Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NeueRegel 07-28-05, 11:35 AM	Is there a "Realism" Board? In the 3.5 format? I know it sounds ridiculous, but a lot of us are "crying" for it. I know the old-timers had to sell out, to sell the new game. It's all about money. It's all about X-box, now. Fine. But some of the designers that "bowed" know what I mean. Real Gaming. I'm hoping that some-one-any of then will message me, in private. Gary had it right. Before. Game mechanics have improved, 100%. But the flavor is gone. Any alternatives? Based on the game now, but the old game, too? Please? (yes, I wanted to cite 1,000 things, but I'm going to play a character, "that I'm above that".)
Seeker95 07-28-05, 06:16 PM	Gary had it right. Before. Game mechanics have improved, 100%. But the flavor is gone.If flavor is gone from your game, blame your DM. Not the rules.
Santrilla 07-28-05, 06:17 PM	If flavor is gone from your game, blame your DM. Not the rules. Seeker has it right. These days, you have to make the flavour yourself instead of having it done for you.
TheErsatzFacsimileOfMe 07-28-05, 06:31 PM	They brought the crunch....do you forget to add fluff...?
smrtgmp 07-29-05, 01:50 AM	I dont know about you, but my game has an assload of flavor. I dont need someone else to provide it for me. However, that doesnt mean that he havent been provided flavorful material. The eberron campaign setting, for instance, is far more flavorful than anything Gary ever put out. And no offense to Gygax, but the game is much better now than it ever was under his watch. He had a good idea, and he should be credited for getting the ball rolling, but the man was far from perfect. IMO this is another example of glorifiying the "good old days."
green_yawgmoth 07-29-05, 02:11 AM	Everything was better in the past, and it keeps getting worse. Back in my day, we had to walk FIFTEEN MILES uphill in the snow to roleplay, and we LIKED IT! hey you kids, get offa my lawn! :P http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Vaalingrade Ashland 07-29-05, 02:25 AM	Gary had it right. Before. Game mechanics have improved, 100%. But the flavor is gone. Don't worry, they still try to cram bad flavor down your throat like you were fois gras in the form of alignment and spell descriptions.
smrtgmp 07-29-05, 03:18 AM	Everything was better in the past, and it keeps getting worse. Back in my day, we had to walk FIFTEEN MILES uphill in the snow to roleplay, and we LIKED IT! hey you kids, get offa my lawn! :P:rofl: lmfao
Santrilla 07-29-05, 04:56 AM	Everything was better in the past, and it keeps getting worse. Back in my day, we had to walk FIFTEEN MILES uphill in the snow to roleplay, and we LIKED IT! hey you kids, get offa my lawn! :P http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif You had SNOW? Ohh, you young whippersnappers, don't know real suffering if it hit you in the face. We had to SWIM to our roleplaying session for 30 miles, and we didn't even have a DM in those days! Speak up, sonny, my hearing aid's on the fritz again.
Veomyr 07-29-05, 08:54 AM	Try gaming when you've got dinosaurs eatting your players. Anyone who had a character above 3rd level was a pro. (and ran fast)
NeueRegel 07-29-05, 09:12 AM	If flavor is gone from your game, blame your DM. Not the rules. We work within the rules. It's the flavour of the rules that are gone, missing. The "buy whatever magic item you can think of" is the crux of the problem. The "choose from somebody else's PrC idea" (1 of 100 now) is the problem. The "choose any silly race" because it's uber-whatever is the problem. We play withing the mechanics of the 3.5 rules because they are so much better. Let's write that up to 20 years of feedback, and some great designers, and some great mathematicians. But the game used to have some internal "common sense", which it is now lacking. Pure Core, it's still not too bad; add in anything else, the "Complete" series included, and it becomes simply silly. Playing monsters. Playing undead monsters. Playing LA +uber monsters. It's friggin silly. A magic store on every corner of every hamlet. "Get your vorpal blade here!". Cuz I can think of it, my character deserves it? That was my anger. Gygax didn't balance gold values in the old stuff, because he didn't ever envision being able to buy magic. That's the "flavour" that is gone, that angers us so much. (Us, you say? Everyone, all 20 or so of us, that play; a very minor %, I admit). Anywho, I apologize to one and all that enjoy your games, as they are now. We are dinosaurs. We will try to lie down quietly. We will play our game, and you play yours. I'm not crossposting this, like I did my first rant, because (first nobody even had a clue that there was a "what was"), and secondly, I'm not here to win any brownie points in any case. Our game has more flavour in years than years most have you have lived. ;) NeueRegel
Phrennzy 07-29-05, 10:55 AM	We work within the rules. It's the flavour of the rules that are gone, missing. ... Our game has more flavour in years than years most have you have lived. ;) What the hell are you talking about? This is why I never drink and post.
