Post/Author/DateTime	Post
monai75 01-01-08, 05:02 AM	I hate to purpetuate this image of Wizards of the coast being this giant machine who only wants our money. So I will do my best to not come off that way. I am a true hardcore D+D fan from wayback. I am talking back before THAC0's. I have continued to keep myself involved with the different editions over the years. And started DMing around the age of 16-19. And as a player, I have alwasy considered myself lucky with the DM's who ran campaigns I was a player in. So I had a lot of good mentors where GMing is concerned. I Have a true love for the D+D brand of fantasy, and very few times have experimented with other gaming systems. I Have several hundreds of Miniatures, as well as all of the cool stuff that goes along with running a 4-7 player campaign. I put effort into the campaigns I run, and my players are for the most part loyal and enjoying themselves. I will not complain about the high price of books and minis, I CHOOSE to play D+D. But I can not help but to feel a bit cautions in these upcoming days as 4th edition creeps closer. I have a large investment into the books, mi9nis, and supplies I already have and use. And I am freaked out about the idea of having to replenish my stock all over again. Just to accommodate a new edition? How much better can it get? I understand there are some down right broken rules and mechanics involved with ANY role-playing system out there. But in my opinion, 3.5 is pretty close to right. And me and my players seem to be doing alright. I AM willing to give 4th edition a collage try, but it really needs to be THAT MUCH BETTER + MORE for me to spend that kind of money all over again. And on top of all of this, we all lost two of the coolest mags out there. And now we are supposed to get all of that coolness from D+D insider? I have been on the sight everyday for the past month (yeah I love D+D that much) And it barely has had any changes made to it in the past two weeks! I understand the holidays are here, but come on already. I do not want to be pushed further away from the opne thing that all of us enjoy so much. We ll know how hard it is to be a sit down around a table with minis and dice gamers. I mean those guys who dress up and stuff are just kind of weird to me, But I would rather be playing with real players instead of sitting at a computer. It just seems like D+D is on a slippery slope, and I do not want to see it sucked away by the Giant money making computer chip monster who would rather have all of us sitting at laptops playing a game that seems closer to WOW than any D+D game I ever want to play in. I know there will be a bunch of crap coming from some know it all fan boy who will no doubt pick out some obscure wrongness about what I have posted. But take a look at that! It is part of what I am talking about! I love D+D. I love playing characters, I love minis, painting them, collecting them. I love creating campaign settings for my friends to enjoy with the character they create. And I work hard to pull off a bi-weekly 3.5 campaign. With 5 players. And we have fun. If it is not broke do not fix it. Specifically if you are going to fix it every couple of years. I know this is a rant. I am sorry. OK boys have at it. Just be polite.
Naderion 01-01-08, 05:58 AM	Go on playing 3.5e and live hapily ever after...
Salla 01-01-08, 06:31 AM	Paragraphs, man, PARAGRAPHS!
kuonji 01-01-08, 07:13 AM	Paragraphs, man, PARAGRAPHS! Seconded!
annoyinglizardvoice 01-01-08, 07:37 AM	Sorry if I seem ignorant or rude here, but I don't understand all the 4.0 hate. Surely it's a case of: if you like 3.5, don't buy 4.0, if you like 4.0, buy 4.0. If anything, Wizards is save the 3.5 players cash. An experienced 3.5 gamer probably knows enough to come up with their own new rules, and there's more stuff out already than a less experienced player should be using. Sorry again if this sounds insulting.
katarl 01-01-08, 07:44 AM	Why not actually wait for 4.0 before deciding not to play it?
Seeker95 01-01-08, 09:27 AM	I will buy the 4e core rulebooks. I'm just that way. Have been since 1978 Basic D&D. And if I like the 4e mechanics and ruleset better than 3.5, I will change my campaign game to 4e. If I do not, then it will remain 3.5 as it has since the day I decided to use the 3.5 ruleset I purchased when it came out. You're not backed into a corner.
