Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Koesherbacon 08-25-06, 02:53 PM	I read the "D&D and Alcohol Do Not Mix" thread and it got me thinking about what people are allowed to and not allowed to do during D&D sessions. I went to one group and they neglected to tell me there were no bathroom breaks. Only after 3 hours of playing and drinking water to stay hydrated (he did not have AC in his apartment) did I found out I was not allow to go to the bathroom. Needless to say my girlfriend and I left right then and there and never came back. Is "no bathroom breaks" a typical house rule?
Bulletproof_Condom 08-25-06, 02:57 PM	That's... retarded. They wouldn't let you use the bathroom? You're allowed to go to the bathroom during your SATs, why the hell should a game of Dungeons & Dragons be more pressing? That really is completely rediculous. I know a few gaming groups, and I can't think of a single one that'd respond to "I need to go pee," with "No. Sit down."
jimbo7987 08-25-06, 02:58 PM	Heck no! Thats just weird. How are you supposed to cheat in the toilet? "I'll just go get my sword that will destroy all of your undead minions... from the restroom!!! Mwa ha ha!"
crumpton23 08-25-06, 03:00 PM	That is really hard to believe. It is after reading stuff like this that I am reminded how grateful I should be for the group I play with. We try to limit stuff like that to our break period, but if you gotta go . . .
Koesherbacon 08-25-06, 03:03 PM	I know, it was really upsetting. Because, I'm sure others will back me up on this, when you gotta go.... you gotta go! It would make for a worse roleplaying experience for everybody since instead of thinking about what my character does I would have been thinking about why my bladder and kidneys were going to explode. Example: DM: What does your character want to do? Ev: I don't know what he does, but you're going to have a nice wetspot on your rug pretty soon... what do you want to do?
DragonDeadite 08-25-06, 03:45 PM	Heck no! Thats just weird. How are you supposed to cheat in the toilet? "I'll just go get my sword that will destroy all of your undead minions... from the restroom!!! Mwa ha ha!" "Fear my Undead Bane Tootsie Roll!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!" :rofl: :ahem: sorry... just felt this needed some potty humor. :D
Bulletproof_Condom 08-25-06, 04:02 PM	"Fear my Undead Bane Tootsie Roll!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!" :rofl: :ahem: sorry... just felt this needed some potty humor. :D Sometimes a joke will hit me like I've just been socked in the gut. I make kind of a "guuh" sound. The first half of your post, sir, was one of those jokes. Because, I'm sure others will back me up on this, when you gotta go.... you gotta go!I'll second that emotion.
Romtos 08-25-06, 04:10 PM	I once had the situation that we were reaching a climax in our game. The last fight of the session, almost to its end. We just had a bathroombreak an hour before that, and within five minutes was the next, since the whole session would end at that point. One of the players went during this battle, exactly on his turn. He didn't go the break the hour before that. "I didn't needed to then," he said. Well, then wait just five minutes! Then you will have plenty of time. :mad: I was not amused. Of course, this is totally different then the first story, imho.:)
Vestigial_Thumb 08-25-06, 04:12 PM	I was once told that I couldn't use the bathroom. It was not a D&D session, rather an invitation from an ex-friend. I could never suggest you repeat what I did. It would probably be against the CoC.
Koesherbacon 08-25-06, 04:17 PM	I was once told that I couldn't use the bathroom. It was not a D&D session, rather an invitation from an ex-friend. I could never suggest you repeat what I did. It would probably be against the CoC. Write it out in code :)
Lorianne 08-25-06, 04:18 PM	That's totally absurd :uh-huh: Why would anyone ever enforce such a rule?? Hell... no single player is every always active during play in my games. I've even made dinner while DMing (the players were RPing some private part which didn't involve any rulings... I love it when they do that, makes my job easier :rolleyes: ).
P_Zombie 08-25-06, 04:19 PM	One player in our group was kicked out for not being accurate enough when taking environmental breaks (if you know what I mean). Seems sort of harsh, but I wasn't the one who had to do the clean up.
Vestigial_Thumb 08-25-06, 04:28 PM	Write it out in code :) 01001000 01100101 00100111 01100100 00100000 01100010 01100101 01100101 01101110 00100000 01110101 01110011 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01101101 01111001 00100000 01100010 01100001 01110100 01101000 01110010 01101111 01101111 01101101 00100000 01100110 01101111 01110010 00100000 01110011 01100101 01110110 01100101 01110010 01100001 01101100 00100000 01111001 01100101 01100001 01110010 01110011 00101100 00100000 01100001 01101110 01100100 00100000 01101001 01110100 00100000 01101000 01100001 01100100 00100000 01101110 01100101 01110110 01100101 01110010 00100000 01100011 01101111 01101101 01100101 00100000 01110101 01110000 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100001 01110100 00100000 01001001 00100000 01101110 01100101 01100101 01100100 01100101 01100100 00100000 01110100 01101111 00100000 01110101 01110011 01100101 00100000 01101000 01101001 01110011 00101110 00100000 01010100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01100111 01110101 01111001 00100000 01110111 01100001 01110011 00100000 01100001 00100000 01110100 01101111 01110100 01100001 01101100 00100000 01101101 01100001 01101101 01100001 00100111 01110011 00100000 01100010 01101111 01111001 00100000 01100001 01101110 01100100 00100000 01110011 01101111 00100000 01101110 01100001 01101001 01110110 01100101 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100111 01100100 00100000 01101000 01110101 01110010 01101100 00101110 00100000 01000001 01101110 01111001 01110111 01100001 01111001 01110011 00101100 00100000 01001001 00100000 01101001 01101110 01110011 01101001 01110011 01110100 01100101 01100100 00100000 01100010 01100101 01100011 01100001 01110101 01110011 01100101 00100000 01001001 00100000 01100100 01101001 01100100 01101110 00100111 01110100 00100000 01110111 01100001 01101110 01110100 00100000 01110100 01101111 00100000 01100111 01101111 00100000 01110100 01101000 01110010 01101111 01110101 01100111 01101000 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01110100 01110010 01101111 01110101 01100010 01101100 01100101 00100000 01101111 01100110 00100000 01100111 01101111 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01101001 01101110 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01100010 01110101 01110011 01101000 01100101 01110011 00101110 00100000 01010011 01101111 00101100 00100000 01100001 01100110 01110100 01100101 01110010 00100000 01100001 01100010 01101111 01110101 01110100 00100000 00110001 00110101 00100000 01101101 01101001 01101110 01110101 01110100 01100101 01110011 00100000 01101111 01100110 00100000 01100110 01101001 01100111 01101000 01110100 01101001 01101110 01100111 00101100 00100000 01001001 00100000 01110111 01100101 01101110 01110100 00100000 01100001 01110000 01100101 01110011 01101000 01101001 01110100 00101110 00100000 01001001 00100000 01100010 01100001 01110011 01101000 01100101 01100100 00100000 01101000 01101001 01101101 00100000 01100001 01101110 01100100 00100000 01110111 01100101 01101110 01110100 00100000 01110100 01101111 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01100010 01100001 01110100 01101000 01110010 01101111 01101111 01101101 00100000 00101101 00100000 01101001 01101110 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01101100 01101001 01110110 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01110010 01101111 01101111 01101101 00100000 00101000 01100100 01101111 01101110 00100111 01110100 00100000 01110111 01101111 01110010 01110010 01111001 00101100 00100000 01101001 01110100 00100000 01110111 01100001 01110011 01101110 00100111 01110100 00100000 01100011 01100001 01110010 01110000 01100101 01110100 00101001 00101110 00100000 01001111 01101110 00100000 01101101 01111001 00100000 01110111 01100001 01111001 00100000 01101111 01110101 01110100 00101100 00100000 01001001 00100000 01110100 01110010 01100001 01110011 01101000 01100101 01100100 00100000 01100101 01110110 01100101 01110010 01111001 01110100 01101000 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01101001 01101110 00100000 01101101 01111001 00100000 01110000 01100001 01110100 01101000 00101110 00100000 01001100 01100001 01110011 01110100 00100000 01001001 00100000 01101000 01100101 01100001 01110010 01100100 00101100 00100000 01101000 01100101 00100111 01110011 00100000 01110011 01110100 01101001 01101100 01101100 00100000 01100001 00100000 01101101 01100001 01101101 01100001 00100111 01110011 00100000 01100010 01101111 01111001 00101110 :thumbsup: BTW, I'm not particularly proud of this, but I will never apologize on principle alone.
Koesherbacon 08-25-06, 05:03 PM	01001000 01100101 00100111 01100100 00100000 01100010 01100101 01100101 01101110 00100000 01110101 01110011 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01101101 01111001 00100000 01100010 01100001 01110100 01101000 01110010 01101111 01101111 01101101 00100000 01100110 01101111 01110010 00100000 01110011 01100101 01110110 01100101 01110010 01100001 01101100 00100000 01111001 01100101 01100001 01110010 01110011 00101100 00100000 01100001 01101110 01100100 00100000 01101001 01110100 00100000 01101000 01100001 01100100 00100000 01101110 01100101 01110110 01100101 01110010 00100000 01100011 01101111 01101101 01100101 00100000 01110101 01110000 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100001 01110100 00100000 01001001 00100000 01101110 01100101 01100101 01100100 01100101 01100100 00100000 01110100 01101111 00100000 01110101 01110011 01100101 00100000 01101000 01101001 01110011 00101110 00100000 01010100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01100111 01110101 01111001 00100000 01110111 01100001 01110011 00100000 01100001 00100000 01110100 01101111 01110100 01100001 01101100 00100000 01101101 01100001 01101101 01100001 00100111 01110011 00100000 01100010 01101111 01111001 00100000 01100001 01101110 01100100 00100000 01110011 01101111 00100000 01101110 01100001 01101001 01110110 01100101 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100111 01100100 00100000 01101000 01110101 01110010 01101100 00101110 00100000 01000001 01101110 01111001 01110111 01100001 01111001 01110011 00101100 00100000 01001001 00100000 01101001 01101110 01110011 01101001 01110011 01110100 01100101 01100100 00100000 01100010 01100101 01100011 01100001 01110101 01110011 01100101 00100000 01001001 00100000 01100100 01101001 01100100 01101110 00100111 01110100 00100000 01110111 01100001 01101110 01110100 00100000 01110100 01101111 00100000 01100111 01101111 00100000 01110100 01101000 01110010 01101111 01110101 01100111 01101000 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01110100 01110010 01101111 01110101 01100010 01101100 01100101 00100000 01101111 01100110 00100000 01100111 01101111 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01101001 01101110 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01100010 01110101 01110011 01101000 01100101 01110011 00101110 00100000 01010011 01101111 00101100 00100000 01100001 01100110 01110100 01100101 01110010 00100000 01100001 01100010 01101111 01110101 01110100 00100000 00110001 00110101 00100000 01101101 01101001 01101110 01110101 01110100 01100101 01110011 00100000 01101111 01100110 00100000 01100110 01101001 01100111 01101000 01110100 01101001 01101110 01100111 00101100 00100000 01001001 00100000 01110111 01100101 01101110 01110100 00100000 01100001 01110000 01100101 01110011 01101000 01101001 01110100 00101110 00100000 01001001 00100000 01100010 01100001 01110011 01101000 01100101 01100100 00100000 01101000 01101001 01101101 00100000 01100001 01101110 01100100 00100000 01110111 01100101 01101110 01110100 00100000 01110100 01101111 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01100010 01100001 01110100 01101000 01110010 01101111 01101111 01101101 00100000 00101101 00100000 01101001 01101110 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01101100 01101001 01110110 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01110010 01101111 01101111 01101101 00100000 00101000 01100100 01101111 01101110 00100111 01110100 00100000 01110111 01101111 01110010 01110010 01111001 00101100 00100000 01101001 01110100 00100000 01110111 01100001 01110011 01101110 00100111 01110100 00100000 01100011 01100001 01110010 01110000 01100101 01110100 00101001 00101110 00100000 01001111 01101110 00100000 01101101 01111001 00100000 01110111 01100001 01111001 00100000 01101111 01110101 01110100 00101100 00100000 01001001 00100000 01110100 01110010 01100001 01110011 01101000 01100101 01100100 00100000 01100101 01110110 01100101 01110010 01111001 01110100 01101000 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01101001 01101110 00100000 01101101 01111001 00100000 01110000 01100001 01110100 01101000 00101110 00100000 01001100 01100001 01110011 01110100 00100000 01001001 00100000 01101000 01100101 01100001 01110010 01100100 00101100 00100000 01101000 01100101 00100111 01110011 00100000 01110011 01110100 01101001 01101100 01101100 00100000 01100001 00100000 01101101 01100001 01101101 01100001 00100111 01110011 00100000 01100010 01101111 01111001 00101110 :thumbsup: BTW, I'm not particularly proud of this, but I will never apologize on principle alone. Ew. Also here's a link to convert it (http://nickciske.com/tools/binary.php)
Lorianne 08-25-06, 05:13 PM	I don't think that I would have done it like that O_O; But I can understand why you did it though...