StilenX 07-29-05, 11:09 AM	:heehee Help prevent drunk posting! Stop the rambling that confuse people :D On a side note, I think that really, I know what you mean, but that seams to be what the players of today want - uber characters to do uber stuff for fun. DnD is not supposed to be about realism, it is suppose to be about fun, and I think the modern style of play is just as good as it was back when the dinos preyed upon those who slipped and fell down the icy hill on there way to the roleplaying session.
NeueRegel 07-29-05, 11:25 AM	A couple of "chuckles" aside, Yes, to quote (paraphrase) you: "This is what D&D is today". Once, it was, "What if there was a dash of magic in the real world?". Now, it's, "What if there is a total disregard for REAL LIFE in a world of magic?" Physics. Psychology. Etc. "Feats" (I really should say PrC abilities) are overcoming gravity, thought, name it. Everybody complains that it takes 3 years to fashion plate armor. I don't have a problem with magic, but, if you get plate armor from a god/npc, that forges is out of the water of the lady of the lake right there, fine. Don't try this at home. A winged dragon-human? In town? "Oh, I'm a PC, Ignore me". Let's see: should I spend some money on land, and title, or, the Hammer of Thor, (the better one, with 'speed')? The game RULES make me sick. Not the game. Not you players, that this is all you know. The RAW rules are far better than we had. The Flavour of those rules has been tainted, to sell the game to the X-box generation. "Me-me-me!!!"... And I know. I'm beating my head against a wall. And I'm not using the smiley; I expect people to READ. NeueRegel
Zherog 07-29-05, 12:17 PM	A winged dragon-human? In town? "Oh, I'm a PC, Ignore me". *shrug* IF I were to allow a half-dragon into my game (I probably would, but it would depend on circumstances), you can bet your sweet ass that the character is going to get harassed in every city, angry mobs will show up at the door of the inn, and nobody will trust him or his fellow party members. And that's only if the winged dragon-human was even able to get into the town. And the same holds true for any other "weird" race or template. Hell - the same holds true for a some of the PHB races in some places in my world. Halflings are often stereotyped as thieves, and are frowned upon, watched closely, etc. Half orcs get discriminated against because of their orc heritage - even after they prove themselves "worthy" of respect in a lot of cases. As for buying magic items... minor trinkets and potions and minor scrolls and that sort of thing are often readily available. Want something more expensive, such as a +1 flaming burst rapier? You better spend some time and money in game tracking down a source. And you better watch how you track down a source, because if the wrong person learns that you have 18,000 gold pieces, you're not going to have it for long. Sure, once you make a contact, you might have an easier time of things. But don't presume that magic shops are on every corner, and anybody can waltz in and purchase a Tome of Leadership and Influece +5 whenever they want. The item is available (assuming the city you're in can support it), but you have to find it. On the topic of prestige classes: I often design my own now. As a DM, I regularly ask my players about their goals, both in character and out of character. I design the games around these goals, and I design prestige classes around what the player wants to do. Sometimes it's just a tweak to an existing class (such as some small changes I made to the Arcane Archer for one of my players). Sometimes it's taking the flavor of a class, but giving it different abilities (like the Arcane Trickster I re-did for a player, because she didn't think it was "arcane" enough. Oh - did I mention it actually became harder to get into?). Sometimes, I need to design a whole new class, because the concept doesn't exist (like the Divine Trickster I created before WotC released theirs). Sometimes, I use a class as-is, because it's exactly what the player wants. The only PrCs that are approved carte blanche, though, in my campaign are the ones in the DMG. And even those are likely to get tweaked - see the above note about the Arcane Archer. Any other prestige class you want to take requires my permission before you take it. Personally, I'd prefer most books to be 80% crunch. I have no problems coming up with my own flavor - and in fact, I prefer it. I don't want WotC telling me how somebody in Prestige Class X looks, acts, etc. I'll decide that. Give me the basic mechanics of the class, then shut up. I agree with Seeker and everybody else. If your game lacks flavor and distinctiveness, blame your DM not WotC.
