Post/Author/DateTime	Post
skywyze 09-20-07, 09:08 PM	Maybe I've just been really unlucky, but it seems like no matter how hard the DM tries, due to the quality of players locally, any D&D game I play in inexorably turns into a game of D&D Minis, as opposed to the D&D roleplaying game. All combat, no story and unbelievable, shallow characters all around. We show up for gaming, get out the battle map, pretend to roleplay for about 5 minutes, then face a series of random encounters. Then we leave. Now don't get me wrong, D&D Minis is a fine game if that's your cup of tea. I just think that a lot of people are actually playing a board game, rather than a roleplaying game, without acknowledging it. Has anyone else had the same experience? If so, why do you think that is? How can such a situation be resolved?
Gryllmyre 09-20-07, 09:27 PM	I suppose it could easily degenerate into a minis game if the adventure focuses heavily on combat to advance the story, but it certainly doesn't have to be that way. The combat system is part of DnD, of course, but I agree that DnD should have its share of non-combat elements, such as roleplaying, puzzle solving, or other challenges like navigating dangerous terrain and using your wits to get past obstacles. That said, combat sometimes does take a lot of time and since a lot of rules in combat are based around the minis, a lot of the mentality of what happens in the game falls on that game grid.
Reinforcements 09-20-07, 09:47 PM	Aw, and here I thought the question was, "Do you ever actually get to play D&D?" because for me, the answer is 'no'.
Salla 09-20-07, 09:52 PM	The only wrong way to play any roleplaying game is to not have fun while doing it. If the game is deep immersion RP with no fights at all, and everybody enjoys that, it is the right way to play. If the game is a non-stop action fest with no RP, and everybody enjoys that, it is also the right way to play. If, and only if, you are not having fun, are you playing the game wrong.
Ariana Iriliel 09-20-07, 09:55 PM	You ask a question that I always wonder about when I see people playing "D&D". A lot has changed from when I played AD&D back in the early 80's. Then it was mostly role-playing and there was no combat grid or minis. And I think it was a better game. I know a lot of people who have left off D&D because it has changed so much and seems to be more about combat than anything else. But I also believe D&D can be what you make of it. If you get a DM who likes to be creative and run adventures that are less about combat and grid play and more about traps, treasure, working your way around a dungeon, etc., you can be a very happy camper. If you can't find a DM like that, become one yourself. I bet it wouldn't take long to find gamers that would love to join a more stimulating role-playing campaign than a pure slash and hack one.
Crwth 09-20-07, 09:56 PM	Maybe I've just been really unlucky, but it seems like no matter how hard the DM tries Then I don't think he's trying hard enough. The DM steers the flow of the game, and it's his or her "fault" if the game is nothing but combat. It's the DM that defines the world that the players are in, so if they're finding nothing but combat, it's because the DM is allowing it, or wanting it. As you mention, there are so many other things to D&D, roleplaying being a big part of it, but non-combat activities can and should be a good portion of your game session. For me, I try to make combat either incidental (a few guards wandering along, so the party needs to quickly dispatch them), or significant, where it's the "main" battle of the evening. The rest of the session is dialog, searching, travel, diplomacy, resting, tracking, shopping, dying. Oops -- don't read that last one, my victim--err, players. And not to nitpick, but Minis is quite a bit different than miniature-based D&D combat, but I do get your point. -- Crwth
Madoffler 09-20-07, 10:15 PM	It would seem you're unlucky. Have you brought this up with the DM? Maybe you could start running your own game. Feel the table out, if everyone's there to play a Rollplaying game then its not really they're fault if your expectations arnt met. I really would suggest starting up your own game.
Crisilac 09-21-07, 12:35 AM	honestly, i've never had a problem like that. We do have a session every once in a while that has a lot of combat, but those are largely due to something that happens in an earlier session that has a lot to do with RP. We usually spend more than 1/2 the session out of combat.
rosander 09-21-07, 03:39 AM	You're going to skin me alive, but I actually miss the days when we spent the whole adventure crawling through dungeons, getting hit by traps, killing stuff, and grabbing loot. The group I'm in now is fairly RP-heavy, and we have a lot of inter-character drama... but really, I just want to go kill monsters, grab some treasure, and level up. I prefer role-playing as window-dressing, really. Espescially since our group seems incapable of doing it without causing party conflict.