Cincinnati 08-25-06, 06:19 PM	Is "no bathroom breaks" a typical house rule? Only for groups consisting of total wackjobs! :D
Vestigial_Thumb 08-25-06, 06:32 PM	I don't even ask if I can go. My gaming group consists completely of my friends, so that has never been a problem. That other guy never played D&D. And Lorianne, it's nice that someone, at least on some small level, understands where I was coming from when I did it. I'm still not proud of doing it, though.
Lord Mhoram 08-25-06, 06:52 PM	Sheesh. That is really out there. Our only rules are no Alcohol, and no smokers-one of the players has severe asthma, and even 2 hour old smoke in close proximity for a long time can trigger an attack.
Koesherbacon 08-25-06, 07:21 PM	Sheesh. That is really out there. Our only rules are no Alcohol, and no smokers-one of the players has severe asthma, and even 2 hour old smoke in close proximity for a long time can trigger an attack. I have that same kind of asthma. I have take my inhaler everywhere I go, and keep multiples through out the apartment, in the gym bag, in the car, in my GF's purse, in my parent's house, etc, etc, etc. So I totally agree with your rules for smoking.
Nom 08-26-06, 12:59 AM	One of my RPG policies is that we have a 5-10 minute break every 1.5 to 2 hours. And by break I mean everyone is supposed to get up, walk around, get a coffee, go bathroom, or whatever. Basically get some exercise and give your mind a rest. Also get any OOC chatter off your chest. It makes for a much better and faster flowing game. More than about 2 hours concentration and your mind becomes too fatigued to think efficiently.
PlaDeDump 08-26-06, 01:05 AM	I sometimes feel guilty because I tend to take a lot of bathroom breaks. Okay so I drink a lot of water and it seems to go right through me. If I don't have my bottle of water, I'll get dehydrated real fast and will get a headache, guaranteed. Everyone has their quirks. Finding a group that is tolerant of people's little quirks is like finding money on the sidewalk, Gold.
pres_man 08-26-06, 01:05 AM	"Fine! By the way, I have a new familiar, his name is Mr. Hanky. Here is the fig for you!"
Ranger REG 08-26-06, 04:04 AM	Is "no bathroom breaks" a typical house rule? Nope. My group establish breaks in-between hours. I would have asked why do you have such an albeit silly rule.
MistWolf 08-26-06, 01:35 PM	NO! No bathroom breaks! You must continue to play until the DM releases you. You must have discipline! Extra experience points if you hold it until your bladder bursts in a shower of Mountain Dew and bowels explode, painting the walls with masticated pizza
Chicharron 08-26-06, 01:39 PM	I don't even understand why this is a topic. People establishing times for bathroom breaks? Feeling "guilty" for going to the bathroom? What's wrong with you people. It's a game for goodness sake! The group can't pause for the entire 4 minutes it takes to go to the can?
renren 08-26-06, 02:33 PM	not having bathroom breaks is not only stupid, but could cause problems... When you gotta go, ya gotta go!
Monteblanco 08-26-06, 02:40 PM	Koesher Bacon, I would keep distance from those people if I was you...
Ocom 08-26-06, 02:51 PM	These things may simply ruin the mood and slows the game. In a average game others group uses the bathroom like 3-12 times each. My average is 0.3 =) The guys drink like litres of cola every time and are always snacking. It's usually like this. Combat begins, initiative is rolled and called, somebody has to use the bathroom, two or three rounds go by and someone else uses the bathroom. Battle ends, someone goes to the bathroom, DM starts to cantinue the story but needs to use the bathroom himself.
Chicharron 08-26-06, 03:10 PM	These things may simply ruin the mood and slows the game. In a average game others group uses the bathroom like 3-12 times each. My average is 0.3 =) The guys drink like litres of cola every time and are always snacking. It's usually like this. Combat begins, initiative is rolled and called, somebody has to use the bathroom, two or three rounds go by and someone else uses the bathroom. Battle ends, someone goes to the bathroom, DM starts to cantinue the story but needs to use the bathroom himself. So.
Koesherbacon 08-26-06, 04:25 PM	Koesher Bacon, I would keep distance from those people if I was you... Done and done. And I mean done! There was no point continuing to play with them. Their rules will silly and needless. Not to mention cruel.
Shotgun_badger 08-26-06, 04:38 PM	Yea I mean my group tries to keep the breaks to our rest break times, but I've never heard our GM outright say "no you can't go to the restroom".
aotrscommander 08-26-06, 08:32 PM	I sometimes feel guilty because I tend to take a lot of bathroom breaks. Okay so I drink a lot of water and it seems to go right through me. If I don't have my bottle of water, I'll get dehydrated real fast and will get a headache, guaranteed. Everyone has their quirks. Finding a group that is tolerant of people's little quirks is like finding money on the sidewalk, Gold. I hear ya. I sometimes find going to the loo is a great excuse for some thunking time when the PCs spring something unexpected on me...
The_Jester 08-26-06, 09:03 PM	There are limits to bathroom breaks. Going during or right before your turn is rude. Taking a book and spending 10 or 20 minutes in there is bad taste (no Taking 20 on poop checks!!). And moments of great dramatic tension and RPing are a bad place to announce "I have to go potty." BUT they do need to be allowed. And before climactic scenes or long combats it's usually a good idea for the DM to offer a quick "stretch legs" break (especially for the smokers).
AnonymousInternets 08-26-06, 09:06 PM	Stupid rule (what the original post was talking about, not the post just before mine). With that said, get around it by saying you feel like you're gonna hurl, and need to get to the toilet.
The_Jester 08-26-06, 09:12 PM	Stupid? STUPID?! I hate you! You dirty, smell, ugly son of a... oh wait, not the post before yours. Yeah, it is a stupid rule.
Vestigial_Thumb 08-26-06, 09:54 PM	Call Amnesty. Or NATO. Sic them on the people. Or the Coastguard.
Solaris 08-26-06, 11:41 PM	Taking a book and or spending 10 or 20 minutes in there is bad taste There, fixed. Though maybe it's a good way to make sure that nobody ever wants to borrow your books...
Anguish2 08-27-06, 12:03 AM	My (small) group deliberately uses unscheduled bathroom breaks. For the DM to say "I'm going for a pee, be right back", it's ominous. The players either flick through books considering their next characters, or start to plan their next actions. For the players to say "I'm going for a pee, be right back" gives everyone a chance to take a breather and plan ahead. Frankly, the best thinking (I both DM and play) comes in the bathroom. I know the DM is considering something nasty on-the-fly when his fly is undone. I know when I really need to think better of my plans to "whack the lich on the nose with my new mwk sap", I can take a potty break. Invariably I'll realize that perhaps rolling a Diplomacy check and asking the lich "um, sir, how might I and my (remaining) humble companions serve your interests" is the right next action. Admittedly the larger a group the harder this gets. We don't overtly rule, but it's super-rare for anyone to break in the middle of a combat. And we're laid-back enough that if someone did, we'd view it as a tension-builder, not a pace-breaker. That being said, some groups are very serious about being in-character and never wasting time. Fine. That's their style. Find a gaming group that isn't so rigid. Their way isn't wrong... it's just different from what you want.
Vestigial_Thumb 08-27-06, 12:39 AM	There, fixed. Though maybe it's a good way to make sure that nobody ever wants to borrow your books... Wow, you and The_Jester have aboviously never seen my group. 10-20 minutes? You've gotta be kidding me. Try 20-30. And the books we take... Then again, it may be the fact that we're completely oblivious to the passing of time and anything smaller than a coffee table.
BlaineTog 08-27-06, 12:55 AM	Yeah, we've never really bothered to codify the bathroom rules. Just, try to go after your turn, and be quick, but that's just good manners. If your turn comes up while your in the bathroom, someone else'll probably just play your character for you, and/or ask you what to do.
Koesherbacon 08-27-06, 02:29 AM	Frankly, the best thinking (I both DM and play) comes in the bathroom. I'd go so far to say all the best thinking all together comes in the bathroom! Some of my most fantastic ideas ever have come while on the can or in the shower!
Braids 08-27-06, 02:40 AM	Naw, in fact because the bathrooms are so close to our gaming room we can easily play durring the bathroom breaks. We do have a rule that dice may not enter the bathroom.
Koesherbacon 10-10-06, 03:24 PM	Naw, in fact because the bathrooms are so close to our gaming room we can easily play durring the bathroom breaks. We do have a rule that dice may not enter the bathroom. Do you yell out that you need somebody to roll for you?
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Azezel 10-10-06, 05:45 PM	I sometimes find going to the loo is a great excuse for some thunking time I want to quote that out of context, just because I can.
Andron 10-10-06, 05:55 PM	This is exactly why a gamer should have a packet of depends on them at all times... Seriously, though, refusing someone the use of the bathroom is rude in the least. Luckily the bathroom off the room we play in. There is no limit to how many times you can go there during the game, or when. L
Vestigial_Thumb 10-10-06, 06:03 PM	just wrong... just sooo wrong. Why?
Raven Dark 10-10-06, 08:40 PM	I have been really sick these past few weeks. Unfortunately, last week my cold manifested itself as a bad case of diarrhea during one of our games. I went to the bathroom once during our group’s break time, and then again 10 minutes later during the game (I told everyone to keep playing without me and that I would be right back). When I came out of the restroom, I found that they were nice enough to wait on me irregardless of what I said. Ten minutes later my fellow players took notice of my growing discomfort. The DM then asked me if we should take another break, to which I responded “No, I’ve already gone to the bathroom twice already.” The DM called a break and made me go to the bathroom. I must say, if I didn’t have such understanding friends to play with I don’t know that I would have made it through the night with any dignity at all. If somebody refused me a bathroom break, I would go to the restroom anyway—regardless of the consequences (indeed, if somebody told me know the consequences would be dire—for them).
Treymordin 10-10-06, 08:52 PM	If people have to go, when nature calls, most people do not have call waiting, I allow them to go.
mathogre 10-10-06, 09:53 PM	I've GOT to go. Be right back. No. We're playing a serious game. Sit down. You're a file system checking moron [for the *Nix cognoscenti]. I AM going to go. Feel free to choose the location. :looloo:
Pandaemoni 10-10-06, 10:06 PM	This is why God made adult diapers. :D
Benicus 10-10-06, 10:35 PM	We have rules on this in our group, you are not allowed to cough, breath, fart, sneeze or pee in any session. Ever. ;) Just kidding but yeah, wackos.
Lunar_Shadow 10-10-06, 10:50 PM	I never have to leave during battle, mostly because I have a cast iron bladder. We usually atart around 9 pm and about 4am (And 2 12 packs of Mountain Dew later, bymyself I might add) I wizz like a race horse. We usually end arounf 4 and get some sleep so if I didn't use the can I would water log my friend's couch.
babysamurai 10-11-06, 06:54 AM	Maybe they had ulterior motives for not letting you use their bathroom? Maybe they’re really unsanitary people, and they were ashamed because their toilet looks like a bear shat in it.