Phrennzy 07-29-05, 12:23 PM	So you like the rules. And your game has enough flavor. So what are you talking about? Are you complaining that OTHER people are playing 'wrong'? That they will buy Thor's hammer when you think they shouldn't? Is this one of those crazy, "Everyone else is playing wrong" threads? Once, it was, "What if there was a dash of magic in the real world?". Now, it's, "What if there is a total disregard for REAL LIFE in a world of magic?" No, it was never that. Since 1st edition there was magic and crazy monsters and rules that defied reality (hit points, falling damage). That hasn't changed. What has changed is that the rules are more 'pinned down' - there is less of a need for a DM to 'make it up on the fly'. 3rd ed is like some kind of Rules Lawyer's revenge on an inconsistant DM. The rulebooks have ALWAYS been 'suggestions'. You can allow or disallow as needed. I never did find the section that lets the Players buy items straight out of the book - no mention of magic stores. Just becuase Level Adjustments are printed in the monster manual doesn't mean you have to use them. We don't. No monstrous PCs because they're monsters! That's our groups choice. If you want to have a group with an illithid cleric, a drow wizard, a half-dragon/barbazu fighter and a xorn rogue, go ahead. The beauty of D&D is the options. And the best thing about the options is that they are OPTIONAL.
Seeker95 07-29-05, 12:57 PM	The "buy whatever magic item you can think of" is the crux of the problem.Again, I would blame your DM if s/he allows you to buy whatever you want.The "choose from somebody else's PrC idea" (1 of 100 now) is the problem.Last time I read the DMG, it explicitly listed PrCs as optional, and went so far as to indicate that a PrC was a DM-driven concept that should be offered only if it fits the DM's world. So, if this is a problem in your game, blame your DMThe "choose any silly race" because it's uber-whatever is the problem.Once again, you are stepping outside the rules and blaming the publishers of the game for having a bad DM. If your DM permits any race, and this is a problem for your game, it's your DM's fault.Pure Core, it's still not too bad; add in anything else, the "Complete" series included, and it becomes simply silly.Yet again you blame the publishers for offering more optional ideas. It is the DM that serves as the gatekeeper for *everything* that comes into the game. Non-core material is optional. It expands on the buffet of options. At a buffet restaurant, if you try to mix everything on the buffet onto a single plate, you'll get a stomach ache. Add every supplement to your game, and you'll get a bloated world. And the blame for such a world lies squarely on the shoulders of the DM, not the publisher.Anywho, I apologize to one and all that enjoy your games, as they are now.Maybe we just have a better DM than you have. As for dinosaurs... I've been playing D&D since 1978. The rules are the best they have ever been. And my game is just as fun as it has always been. I filter which optional rules can come into my world. My players do not get to buy (major) magic in all but the largest cities, and even then must brave the dangers that come from letting the public know you have the money to offer for such items in the first place.
smrtgmp 07-29-05, 07:46 PM	I started playing in '87 at age 7, so I'm not exactly new to the game. I've played each of the previous editions. I'll agree that Gygax gave you more flavor, but thats not neccesarrily a good thing. I agree with just about everything Zherog said, so there is no sense in repeating it.
WizO_Cat 07-29-05, 11:47 PM	Really, this belongs on the D&D General board. I'll move it there.
Someone 07-30-05, 12:31 AM	Ah, yes, back in the day when fighters proficient in the whatsamajig were uncommon, and those who specialized in it rarer still. Though you do make a point that 3e started the whole "and this is how you do it, folks" part. My memories are fading, but seemed like a lot more stuff "just happens" or "just is" back then. I guess 3e is just a victim of its own success- there are a lot more things you can do, so its shifted to "which thing to do" instead of "how do I do this thing".