Toran_A_Sunder 01-01-08, 10:32 AM	While I do acknowledge that many people have spent hundreds, if not thousands, more on D&D products than I have, my stance on this matter remains the same. WotC, and 4e, will in no way limit your ability to continue finding enjoyment of 3.5 Your books wont spontaneously combust in June, neither will your minis melt from the inside, rendering them useless. They will all still be there. And from the amount of product the OP is saying he has, with just a little imagination thats enough D&D merch. to find enjoyment in for at least a decade, if not more. Check it out. If yo don't like 4e, cool. No one is saying you have to. If its not what you want, you will still have all that 3.5 stuff to play with. I promise, it wont go anywhere.
mordred6 01-01-08, 11:05 AM	I will buy the 4e core rulebooks. I'm just that way. Have been since 1978 Basic D&D. And if I like the 4e mechanics and ruleset better than 3.5, I will change my campaign game to 4e. If I do not, then it will remain 3.5 as it has since the day I decided to use the 3.5 ruleset I purchased when it came out. I feel, exactly, the same way. :D Yet, one is easily able to feel "cornered" if you attend conventions and are looking to stay current. Under that aspect you can no longer be current with 3.5 and are forced to convert to the new system. Myself, I gave those up when I had kids, but...
Seeker95 01-01-08, 11:23 AM	Yet, one is easily able to feel "cornered" if you attend conventions and are looking to stay current.If ther priority is to stay current, then feeling cornered by the release of a new edition is a self-imposed feeling. It is like the person who wants to stay fit and feels cornered because his family serves dessert at every meal. People set their own priorities when it comes to hobbies.
Zherog 01-01-08, 11:56 AM	Yet, one is easily able to feel "cornered" if you attend conventions and are looking to stay current. Under that aspect you can no longer be current with 3.5 and are forced to convert to the new system. Not really. For example, you can go to GenCon and find 1e and 2e games. I'll be buying the 4e books, because I need them as a freelance game designer. My campaign will almost certainly be remaining 3.5 for at least a year after that, though - until we finish the current campaign.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-01-08, 03:01 PM	Go on playing 3.5e and live hapily ever after... I agree, I am a FR player (where you can REALLY feel the changes) and I felt just like you a while ago, I have over 50(55?) books and I was "choking" of the whole issue and one of my players/ADM said to me: "dude you have SO many book we can go playing 50+ more years no prob" and you know what I's true! if anything 3.x book will be cheaper. see the glass half full my friend ;)
Evil DM Mk3 01-01-08, 03:29 PM	The reason I don't understand the 4th e hate is this. There are big problems with 3.x. Class balance, level dipping, the hours spent doing each of the fighters 7 attacks one at a time to allow max benefit, player who never take anything but humans. 3.x isn't bad, but there is a lot of room for improvement. If 4th e is that improvement then all shall be good. Feels strange really seeing as Vacian spellcasting and alignment (two things I hear more whining about than any other) are two things I think are extremely good for the game.:rolleyes:
Escef 01-01-08, 04:10 PM	There are big problems with 3.x. ...player who never take anything but humans. Explain to me how that's a problem with the system. In my current campaign we have two humans, a halfling, and a warforged. I've had players take elves and dwarves before, too. Yes, even half-orc. What I haven't seen is half-elf and gnome getting played. But that is just my experience with the game. Player preference is not the system's problem.
Evil DM Mk3 01-01-08, 04:50 PM	Apart from Dwarves Humans are much stronger as a race than the other. It is another slant on the wizards are stronger than fighters debate.
Escef 01-01-08, 05:53 PM	Apart from Dwarves Humans are much stronger as a race than the other. Elf +2 racial bonus on 3 skills, easily worth a feat and a half. Immune to magical sleep, probably worth a feat and a half. +2 bonus on saves vs. enchantments, there is a feat for this that even has another feat as a prerequisite. Estimated value: 1 feat. Low-light vision, estimated value 1/2 to 1 feat. Automatic search check for passing a hidden door, value approximated at 1/2 feat. Automatic weapon proficiencies value of approximately 1 feat. Total feat goodness on elf: 6 to 7 feats Human Bonus feat at first level, value obvious. Extra skill points, value over 20 levels of 23 skill points, approximately 5 feats. Total feat goodness on human: 6 feats Conclusion: The human is not stronger, just more easily customized. And we can reach a similar conclusion with most other races. The problem is not the system. The problem is that players prefer the more easily customized race, as the others tend to be pre-customized for certain roles.
