Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xguild 01-30-04, 02:14 PM	Hi All I've gotten pretty good advice in the past on this forum so I thought I would try again. I'm starting a new campaign with my gaming group in the forgotten realms. One of the big issues that I had with my last campaign in the Scarred Lands, is complaints from players in regards to balance issues between the classes. That campaign ran successfull for over a year, but eventually ended and I never wanted to pick it up because of the constant complaints about how one class is more powerful then the other or one character was more powerful then the other. I'd like to pose a couple of questions and see what kind of responses I might get from other DM's. 1. First and foremost, is it a consensus out there that the classes are not balanced? If so explain what specific thing causes the unbalance and which classes you feel are more or less powerful then the other. 2. What can I do or say to a group of players that would satisfy their constant bickering over this issue?
Xarrith 01-30-04, 06:22 PM	Well it really depends on which classes, specifically, they think are unbalanced. In the classes section of the site, you can find numerous discussions about this or that class being over/underpowered, and what version you're using would help too.
Inadequate 01-30-04, 06:28 PM	Hey. First of all, I think that you need to reconsider what kind of people you are gaming with. Complaining about "he is more powerful than me" Is VERY immature, and shouldnt be tolerated. The new D&D rules are made, so that every class is balanced in comparison to each other. You need to discuss with your player, WHAT exactly they think is unbalanced. But do this OFF the table, theres no point in complaying at the gaming table, make sure that the players understand that. This is a ROLEPLAYING game, and its made so that people can have fun, and enjoy themselves whilst playing another person. NOT for competing with one another. This is a cooperative game, and you have to function as a group, to get past the obstacles that the DM throws at them. By the way, if you run a hack´n´slash campaign, try to change that as it makes the less powerful characters more interesting. Try and write up a game that draws on every characters potential, so that they all feel important, and part of the group. Each character SHOULD feel inexpendable.
Grayson 01-30-04, 07:06 PM	Some good avice from Inadequate. For every large scenario I run for my group, I always try to ask myself: "Ok, what if this player's character wasn't there?" If I get too many situations where the party can do without one or more characters, I try to work in something that caters more to their abilities - the sneaky lockpicking rogue is going to be pretty bored in a dungeon with no traps, no locks, and no chance to scout or sneak around. Also be careful with using big monsters, or big traps, that can do a lot of damage. You might be thinking "Well, the fighter has 60hp, so if I make it to 10d8 damage.. then it might be able to kill him. That's good!" Not considering that the mage has 25hp, and the trap is almost gauranteed to be lethal.
Gen-X 02-02-04, 03:39 AM	We had that very same problem in my gaming group. There was a ranger who went the two weapon path, and a Barbarian (berserker as he was known from his tribe), the first was an elf, the latter a half-orc. The ranger was constantly grumbling whenever the barbarian hit with his two handed greataxe, as the damage was more than his. Even if they both his with all their attacks, the barbarian usualy was far ahead (the power attack feat was helping him out to a degree) Eitherway, this ranger was shot down at a later point for not realizing that the barbarian's power, force and sheer toughness is what he's all about. A ranger gets spells, companions, and a stack more skills to play with among many other things. If his ranger were doing the same damage as the barbarian per round, yet retained all his ranger abiliites, why would anyone every bother playing a barbarian in the first place except for the larger hit-die. Be careful when you talk of issues of balance, as some people out ther cannot see beyone their own characters short comming, and never take into accout what it is their characters can actualy do. :devil:
Faraer 02-02-04, 01:03 PM	1. Since 1974 people have proclaimed how class X is too powerful or not powerful enough. It's just always been a different class. The classes of (A)D&D have always been very well balanced, through the most extensive playtesting in the RPG industry. 2. Getting this through to people who get ideas into their head is another matter. What matters is that the players' roles are balanced.