Koesherbacon 10-11-06, 02:04 PM	I've GOT to go. Be right back. No. We're playing a serious game. Sit down. You're a file system checking moron [for the *Nix cognoscenti]. I AM going to go. Feel free to choose the location. :looloo: Haha. Player: Listen, I gotta go. DM: Sorry, you can't use the bathroom. Player: I'm not sure you understand the urgency here. Its either your can or your rug. You make the call. 10, 9, 8, 7, ... Maybe they had ulterior motives for not letting you use their bathroom? Maybe they’re really unsanitary people, and they were ashamed because their toilet looks like a bear shat in it. No, that was definitely not the case. Their entire apartment was spotless, including the bathroom when I went regardless of their protesting. _____ In my current group we're always drinking and/or eating so its only fair to just allow players and DM to hit the can whenever we need to. None of us really mind taking an unscheduled break, we're all friends so it works out well now. Rarely we find ourselves going during a battle, but if that happens we all just take a quick break and continue the battle like nothing happened. Its just hard for me to grasp how some people can be so naive to think somebody can just hold it for hours. I mean the average D&D session is around 6 hours right? Nobody should be forced to hold it until a designated break time! Sorry about that rant, got a little carried away... ;)
Pandaemoni 10-11-06, 02:08 PM	Seriously, go back to that game and when everyone else brings soda or snacks for the group, you bring a big box of Depends and hand them out.
Vestigial_Thumb 10-11-06, 02:10 PM	No, that was definitely not the case. Their entire apartment was spotless, including the bathroom when I went regardless of their protesting. You went against their wishes? Damn, maybe I should have done that instead of performing the vile act.
Sulaco 10-11-06, 03:11 PM	Is "no bathroom breaks" a typical house rule? Not in any house that doesn't stink of urine. Bathroom breaks are not an issue, but smoke breaks are. I really don't give a flying rat's-ass if you are a self-destructive nicotine addict, we don't break the game just so you can go out to coat your lungs in carginogens and come back in smelling like crap.
Grand Theft Otto 10-11-06, 03:14 PM	Is "no bathroom breaks" a typical house rule? Yes, the Tycho Brahe rule is actually from 1st edition.
Drohem 10-11-06, 04:24 PM	It is absolutely absurd. First, I would asked if they were serious after done laughing. Once I realized they were serious, I would have done just as you and your wife did, leave and never return. Albeit, probably with some laughing and comments about "stupid people." LOL
Ranger REG 10-11-06, 06:48 PM	Seriously, go back to that game and when everyone else brings soda or snacks for the group, you bring a big box of Depends and hand them out. And if you're a true "Dungeon" Master (or Mistress), you command them to put them on in front of you. :evillaugh
Rian Lightblade 10-11-06, 07:06 PM	Is "no bathroom breaks" a typical house rule? Sometime you read something that makes you say WTF:confused: and has you scratching your head wondering how something so ridiculous could be conceived of, let alone said aloud. This is one of those situations, what the hell is wrong with those people? :mad: Honestly though during my games people can only go to the bathroom, if they have failed a "Hold It In" test, with a TN of 10 and modifiers (+/-) depending on the type of drinks and snacks consumed;)
Pandaemoni 10-11-06, 08:08 PM	And if you're a true "Dungeon" Master (or Mistress), you command them to put them on in front of you. :evillaugh Of course. What's the alternative? Let them change in the bathroom? :D
Koesherbacon 10-12-06, 01:19 AM	Not in any house that doesn't stink of urine. Bathroom breaks are not an issue, but smoke breaks are. I really don't give a flying rat's-ass if you are a self-destructive nicotine addict, we don't break the game just so you can go out to coat your lungs in carginogens and come back in smelling like crap. How right you are. I have pretty bad asthma so smoking is definitely a no-no in my group. Fortunately, hardly any of my friends smoke, and those who do are really good about it, and for the most part never do it when I'm around.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 10-12-06, 08:59 AM	Actually, there's a very simple way to convince people to let you take a bathroom break. Stare at them. Unzip your fly. Make the sound of it unzipping as loud and deliberate as possible.
FRRC 10-12-06, 09:08 AM	Personally, if I was you, I would have pee'ed myself. Jokes on him, you just wizzed all over his seats.
Renvale999 10-12-06, 09:10 AM	The only weird rule I ever encountered was we weren't allowed to take the DM's books to the bathroom to go number 2(it was his house as well). I didn't mind and he said that the smell stayed with the books...personally I've never noticed this....if it wasn't for D&D books I would be soooo bored going number 2. So I just started bring my own books. I'd tried being serious when I wrote this now I can't stop laughing...
Vestigial_Thumb 10-12-06, 09:10 AM	Personally, if I was you, I would have pee'ed myself. Jokes on him, you just wizzed all over his seats. Seems there are people that agree with me.
FRRC 10-12-06, 09:15 AM	The only weird rule I ever encountered was we weren't allowed to take the DM's books to the bathroom to go number 2(it was his house as well). I didn't mind and he said that the smell stayed with the books...personally I've never noticed this....if it wasn't for D&D books I would be soooo bored going number 2. So I just started bring my own books. I'd tried being serious when I wrote this now I can't stop laughing... Paper can absorb moisture which means it also absorbs strong smells. Luckily for DnD books, they're covered in a type of gloss and already have a strong smell with them which can help prevent or hide other odours :)
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 10-12-06, 11:57 AM	Paper can absorb moisture which means it also absorbs strong smells. Luckily for DnD books, they're covered in a type of gloss and already have a strong smell with them which can help prevent or hide other odours :) And for which I am eternally grateful. See, 5 or 6 years ago one of my dogs urinated on one of my 2e books. It still smells.
Sulaco 10-12-06, 01:02 PM	How right you are. I have pretty bad asthma so smoking is definitely a no-no in my group. Fortunately, hardly any of my friends smoke, and those who do are really good about it, and for the most part never do it when I'm around. Well I don't have asthma but I have developed a severe sensitivty in the past few years. While direct cigarette smoke makes me cough the vile noctine haze that clings to some smokers that is far, far worse. Simply being within a few feet os some smokers make my eyes start to well up and turn red, my throat close up, I cough like mad and I get a sever headache. It is totally mad. Thing is, it is only some people. I don't know if it is brand, body chemistry, or a combination of both, but whatever it is it is an incredibly miserable experience for me. I am all for anyone's right to do pretty much anything they wish so long as that act does not infringe on anyone else's rights, and the smokers who stink of nicotine infringe on my right not to have to endure pain and discomfort.
Sulaco 10-12-06, 01:05 PM	And for which I am eternally grateful. See, 5 or 6 years ago one of my dogs urinated on one of my 2e books. It still smells. If a pet had urinated on one of my books 5 or 6 years ago I'd have a 5 or 6 year old completely pet urine-free copy of the book. For me, if a cat pees on something it goes in the trash.
The White Sorcerer 10-12-06, 01:40 PM	Extra experience points if you hold it until your bladder bursts in a shower of Mountain Dew and bowels explode, painting the walls with masticated pizza NOOO! The mental image! Obliviate! OBLIVIATE! It just won't go away...:weep:
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 10-12-06, 01:53 PM	If a pet had urinated on one of my books 5 or 6 years ago I'd have a 5 or 6 year old completely pet urine-free copy of the book. For me, if a cat pees on something it goes in the trash. Unfortunately, the book was already out of print. The smell has probably gone by now. It smelled a lot less the last time I checked it, about a year or so ago.
Koesherbacon 10-12-06, 02:14 PM	Well I don't have asthma but I have developed a severe sensitivty in the past few years. While direct cigarette smoke makes me cough the vile noctine haze that clings to some smokers that is far, far worse. Simply being within a few feet os some smokers make my eyes start to well up and turn red, my throat close up, I cough like mad and I get a sever headache. It is totally mad. Thing is, it is only some people. I don't know if it is brand, body chemistry, or a combination of both, but whatever it is it is an incredibly miserable experience for me. I bet it might have something to do with air circulation too. Without something to circulate the air in a wide open area (outside air, wind, etc) would probably make it a little easier. The worst for both of us would probably be if they still had smoking on airplanes. Man, could you imagine flying for 5 hours from Los Angeles to the East Coast with that smell and foul-lung-polution chemicals constantly being recirculated? I would probably die!
Celestine_AutumnStar 10-12-06, 02:42 PM	You went against their wishes? Damn, maybe I should have done that instead of performing the vile act. No. Anyone stupid enough to argue with you for 15 minutes about whether or not you should be allowed to use their toilet got what they deserved. I hope he thought about that while he was on his hands and knees cleaning up too!
Celestine_AutumnStar 10-12-06, 02:44 PM	If a pet had urinated on one of my books 5 or 6 years ago I'd have a 5 or 6 year old completely pet urine-free copy of the book. For me, if a cat pees on something it goes in the trash. The Guy with the Silent Bob Avatar is right, urine soaked books go in the trash. If its out of print then get to surfing the web till you find one.
Darth K'Trava 10-12-06, 07:15 PM	That's totally absurd :uh-huh: Why would anyone ever enforce such a rule?? Hell... no single player is every always active during play in my games. I've even made dinner while DMing (the players were RPing some private part which didn't involve any rulings... I love it when they do that, makes my job easier :rolleyes: ). A couple of our players have been known to make dinner during game. And we don't have that stupid "no bathroom breaks" rule either. We try to wait until after our turn and then go. If not, then the game holds until they return. And the rest of us sit and chit-chat in the meantime.
Darth K'Trava 10-12-06, 07:18 PM	Ew. Also here's a link to convert it (http://nickciske.com/tools/binary.php) Thanks for the link. And. Ew. Just. Plain. EW. But then he deserved it.
Herald@Large 10-12-06, 07:22 PM	On a slightly different tangent -- if you are the host for the game, please make sure: 1. The bathroom is clean -- scrub out the sink & the toilet, and empty the wastebasket. 2. There's clean towels and soap readily available. 3. There's a full roll of TP on the spool, and at least one extra roll plainly visible. 4. A shot of air freshener can't hurt.
Darth K'Trava 10-12-06, 07:43 PM	Originally Posted by Sulaco Bathroom breaks are not an issue, but smoke breaks are. I really don't give a flying rat's-ass if you are a self-destructive nicotine addict, we don't break the game just so you can go out to coat your lungs in carginogens and come back in smelling like crap. My, aren’t we fierce? He's only being Sulaco. That's how he acts. :D
Iddig Ap Nil 10-12-06, 08:11 PM	These things may simply ruin the mood and slows the game. In a average game others group uses the bathroom like 3-12 times each. My average is 0.3 =) The guys drink like litres of cola every time and are always snacking. It's usually like this. Combat begins, initiative is rolled and called, somebody has to use the bathroom, two or three rounds go by and someone else uses the bathroom. Battle ends, someone goes to the bathroom, DM starts to cantinue the story but needs to use the bathroom himself.I agree with Chicarron on this, I'm diabetic, if I have to go, I have to go. Period. No ifs ands, or buts.
mathogre 10-12-06, 08:28 PM	I recall something from the past that the US Congress spends about a third of its energy passing very important bills like, "National Facial Quality Toilet Tissue Day" and other related twaddle. Likewise, this will be the 84th posting in this thread, assuming no one posts another response before me. The overall response to the OP should be clear by now. Flush, cover the potty, clean your hands, and turn off the light. Now roll initiative!
Vestigial_Thumb 10-12-06, 09:42 PM	And. Ew. Just. Plain. EW. But then he deserved it. So you have mixed feelings about this?
High Octane 10-12-06, 11:11 PM	All I have to say is..... "MOM! TOILET!!"
ArcTan 10-12-06, 11:48 PM	These things may simply ruin the mood and slows the game. In a average game others group uses the bathroom like 3-12 times each. My average is 0.3 =) The guys drink like litres of cola every time and are always snacking. It's usually like this. Combat begins, initiative is rolled and called, somebody has to use the bathroom, two or three rounds go by and someone else uses the bathroom. Battle ends, someone goes to the bathroom, DM starts to cantinue the story but needs to use the bathroom himself. Then if this is really a problem you take away the snacks and the drinks, not the bathroom.
ArcTan 10-12-06, 11:54 PM	Not in any house that doesn't stink of urine. Bathroom breaks are not an issue, but smoke breaks are. I really don't give a flying rat's-ass if you are a self-destructive nicotine addict, we don't break the game just so you can go out to coat your lungs in carginogens and come back in smelling like crap. If that's your attitude towards smoking, you're unlikely to have many close friends who are smokers anyway, so hey. Problem ends up solving itself.