RadicalTaoist 01-01-08, 06:17 PM	Why not actually wait for 4.0 before deciding not to play it? Crazy talk. You must etch your immediate reaction to the announcement in stone with as little knowledge of how the system works as is possible.[/sarcasm]
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 01-01-08, 06:21 PM	tl;dr Just keep playing 3.5.
jaelis 01-01-08, 06:30 PM	I have a tendency to say the same... just keep playing 3.5 if you don't like/want 4e. But in a thread a while ago, I came to understand that there really is a basis for the complaints: people value the dnd community, not just the game itself. Most likely, most people will shift to 4e before too long. So even if you and your group keep playing 3.5, you will have lost a lot of the community that you were a part of, and that makes some people feel bad. I don't think there's anything to do about that... companies need to make money, the world changes, and life goes on. But I can at least feel some sympathy for the OP's malaise.
CryoSilver 01-01-08, 06:55 PM	I am becoming more and more excited about 4e as time goes on. As a DM, I homebrew the vast majority of my stuff, and have actually sold of about80% of my 3.5 books. I don't want more 3.5 books (except for a select few). I don't necessarily want 4e either, but at least its something new, and shiny, and worth a look, even if I don't buy.
monai75 01-02-08, 12:37 AM	Look at all the stew that gets stirred up in the pot. Paragraphs man, paragraphs! I AM waiting for 4th edition to come out before making a decision, and I KNOW I can just keep playing 3.5 And I am aware that hope I am feeling abut it is as one of you said "self-imposed" I merely was trying to get a feel for the possibility that other DM's might feel similar. That you folks, and good night! I was expecting worse.
synlon 01-02-08, 06:55 AM	I guess I'm a bit too old school for most of you out there. We here in this neck of the woods still pllay 2e because it works for us. There is a downside. The books we have are wearing out. The time will come that we have to invest in new ones. At that time we will make a judgement on 3.5 or 4 but for now it works and if it isn't broke don't fix it.
Belkar 01-02-08, 11:26 AM	And I am freaked out about the idea of having to replenish my stock all over again. Just to accommodate a new edition? As has been said... why do you need to "replentish stock?" Amazon is offering the 3 books you need (and the only ones you will ever need to play the game) for less than $70. They ain't breakin' the bank... How much better can it get? I understand there are some down right broken rules and mechanics involved with ANY role-playing system out there. But in my opinion, 3.5 is pretty close to right. Walk over to the fine folks at the CharOp Theroetical Build boards and cry a little inside. Now, if you and your crew can keep it non-broken... good for you! The community, however, doesn't seem to be able to do that. I AM willing to give 4th edition a collage try, but it really needs to be THAT MUCH BETTER + MORE for me to spend that kind of money all over again. Why do you need to spend that much money? Don't get it. $70 bucks. Again... $70. And if you want to break down the money you've spent - honestly... lets say you own 50 books. 50. BOOKS. That's A LOT of books. More than your average gamer (and WotC's customer) by a long shot. But let's say you do (it sounds like you're hardcore... so it's a safe assumption ;) ). At $30 a pop, that's $1500. But let's account for the occasional $40 cost of a book, and any 3.x supplemental supplies or gamepieces you also bought that won't work with any other system (though I can't think of many...). Let's bump the $1500 to $2000 - just to be fair. Now... That's a lot of money. Not really. This is why: As of 4e release, 3e will have had an 8 year run. That's $250 a year spent on 3e D&D. Or... about $21 a month. Dude... I spent more each week at the Quick-E-Mart. At $21 a month... That's arguably the cheapest hobby I have... What about you? :D And on top of all of this, we all lost two of the coolest mags out there. And now we are supposed to get all of that coolness from D+D insider? I have been on the sight everyday for the past month (yeah I love D+D that much) And it barely has had any changes made to it in the past two weeks! I understand the holidays are here, but come on already. I agree with you wholehearedly here, brother. I miss the mags. But again... I didn't need them to play the game. I do not want to be pushed further away from the opne thing that all of us enjoy so much. We ll know how hard it is to be a sit down around a table with minis and dice gamers. I mean those guys who dress up and stuff are just kind of weird to me, But I would rather be playing with real players instead of sitting at a computer. It just seems like D+D is on a slippery slope, and I do not want to see it sucked away by the Giant money making computer chip monster who would rather have all of us sitting at laptops playing a game that seems closer to WOW than any D+D game I ever want to play in. Man, I feel ya! But I don't see them excluding table-toppers as much as including WoW'ers. It's not like those of us who prefer the table and the dice can't still play that way. Adding new ways for the game to be played doesn't invalidate the old. I know there will be a bunch of crap coming from some know it all fan boy who will no doubt pick out some obscure wrongness about what I have posted. But take a look at that! It is part of what I am talking about! I love D+D. I love playing characters, I love minis, painting them, collecting them. I love creating campaign settings for my friends to enjoy with the character they create. And I work hard to pull off a bi-weekly 3.5 campaign. With 5 players. And we have fun. If it is not broke do not fix it. Specifically if you are going to fix it every couple of years. I know this is a rant. I am sorry. OK boys have at it. Just be polite. Bro... you get no crap from me! Paragraphs aside... lol... ;) You've given a heartfelt expression of your concern. You have my respect for that, Monai. I don't think what you'll love about the game will change, my friend. Especially because it sounds like you run tight games with a good group. And a good DM with Good Players can make anything "right." :) But the things you love... will still be there... (I hope...lol...) Good Gaming to all.