Attila 07-30-05, 12:40 AM	Sometimes we just need to vent. I suspect that's all the OP needed to do. Just because 3e is tightly knit and more rules heavy than previous editions doesn't mean the DM can check his brain at the door and let the game run itself. The DM has to control things as much as ever and when he does, it solves every problem the OP was complaining about.
ImmortalBlueMage 07-30-05, 12:51 AM	And I know. I'm beating my head against a wall. And I'm not using the smiley; I expect people to READ. Hey wow, thanks for being so obnoxious, saves me the time of having to care about what you say.
WizO_Cat 07-30-05, 12:56 AM	Ok, let's keep the discussion to the subject matter of the thread, not other guests. Otherwise, I'm going to have to close the thread and send out Official Warns to the violators. Just a friendly reminder.
green_yawgmoth 07-30-05, 01:18 AM	Ok, let's keep the discussion to the subject matter of the thread, not other guests. Otherwise, I'm going to have to close the thread and send out Official Warns to the violators. Just a friendly reminder. In my "expert" opinion, I'd go with that right now. The OP is a self-important oldbie who thinks that his problems with flavor in his game are everyone else's fault, and it's really hard to respond to that without using the same sarcasm. But that's just my prediction. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
weasel fierce 07-30-05, 01:26 AM	If you want the flavour of oD&D or AD&D, play oD&D or AD&D. Thats what I did. For everything else, there is Runequest
WizO_Cat 07-30-05, 02:08 AM	In my "expert" opinion, I'd go with that right now. The OP is a self-important oldbie who thinks that his problems with flavor in his game are everyone else's fault, and it's really hard to respond to that without using the same sarcasm. But that's just my prediction. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif After all, I've seen some pretty intelligent response in this thread that didn't resort to sarcasm. Note that I didn't say everyone was guilt of that. However, if those that do continue posting on the sarcasm wagon are going to end up with an Official Warn in their e-mail box. It's called exercising restraint or suffering the consequences. As for my subject on the matter, I've been around playing D&D since 1980. Yeah, I guess that there was more on the flavor of the class, but that was due to that you really had fewer resources available to you. As others have noted, if you and your group want to capture that feeling again, just agree to limiting the amount of PrCs (if any PrC) and maybe even base classes. Actually, Unearthed Arcana has those type of options in it. (Making Paladin a PrC class, making Ranger a PrC class, etc) Just agree to have the four original classes in your game: Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, and Rogue. Heck, even without any special rules, that's usually the classes that the majority of players select. (You could possibly throw in Paladin and call it the "Top Five" selected classes) As for flavor, that's up to the DM. It's one reason why I keep up my subscription to Dungeon and Dragon magazine: to allow for me to have a repository of knowledge. Also, I like the Forgotten Realms books for the fluff as well. I guess that I would agree that personally I'm more into the fluff than the crunch. Now does that mean that I automatically use the Forgotten Realm campaign world? Nope. What I like doing is selecting material from a variety of sources and putting it together in a homebrew world of my own. It takes a little work, but that's what I always enjoyed doing - in Basic, 1st edition, 2nd edition, 3rd edition at revision 3.5.