Celestine_AutumnStar 10-13-06, 12:02 AM	If that's your attitude towards smoking, you're unlikely to have many close friends who are smokers anyway, so hey. Problem ends up solving itself. Not entirely. Its alot of give and take in my experiences. They won't smoke at my house but do at theirs...
Ranger REG 10-13-06, 04:18 AM	This is why God made adult diapers. :D :uh-huh: I thought He made fig leaf. :evillaugh
The White Sorcerer 10-13-06, 04:41 AM	If that's your attitude towards smoking, you're unlikely to have many close friends who are smokers anyway, so hey. Problem ends up solving itself. It doesn't necessarily work that way. My group has two smokers. Both know that while in my home, there are no cigarette breaks, and anyone reeking of tobacco is turned away at the door. They still come here, and remain my friends.
babysamurai 10-13-06, 05:20 AM	It doesn't necessarily work that way. My group has two smokers. Both know that while in my home, there are no cigarette breaks, and anyone reeking of tobacco is turned away at the door. They still come here, and remain my friends. That’s a bit harsh. Why couldn’t they go outside and have a smoke every couple of hours and have a few mints afterwards?
The White Sorcerer 10-13-06, 07:08 AM	That’s a bit harsh. If not catering to addictions is harsh, then sure. Why couldn’t they go outside and have a smoke every couple of hours and have a few mints afterwards? A few mints won't remove the infernal stench from their clothes and hair. Is there any particular reason why there should be cigarette breaks?
High Octane 10-13-06, 07:13 AM	One thing smokers should have realized pretty quick, and most of them probably have, is that their habit annoys those who dont smoke. Its not give and take on that, Its not like a smoker has ever said "Can you light up or go over there? Your not smoking is bothering me."
babysamurai 10-13-06, 08:00 AM	If not catering to addictions is harsh, then sure. A few mints won't remove the infernal stench from their clothes and hair. Is there any particular reason why there should be cigarette breaks? See, the only reason I don’t give up smoking, is because I would hate to become the holier than thou non-smoker. I tend not to judge people on whatever they like/consume. I appreciate the whole second hand smoke thing, but if I go outside, why should it be a problem. As long as I do not hurt another person on this planet, it’s none of their business what I choose to read, watch, eat, or smoke.
aotrscommander 10-13-06, 08:08 AM	I tend not to judge people on whatever they like/consume. So says the man with the pathalogical aversion to beards that you've mentioned more than once...
babysamurai 10-13-06, 08:31 AM	So says the man with the pathalogical aversion to beards that you've mentioned more than once... I’m a hermaphrodite, actually, and it’s not the beards themselves, it's usually the people attached to them.
aotrscommander 10-13-06, 08:36 AM	I’m a hermaphrodite, actually, and it’s not the beards themselves, it's usually the people attached to them. I shall remember that for future reference. What is your preferred pronoun?
FRRC 10-13-06, 08:41 AM	"Pronoun" - A Noun that that is clearly better than other nouns as it is considered "Pro".
babysamurai 10-13-06, 08:42 AM	I shall remember that for future reference. What is your preferred pronoun? Whatever makes you comfortable, sugar.
Tyler Do'Urden 10-13-06, 09:28 AM	See, the only reason I don’t give up smoking, is because I would hate to become the holier than thou non-smoker.So the whole thing about the inevitable cancer in various parts of the body, the fact that secondhand smoke causes all the same issues, the price, and the knowledge that the product is deliberately made more addictive by companies that knew thirty years ago that they were killing people are all balanced out by the fear of being a little annoying sometimes?
babysamurai 10-13-06, 09:33 AM	So the whole thing about the inevitable cancer in various parts of the body, the fact that secondhand smoke causes all the same issues, the price, and the knowledge that the product is deliberately made more addictive by companies that knew thirty years ago that they were killing people are all balanced out by the fear of being a little annoying sometimes? I'll smoke, I'll get the tumours, I'll die – deal? Thank you, America.
WizO_Mengde 10-13-06, 10:28 AM	I'll smoke, I'll get the tumours, I'll die – deal? Thank you, America. That works... except it doesn't though. Sorry to step in (as a poster only, mind :D), but smoking is not a "victimless" affair. It affects everyone around you, either via second hand smoke (which, if you ever have children, will affect them with no choice on their part) or even through other means, like those caring about you being hurt as your body degrades after the years of carcinogen and chemical abuse.
babysamurai 10-13-06, 11:03 AM	That works... except it doesn't though. Sorry to step in (as a poster only, mind :D), but smoking is not a "victimless" affair. It affects everyone around you, either via second hand smoke (which, if you ever have children, will affect them with no choice on their part) or even through other means, like those caring about you being hurt as your body degrades after the years of carcinogen and chemical abuse. That’s bit cut and dried don’t you think. First of all, I never smoke around people that don’t smoke, or don’t want to be near someone smoking. I respect that. As for making family/friends worry: Every time my wife gets in an automobile, I worry. Every time my brother takes a sip of alcohol, he’s damaging his brain and I worry. Every time my father flies over from LA, I worry. Every time my nephew plays sports, I worry. Etc. You never stop caring/worrying about those you love.
WizO_Mengde 10-13-06, 11:09 AM	That’s bit cut and dried don’t you think. First of all, I never smoke around people that don’t smoke, or don’t want to be near someone smoking. I respect that. So you're saying if you have children you will NEVER smoke in their presence? Including long car rides, or even in your own home? If so, I applaud you for that. As for making family/friends worry: Every time my wife gets in an automobile, I worry. Every time my brother takes a sip of alcohol, he’s damaging his brain and I worry. Every time my father flies over from LA, I worry. Every time my nephew plays sports, I worry. Etc. You never stop caring/worrying about those you love. That's not the question here. Technically speaking everything you used an example doesn't equate to a habitual smoking of cigarettes. Automobiles have danger, but it isn't a 100% danger. The same for sports, flying, or "sipping" alcohol. The only one that could come close would be if the sipping of alcohol was regular ABUSE of it. In addition, each thing you mentioned can have POSITIVE, HELPFUL qualities if done correctly, including yes, drinking, as doctors have found that 1 drink of say... wine a day actually improves cardio vascular health. Smoking has NO positive, healthful benefits. So because of all that, yes, it is pretty cut and dried.
angryman 10-13-06, 11:17 AM	All I'm saying is, after a few of Samuel Adam's finest at the D&D table, the DM *better* let me go to the can, or I'll be forced to whip out the decanter of endless......
freedeath 10-13-06, 11:18 AM	My 2 cents: as a non-smoker, I find it ironic that people are so concerned about smoking when there is so much air pollution around; there is no such thing as being a non-smoker if you breathe. There's always something toxic around, but putting it in a stick and lighting it does seem absurd. It's more about limiting your exposure than making pariahs out of smokers.
Lunar_Shadow 10-13-06, 11:20 AM	If my DM refused to let me go to the bathroom, I would quietly unzip my pants whip it out and **** on his leg, all while staying in my chair. He'd never see it coming. (I couldn't type this without laughing)
babysamurai 10-13-06, 11:25 AM	So you're saying if you have children you will NEVER smoke in their presence? Including long car rides, or even in your own home? If so, I applaud you for that. That's not the question here. Technically speaking everything you used an example doesn't equate to a habitual smoking of cigarettes. Automobiles have danger, but it isn't a 100% danger. The same for sports, flying, or "sipping" alcohol. The only one that could come close would be if the sipping of alcohol was regular ABUSE of it. In addition, each thing you mentioned can have POSITIVE, HELPFUL qualities if done correctly, including yes, drinking, as doctors have found that 1 drink of say... wine a day actually improves cardio vascular health. Smoking has NO positive, healthful benefits. So because of all that, yes, it is pretty cut and dried. No, it isn’t. My grandmother smoked like a chimney and died of old age. My mother and father smoke and have never had cancer, whereas my brother has never smoked in his life yet contracted testicular cancer last year Sometimes it’s the luck of the draw, baby! And I hope you’re not trying to justify having a drink every day, because that would be sad. No one needs to do any of these things; it comes down to personal choice. Remember that health nut Jim Fix that died while jogging. …I rest my case.
ArcTan 10-13-06, 11:33 AM	That's not the question here. Technically speaking everything you used an example doesn't equate to a habitual smoking of cigarettes. Automobiles have danger, but it isn't a 100% danger. The same for sports, flying, or "sipping" alcohol. The only one that could come close would be if the sipping of alcohol was regular ABUSE of it. In addition, each thing you mentioned can have POSITIVE, HELPFUL qualities if done correctly, including yes, drinking, as doctors have found that 1 drink of say... wine a day actually improves cardio vascular health. Smoking has NO positive, healthful benefits. Nicotine has actually been proven, as a mild stimulant, to have positive effects on memory, concentration and judgment (in the sense of being able to focus when making a decision). It lowers the pulse rate and relaxes the body. In other words, if it didn't actually *feel good* and have some positive effect on the mind it wouldn't be addictive in the first place -- and, frankly, its effects on the mind as an addictive drug really are far more benign than, say, drinking hard liquor or smoking pot or other things people do. It has also been demonstrated that although *statistically* smoking clearly damages health and lowers life expectancy, there are many individuals who smoke like chimneys and go on to outlive the majority of human beings. Nature is funny like that. There's *never* a "100% danger" short of actually taking a gun and shooting yourself in the face. And, after all, overeating and remaining overweight has as much or *more* of a proven statistical detriment to health and lifespan as smoking, and yet people don't feel as free to jump all over someone for eating a bacon cheeseburger as they do for smoking a cigarette. (Can a bacon cheeseburger be *not that harmful* to your health if you do it in moderation and try to be healthy otherwise? Sure. But it can never be actively *helpful* to your health. Same deal with cigarettes.) In the end it's all one, in my mind. Sure, I'm polluting the air by smoking cigarettes. I'm also polluting the air by being lazy and driving my car to work instead of getting up an hour earlier and walking. I'm lowering my lifespan by choosing to smoke. I'm also lowering my lifespan by choosing to watch a lot of TV in a given week instead of going out to the gym. They're all choices people make, and it's every individual's decision to balance "healthful" choices against pleasurable ones. (And what really does get lost in all the anti-smoking brouhaha is that smoking *feels good* and *is fun*. It's *bad for you*, sure, but so are tons of other things that feel good and are fun.)
ArcTan 10-13-06, 11:38 AM	That's not the question here. Technically speaking everything you used an example doesn't equate to a habitual smoking of cigarettes. Automobiles have danger, but it isn't a 100% danger. The same for sports, flying, or "sipping" alcohol. The only one that could come close would be if the sipping of alcohol was regular ABUSE of it. In addition, each thing you mentioned can have POSITIVE, HELPFUL qualities if done correctly, including yes, drinking, as doctors have found that 1 drink of say... wine a day actually improves cardio vascular health. Smoking has NO positive, healthful benefits. BTW, just to get specific about it, the red wine thing is dumb, has been shown to have been overstated, and by taking a pill or eating raw grapes you can achieve a similar effect without the known negative side effects of alcohol. If you still actually drink the wine rather than taking a pill because you *like* the taste of wine and you *like* the feeling of getting buzzed, you're no different from someone who takes a smoke once in a while because he *likes* it. Seriously, if you evaluate each choice by how "healthful" it is, there's a lot of things you simply won't do. Ever drink a can of Coke? There's nothing at all good for you about that. Just plain empty calories that hit your body with a glucose spike and help you gain weight without being as hydrated. But hey -- it *tastes good*. I still do things like eat hamburgers, drink Coke and so on despite being pretty well aware of the health risks because these things are *enjoyable* and make my life pleasurable and the overall effect they'll have on my lifespan, in moderation, won't be that huge anyway -- won't exceed the standard deviation for average lifespan garnered from things like the possibility I might get hit by a bus tomorrow. Unless you *never* eat a piece of food like a bacon cheeseburger or drink a sugary carbonated beverage or, I dunno, sit out in the sun for a while without sunblock or something, you *do* make choices that are entirely "unhealthful" out of desire for convenience, pleasure or some other gain -- and that isn't fundamentally different from the choice to smoke.
freedeath 10-13-06, 11:50 AM	Unless you *never* eat a piece of food like a bacon cheeseburger or drink a sugary carbonated beverage or, I dunno, sit out in the sun for a while without sunblock or something, you *do* make choices that are entirely "unhealthful" out of desire for convenience, pleasure or some other gain -- and that isn't fundamentally different from the choice to smoke. Fortunately, there is no such thing as second-hand calories; eating poorly only affects your own health; anything expelled into the atmosphere affects others. Driving a car is far worse that eating a burger. I'm pretty sure nicotine is more addictive than alcohol or marijuana; people can go longer without a drink or toke than without a butt. I completely agree with your other points, though; it's all about choosing your poison.
