Balancing Stats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Balancing Stats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
De_Chain
06-08-07, 11:04 AM I rolled up a +1 character the other day, and it got me thinking. I like to roll stats, the 4d6 minus the lowest is a fun way to start the game (good or bad), but it's obviously not fair when someone has a 13 str and nothing else and someone else has a couple 18s and nothing below a 12.

One way to fix this problem is with a point buy system. But... I dont really like point buy. I'm not exactly sure why. It's just a little too ridged for my taste I guess, and I miss the excitement of rolling, of not knowing what you're going to get. I know some people like it that way, but for the sake of this thread, lets just remove the 'point buy'/'set stats' option.

Anyway, back to the problem of one character with high stats vs one with low stats. I think that it would be kind of neat to give those with low stats a bonus to help keep up with the multi 18s.

For example, maybe the individual with the 13 and nothing else could forgo a level adjustment when playing alternate race, have some extra gold or a magic item attuned to him, or some other neat bonus. It offers up some interesting possiblitys for flavor in a game. All of a sudden I wouldn't mind rolling poorly because I would get to choose one of those new options.

The only problem is how to balance this system. I think it would be best to measure by the total of the bonuses a character gets. It isnt perfect, but its something. Then maybe you could cross reference that with some sort of Gygaxian chart to determine what your "differently abled" character gets for compensation.

Comments? Suggestions?
Shiftkitty
06-08-07, 11:46 AM I'd play as is. If one member of the party has very little or nothing above average, so be it. Literature abounds with the little guy with the big friend. I would hope that the DM would be fair to the player and not target that character simply because his scores are nothing special, but I've got a cleric running right now who came up with only one semi-decent score, a WIS 14. Everything else is average with her CHA at 9 (well, it's up to 10 now). The player handles her with the idea that she has to work twice as hard to be considered half as good. She's out to prove her worth to her god (a homebrew deity) and to her party. Fortunately, this is one of those parties that works together instead of breaking down into anarchy during melee. She pumped her Healing skill up, knowing that with a low CHA she wouldn't be able to turn undead very well (although die rolls have proven her wrong), and further ingratiating the party to her. She's also unafraid to take on a battle, which also garners their respect.

If a player has rolled absolutely horrible scores, I'd let them roll again, or else re-roll the stats that are unacceptable and take whatever comes up (unless they're equally abyssmal). Generally, I consider anything from 8-9 on up as acceptable, if challenging.

Of course, some fun can be had with terrible scores. My brother created a ninja, taking the scores as they came up. When it came to DEX he threw the 3d6 (his preferred method for genuine randomness) and got a 4. We laughed our heads off and told him to re-roll. Then he got taht crazy look in his eyes and refused. Bakanakata, the Klutzy Ninja, actually lived a long time... He was pretty effective, too, because some of his failed rolls were failed spectacularly, often having dire consequences for the bad guys.

A friend of mine told me about a couple of players who were creating Barbarians. Their INT scores were in the basement, so they played twins who were barely able to form words but could hit like nobody's business. Yes, it was a serious campaign with only comedy relief during the RP parts as the Paladin and the Cleric tried to teach them how to speak in more than slurred words.

In the red box basic set, there was a rule that if you didn't like a score, you could subtract 2 from one stat to add 1 to the stat you're trying to pump up. I used it a couple of times, but never really cared for it.

So I think an unbalanced stat sheet can offer some great opportunities for role-playing if your player wants to take it on. If not, I suppose there's no harm in a re-roll as long as they're not re-rolling until they get all 18s.
CryoSilver
06-08-07, 11:51 AM You could let everyone in your group roll, and then have a vote on which set of rolls to use. This way, everyone still gets to roll, but everyone has the same numbers to work with at the end.

This will tend to increase the power level of the party a bit. So, using this variant, I would not allow the rerolling of the lowest stat.

Or you could have everyone in the group roll for a different stat or two (works best in 3 and 6 person groups, obviously).
De_Chain
06-08-07, 12:09 PM I almost always play as is, which may be why I'vebeen wanting to try something a little different. Honestly, I think the idea roots into my strong dislike of level adjustments. I think drow are neat, but it can be hard to have them keep up with the rest of the party because they are missing two levels. However, if that drow had poor stats, then the level adjustment could possibly be reduced or eliminated. Problem is, I'd be afraid of the system getting out of hand, and someone gaining too much or too little power. A free magic item attuned to a preticualr person could work as well. Expecially a stat booster which would have kind of a neat flavor to it as well.