Arrowhen 07-30-05, 02:14 AM	The "buy whatever magic item you can think of" is the crux of the problem. Allow me to quote from the introduction to Chapter Seven: Magic Items in the 3.5 DMG: "Magic items are the hallmarks of a legendary campaign. They are gleaned from the hoards of conquered monsters, taken from fallen foes, and sometimes crafted by the characters themselves." It doesn't say "...or purchased off-the-rack at Ye Olde Magicke Shoppe." Some DMs place magic shops in their campaigns while others do not; there's nothing in the RAW, however, which requires DM's to allow characters to "buy whatever magic item you can think of." The "choose from somebody else's PrC idea" (1 of 100 now) is the problem. Allow me to quote from the "Prestige Classes" section of Chapter Six: Characters in the 3.5 DMG: "Prestige classes are purely optional and always under the purview of the DM. We encourage you, as the DM, to tightly limit the prestige classes available in your campaign. The example prestige classes... might not even be appropriate for your campaign. The best prestige classes for your campaign are the ones you tailor make yourself." Yes, every supplement that comes out is packed full of prestige classes. That's because WotC has determined that there's a demand for them. Prestige classes sell, and WotC is in the business of selling books. You don't have to like them--I don't, and that's why I rarely buy supplements. But the presence of hundreds of prestige classes I don't use in books I don't own does not in any way affect the way I run my games. The "choose any silly race" because it's uber-whatever is the problem. Allow me to quote the DMG again, this time from the "Races" section of Chapter Six: Characters: "An easy way to customize a campaign is to change the races that players can choose from when creating characters. . . ." "You can give your players new race options either by using creatures from the Monster Manual or new creatures of your own design. In either case, handle this radical change to the campaign with care. . . ." "While every monster in the Monster Manual has the statistics that a player would need to play the creature as a character, most monsters are not suitable as PCs. . . ." "While the creatures in the Monster Manual make for interesting PC racial choices, that's not really what they were made for." (Emphases mine.) Here's another interesting quote. This one is from page 24 of the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons 2nd Edition Dungeon Master's Guide: "The races listed in the Player's Handbook are only a few of the possible intelligent races populating the worlds of the AD&D game. Adventurous DMs and players may want to experiment with characters of other races, such as orcs, lycanthropes, ogres, lizardmen, or even dragons." The book then goes on to provide two pages of guidelines for creating characters of nonstandard races. Interestingly, this is the same number of pages the 3.5 DMG devotes to the same subject. We play withing the mechanics of the 3.5 rules because they are so much better. Let's write that up to 20 years of feedback, and some great designers, and some great mathematicians. Agreed. Individual gaming groups have been altering and customizing the game ever since its inception. I know every DM I've played with, from red box Basic through the present, did some kind of rules customization in his or her game, from the minor (ignoring the weapon speed factor rules or adoping THAC0 when it was first mentioned in Dragon magazine years before the advent of 2nd ed.) to the complex (monsters as races, homebrewed spell-point systems and the like.) The designers of third edition, knowing that many DMs aren't happy with a sytem they haven't torn apart and tinkered with, have helped us out by doing the math for us in the areas we're most likely to want to mess with. Playing monsters. People have done that from the beginning. Playing undead monsters. Ditto. Playing LA +uber monsters. I don't like it either, but it's nothing new. I remember trying to get a play-by-email 2nd ed. game together in the early 90s and I could not find a single player who didn't want his character to be a polymorphed dragon or a rakshasa, or a demon in disguise... It's friggin silly. A magic store on every corner of every hamlet. "Get your vorpal blade here!". Not in the RAW. Even if magic stores were mandatory, the most expensive item available in an "official" hamlet is worth only 100 gp. If you've got 100 gp vorpal swords in your campaign, you can hardly place the blame at WotC's feet. That was my anger. Gygax didn't balance gold values in the old stuff, because he didn't ever envision being able to buy magic. The gold piece values are useful for balancing treasure and determining the gold and xp cost for magic item creation. Anywho, I apologize to one and all that enjoy your games, as they are now. We are dinosaurs. We will try to lie down quietly. Might I suggest that the problem you have with the game as it stands today stems not from the rules themselves but from your own increased awareness (due to the internet) of the way others are playing the game? Just about every complaint you've expressed with the current edition has to do with optional rules. That so many people choose to include optional material that you don't like (and, for the record, I don't like most of it either) isn't the "fault" of the designers but of the players and DMs who choose to use those optional rules. Even if I wouldn't prefer to play with the options another group chooses to include in their campaign, I'm still glad they're having fun playing their way.
Tenzhi 07-30-05, 02:33 AM	Back in my day, we had to walk FIFTEEN MILES uphill in the snow to roleplay And that was BETTER?