Keevo_Darkwood 10-13-06, 11:52 AM	So the whole thing about the inevitable cancer in various parts of the body, the fact that secondhand smoke causes all the same issues, the price, and the knowledge that the product is deliberately made more addictive by companies that knew thirty years ago that they were killing people are all balanced out by the fear of being a little annoying sometimes? I, for the record, am a smoker (in fact, I've got one lit even as I type this :P ). Like freedeath put it, in more places than not in most industrialized countries, one can't really help but experience second-hand air pollution every day. As for the price...that's just the government trying to squeeze as much tax revenue out of a group of social pariahs who lack the lobbying power to fight this on their own behalf. As for cancer...well, yeah. There's a chance I'll get it eventually if I don't quit smoking, but guess what? Having a really long life isn't something that everyone considers to be the whole point of life. All these years I'm supposedly knocking off my lifespan with cigarettes...ya think I'm losing them now? Hell, no....they're lost off the back end. The alternative is to live on to a time when I've got no real hair on my head, no real teeth in my mouth, no real cartilege in my joints, and no real memory of what I'd been doing five minutes earlier. No, thanks...I think I'll pass. :smirk: There's *never* a "100% danger" short of actually taking a gun and shooting yourself in the face. Actually, Kurt Cobain had to do it twice to get the job done, and that's just something I could remember off the top of my head. Everything else you've said, though, is quite well said. :)
freedeath 10-13-06, 11:56 AM	The alternative is to live on to a time when I've got no real hair on my head, no real teeth in my mouth, no real cartilege in my joints, and no real memory of what I'd been doing five minutes earlier. No, thanks...I think I'll pass. :smirk: Oh man, it's too late for me..... what were we talking about? Where are my teeth?
Keevo_Darkwood 10-13-06, 11:56 AM	Fortunately, there is no such thing as second-hand calories... I beg to differ. Ever heard a woman say something like, "geez, that cake is so yummy, just looking at it adds 5 pounds to my thighs"? :P Oh man, it's too late for me..... what were we talking about? Where are my teeth? Good one, that. :rofl:
freedeath 10-13-06, 12:02 PM	I beg to differ. Ever heard a woman say something like, "geez, that cake is so yummy, just looking at it adds 5 pounds to my thighs"? :P Good one, that. :rofl: I used to hear that all the time; then I developed selective hearing, and just started saying "Yes, dear". Life is much simpler now...... and why is it always the slim ones who think they're too fat; I'd like to reply "if you were fat, I'd leave you.... (kidding, dear)"
The White Sorcerer 10-13-06, 12:44 PM	[Nicotine] lowers the pulse rate and relaxes the body. In other words, if it didn't actually *feel good* and have some positive effect on the mind it wouldn't be addictive in the first place The smokers I know always seem very edgy and nervous when they haven't had a cigarette in a while. They claim that tobacco calms their nerves. Of course it bloody does! But would they be so nervous if they had never smoked in the first place? It's like saying drugs cure cold turkey...
WizO_Mengde 10-13-06, 01:26 PM	No, it isn’t. My grandmother smoked like a chimney and died of old age. My mother and father smoke and have never had cancer, whereas my brother has never smoked in his life yet contracted testicular cancer last year Sometimes it’s the luck of the draw, baby! Actually, statistically speaking it's not the luck of the draw. It increases your chance of cancer, lung disorders, and plain makes you look and smell bad. And I hope you’re not trying to justify having a drink every day, because that would be sad. Why not? If it helps you, do it. And it's been proven that one drink per day CAN help you. Remember that health nut Jim Fix that died while jogging. …I rest my case. No offense, but you really don't have a case here. You're using a lot of logical fallacies to try and say that smoking is an ok choice, when in actuality it is not, while everything else you described DOES have positive effects, if used in moderation. Nicotine has actually been proven, as a mild stimulant, to have positive effects on memory, concentration and judgment (in the sense of being able to focus when making a decision). It lowers the pulse rate and relaxes the body. In other words, if it didn't actually *feel good* and have some positive effect on the mind it wouldn't be addictive in the first place -- and, frankly, its effects on the mind as an addictive drug really are far more benign than, say, drinking hard liquor or smoking pot or other things people do. That's nice. I'm not talking about nicotine as a pure substance. I'm talking about smoking. Just as I said drinking one glass of red wine per day is ok but do not advocate drinking heavily. If people were able to use small amounts of nicotine just for the stimulant benefits that would be different then smoking or chewing, which IS heavily habit forming and DOES cause more negative benefits then the minor positive benefits. Though even those benefits pale in comparision to those that can be gotten from the other examples above, to be sure, especially when one can gain the same benefits from caffiene without the secondary effects that smoking or chewing gives. And, after all, overeating and remaining overweight has as much or *more* of a proven statistical detriment to health and lifespan as smoking, and yet people don't feel as free to jump all over someone for eating a bacon cheeseburger as they do for smoking a cigarette. (Can a bacon cheeseburger be *not that harmful* to your health if you do it in moderation and try to be healthy otherwise? Sure. But it can never be actively *helpful* to your health. Same deal with cigarettes.) The difference between the two being that bacon cheesburgers are a) not habit forming b) not cancer causing and c) don't affect others directly via second hand clohrestral. BTW, just to get specific about it, the red wine thing is dumb, has been shown to have been overstated, and by taking a pill or eating raw grapes you can achieve a similar effect without the known negative side effects of alcohol. If you still actually drink the wine rather than taking a pill because you *like* the taste of wine and you *like* the feeling of getting buzzed, you're no different from someone who takes a smoke once in a while because he *likes* it. Except that one glass of red wine does not "buzz" you, unless you have a very low tolerance for alcohol. In fact, scientifically speaking, it barely registers. And I wasn't pointing out that the alcohol does it specifically, I was pointing out that alcohol can have a POSITIVE effect if used in moderation, wheras smoking does not. Seriously, if you evaluate each choice by how "healthful" it is, there's a lot of things you simply won't do. Ever drink a can of Coke? There's nothing at all good for you about that. Just plain empty calories that hit your body with a glucose spike and help you gain weight without being as hydrated. Glucose is good for you at certain times. And your body DOES need a certain minimum number of calories to function efficiently. In addition, the Caffiene works as a stimulant, much like nicotine, but without the side effects that smoking a cigarette causes. As part of a more balanced diet, one can of coke a day can actually have no negative long term effects. The same can't be said for smoking. BUT... we're starting to derail the thread (and by starting I mean sent it off the track several hours ago), so I suggest we table this :)
Koesherbacon 10-13-06, 01:48 PM	That works... except it doesn't though. Sorry to step in (as a poster only, mind :D), but smoking is not a "victimless" affair. It affects everyone around you, either via second hand smoke (which, if you ever have children, will affect them with no choice on their part) or even through other means, like those caring about you being hurt as your body degrades after the years of carcinogen and chemical abuse. I definitely agree as somebody who suffers from bad asthma. Just because you're smoking and enjoying it does not mean I will not end up in the emergency room getting a shot of adrenaline because the asthma-attack that ensued could not be helped with my fast acting inhaler. Sure, I might be a special case because I have asthma, but some people are not as open about having it as I am. When I first met my friends I made it clear that I have asthma and smoking is something that really can cause permanent harm to my lungs because I cannot get enough oxygen as it is, for the most part. The problem is that while most people cannot detect smoke on clothes, furniture and other objects; I have the unique ability to start wheezing uncontrollably. Even if its undetectable it can still cause serious harm to me.
JiobiValen 10-13-06, 01:59 PM	0110000101101100011011000010000001111001 0110111101110101001001110111001001100101 0010000001100010011000010111001101100101 0010000001100001011100100110010100100000 0110001001100101011011000110111101101110 0110011100100000011101000110111100100000 011101010111001100100001 I couldn't help it.. Its your fault Vestigial_Thumb!
Vyvyan Basterd 10-13-06, 02:15 PM	That’s a bit harsh. Why couldn’t they go outside and have a smoke every couple of hours and have a few mints afterwards? It's not the only the breath of a smoker that causes problems for non-smokers. One of my regulars is a habitual smoker. Spending six hours with him on a Friday night leaves MY clothes smelling like vile cigarette smoke, even though he smokes outside. There have even been times we've been caught up in some massive battle and he doesn't take a smoke break and my clothes still end of reeking just because of his presence. That said, he is a good friend and our friendship helps me tolerate the horrid stench. Also as good friends, we pointed out to him what smoking was doing to his teeth. They went from yellowed to black. Disgusting. And I pity the emo "so I'll die" crap. You'll feel much differently when you're an old man wasting away, helpless, in pain, seeing the grief on your loved ones faces as they feel helpless. Then you starve to death or fade out in slow lingering death. That would be my father and grandfather respectively. Their last days were spent in misery and pain. I'm sure when they were younger (for my dad that would be his death at 42) they thought the same, stupid, self-destructive thing. But hey, maybe you'll get lucky and die of old age before the cigs kill you. :D
Renvale999 10-13-06, 02:51 PM	Personally, I find smoking a kind of scape-goat, as you will. Consider this...Ads on television and the like have made smoking to be very, very bad for you. Now there is scientific evidence of this to back it up. Large tobacco makers have been targeted for tons of law-suits and some have been found frivolous, others have not. Some politicians have based alot of their campaigns on getting rid of smokers. It's become a hot-issue and has been banned at resturaunts and even some public places. In short, there seems to be a campaign to de-humanize those who smoke, making them bad people...or simply people who are worth less to society because they smoke. Now, I understand that smoking HAS BEEN CLINICALLY PROVEN TO KILL YOU PRE-MATURELY...fine and dandy. But alchohol can kill you...been proven in excess. And don't say alchohol doesn't kill other people like second-hand smoke...how many people die each year from drunk-drivers?? Yet you don't see a campaign to de-humanize those that drink? In fact you see ads for alchohol all over TV...ads campaigning FOR people to drink. I don't smoke, for the simple fact I think they taste bad...but I'm sure as h*ll not gonna judge anyone who does. We all have digusting habits(Yes, everyone one us...those that p*** in the shower to those of us that bite our toenails) Where just not open about it...and yes I'm aware that those don't kill us or other people, doesn't make them any less disgusting.
Vyvyan Basterd 10-13-06, 03:00 PM	In short, there seems to be a campaign to de-humanize those who smoke, making them bad people...or simply people who are worth less to society because they smoke. I agree that this is wrong. I have no problem with my friend, my mom, my aunt, just their habit. As to the fact that we all have bad habits. I agree there too, but most civil people keep those disgusting habits to themselves. To do otherwise would be rude. Just as I believe its rude for smokers to practice their disgusting habit in public where I have to suffer for it. Do you know how many times walking from work to the train station I've gotten stuck behind a portable chimney loosing their stench behind them. Each time I feel like hustling to get in front of them and letting loose the foulest fart I can muster to give them a taste of what they are doing to other pedestrians. But I don't because I am relatively polite.
The White Sorcerer 10-13-06, 03:09 PM	0110000101101100011011000010000001111001 0110111101110101001001110111001001100101 0010000001100010011000010111001101100101 0010000001100001011100100110010100100000 0110001001100101011011000110111101101110 0110011100100000011101000110111100100000 011101010111001100100001 Dude, you misspelled 01111001011011110111010101110010!
Renvale999 10-13-06, 03:12 PM	I agree that this is wrong. I have no problem with my friend, my mom, my aunt, just their habit. As to the fact that we all have bad habits. I agree there too, but most civil people keep those disgusting habits to themselves. To do otherwise would be rude. Just as I believe its rude for smokers to practice their disgusting habit in public where I have to suffer for it. Do you know how many times walking from work to the train station I've gotten stuck behind a portable chimney loosing their stench behind them. Each time I feel like hustling to get in front of them and letting loose the foulest fart I can muster to give them a taste of what they are doing to other pedestrians. But I don't because I am relatively polite. Well, then we agree to disagree...personally I find smoking to very digusting...but I'm still not gonna judge someone because of a habit.