In the end, you're probably right to stick to the rolls as is, Shiftkitty. But... I'd still like to see this thing through... maybe try it in a one-shot or something.

You could let everyone in your group roll, and then have a vote on which set of rolls to use. This way, everyone still gets to roll, but everyone has the same numbers to work with at the end.

This will tend to increase the power level of the party a bit. So, using this variant, I would not allow the rerolling of the lowest stat.

Or you could have everyone in the group roll for a different stat or two (works best in 3 and 6 person groups, obviously).

Interesting, but a little less personal than rolling for your own character.
Selena Ombrenoire
06-08-07, 12:19 PM Here's an interesting idea from Otto the Bugbear
Otto's random array (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=622415&highlight=random+array)

-Selena
VrecknidjX
06-08-07, 12:48 PM For example, maybe the individual with the 13 and nothing else could forgo a level adjustment when playing alternate race, have some extra gold or a magic item attuned to him, or some other neat bonus. It offers up some interesting possiblitys for flavor in a game. All of a sudden I wouldn't mind rolling poorly because I would get to choose one of those new options.

The only problem is how to balance this system. I think it would be best to measure by the total of the bonuses a character gets. It isnt perfect, but its something. Then maybe you could cross reference that with some sort of Gygaxian chart to determine what your "differently abled" character gets for compensation.

Comments? Suggestions?I think that something of this sort could work for non-RPGA home games. But, I'd leave it as purely a DM/player issue. If you roll up a set of crap stats, you and your DM can chat about something to do about it. You might want the challenge of playing a character with no higher score than a 14. Or, you might want your character to have a little extra gold, or whatever. But, I think that if you add anything to the character at this point, there has to be an in-game reason for it, and it should be part of your character's personality. That makes it more fun.

Dave
CryoSilver
06-08-07, 12:51 PM Interesting, but a little less personal than rolling for your own character.
No method is going to be both perfectly fair and fully personal.
Shiftkitty
06-08-07, 02:51 PM I don't use level adjustments in my campaign. If someone wants to play a drow, they play as a PC with all of the advantages and disadvantages. I can understand some ability adjustments for different races, but when it comes to advancing, "NO DELVER LEFT BEHIND!" :D

So, if someone rolls up a character with one 13 and nothing else close, maybe let them add 1d6 for each unacceptable stat, in order, no rerolls? I've never been a fan of "point buy" systems, and if you really want interesting, "Amber" uses an auction system for stats. I never got into that, either, although the game was fun.
bonethug0108
06-08-07, 05:41 PM I have a method.

/leaves to look for it

Edit: Snipped from another thread-

Except we use a range, 70 to 80, so it gives some divergence, while still maintaining balance. I'm thinking of raising the minimum to 72, as that is the total you get from the standard Pb.

My system is on the first page, but to sum it up, you roll and if the total is above the range, you remove points from any stat to get equal to the max. If it's below, you get bonus points to get you up to the minimum. Then, after adjusting (not meaning racial adj) to this range, you can switch up to six points between stats. You don't have to use the same stat for all six points. This throws in some customization. Oh, and your low stat can't be less than six, and the high not greater than 18, even after customization.

Example: Range 70 to 80
PC1- 12, 13, 17, 7, 15, and 14 = 78(within the range). Then the player customizes to 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, and 8.

PC2- 17, 10, 18, 13, 10, and 14 = 82(above the range, -2). The player takes 2 from 10 to get 8. Then customizes to 18, 17, 15, 13, 9, and 8.

PC3- 8, 10, 8, 14, 15, and 9 = 64(below the range, + 6). The player adds 2 to 15 to get 17, and 4 to 8 to get 12. Then customizes to 17, 14, 12, 10, 9, and 8.

I find this method has the fun of rolling dice, mixed with a little of the customiztion of pb. It also helps keep the group in a certain "power level" which is good for me as dm to help judge cr, and good for them as they are all relatively close in power so no one can really complain.
Pfisiar
06-08-07, 05:48 PM Basically, have each player roll 3 sets of 4d6 drop lowest. The DM gets to order a reroll on any of the three rolls that is absurdly bad or absurdly powerful. Then the players choose which stat array they want to use.

