:12 PM	Are you a christian gamer if so will you answer some questions I have. 1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? Yes I do consider myself Christian 1. Yes. Because its a game. I play tons of video games where you are a mythical person/diety/of a faith other then christianity (just about every game) too. 2. No. 3. Uhh... no. 4. I feel they are idiotic right-winged intolerant zealots who are too evangelical in their interpretations on what is 'good' or 'bad' and try to impose their views on people of other beliefs. They probably think star wars is evil, too, because Jedis are teaching our children unchristian things about spirituality.
elven warriorXX 06-17-05, 06:30 PM	4. I feel they are idiotic right-winged intolerant zealots who are too evangelical in their interpretations on what is 'good' or 'bad' and try to impose their views on people of other beliefs. They probably think star wars is evil, too, because Jedis are teaching our children unchristian things about spirituality. you go!!!! :w00t: :w00t: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :bow: :bow:
Thorak 06-17-05, 08:37 PM	The dating system, is in my opinion metaphorical, you can see it in geneologies especially, pruposeful exclusion of names to make sure that you get 3 or 4 sets of seven generations to Jesus. What a lot of the Young Earth Creationists forget is that the theory that the earth was created in 4004 B.C. isn't in the Bible. It's a guess made by one Bishop Ussher in the 17th Century, albeit a well-researched one. If the texts Ussher based his claim on were all entirely factual and accurate, he could be right. That many of them are likely inaccurate in the details and also likely metaphor or parable says that his guess is likely off. To the degree that every major sect of Christianity today, up to and including the Catholic Church, has abandoned Ussher's chronology. And without Ussher's chronology, and the almost certainly erroneous assumptions that backed it, there's absolutely no reason to deny the scientific evidence that the earth is billions of years old. As far as science, there are a lot of opinions out there even within the scientific community, I think a lot of the current additude of science is left over garbage from the enlightenment, that man can know everything, and thus we have to have a firm position on everything at all times even if it turns out to be wrong later. I think in reality, science says X, religion says Y, in reality it's Z both religion and science merged, in a way no one would have thought. I disagree, in a way. A lot of the current attitude in science is a new creation; many Enlightenment scientists were very much Christian. Heck, a large number of them were Jesuit ministers, better educated in Christian theology than most others of the cloth. IMHO, the attitude is a relatively recent one that's grown over the last hundred years. And it's not so much that "man can know everything" that's the problem; it's that science is the only acceptable way to know anything. Which is bunk; we know that killing is wrong. I dare you to prove it scientifically. If anything, I could cite carnivores and say that killing is obviously natural, and that humans are merely a higher order animal. The issue is that religion and science overlap, but are not incompatible, despite the claims of certain extremists on both sides. Again, much like art and math. Though, oddly, in that case it's the extremists who claim that math is art, and vice versa. Also the predetermined biases of science tend to make me wary, especially with the number of materialists in the field, people simply have the habit of finding what they want to find. I personally don't beleive in a big bang simply for logical reasons, galaxies move in all directions, and we haven't truly seen an edge to the universe to my knowledge (what would that even look like?). "Science" doesn't have any biases. Science is a methodology. Scientists, however, do. As for your logical reasons; galaxies move in all directions because the gravity of the various bits pulls on the other bits. This pulls some galaxies around and makes them travel other than directly away from the explosion for the same reason that throwing a ball upwards, it will eventually change direction and go down. The only difference is the speed of the vector change (in other words, the acceleration due to the gravity involved), and that the gravity isn't staying more or less the same throughout. And, for not seeing an edge to the universe; the edge would be expanding at close to the speed of light; it's the fastest-moving material there is. We can't see it because it's expanding too quickly. Picture this; a vacuum-filled bottomless pit with a gravity equal to earth's, yourself, and a ball. Drop the ball. Wait 6 seconds. Jump after it. Let me know when you catch up to the ball. That's a poor example for several reasons, but it serves to illustrate it. You'll never catch the ball because it's going as fast as you, and left earlier. The edge of the universe is somewhat the same, though the theory is that is slowing down, and thus will at some time become visible. We just haven't gotten to that point yet.