IceFractal 07-30-05, 04:26 AM	It's the flavour of the rules that are gone, missing. The "buy whatever magic item you can think of" is the crux of the problem. The "choose from somebody else's PrC idea" (1 of 100 now) is the problem. The "choose any silly race" because it's uber-whatever is the problem. All that's changed is that the rules are no longer tailored for just one type of game. You provide the flavor, don't just expect it to get handed to you - why not? Because the kind of flavor you like may not be the kind other people do, and why should everyone have to play the same way? Buying any magic item? I don't think so - just because they have prices doesn't mean they are for sale everywhere - they are as rare or common as you want them to be. Too many prestige classes you say? Well guess what, those are also under the DM's control. So are those high-LA races you complain about. If you're the DM, then take control of your world! If you're a player, then either suck it up or go find a group that fits your play style better. Frankly, I'm not trying to be insulting here, but it sounds like your main complaint is that the style of flavor you prefer is no longer enforced by the rules. Well guess what? It doesn't need to be - if you and your group want to play things low-magic core only, and old-style, then go ahead and do so - you don't need the rules to tell you that! And if the rest of the group doesn't want to play that way, then why should the rules force them to? Compromise or find a group that thinks the way you do.
Tenzhi 07-30-05, 04:55 AM	Buying any magic item? I don't think so - just because they have prices doesn't mean they are for sale everywhere - they are as rare or common as you want them to be. If you have a mage in the party they're for sale. Insert coins and a magic item shoots out. Sure, you can house rule thing like that, but we're talking about the universal perception of the game here rather than house rules.
Seeker95 07-30-05, 11:21 AM	If you have a mage in the party they're for sale. Insert coins and a magic item shoots out.Most magic items have prerequisites. These include the material components of the spells. For most powerful magic, those componenets have gold piece values as well. Item creation is a great way to generate adventures as the party asks its mage to craft this item or that. So if your (the generic "your" referring to any reader) game allows magic item creation of the insert coins and a magic item shoots out variety, it is again a not a problem with the rules or the publisher. You can once again blame only your DM.
Stardrake 07-30-05, 10:22 PM	If you have a mage in the party they're for sale. Insert coins and a magic item shoots out. Sure, you can house rule thing like that, but we're talking about the universal perception of the game here rather than house rules. So this mage is going to give up all the XP necessary to make items for everybody else without a peep?? Not very many players I've ever known (and I've been playing since 1974!) would do that just for gold--especially since the game no longer has the "XP for Gold" mechanic that OD&D had.... Getting back to the original post: "Realism" and "D&D" are 2 words that never belonged in the same sentence (and EGG agreed....). And as for "not buying magic items", Gygax may not have thought of it, but the rest of us did (the first campaign I was in featured the Procmire & Gravel line of fine (if silly--a lot of OD&D stuff tended to the silly) magic items, and this was in the 1970's. The players who wanted "realism" left for games like RuneQuest long ago. (Like me--I came back for 3e, when the game finally became flexible enough to be worth playing again.) So not all of us old-timers agree with you, NeueRegel, nor do we see the game becoming a "video-game'--a lot of the overpowered stuff was around in the 70's , when computer games consisted of Adventure and Oregon Trail played on teletype machines....
weasel fierce 07-30-05, 10:52 PM	The players who wanted "realism" left for games like RuneQuest long ago. (Like me--I came back for 3e, when the game finally became flexible enough to be worth playing again.) And some will be leaving for Runequest again, when the 4th edition comes out next year ;) Of course, no reason why you cant play both.