The White Sorcerer 10-13-06, 03:15 PM	Well, then we agree to disagree...personally I find smoking to very digusting...but I'm still not gonna judge someone because of a habit. Wasn't Vyvyan's point that he judges the habit, not the person? Hate the sin, not the sinner?
Tyler Do'Urden 10-13-06, 06:17 PM	My 2 cents: as a non-smoker, I find it ironic that people are so concerned about smoking when there is so much air pollution around; there is no such thing as being a non-smoker if you breathe. It's a matter of density and preventability. The air where I live is pretty clean as long as I don't stand next to busses or drive behind trucks with the windows open. Now if someone is sitting next to me smoking, I can see quite plainly that there is a rapidly opaquing cloud filling the air around us that can be very easily avoided if I just say, "Hey, can you take that outside?" I'm not in a position to pass legislation that requires busses and trucks to meet the same emissions standards as cars, but I am in a position to tell you not to smoke in my house.
FRRC 10-13-06, 06:38 PM	My 2 cents Your money is no good here, we only accept Platinum peices! :) Peronsally, I have no problem with other smokers. The majority of my friends smoke, even my best friend. But I dont smoke. Simple reason: My mother died from lung cancer. However, I've grown to accept that people smoke and I dont ask them to stop, its their choice to destroy their body. I dont feel the need to take this "hollier than thou" attitude to smokers. People complain about all sorts of things because they have this attitude. For example, "I hate the smell", well what about those deodorents you use? They smell, will you stop using them if I ask you to? Or any natural odour you have for that matter, you stink so change it because I dont like it. To be perfectly honest, I'd probably be a smoker if it werent for my mother. I like the smell.
Vestigial_Thumb 10-13-06, 08:41 PM	0110000101101100011011000010000001111001 0110111101110101001001110111001001100101 0010000001100010011000010111001101100101 0010000001100001011100100110010100100000 0110001001100101011011000110111101101110 0110011100100000011101000110111100100000 011101010111001100100001 01110011 01101111 01101101 01100101 01100010 01101111 01100100 01111001 00100000 01110011 01100101 01110100 00100000 01110101 01110000 00100000 01110101 01110011 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01100010 01101111 01101101 01100010
Vyvyan Basterd 10-13-06, 08:45 PM	Well, then we agree to disagree...personally I find smoking to very digusting...but I'm still not gonna judge someone because of a habit. To be clearer I should have said: "I agree that 'the practice of villanizing the smoker' is wrong." Not that your statement was wrong. So we can agree to agree. :D
JiobiValen 10-13-06, 11:32 PM	01110011 01101111 01101101 01100101 01100010 01101111 01100100 01111001 00100000 01110011 01100101 01110100 00100000 01110101 01110000 00100000 01110101 01110011 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01100010 01101111 01101101 01100010 0101100101101111011101010010000001101000 0110000101110110011001010010000001101110 0110111100100000011000110110100001100001 0110111001100011011001010010000001110100 0110111100100000011100110111010101110010 0111011001101001011101100110010100100000 0110110101100001011010110110010100100000 0111100101101111011101010111001000100000 01110100011010010110110101100101 To be on topic.. I'm a social smoker, to smoke a pack a week is alot for me. Despite this I greatly dislike second hand, even my own and I try to be courteous to you non smoking people.
The White Sorcerer 10-14-06, 06:50 AM	Do you know how many times walking from work to the train station I've gotten stuck behind a portable chimney loosing their stench behind them. Each time I feel like hustling to get in front of them and letting loose the foulest fart I can muster to give them a taste of what they are doing to other pedestrians. Great minds think alike, apparently. I had the exact same idea while reading your post but before getting to this part of it.
Mightyflapjack 10-14-06, 02:34 PM	Simple solution... "So I can not go to the bathroom?" Ok.. Stand up and unzip your fly. I think he will change the rule OR I will take a leak on his floor and go home.. Either way I win.
Vestigial_Thumb 10-14-06, 02:38 PM	Simple solution... "So I can not go to the bathroom?" Ok.. Stand up and unzip your fly. I think he will change the rule OR I will take a leak on his floor and go home.. Either way I win. Unlike you'd do, I never warned the guy.
Ranger REG 10-14-06, 07:16 PM	To be perfectly honest, I'd probably be a smoker if it werent for my mother. I like the smell. Oh, my god, you're an addicted secondhand smoker and huffer ... in denial. Regarding smell and poor-quality deodorant, I've yet to hear evidence that deodorant, including the bargain brand name, actually cause lung cancer or accelerate the development and growth.
Ranger REG 10-14-06, 07:23 PM	Unlike you'd do, I never warned the guy. So will be my swift and violent response to your taking a leak in my kitchen ... without warning. :evillaugh Having said that, you gotta give players a bathroom break or an intermission if your session will run longer than 90 minutes. We're humans.
High Octane 10-14-06, 08:06 PM	Having said that, you gotta give players a bathroom break or an intermission if your session will run longer than 90 minutes. We're humans. If we were elves we could go like camels. Look at Vaarsuvius.
ArcTan 10-15-06, 04:06 PM	Fortunately, there is no such thing as second-hand calories; eating poorly only affects your own health; anything expelled into the atmosphere affects others. Driving a car is far worse that eating a burger. I'm pretty sure nicotine is more addictive than alcohol or marijuana; people can go longer without a drink or toke than without a butt. I completely agree with your other points, though; it's all about choosing your poison. Sure, but it depends on how you weigh addictiveness. Someone who's deeply addicted to heroin can still go longer without a hit than someone who's deeply addicted to cigarettes can go without a smoke. On the other hand, one hit of heroin has a much, much, much bigger effect on your body than one cigarette.
ArcTan 10-15-06, 04:24 PM	Actually, statistically speaking it's not the luck of the draw. It increases your chance of cancer, lung disorders, and plain makes you look and smell bad. Statistics are *about* the luck of the draw. "Increasing your chance" does not describe a physical process that deterministically must happen in your body -- it describes the fact that over a large population many people -- but not all -- manifest a particular physical process. Driving to work rather than walking to work increases your chance of dying in a car accident. Whether you actually do die in a car accident, however, depends on the luck of the draw. Why not? If it helps you, do it. And it's been proven that one drink per day CAN help you. ...Of red wine, which has more to do with the secondary chemicals generated by fermentation than it does the alcohol itself. You can take those chemicals in pill form rather than drinking the actual wine. They actually sell these pills now in order to capitalize from the whole (greatly, greatly exaggerated) benefits of these chemicals in the press. If you still drink the actual wine and take alcohol into your system rather than simply taking the pills, then you are doing something that puts your health at risk for the sake of some kind of pleasure that isn't necessary to get a "healthful" benefit. No offense, but you really don't have a case here. You're using a lot of logical fallacies to try and say that smoking is an ok choice, when in actuality it is not, while everything else you described DOES have positive effects, if used in moderation. Smoking, in moderation, has a positive effect. It makes me feel good. I can concentrate better. (Even if a nicotine addiction does decrease your ability to concentrate when not smoking, taken as a net factor smokers who are currently under the influence of nicotine generally can concentrate better than nonsmokers in general. This, too, has been proven in a study.) Are the only positive effects that matter to you things that have to do with physical health? Playing D&D has no positive effects on my health that I can name, and in fact I'd probably be healthier if I took that time and instead used it to go jogging or lift weights. That's nice. I'm not talking about nicotine as a pure substance. I'm talking about smoking. Just as I said drinking one glass of red wine per day is ok but do not advocate drinking heavily. If people were able to use small amounts of nicotine just for the stimulant benefits that would be different then smoking or chewing, which IS heavily habit forming and DOES cause more negative benefits then the minor positive benefits. Though even those benefits pale in comparision to those that can be gotten from the other examples above, to be sure, especially when one can gain the same benefits from caffiene without the secondary effects that smoking or chewing gives. *shrug* If you drink the wine for the buzz you get from the ethanol, which has nothing but negative effects on your health in the long term, and try to justify it based on the other substances in the wine, how's that different from gaining a positive psychological effect (which is far more positive than the overall *damaging* psychological effect of ethanol on the mind's ability to reason and make decisions) from nicotine and accepting the side effects of the other substances in the smoke? Sure, smoking has a lot more risks involved in it than drinking caffeine. Still not fundamentally different to the degree that it requires this enormous moral outrage against it. Sitting out in the sun and tanning is just as if not more dangerous in the long term and likely to cause cancers and likely to reduce your lifespan and likely to give you wrinkles and harm your appearance than smoking. Yet people do the equivalent of putting filters in cigarettes -- buying ever more expensive sunblocks and so on -- rather than simply giving up tanning, because tanning is, well, *fun*. The difference between the two being that bacon cheesburgers are a) not habit forming b) not cancer causing and c) don't affect others directly via second hand clohrestral. There are people who would disagree with you about the habit-forming qualities of unhealthy eating. Compulsive eaters are a problem. The stomach stretching to accomodate too-large portions is a problem. Developing a dependence on sudden *spikes* of blood sugar -- rather than the slow release of blood sugar into your body that is normal for human beings -- to feel good, the need for a "quick pick-me-up" of a soda or a bag of chips, is a problem. Is cancer really that much worse than heart disease? Heart disease kills quite a few more people every year, you know. (And there are those studies -- so many studies! -- that talk about how eating foods like bacon that are preserved with nitrites can cause cancer in the long term.) Secondhand smoke is really a different issue from smoking in general. The whole point of this argument is defending smokers' right to come to a nonsmoker's house and hang out as long as they have the opportunity to go outside for a smoke once in a while -- which is being bashed as being "disruptive and unnecessary" in the way that bathroom or food breaks aren't, because giving smokers the luxury to step outside and smoke is "feeding an addiction" and therefore morally suspect. I would argue that to be morally consistent these same people would refuse to go out to dinner to a restaurant that serves unhealthy fatty foods (regardless of what they themselves order) with their friends, especially if one of their friends is overweight. Except that one glass of red wine does not "buzz" you, unless you have a very low tolerance for alcohol. In fact, scientifically speaking, it barely registers. And I wasn't pointing out that the alcohol does it specifically, I was pointing out that alcohol can have a POSITIVE effect if used in moderation, wheras smoking does not. Alcohol *itself* cannot. The red wine thing is a stupid example because it involves chemicals associated with alcohol, not alcohol. Glucose is good for you at certain times. And your body DOES need a certain minimum number of calories to function efficiently. In addition, the Caffiene works as a stimulant, much like nicotine, but without the side effects that smoking a cigarette causes. As part of a more balanced diet, one can of coke a day can actually have no negative long term effects. The same can't be said for smoking. Oh, come on. How many people drink soda as a substitute for a meal? The calories provided by soda are *not* used in order to suppress appetite, feed the stomach and keep you going. That's the whole problem with soda. Soda contains high-fructose corn syrup, which tastes really sweet, is really cheap and *does not fill you up*. You can drink thousands of calories' worth of it without feeling full. Drinking a soda basically adds those calories on top of all the *normal* calories you'll have to eat during the day in order to satiate your hunger, without cutting into them at all. The use of high-fructose corn syrup as a sweetener really is equivalent to feeding people drugs. Once you become used to it, other things don't taste as sweet anymore (I tried an old-school Dr. Pepper with real imperial cane sugar -- the kind that they still make in a few bottling plants -- the other day, and sure enough, it tasted very bland compared to a "regular" Dr. Pepper), you get used to the quick highs you get from the high sugar content rather than the slow burn you get from eating low-caloric-density foods, and it starts wreaking havoc on your body -- straining your pancreas' ability to produce insulin, slowly putting extra pounds on you in fat, etc. -- without you being aware of it. HFCS probably has a lot to do with the rapidly increasing rates of Type II diabetes in our population. That said, do I think eating foods with HFCS is a sin? No. Do I think that companies that use HFCS are somehow inherently evil? No. Have I entirely stopped consuming soft drinks and processed foods? No. Can you live a relatively long, healthy life while drinking a can of Coke every day? Sure. Can you live a relatively long, healthy life while stepping out for a cigarette every day? Also, sure. In *both cases* you can demonstrate that, in fact, your life will be negatively affected by both habits -- and that whatever you're doing to compensate, exercising, eating right, taking your meds, etc., becomes more strenuous and more expensive in the long haul -- but the effect of the habit in moderation is often much lower than the effect of normal variance in the human lifespan. (If I were *absolutely certain* that I would not get hit by a truck tomorrow and die, in other words, I'd probably take far fewer risks with my health, because I would know with *absolute certainty* how many minutes each overindulgence "takes off of my life". But saying that the subtraction of those minutes is an absolute fact is a fallacy -- the degree of uncertainty of whether you'll die for completely random, unrelated reasons is the reason that, as some people put it, "Life is too short to worry about everything".)