allenchan 06-17-05, 08:43 PM	That's a poor example for several reasons, but it serves to illustrate it. You'll never catch the ball because it's going as fast as you, and left earlier. The edge of the universe is somewhat the same, though the theory is that is slowing down, and thus will at some time become visible. We just haven't gotten to that point yet. Nice post. :) And didn't think discove that quarks or something had weight, which means gravity, so eventually when the universe stops expanding it will being to pull back in on itself, and, eventually, implode? (quite possibly causing another big bang)
Roreck 06-17-05, 08:50 PM	And didn't think discove that quarks or something had weight, which means gravity, so eventually when the universe stops expanding it will being to pull back in on itself, and, eventually, implode? (quite possibly causing another big bang) as I recall there is a theory that will happen in truth. And another theory that states that has already happened before. As I recall this theory states the universe started as the ball of engery that expolded into the universe than the universe imploded back into the ball of engery and another big bang occured and than the universe imploded again into the ball of engery, and you get the idea. The premise is the universe is in a cyclic rate of change. oh I don't really remember where I heard this so I may be making it up and just be crazy but w/e
Great Cthulhu 06-17-05, 08:55 PM	Are you a christian gamer if so will you answer some questions I have. 1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? 1. Yes. I feel that it makes the game more fantasy. 2. No. 3. I get excited sometimes, but not to a psycho degree. 4. I think they should at least find out more about the game.
the black knight 06-17-05, 09:05 PM	Are you a christian gamer if so will you answer some questions I have. 1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? Dude, nobody gives a **** about that anymore; you're twenty years too late. But if, on the off chance such people are still out there and do in fact care about such retro fads, tell THEM they're twenty years too late.
Roreck 06-17-05, 09:12 PM	Dude, nobody gives a **** about that anymore; you're twenty years too late. But if, on the off chance such people are still out there and do in fact care about such retro fads, tell THEM they're twenty years too late. sadly enough their are still those who do cling to the old hatreds. Until the day when fire rained from the sky and a new enemy was...sorry I have been playing to much Warcraft 3. anyway take a look at the man we are not supposed to mention (chick) as well as the ignorant bible thumpers who are out to get those darn non-believers and homosexuals. My personal thoughts (expressed best by the words of another): "you'd think people would be a little more tolerant of others in this day and age. (sigh) I guess stupidity and ignorance will never go out of style" Carth Onasi
Braids 06-17-05, 09:22 PM	Are you a christian gamer if so will you answer some questions I have. 1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? 1. Yes, I do. As long as I recognize that they are in no way real I have no problem with them. 2. No. 3. I like to take my characters pretty seriously...though not like I'd take the rest of my life. 4. I explain my views on the problems.
Wizards_White_Knight 06-17-05, 10:06 PM	This thread is really good. I am a new Born again (3 weeks old) and I have been considering DnD. This thread, while from a bias opinion, has been helpful. I have been doing a Theology course since the beginning of the year, and I am learning more and more about the bible as the days go by. I believe a lot of the Christian anti-DnD "propaganda" comes from the Old Testament. Now, I would flat out disagree with anyone who said that the Old Testament is irrelavent since Jesus coming, but I would agree that it is not to be taken as it is written. It's all about context (that word becomes your best friend in a course like mine). God speaks against magic. He specifically mentions Deviners, necromancers, transmuters and sorcerers. I would go find a direct qoute, but I am on school holidays, and I'd rather not pick up my bible with the intent to prove a point. :D Also, a poster 2 or 3 before me was totally inconsiderate, and made me wonder about thier intelligence. Had this poster read the thread before making inane statements, they'd have realised that the OP is currently dealing with someone who is concerned about these issues. And that person is his mother. So he can't very much say "No mum, I will be playing DnD, because quite frankly, you should have brought this up with me 20 years ago". *Firm believer of having nothing intelligent or helpful to say, just don't say it. Especially when on the internet, it takes time and effort to say something* I want to thank everyone for thier opinions on this matter. I hope it helps the OP as much as it helped me. :)
Hengwrt Ellesmere 06-17-05, 10:20 PM	"Are you a christian gamer if so will you answer some questions I have. 1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before?" Catholic Christian here. 1. Yes, because Tolkien did, as did Chaucer before him. In a Christian fantasy world, the deities represent various forces in tension, yet still under the ineffable control of the one God. 2. No. Real "occult" practices bear no resemblance to the magic of D&D or Harry Potter or Pokemon. However the fact that the OP referred to it as "an occult" makes me wonder whether he even knows what the word means. 3. I take it about as seriously as Tolkien took his own fantasy creations. 4. They bear an uncanny resemblance to the "Christians" who hanged innocent people in Salem because of some unsubstantiated rumors.