This gives the players choice while keeping variety in the game.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
De_Chain 06-08-07, 11:04 AM	I rolled up a +1 character the other day, and it got me thinking. I like to roll stats, the 4d6 minus the lowest is a fun way to start the game (good or bad), but it's obviously not fair when someone has a 13 str and nothing else and someone else has a couple 18s and nothing below a 12. One way to fix this problem is with a point buy system. But... I dont really like point buy. I'm not exactly sure why. It's just a little too ridged for my taste I guess, and I miss the excitement of rolling, of not knowing what you're going to get. I know some people like it that way, but for the sake of this thread, lets just remove the 'point buy'/'set stats' option. Anyway, back to the problem of one character with high stats vs one with low stats. I think that it would be kind of neat to give those with low stats a bonus to help keep up with the multi 18s. For example, maybe the individual with the 13 and nothing else could forgo a level adjustment when playing alternate race, have some extra gold or a magic item attuned to him, or some other neat bonus. It offers up some interesting possiblitys for flavor in a game. All of a sudden I wouldn't mind rolling poorly because I would get to choose one of those new options. The only problem is how to balance this system. I think it would be best to measure by the total of the bonuses a character gets. It isnt perfect, but its something. Then maybe you could cross reference that with some sort of Gygaxian chart to determine what your "differently abled" character gets for compensation. Comments? Suggestions?
Shiftkitty 06-08-07, 11:46 AM	I'd play as is. If one member of the party has very little or nothing above average, so be it. Literature abounds with the little guy with the big friend. I would hope that the DM would be fair to the player and not target that character simply because his scores are nothing special, but I've got a cleric running right now who came up with only one semi-decent score, a WIS 14. Everything else is average with her CHA at 9 (well, it's up to 10 now). The player handles her with the idea that she has to work twice as hard to be considered half as good. She's out to prove her worth to her god (a homebrew deity) and to her party. Fortunately, this is one of those parties that works together instead of breaking down into anarchy during melee. She pumped her Healing skill up, knowing that with a low CHA she wouldn't be able to turn undead very well (although die rolls have proven her wrong), and further ingratiating the party to her. She's also unafraid to take on a battle, which also garners their respect. If a player has rolled absolutely horrible scores, I'd let them roll again, or else re-roll the stats that are unacceptable and take whatever comes up (unless they're equally abyssmal). Generally, I consider anything from 8-9 on up as acceptable, if challenging. Of course, some fun can be had with terrible scores. My brother created a ninja, taking the scores as they came up. When it came to DEX he threw the 3d6 (his preferred method for genuine randomness) and got a 4. We laughed our heads off and told him to re-roll. Then he got taht crazy look in his eyes and refused. Bakanakata, the Klutzy Ninja, actually lived a long time... He was pretty effective, too, because some of his failed rolls were failed spectacularly, often having dire consequences for the bad guys. A friend of mine told me about a couple of players who were creating Barbarians. Their INT scores were in the basement, so they played twins who were barely able to form words but could hit like nobody's business. Yes, it was a serious campaign with only comedy relief during the RP parts as the Paladin and the Cleric tried to teach them how to speak in more than slurred words. In the red box basic set, there was a rule that if you didn't like a score, you could subtract 2 from one stat to add 1 to the stat you're trying to pump up. I used it a couple of times, but never really cared for it. So I think an unbalanced stat sheet can offer some great opportunities for role-playing if your player wants to take it on. If not, I suppose there's no harm in a re-roll as long as they're not re-rolling until they get all 18s.
CryoSilver 06-08-07, 11:51 AM	You could let everyone in your group roll, and then have a vote on which set of rolls to use. This way, everyone still gets to roll, but everyone has the same numbers to work with at the end. This will tend to increase the power level of the party a bit. So, using this variant, I would not allow the rerolling of the lowest stat. Or you could have everyone in the group roll for a different stat or two (works best in 3 and 6 person groups, obviously).