ArcTan 10-15-06, 04:26 PM	Your money is no good here, we only accept Platinum peices! :) Peronsally, I have no problem with other smokers. The majority of my friends smoke, even my best friend. But I dont smoke. Simple reason: My mother died from lung cancer. However, I've grown to accept that people smoke and I dont ask them to stop, its their choice to destroy their body. I dont feel the need to take this "hollier than thou" attitude to smokers. People complain about all sorts of things because they have this attitude. For example, "I hate the smell", well what about those deodorents you use? They smell, will you stop using them if I ask you to? Or any natural odour you have for that matter, you stink so change it because I dont like it. To be perfectly honest, I'd probably be a smoker if it werent for my mother. I like the smell. If it really bothered people *that friggin' much* then sure, it'd be polite to change it. If you really do stink because you haven't showered or because you wear a really nasty kind of aftershave, and it reaches the point of distraction for the people you're around, the polite thing to do is change it. However, being a real hardass about something not because it really bothers *you* that much but because of some higher conceptual objection is something I have little patience for. I don't like those particular angry vegetarians who get mad at people who eat meat in front of them, or those particular angry teetotallers who get mad at people for sipping a beer in front of them, or those particular angry nonsmokers who find even the faint, barely noticeable smell of smoke on someone who's just stepped out for a single cigarette to be intolerable because they've decided smoking is the one personal sin they will crusade against.
FRRC 10-15-06, 04:29 PM	Oh, my god, you're an addicted secondhand smoker and huffer ... in denial. I'm not addicted, I don't feel the need for more. I just like the smell, the same as liking the smell of a new book or a freshly cooked loaf of bread. Regarding smell and poor-quality deodorant, I've yet to hear evidence that deodorant, including the bargain brand name, actually cause lung cancer or accelerate the development and growth. I was making a point to the people who were talking about the smell itself and not the effects of the smell. People whinge that they hate the smell of cigarette smoke without taking into consideration that they have a smell that someone else might not like. Also, the official papers that state how many people die of lung cancer each year fail to state how many of those died from second-hand smoke. As far as those papers are concerned, zero people died from second-hand smoke. There is no official proof that second-hand smoke kills. Not as far as I know anyway. Prehaps we should move the discussion onto smoking in bathrooms while taking a break :)
ArcTan 10-15-06, 04:31 PM	I definitely agree as somebody who suffers from bad asthma. Just because you're smoking and enjoying it does not mean I will not end up in the emergency room getting a shot of adrenaline because the asthma-attack that ensued could not be helped with my fast acting inhaler. Sure, I might be a special case because I have asthma, but some people are not as open about having it as I am. When I first met my friends I made it clear that I have asthma and smoking is something that really can cause permanent harm to my lungs because I cannot get enough oxygen as it is, for the most part. The problem is that while most people cannot detect smoke on clothes, furniture and other objects; I have the unique ability to start wheezing uncontrollably. Even if its undetectable it can still cause serious harm to me. And my mother has an extremely nasty peanut allergy, such that if there's any trace of peanut dust in food she'll have horrible gastrointestinal problems for the rest of the night. Some people are even worse off -- if you open up a packet of peanuts near where they can smell the peanut oil, the presence of the oils in the air will cause them severe discomfort and maybe even more serious symptoms. Sure. So if one of those people wants to come to my house, and he's a friend, I make sure there's no peanuts in the house. The existence of such people does not make me stop eating peanuts in general, or act as evidence in favor of the idea that eating peanuts is in general a morally objectionable act. (Even though you can make an argument that peanuts are an unhealthy high-caloric-density food, and that overexposure to peanut oils as peanuts become more commonly used in all kinds of snack foods was what caused the alarming rise in incidence of peanut allergies in the first place, etc.)
FRRC 10-15-06, 04:33 PM	The existence of such people does not make me stop eating peanuts in general, or act as evidence in favor of the idea that eating peanuts is in general a morally objectionable act. (Even though you can make an argument that peanuts are an unhealthy high-caloric-density food, and that overexposure to peanut oils as peanuts become more commonly used in all kinds of snack foods was what caused the alarming rise in incidence of peanut allergies in the first place, etc.) Invent a virus that gives everyone peanut allergies and war can be fought by opening hundreds of packets of peanuts :P
FeceMan 10-15-06, 05:06 PM	If a pet had urinated on one of my books 5 or 6 years ago I'd have a 5 or 6 year old completely pet urine-free copy of the book. For me, if a cat pees on something it goes in the trash. Aw, poor kitty. Vestigial, you were quite the psycho when you were a kid, weren't you?
The White Sorcerer 10-15-06, 09:11 PM	which is being bashed as being "disruptive and unnecessary" in the way that bathroom or food breaks aren't, because giving smokers the luxury to step outside and smoke is "feeding an addiction" and therefore morally suspect. There are no moral issues in me banning smoke breaks. It's just the smell. I don't care if you take a few mints after you smoke, the stench clings to your hair and clothes, and I will smell it and become nauseated.
Vestigial_Thumb 10-15-06, 09:18 PM	Vestigial, you were quite the psycho when you were a kid, weren't you? I never took crap from no one, and I ain't about to start.
Koesherbacon 10-16-06, 02:42 PM	How'd this thread get turned into flaming smokers (no pun intended) and smokers defending themselves? Also, just to clarify, I was a cognitive neuroscience major in during my undergrad years, so I know that the brains of those who are addicted have completely reorganized themselves. It really is not their fault they need nicotine, their neurochemistry has just come to rely on it, so while somebody like me finds smoking to be disgusting (and even dangerous due to my asthma) I do also understand that individuals need to take smoking breaks if they are addicted. In a perfect world smoking would not trigger anybody's asthma or cause other discomfort but the reality is there are people who rely on nicotine from cigarettes and others of us cannot survive with nicotine in the air. Its a double-edged sword and there will never be a solution other than those who smoke should be willing to take it outside into a well ventilated area so others who are negatively effected by smoking do not have to be in harms way.
Vyvyan Basterd 10-16-06, 03:27 PM	Statistics are *about* the luck of the draw. "Increasing your chance" does not describe a physical process that deterministically must happen in your body -- it describes the fact that over a large population many people -- but not all -- manifest a particular physical process. Driving to work rather than walking to work increases your chance of dying in a car accident. Whether you actually do die in a car accident, however, depends on the luck of the draw. This is where medical statistics differ from mathematical statistics. You are born with a threshold to contract cancer. Some people's genetic chance is so low they contract the disease no matter how healthy a life-style they maintain. Certain activities or events push you closer to that threshold. One event is age. Smoking is an activity that pushes you closer to that threshold. Your threshold has some basis in genetics, but just because other family members outlived the cancer threshold and died of old age does not mean you will. There are some factors you can't control, so it is best to target those you can. I am diabetic, so I know how hard it is to control those so-called controllable factors. I can sympathize with smokers who know they should quit, but just can't. Smoking, in moderation, has a positive effect. It makes me feel good. I can concentrate better. Someone who smokes in moderation probably wouldn't carry the stench I've mentioned above. Or maybe the smokers I know smoke cheap, smelly brands. Sure, smoking has a lot more risks involved in it than drinking caffeine. Still not fundamentally different to the degree that it requires this enormous moral outrage against it. Sitting out in the sun and tanning is just as if not more dangerous in the long term and likely to cause cancers and likely to reduce your lifespan and likely to give you wrinkles and harm your appearance than smoking. Yet people do the equivalent of putting filters in cigarettes -- buying ever more expensive sunblocks and so on -- rather than simply giving up tanning, because tanning is, well, *fun*. Yes, but unless you spend WAY too long out in the sun you won't carry that burnt odor around for others to suffer from. There are people who would disagree with you about the habit-forming qualities of unhealthy eating. Compulsive eaters are a problem. The stomach stretching to accomodate too-large portions is a problem. Developing a dependence on sudden *spikes* of blood sugar -- rather than the slow release of blood sugar into your body that is normal for human beings -- to feel good, the need for a "quick pick-me-up" of a soda or a bag of chips, is a problem. Two wrongs make a right? You should be left alone because you perceive that unhealthy eaters aren't persecuted in the media? Guess what, overeaters are demonized just as much as smokers. Watch a night of TV and count fat jokes vs. anti-smoking commercials. Fat people are the butt of all the mean-spirited jokes these days. And you don't have to be all that much overweight to be considered "fat" in this society. Is cancer really that much worse than heart disease? Heart disease kills quite a few more people every year, you know. (And there are those studies -- so many studies! -- that talk about how eating foods like bacon that are preserved with nitrites can cause cancer in the long term.) Smoking increases your risk of heart disease too. The only reason smoking is being targetted more in this thread than the other bad habits you mention is because of its effects on others around the smoker. No one said one disease is worse than the other or that other bad habits are lesser than smoking. Other bad habits just don't (usually) effect others that spend a night in close proximity. Secondhand smoke is really a different issue from smoking in general. The whole point of this argument is defending smokers' right to come to a nonsmoker's house and hang out as long as they have the opportunity to go outside for a smoke once in a while -- which is being bashed as being "disruptive and unnecessary" in the way that bathroom or food breaks aren't, because giving smokers the luxury to step outside and smoke is "feeding an addiction" and therefore morally suspect. I disagree. No one said that smoke breaks are any more disruptive. The complaints come from the effects after they return. Every habitual smoker I have ever had to spend time with smells awful. I only hang around those smokers that I consider good friends or family. Can you live a relatively long, healthy life while drinking a can of Coke every day? Sure. Can you live a relatively long, healthy life while stepping out for a cigarette every day? Also, sure. In *both cases* you can demonstrate that, in fact, your life will be negatively affected by both habits -- and that whatever you're doing to compensate, exercising, eating right, taking your meds, etc., becomes more strenuous and more expensive in the long haul -- but the effect of the habit in moderation is often much lower than the effect of normal variance in the human lifespan. (If I were *absolutely certain* that I would not get hit by a truck tomorrow and die, in other words, I'd probably take far fewer risks with my health, because I would know with *absolute certainty* how many minutes each overindulgence "takes off of my life". But saying that the subtraction of those minutes is an absolute fact is a fallacy -- the degree of uncertainty of whether you'll die for completely random, unrelated reasons is the reason that, as some people put it, "Life is too short to worry about everything".) One cigarette? One can of Coke? Sure, no problem. If my Friday night friend only smoked one cigarette a day he probably wouldn't reek, either. Am I too hard on smokers? Maybe. My wife started to smoke again "only when she drank." The first time I told her maybe she shouldn't drink then. The next time I told her its the cigs or me. She chose me. I don't "worry about everthing" either. But I try to put a limit on those things that might have me dying a slow painful death in a hospital bed. Makes getting hit by a bus sound pleasant.