AmanitaEata 08-01-05, 11:54 AM	We work within the rules. It's the flavour of the rules that are gone, missing. The "buy whatever magic item you can think of" is the crux of the problem. Wrong. The DM who allows that is the problem. The "choose from somebody else's PrC idea" (1 of 100 now) is the problem. Wrong. The DM who allows that is the problem. The "choose any silly race" because it's uber-whatever is the problem. Wrong. The DM who allows that is the problem. What sort of spineless DM says “anything goes”? What sort of unthinking DM does not weigh the impact optional rules will have on his or her campaign? I don’t recall any of my books indicating that players must be allowed to buy any magic item out there, or even any magic item for that matter. Since in my games you can’t just stroll into a store and buy a +1 sword because that's how I want it, I'm wondering why this sort of thing was suddenly forced on your game if you don't want it. Pure Core, it's still not too bad; add in anything else, the "Complete" series included, and it becomes simply silly. You know what’s really silly? Using rules you don’t like or that negatively impact your game. Shocking as this may sound, just because Wizards of the Coast published it doesn’t mean you have to use it. Playing monsters. Don’t let them. Playing undead monsters. Don’t let them. Playing LA +uber monsters. Don’t let them. It's friggin silly. It’s silly to let them if you don’t want to. A magic store on every corner of every hamlet. "Get your vorpal blade here!". Funny, my campaign world doesn’t seem to have this feature. I also don’t remember this rule being in any of my rulebooks. Maybe that page was torn out or something … Cuz I can think of it, my character deserves it? I have a question for you: What does this have to do with the rules? Because this statement (and much of your rant) doesn’t seem to have much to do with the rules. Our game has more flavour in years than years most have you have lived. ;) Oddly enough, I’ve been playing since the late 70s and continue to now … and somehow I’m not feeling this sudden “flavor void” you seem to be impacted by. My campaign world continues to live and breath as it always has; the only thing that has changed are the mechanics by which we resolve combat and the like. I wonder why that is?
krynngeek 08-31-05, 11:44 AM	We work within the rules. It's the flavour of the rules that are gone, missing. The "buy whatever magic item you can think of" is the crux of the problem. The "choose from somebody else's PrC idea" (1 of 100 now) is the problem. The "choose any silly race" because it's uber-whatever is the problem. We simply do not allow magick items (other than potions) to be purchased But the game used to have some internal "common sense", which it is now lacking. Pure Core, it's still not too bad; add in anything else, the "Complete" series included, and it becomes simply silly. Its up to you as to what books you allow - if you only want to use the core books - then only allow the core books Playing monsters. Playing undead monsters. Playing LA +uber monsters. It's friggin silly. A magic store on every corner of every hamlet. "Get your vorpal blade here!". If you want your party to only play races from the PHB, then make that the rule Anywho, I apologize to one and all that enjoy your games, as they are now. We are dinosaurs. We will try to lie down quietly. We will play our game, and you play yours. I'm not crossposting this, like I did my first rant, because (first nobody even had a clue that there was a "what was"), and secondly, I'm not here to win any brownie points in any case. Our game has more flavour in years than years most have you have lived. ;) I have been playing D&D since 1979 thank you very much. I taught my fiance how to play this game and if we ever have children - we will play this game with our kids as a family. As far as the flavor of the game - its up to YOU to make your games fun. There are WAY more options available to us now then back in the old red box set. You just have to try. My advice for your group is - restrict play to only the core 3 rulebooks. Only let your players choose from the PHB - do not give them access to the DMG or MM1. Do not sell magick items - magick items should be found. (other than potions). If someone needs other spells cast (raise dead, etc.) make the party pay for it (other services too). As your group grows with the latest edition, then slowly if you want allow a new book and then incorporate it slowly into play. See how it goes. If it does badly, remove it. If it does good, then try the next book. You are not required to use EVERY book that WoTC comes out with. And above all, HAVE FUN!
Nyarlathotep 08-31-05, 11:56 AM	But the game used to have some internal "common sense", which it is now lacking. Pure Core, it's still not too bad; add in anything else, the "Complete" series included, and it becomes simply silly. Playing monsters. Playing undead monsters. Playing LA +uber monsters. It's friggin silly. A magic store on every corner of every hamlet. "Get your vorpal blade here!". All of those things are options. They can be included if you like them and ignored if you don't. As someone said earlier in this thread, if your game lacks flavor (or you don't like the flavor it has) blame your DM, not the game. And no, I am not some newbie to D&D. I have been playing since late in the 1st edition days. There is silly stuff now, but it isn't as if things in those days were free of silliness either. It's not as if munchkins and rules lawyers magically sprung up with 3e. I think that things are actually better now since a lot of things are optional and the game plays just fine without them. All that is required is that the DM has the cajones to say "NO!" when the player wants a half-dragon half-troll half-fiend drow chainfighter. And having those cajones is some that has nothing to do with the game system.