arphaxad 06-17-05, 10:56 PM	That's a possible explanation I suppose, assuming the big bang happened in the first place. The problem is that there's no real stick in the ground saying this is 0mph. I find it highly unlikely that any two points are moving at a little more than half the speed of light in opposite directions, if even moving that fast is possible for anything except for energy. I remain skeptical. Taking the same analogy of the ball, say they were both shot in opposite directions, at 60% of the speed of light, at what point would they cease to see each be visible to each other? Assuming we aren't moving at a speed infitismally close to the speed of light wouldn't the light from the big bang gone past us (light from the big bang moving at the speed of light, while the matter moves at just under the speed of light) thus allowing us to see the edge of a very early universe? Say hundreds of balls were flung about from a huge central explosion, one ball trails another by a few feet, both are moving at 99% of the speed of light, at what point would the area byond the farthest ball no longer visible from the trailing ball? regardless of wheter it has light or not, and assuming we aren't moving past the speed of light, it would still be visible. About your analogy, sure you will never catch up, but light and matter do not move at the same speed, if the ball is the light from the big bang, it will constantly gain ground on the observer. For example (kind of like the example before) two astronuats push off from each other, and throw one ball at each other every second, what second would a astronaut cease seeing a ball? assuming the ball moves faster than the astronaut. I think we have other issues to deal with if the astronaut is moving faster. Obviously the interval will decrease with distance, but it would never wholly cease, would it? The only kind of scientist I claim to be is political, so clearly I don't have a degree in astrophysics, I'm just trying to look at this with a clear perspective. My examples might be wrong, or flawed it wouldn't surprise me, I'm just trying to think it through myself. And, for not seeing an edge to the universe; the edge would be expanding at close to the speed of light; it's the fastest-moving material there is. We can't see it because it's expanding too quickly. Picture this; a vacuum-filled bottomless pit with a gravity equal to earth's, yourself, and a ball. Drop the ball. Wait 6 seconds. Jump after it. Let me know when you catch up to the ball. That's a poor example for several reasons, but it serves to illustrate it. You'll never catch the ball because it's going as fast as you, and left earlier. The edge of the universe is somewhat the same, though the theory is that is slowing down, and thus will at some time become visible. We just haven't gotten to that point yet.
Shemeska the Marauder 06-17-05, 11:28 PM	Assuming we aren't moving at a speed infitismally close to the speed of light wouldn't the light from the big bang gone past us (light from the big bang moving at the speed of light, while the matter moves at just under the speed of light) thus allowing us to see the edge of a very early universe? Like I said, there isn't an edge. And another thing, you can only see out from where you are to a point equal in light years to as old as the universe is, because light from those points would take that period of time to reach earth. And since the structure of space is expanding at some unknown speed not bound by the speed of light, you'll never be able to see beyond that radius simply because of the nature of light (assuming a constant speed). Also, the universe was expanding rapidly for a period before light was physically capable of being formed as seperate particles and/or of visual wavelengths. I'd say more, but it's really not my area of science. I'm a biologist, not a cosmologist. Another limit on how far you could see from any given point.
ILL34GL3 06-17-05, 11:37 PM	Are you a christian gamer if so will you answer some questions I have. 1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why? 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd? 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game? 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before? 1. No. I also boycott any creative work that mentions false gods. Just because God gave me the ability to reason doesn't mean he wants me to use it. 2. Yes. It happens all of the time. http://***************/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp 3. No. Jack Chick has warned me of this danger though. 4. I follow a revealed religion without actually experiencing any real revelation so why should I hold anything against others who hold beliefs that are based on absolutely nothing but hearsay?