Chicharron 10-16-06, 04:06 PM	I don't like secondhand anything. I mean, I love a burrito, but secondhand, it's just...wait are there bathroom breaks or not? Go ahead and smoke dudes...you're cool. Smoking is sublime. (non-smoker here)
vhalkirian666 10-16-06, 06:40 PM	These things may simply ruin the mood and slows the game. In a average game others group uses the bathroom like 3-12 times each. My average is 0.3 =) The guys drink like litres of cola every time and are always snacking. It's usually like this. Combat begins, initiative is rolled and called, somebody has to use the bathroom, two or three rounds go by and someone else uses the bathroom. Battle ends, someone goes to the bathroom, DM starts to cantinue the story but needs to use the bathroom himself. That's about the way our games go..We have been playing together 20+ years...Since High School. It's not a big deal...lol the older you get the more times you have to go to the bathroom..:D
WinterPsionic 10-16-06, 07:00 PM	I read the "D&D and Alcohol Do Not Mix" thread and it got me thinking about what people are allowed to and not allowed to do during D&D sessions. I went to one group and they neglected to tell me there were no bathroom breaks. Only after 3 hours of playing and drinking water to stay hydrated (he did not have AC in his apartment) did I found out I was not allow to go to the bathroom. Needless to say my girlfriend and I left right then and there and never came back. Is "no bathroom breaks" a typical house rule? In the group I'm in you have to make 3 consctuive Bladder Hold saving throws before your allowed to go :) Just Kidding, but apparently one of the players thought it was funny to joke about having to make the save in the living room before he choose to fail in the bathroom....or something like that....
twad 01-26-07, 08:54 PM	These things may simply ruin the mood and slows the game. In a average game others group uses the bathroom like 3-12 times each. My average is 0.3 =) The guys drink like litres of cola every time and are always snacking. It's usually like this. Combat begins, initiative is rolled and called, somebody has to use the bathroom, two or three rounds go by and someone else uses the bathroom. Battle ends, someone goes to the bathroom, DM starts to cantinue the story but needs to use the bathroom himself. It did that once with a group i was playing with, we were drinking WAYY too much juice, that we all had to take bathroom brakes every 10 minutes.
Tiberia 01-26-07, 10:40 PM	When there is a fight happening, we roll initiative. Each must wit ages for their go.I go to the toilet after my go because I have ages before my next go.
Nytmare 01-26-07, 10:51 PM	When there is a fight happening, we roll initiative. Each must wit ages for their go.I go to the toilet after my go because I have ages before my next go. You have to wait to go before you can go, because you're better off going after you've gone rather than going before you go? I'm sure that everyone has seen this (http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=domesticNews&storyID=2007-01-18T035543Z_01_N17558468_RTRUKOC_0_US-USA-RADIO-DEATH.xml&WTmodLoc=USNewsHome_C2_domesticNews-5) by now, but I'll drop the link just in case.
spades1013 01-27-07, 12:01 AM	I am a smoker, albeit a considerate one, I think. I am also a drinker. In the time and place I was brought up, the three-martini lunch was expected not accepted. My grandfather lived to the age of 96, smoked since he was 8 and drank since he was 11. My mother is 76 and has smoked since her teens. I'm 35 and started smoking at 17 (16 was legal age in my state at the time). If I go somewhere smoking is not allowed, I abide by the rules, but I may not return there often. In the defense of smokers and the second-hand smoke(screen), I submit this article for your perusal: Mere exposure does not equate to toxicity; it’s the dose that makes the poison.” —Basic principle of toxicology Smoking and drinking go together like platinum cufflinks. Any smoker will tell you that. Each enhances the other, a total greater than the pieces. A pint is only a pint if it’s living in sin with a cigarette — Old World ardent waters shacking up with New World plant life to engender a litter of Fire and Ice puppies. Bars need smoke, and not for monetary reasons alone. The dim, smoky bar, with its old wood and water-scarred lacquer, is part of our national aesthetic. Think Dashiell Hammett, Mickey Spillane, Humphrey Bogart – guys sprinkling loose leaf from a pouch, rolling their own, their faces set ablaze in a millisecond of match-flare, chasing each drag with neat bourbon. Think Bird, Monk, Dizzy, and Lady Day—horns, keys and silky-sand words be-bopping through the haze. The dark, exhale-clouded, tavern is enigmatic, almost cave-like. Pretty much anything can and does happen, whether you like it or not. Listen carefully. That sound is an echo of the Orphic Mysteries. The Great Bars: enjoy them while you can because over the next few years, if national trends continue, they’ll be deader than a Mott the Hoople reunion tour. Customer numbers will dwindle, starting with the regulars, and the very best bars, the independents, will finally turn belly-up. Cities will be littered with pub husks; empty, silent, brick boxes staring down Destiny’s twelve-gauge, fated for demolition, or worse rebirth as Starbucks. Our homes-away-from-home are under attack by a pair of societal attitudes—the Dyspeptic Duo—and their puritanical minions. Neither attitude is new, or even all that uncommon, but in America, 2003, they loom large amid our cultural mores. Presented in no particular order, they are, 1.) Ignorance/Abuse of Science, and, 2.) Willing Self-Enslavement to Irrational Fear. Recent legislation (i.e. laws against the media-created non-problem known as “road rage”; motorcycle helmet laws; statutes making it illegal for anyone but a veterinarian to touch a dogs genitals; ridiculous protests by animal-rights activists against Animal Crackers; plans to brand people busted for drunk driving with large red “DUI” patches; or the Kansas evolution laws) is smeared with their oily fingerprints. But nowhere are the smelly results of scientific ignorance and irrational fear more stomach-churning than when aimed at second-hand cigarette smoke. Also called “passive smoke” or “environmental tobacco smoke (ETS),” the stuff is widely considered a deadly toxin. It’s used in the same sentence with smallpox, cholera, mustard gas, and anthrax. A bottomless hog-trough of reports links ETS to, among other things, lung cancer, heart disease, childhood asthma, an increased risk of breast cancer, Attention Deficit Disorder, disproportional allergy rates, and—in a truly bizarre recent report—increased tooth decay. Like the Deathalizer Bunny, it keeps killing, and killing, and killing… Surely, we will soon hear that ETS has been linked to hang nails, off-key singing, and general homeliness. On The Simpsons a few seasons back, Homer lit-up in the Springfield DMV. The Mandarin behind the counter slapped him and said he was worse than Hitler. Funny stuff, but not altogether beyond the pale for members of the anti-smoking cartel. Its most popular mantra runs along these lines: “You have a right to smoke, sure, but you don’t have the right to kill me while you’re at it.” Pretty benign, but it gets worse. The “Truth” ad campaign, while occasionally worthy of commendation for ratting on crooked corporate touchholes, often relies on fuzzy-wording and borderline fibbing to paint tobacco companies (and by proxy, smokers) in the blackest light. But the zenith has to be the accusation that parents who smoke near their kids are guilty of child abuse. What a freak show. Not since the Volstead Act has the voice of Moral Authority been so shrill. Right now, someone is saying something like, “Dude, what are you talking about? Everyone knows second-hand smoke kills people? The evidence is, like, huge. Dontcha ever watch TV?” Yes, it’s true. The evidence against ETS looms higher than Illium’s insurmountable walls, is supported, like Wolverine, by an adamantium skeleton. ETS is the most awesome killer inflicted upon innocent citizens since the Ford Pinto or non-organically-grown tomatoes. If sickness is an army, ETS is its Navy SEALS. Only a fool would claim otherwise—a fool, or one of Big Tobacco’s slippery lawyers. Actually, the evidence isn’t as clear cut as some people would have us think. Don’t take my word for it, though: look at some recent studies that you’ve never heard about. Our Great Bars deserve a thorough accounting. Airlines were among the first businesses to announce a ban on public smoking (though some Asian airlines still tolerate the practice to varying degrees), years before the first ETS studies were conducted. Flight employees worried about being confined in tight quarters amid clouds of cigarette smoke. On the face of it, the logic seems sound, but the effects of airplane smoke on non-smokers was never studied in depth until this past year by the US Department of Transportation. The results? Flight attendants would have to spend 48,000 hours of in-cabin duty in order to inhale the smoke of 1 (ONE!) cigarette. The chances of contracting anything more dangerous than a smelly uniform are statistically insignificant. Along the same lines, anti-smoking zealots spout figures showing how the average non-smoker inhales anywhere from 1 to 5 packs of passive smoke each week, depending on exposure. That’s a huge number. However, the internationally respected (and independent) UK research facility, Covance Laboratories, found in 1998 that passive smokers inhale, on average, about 6 cigarettes/year. That’s about 0.02 cigarettes/day, a number so small it is almost meaningless, and a dose of smoke that’s easier to overcome than a common cold. Other studies have pointed to the increased risks of lung cancer among children of smokers and spouses of non-smokers in an attempt to guilt puffers into abandoning their stinky habits. However, in 2001, the International Agency for Research on Cancer in Lyon, France, found: “ETS exposure during childhood is not associated with an increased risk of lung cancer. No clear dose-response relationship could be demonstrated for cumulative spousal ETS exposure. No increase in risk was detected in subjects whose exposure to spousal or workplace ETS ended more than 15 years earlier. Even exposure to ETS from other sources was not associated with lung cancer risk.” The IARC is second only to the American Cancer Society in world-wide respect for their science. And speaking of the American Cancer Society, loudest of the anti-smoking shills, they have recently released a report on their own latest study, this regarding increased levels of breast cancer among women married to smokers. They found: “In contrast to the results of previous studies, this study found no association between exposure to ETS and female breast cancer mortality. The results of our study are particularly compelling because of its prospective design as compared with most earlier studies, the relatively large number of exposed women with breast cancer deaths, and the reporting of exposure by the spouse rather than by proxy.” Then there’s the American Lung Association. Past ALA studies have claimed a link between ETS and asthma. In 1999, however, they revised their position. A joint conference between the ALA and the American Thoracic Society International resulted in the following: “Passive cigarette smoke often has been thought to increase the risk of active asthma, but studies to date have not demonstrated this association convincingly.” These examples, while damning, can’t hold a candle to the charges leveled against The Mother of all Studies, performed by the EPA in 1992. Titled “Respiratory Health Effects of Passive Smoking: Lung Cancer and other Disorders,” this study set the stage for all further ETS studies to come (truly the “Mother” of all studies…). Many later reports are merely restatements of the “facts” in the EPA’s documentation. As recently as May, 2003, the study was trotted out again as the most powerful evidence against ETS. You can find it on the EPA website, and it is, to be sure, a scary read. It’s also so riddled with holes it barely keeps a coherent structure. The problems begin at the outset and worsen from there. Here is a sampling of the highlights. The report was never peer-reviewed by a panel of impartial scientific experts. Peer-review is standard procedure in the sciences. Real scientists demand a review to check their facts and assumptions. The EPA actively hid their findings from the peer panel which was, by law, supposed to review the findings. What were they hiding? The methodology of the study was immediately questioned. Trials hadn’t been double-blind, and the EPA’s so-called “biological plausibility” hypothesis was found to be poorly defined. Federal Judge William L. Osteen, who had access to all of the EPA data, not the “roasted” collection of non-facts in the final report, stated that the EPA had “publicly committed to a conclusion before research [began],” and that they “adopted a methodology for each chapter, without explanation, based on the outcome sought in that chapter.” This free-form “methodology” resulted in the deletion of findings that ETS posed no risk of lung (or any other) cancer. Their own study proved them wrong and they willfully ignored the data. In the end, Judge Osteen had the entire study vacated. He chastised the EPA for misusing its mandate and suggested they had bordered on the edges of the law. His ruling is available, in its entirety, at www.forces.org. It contains a nice overview of the “science” used, or rather misused, by the EPA. So, the “best evidence” showing the perils of passive smoke is a bunch of hooey. The “danger” of second-hand smoke is a phantom. It isn’t true. For every ETS horror story cranked up by the news media, too many others are buried. The reasons are many, starting with the States’ new-found addiction to tobacco-settlement money, but there are others. Primary among these are, as mentioned at the beginning of this happy missive, Subservience to Fear and the Manglement of Science. It’s fashionable today to wear one’s fear on one’s sleeve. America is, in the aggregate, one of the healthiest nations on Earth. Can it be that some people fail to notice? Do Americans require a malady of their own? Can’t people locate an individual identity without defining it in relation to a disease? Or is it that some folks can’t get through life without something to ***** about, and when we wouldn’t give up our icky ol’ smoking on their say-so, they made up a bunch of lies to get their way? When did the Land of the Free become the Land of the Hysterical Tantrum? The Great Bars are dying because of fear and bad science, but the solutions seem pretty obvious. Learn to control the first and use the second honestly. Cheers. —Richard H. English (Note: The author is indebted to the Environmental Protection Agency and to www.forces.org)