celestialkin 01-02-08, 11:47 AM	Go on playing 3.5e and live hapily ever after... People keep on saying this, but the truth is that it will quickly become extremely hard to find people who want to stay with an older system. For some it is already difficult to find players, and we get regular threads on here where people are asking for help to find players and stores anywhere near them. Now imagine trying to find a game when 99.xx% of players no longer use your system. I even started experimenting with DMing to try keeping the torch going, but all the players I know, even the ones I haven't played with, have already made it clear that they a thrilled about 4.0. I also already know for a fact that there will be no one running a 3.5 game in the store I usually play in, especially since half of the games there are sponsored by the store and usually run by some of it's employees. Don't get me wrong. That's great for them, and I am genuinely happy for them. I know one player in particular who will love what they are doing with his favorite class. I am just saying, don't think that it's as simple as just pretending 4.0 never happened.
Toran_A_Sunder 01-02-08, 01:03 PM	People keep on saying this, but the truth is that it will quickly become extremely hard to find people who want to stay with an older system. For some it is already difficult to find players, and we get regular threads on here where people are asking for help to find players and stores anywhere near them. Now imagine trying to find a game when 99.xx% of players no longer use your system. I even started experimenting with DMing to try keeping the torch going, but all the players I know, even the ones I haven't played with, have already made it clear that they a thrilled about 4.0. I also already know for a fact that there will be no one running a 3.5 game in the store I usually play in, especially since half of the games there are sponsored by the store and usually run by some of it's employees. Don't get me wrong. That's great for them, and I am genuinely happy for them. I know one player in particular who will love what they are doing with his favorite class. I am just saying, don't think that it's as simple as just pretending 4.0 never happened. Yes, it will be harder to find people who are looking for 3.5 games when 4e is released. But let's assume that the same people in your area, who are purchasing 4e, still keep their 3.5 material. Certainly not unlikely, am I right? Now if you go to a group of your friends and say that you want to run a game, and it's gonna be awesome, would they all say no? I doubt it. I don't play 2e anymore, because no one I know, or care to game with, is running. But if my DM said that he wanted to run this really kick ass 2e game and invited me in, I'd say hell yes! Why? Because game is game is game, no matter what type, or edition, or whatever. Just my two cps.
jaelis 01-02-08, 02:22 PM	Don't get me wrong. That's great for them, and I am genuinely happy for them. I know one player in particular who will love what they are doing with his favorite class. I am just saying, don't think that it's as simple as just pretending 4.0 never happened. If this is the case though, then what you are really complaining about is that WotC is doing something that everyone else really likes but you don't. Is that really fair? Don't you think WotC should be doing what the majority of players wants, not just what you want?
Trailfoot 01-02-08, 03:00 PM	I remember this when 3e came out. And 3.5. I started playing with 1e, but 2e was already out when that happened. I imagine, had the 'Net been popular then, we'd have gotten the same thing. I've upgraded my games as soon as I knew the rules for each new edition. And each time, my games have gotten more fun, more enjoyable, smoother, and... just better. Each new edition includes both diversification of options and smoothing-out of rules. Most of the time, they've also helped get rules further out of the way of roleplaying. Everything I read about 4.0 says it'll be the same. Smoother rules, more options at each level and at each combat round, better balance, and rules getting still further out of the way of RP. I'm entirely in favor of that, and if upgrading to the new edition will make my game better? I'm all for it. I'm willing to drop money on a non-core book to make my game better; why not do so on core books? EDIT: I'll be spending LESS money this year on D&D than usual. I don't intend to buy any more 3.5 stuff, and when 4e is released I plan to buy Core and master that - a few months of play - before I pick up anything else. So, while I normally buy a $30 book about once every 2 months, this year I'll be buying 3 all year. Wow, WotC was nice to announce 4e so soon!