De_Chain 06-08-07, 12:09 PM	I almost always play as is, which may be why I'vebeen wanting to try something a little different. Honestly, I think the idea roots into my strong dislike of level adjustments. I think drow are neat, but it can be hard to have them keep up with the rest of the party because they are missing two levels. However, if that drow had poor stats, then the level adjustment could possibly be reduced or eliminated. Problem is, I'd be afraid of the system getting out of hand, and someone gaining too much or too little power. A free magic item attuned to a preticualr person could work as well. Expecially a stat booster which would have kind of a neat flavor to it as well. In the end, you're probably right to stick to the rolls as is, Shiftkitty. But... I'd still like to see this thing through... maybe try it in a one-shot or something. You could let everyone in your group roll, and then have a vote on which set of rolls to use. This way, everyone still gets to roll, but everyone has the same numbers to work with at the end. This will tend to increase the power level of the party a bit. So, using this variant, I would not allow the rerolling of the lowest stat. Or you could have everyone in the group roll for a different stat or two (works best in 3 and 6 person groups, obviously). Interesting, but a little less personal than rolling for your own character.
Selena Ombrenoire 06-08-07, 12:19 PM	Here's an interesting idea from Otto the Bugbear Otto's random array (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=622415&highlight=random+array) -Selena
VrecknidjX 06-08-07, 12:48 PM	For example, maybe the individual with the 13 and nothing else could forgo a level adjustment when playing alternate race, have some extra gold or a magic item attuned to him, or some other neat bonus. It offers up some interesting possiblitys for flavor in a game. All of a sudden I wouldn't mind rolling poorly because I would get to choose one of those new options. The only problem is how to balance this system. I think it would be best to measure by the total of the bonuses a character gets. It isnt perfect, but its something. Then maybe you could cross reference that with some sort of Gygaxian chart to determine what your "differently abled" character gets for compensation. Comments? Suggestions?I think that something of this sort could work for non-RPGA home games. But, I'd leave it as purely a DM/player issue. If you roll up a set of crap stats, you and your DM can chat about something to do about it. You might want the challenge of playing a character with no higher score than a 14. Or, you might want your character to have a little extra gold, or whatever. But, I think that if you add anything to the character at this point, there has to be an in-game reason for it, and it should be part of your character's personality. That makes it more fun. Dave
CryoSilver 06-08-07, 12:51 PM	Interesting, but a little less personal than rolling for your own character. No method is going to be both perfectly fair and fully personal.
Shiftkitty 06-08-07, 02:51 PM	I don't use level adjustments in my campaign. If someone wants to play a drow, they play as a PC with all of the advantages and disadvantages. I can understand some ability adjustments for different races, but when it comes to advancing, "NO DELVER LEFT BEHIND!" :D So, if someone rolls up a character with one 13 and nothing else close, maybe let them add 1d6 for each unacceptable stat, in order, no rerolls? I've never been a fan of "point buy" systems, and if you really want interesting, "Amber" uses an auction system for stats. I never got into that, either, although the game was fun.
bonethug0108 06-08-07, 05:41 PM	I have a method. /leaves to look for it Edit: Snipped from another thread- Except we use a range, 70 to 80, so it gives some divergence, while still maintaining balance. I'm thinking of raising the minimum to 72, as that is the total you get from the standard Pb. My system is on the first page, but to sum it up, you roll and if the total is above the range, you remove points from any stat to get equal to the max. If it's below, you get bonus points to get you up to the minimum. Then, after adjusting (not meaning racial adj) to this range, you can switch up to six points between stats. You don't have to use the same stat for all six points. This throws in some customization. Oh, and your low stat can't be less than six, and the high not greater than 18, even after customization. Example: Range 70 to 80 PC1- 12, 13, 17, 7, 15, and 14 = 78(within the range). Then the player customizes to 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, and 8. PC2- 17, 10, 18, 13, 10, and 14 = 82(above the range, -2). The player takes 2 from 10 to get 8. Then customizes to 18, 17, 15, 13, 9, and 8. PC3- 8, 10, 8, 14, 15, and 9 = 64(below the range, + 6). The player adds 2 to 15 to get 17, and 4 to 8 to get 12. Then customizes to 17, 14, 12, 10, 9, and 8. I find this method has the fun of rolling dice, mixed with a little of the customiztion of pb. It also helps keep the group in a certain "power level" which is good for me as dm to help judge cr, and good for them as they are all relatively close in power so no one can really complain.
Pfisiar 06-08-07, 05:48 PM	Basically, have each player roll 3 sets of 4d6 drop lowest. The DM gets to order a reroll on any of the three rolls that is absurdly bad or absurdly powerful. Then the players choose which stat array they want to use. This gives the players choice while keeping variety in the game.