Seeker95 02-02-04, 02:27 PM	The classes *are* balanced. It is the players that are imbalanced. :smirk: Different players will build their characters in different ways. This various builds can become quite imbalanced if compared to each other. A min-max player will often have a "more powerful" character than a concept player, depending on the concept. An offense-oriented player will often *seem* more powerful than a defense-oriented player. A high level wizard will often seem more powerful than a high level fighter. But when you throw any of these characters into the same party, and they work together, no character is more powerful than another. One character may, however, be played better than another. One last factor -- one DM may consistently craft encounters and adventures that more fully engage the strengths of one character or class more frequently. This will lead to perceptions of imbalance.
Hogre 02-02-04, 04:51 PM	The classes can never be perfectly balanced because no two campaigns are the same. I can think of a few things that really throw off balance though. 1: Ability Generation: The classes were playtested at a 25 point buy. If your players have abilities much higher than 25 point buy then certain classes that are multi stat dependent will likely seem more powerful. For example a fighter with an 18 strength and 8 in everything else will beat the stuffing out of a cleric with 18 wisdom and 8 in everything else. Note that those scores are just example and not a result of 25 point buy. 2: Money: Some classes get more bang for their buck than others. Give the group a lot of money and a shop to buy magic goodies and you will soon have a rogue with use magic device and enough firepower for an entire party. 3: Downtime: Some classes can make items and thus get their supplies at half the price. Of course making stuff for themselves is more important to them, so they end up with the better equipment in the party. 4: Foreknowledge: The prepared spell spellcasters really depend on at least a minor knowledge of what they will face that day. Your wizard may have the right spell for the occaision in his spell book, but did he know he would need it at the beginning of the day? Did he know how many times he would need it? Likely he didn't know and he most likely prepared other spells that simply weren't useful at all.
Thrudjelmer 02-02-04, 05:03 PM	I think the mistake most people make when they say the classes aren't balanced is that they are only looking at combat... and granted, that is an important aspect of the game. However, even if the classes were all balanced to be equal in combat, then imbalance creeps in elsewhere... bards and rogues have a much better time of it in social situations due to more skill points to work with and class skills that apply to roleplaying. Your basic fighter suffers here. Game balance is important, not combat balance... and I think game balance works out pretty well regardless of which edition you're using.
Dark_Juggernaut 02-02-04, 09:33 PM	Some players tend to argue that spellcasting classes, after certain levels, soon become dominantly strong and versatile. If your players begin to complain to a high degree if your caster dominates most combat AND non-combat situations, you can powercheck them and see what needs to be done to restore a degree of balance. I know alot of DMs run a session where the wizards spellbook gets stolen or the players begin to encounter anti-magic areas, in order to force the magicly inclined back into relying on the other players for support. This is just one example, and you usually don't run into to many players capable of making EVERY other character jealous with a caster at all times, so said measures will most likely never be nessesary. A good idea when DMing a party where balance is concerned is to carefully examine all the spells and abilities they learn as they level up, and if any seem to unblanaced for your campaign, place a limitation on it. You could require quests for certain spells/abilities or have some god become steadily more angry at the PC as the said spell/ability is used, until a new event occurs confronting the PC. Or if you really feel it is nessesary, outright make it unavailable. Just keep an eye on your players, cater to their abilities and challenge them, and powercheck with anyone who's getting out of hand and see what you can do about it , heh.
Gen-X 02-03-04, 08:48 PM	To those annoying people who cry about lack of balance, just use the old phrase: "...well no ones forceing you to play"
Daenor Nulmas 02-04-04, 10:19 AM	Most players in one of the groups I play DnD with have the opinion that bards and rogues are pretty much useless classes. However, I have some experiences with another group I play with (my first group, we've been playing for 6 years) that can prove them wrong. For example, on our first campaign using 3rd edition, the only starting character that managed to survive was an halfling bard... The character wasn't combat-oriented, but the player made him work well and eventually become the main character in the story... He even showed up as a major character in another campaign we did in that same world, a few ingame years later. Another example is a rogue/assassin I once played. In combat, the character would surelly be slaughtered... However, working together with the party's rogue, we managed to deal quite a lot of damage while the fighter kept the foes off our backs. Actually, I think it all comes down to how you play your character... A wizard can be a powerful character, but he's pretty much useless if he draws his blade and charges against his enemies (yes, I've seen this happening :D )