Etarnon 01-02-08, 09:51 PM	Yeah people were excited about SAGA SW too. till they TRIED to play it. Back to good old D6 WEG SW.
Scipion Emilien 01-02-08, 11:06 PM	Yeah people were excited about SAGA SW too. till they TRIED to play it. Back to good old D6 WEG SW. You know, i was absolutely not thrill about SAGA, i was even one of those big whinner on the SW forum (sorry Sarli) and now the more I play it, the more I like it. I will not do the same error with 4th and I will wait to see before whining. (yes a whiner who learn from his mistake, rare enough!) As for the SAGA system, it is in every way superior to the RCR, and really i never saw no one complaining about the system in my gaming circle and on the forum at the exception of the lack of dark side temptation/penaltie rules and some people saying that jedi are underpowered (and others that they are overpowered...). Even those people would not go back to the RCR and still play SAGA with some houserule... So im really curious where do you get the impression of people disliking SAGA.
Dragoon_Warrior 01-03-08, 01:21 AM	WotC is a company and they do need to make money in their defence. I plan on sticking with 3.5, 4th will have to pull out some really nice stuff to get me to switch. I am a little disappointed that there wont be any more 3.5 published but it wouldnt stop me from making my own. Life goes on and every company out there evolves and changes to make more money and WotC reallys isnt that different. I hope with the appearance of 4 that the new generation will see it and be drawn into the fantasy world. Us hard core 3.5 players will just have to convince them that our system is better ...:D
monai75 01-03-08, 01:37 AM	I must respond to the overwhelming number of folks out there who are saying "Just keep playing 3.5" well, first off I would like to see what all the hype is about for 4th edition. Then decide to either keep playing 3.5, or start playing 4th edition. And hope that if I do make the switch and learn a new system and buy new books, that they will not revamp the game again in 2 years and have 4.5 I am pretty sure this will not happen as drastically as it did with 3.5, now that we all have D+D insider to help update us weekly with new rules and errata. Secondly (do you like the paragraphs?) I suppose most of you can not wait for 4th to come out, part of me can not either. But I can not help but feel like we are all being had. at least on some level. But I guess we are no different then those guys who dump quarters into slot machines. They like to do it so they spend there money on it and enjoy it while they are doing it. Now before you fan boys who act all smart and badass jump down my throat, LISTEN, I am NOT comparing gambling addiction with my role-playing hobby, I am just pointing out that we are not forced to play these games and buy these books and stay up at all hours of the night chatting about our favorite Race or class, or which iconic character in the books looks the sexiest. Just like those people who sit at a casino and spend hundreds of dollars pouring coins into a slot machine are not forced to do so. The problem comes when the casino owners decide to make the games cost double all of a sudden, or they decide to change the game around and "streamline it so it has a better appeal to the new generation of gamers/gamblers. Pretty soon D+D and WoW will be almost the same thing. I have listened to EVERY D+D podcast, and most of the developers who have been on the show ALL mentioned playing WoW and how it influenced their reformatting of D+D mechanics. Do not get me wrong (love the paragraphs!) I am all about a smoother D+D mechanic. I dream of a day when the fighter wants to grapple the bad guy in shadowy illumination, and it does not bring the game to a slow halt. Or when one of my crafty players decides he wants his character to do something the current mechanics do not cover. Bring on 4th edition! But in 5 years I can bet we will be seeing this same topic coming up over and over again. And until we are all plugging in fiber-optic chips into our temples and having real-time D+D adventures with other players from around the world. That is what we are headed for. And I say bring it. Just keep it affordable and make sure it lives up to all the hype and presentation. Have fun guys, I hope my grammar was better this time. And for all of you who just want to hate for the sake of hating, and you act real smart and stuck up from behind the screen of your PC. This I say to you. You are reading and posting messages on a Dungeons and Dragons thread. You can not be That cool! So do not take things so seriously. And quit the ultra geek thing, it really give us D+D players a bad rap, which we have been trying to shake off from the beginning. Weather we like it or not 4th edition is coming. I just hope it is worth all of this fuss. Did I mention Happy new year! You have all just taken part in my study for psychology class. You where easy to infiltrate and easy to fool. Thank you for all of your help. I must now report to my spongy brain-like master on a plane of existence your human tonges could not pronounce, nor could your ancient Hebrew alphabet attempt to spell. Good night and see you at the book store on release day!