Edymnion 06-17-05, 11:45 PM	1. Do you still use deities even though your christian?why?Yes. Because it is a game. The ten commandments says "You shall have no other gods before me", not "I will smite you if you even think about there being anybody else, even in jest." 2. Have you ever heard of an occult originating from dnd?No, I haven't. I have yet to hear of a SINGLE case of ANYONE EVER becoming some occult person BECAUSE of D&D. No more than I have ever heard of a single person being converted by a "Jesus Saves" bumpersticker. 3. Do you take the game more seriously than a game?No, of course not. The only people that do that are the mentally ill that would take ANYTHING as being more than it really is. You never see news reports of people that said their poker deck told them to kill people. 4. How do you feel about the christian attackers of the game who never even played it before?To be honest? They're a bunch of closed minded, hate spewing bigots. Jesus taught mercy, loving the sinner (not the sin), and turning the other cheek. Anyone that gets up and starts spewing off that anybody is going straight to hell for something as silly as a game do not represent the religion they say they do. I don't know what religion they're promoting, but the founder of my Christianity didn't preach that exclusive "I'm better than you" nonsense. He went and ate dinner with tax collectors and prostitutes, because those were the people that needed saving, he didn't preach to the choir. Founder of my religion said "By your faith, you have been saved", not "You lived a perfect life, so you're in, but not you, you're icky".
Attila 06-17-05, 11:49 PM	I think you have a point about the ball example IF the edge of the universe was emitting light, but I really don't see why it would. The edge of the universe is just empty space. [Disclaimer: NOT an astrophysicist] Back on topic, I think we should at least make it LOOK like we're OT :D The best way to deal with it is to show people the inside of the books and what the game is about. IIRC, the anti-D&D fad faded as soon as the people started looking at the books for themselves instead of relying on what certain people (no, I don't mean chic) were telling them was in it. Now there maybe a few individuals out there that still believe D&D is anti-this or that, but they have a right to believe as they wish--of course you may enlighten them with the truth. In my experience, Christians make up a substantial percentage of D&D players. Non-Christians have been a rarity in my groups and that's purely by chance as religion is never a topic of conversation among prospective gamers and only occasionaly pops up among regulars when discussing scheduling issues.
arphaxad 06-17-05, 11:52 PM	Like I said, there isn't an edge. And another thing, you can only see out from where you are to a point equal in light years to as old as the universe is, because light from those points would take that period of time to reach earth. And since the structure of space is expanding at some unknown speed not bound by the speed of light, you'll never be able to see beyond that radius simply because of the nature of light (assuming a constant speed). Also, the universe was expanding rapidly for a period before light was physically capable of being formed as seperate particles and/or of visual wavelengths. I'd say more, but it's really not my area of science. I'm a biologist, not a cosmologist. Another limit on how far you could see from any given point. Why wouldn't the universe be bound by the speed of light? If the speed of light is indeed binding at all. Doesn't time slow as we approach the speed of light (I've seen numerous things to demostrate this)? Wouldn't this effect remain for us despite whatever rules scientists feel the big bang can ignore. So we know that we're going slower than the speed of light because time isn't going backward. If we truly can see a radius of lightyearsXage of the universe in years we should at least be able to see the big bang on one edge and black nothingness on the other (assuming equipment to see that far). As far as light not being formed yet, I have a hard time as not seeing that as reaching for straws. I thought we agreed and then you confused me.
Attila 06-17-05, 11:53 PM	Ok, I'm going to allow the thread to stay open just as long as the following occurs: 1) No links or discussion about Jack Chick. 2) No in-depth analysis and critiques of religions. Keep the discussion to D&D and external influences that religion has on it and things should be fine. The main thing is that this thread is not to turn into a religion slamming thread. 3) Keep you posts on the subjct of the thread, not other guests. Otherwise it will be considered Baiting, which is against the Code of Conduct. Thanks. Prepare for locking. :D
arphaxad 06-17-05, 11:57 PM	We would see it by exclusion I suppose, I suppose it would look like a little bit of light then nothing. As Far as being on topic, meh, the topic doesn't interest me, the guy sets up a contriversial topic, and walks away, poster only a couple days old, I don't feel like dancing to that drum. I think you have a point about the ball example IF the edge of the universe was emitting light, but I really don't see why it would. The edge of the universe is just empty space. [Disclaimer: NOT an astrophysicist] Back on topic, I think we should at least make it LOOK like we're OT :D The best way to deal with it is to show people the inside of the books and what the game is about. IIRC, the anti-D&D fad faded as soon as the people started looking at the books for themselves instead of relying on what certain people (no, I don't mean chic) were telling them was in it. Now there maybe a few individuals out there that still believe D&D is anti-this or that, but they have a right to believe as they wish--of course you may enlighten them with the truth. In my experience, Christians make up a substantial percentage of D&D players. Non-Christians have been a rarity in my groups and that's purely by chance as religion is never a topic of conversation among prospective gamers and only occasionaly pops up among regulars when discussing scheduling issues.