Johnny_Angel 09-21-07, 04:03 AM	I guess I should count my blessings when I think of the current DMs I have (I play in two games.) They're both pretty good at balancing story with action. Heck, there are times when I honestly consider picking the +2 feats and skill focuses over combat feats because I'm not sure what to expect. Depending on what's going on in the campaign, there are times when a few sessions in a row are combat heavy, but there have also been a few rp heavy sessions in a row at times. I remember one session in which we spent the whole session having our house/base of operations built; I don't think we had to roll dice at all that night other than to see if we could haggle somebody down on prices for building materials.
CCS 09-21-07, 04:27 AM	Yes. Yes I am. Every Sunday (as a player) and Wed. evening (as the DM) infact. The Sunday game has 5-8 players & the DM, comprising a wide range of experience & styles. Some of us have been gaming for decades, some a few years, and a few are brand new to this. So we've got a few who're mostly there to RP, a few still in the kill/loot phase, and a few sorta stradling the line. It's interesting watching how the older members influance the newer players. In general, most sessions are fairly enjoyable for all. And I'll attribute this to the 3 most vetern players. While they COULD sit there & simply RP all night, they've been doing this long enough to know when ACTION is needed to keep the others actively involved. They also know how to maintain their own RP during that action. The Wed. game is a bit different. There's only 4 players & the DM (me). 2 have exactly 1 years worth of exposure to any kind of real RPG and are working hard to overcome their WoW mentality. Ones a middle of the road RP/action type. And the 4th has nearly 20 years worth of experience but leans heavily towards the powergamer style. So the Wed. game - though fun - tends to be alot more focussed upon the leveling, etc. I find myself having to write far different adventures than what I've grown accustomed to....
Naderion 09-21-07, 05:03 AM	We just finished a 15-hour 1st-level adventure with only two fights in all. Completely without minis or a grid.
DrStalker 09-21-07, 06:27 AM	Rules can help roleplaying, but mostly they just get ti teh way. D&D is a very rules heavy system; I know there are worse, but it's pretty awful if what you want to do is tell a collaborative story with a light framework for handling events where the outcome is uncertain. I worry that 4th ed will be a step towards even more involved tactical combat; (how else do they expect to sell piles of minis and have every player pay $10 a month to get access to online combat tools?) It's also worth mentioning that a good roleplaying game requires a lo more effort from the GM than a combat-heavy game. When you don't focus on combat you get a *lot* of story and RP in a session.
Walsingham 09-21-07, 07:30 AM	My group is a good mix of both styles. While we get into some fairly good RP when the dice hit the table and blades get bared, they WANT the Painted Figures for them and the bad guys. The terrain they can use for cover and battlefield advantages and all that! Somtimes, we have nights where we get into deep hours long RP fests tracking down adventure clues and ideas and then, we get into hours long tactical combat. It is a combo of rules and free form fights. C'mon, you ALL know you've wanted to put that orc in a headlock and give him noogies :plotting: :smirk: It all depends on your style, if all the rules crunching of Mini Combat is not your gig, let your DM know and try to keep it more cerebral. Good luck and have fun!
Hochiu 09-21-07, 07:57 AM	Maybe I've just been really unlucky, but it seems like no matter how hard the DM tries, due to the quality of players locally, any D&D game I play in inexorably turns into a game of D&D Minis, as opposed to the D&D roleplaying game. All combat, no story and unbelievable, shallow characters all around. We show up for gaming, get out the battle map, pretend to roleplay for about 5 minutes, then face a series of random encounters. Then we leave. Same for me. Its gotten to the point where some of the players in the group are vehement about including minis in battle situations on a grid. Its like they're incapable of actually thinking of how it is otherwise, by imagining it or what. I think its because the guy who owns the Minis has several thousand of them, and wants to feel useful. He claims they help, but meh, its a trend they got into when I was away at Uni, that I never picked up on. At Uni, if we needed placement, my dice bag has some spare glass counters and loads of extra d6s. It was fine. A combat grid isn't hard to figure out, at all, even on the floor of a dormroom. Its also gotten to the point where one of the guys in the group can't figure out appropriate challenges, so he swamps us with combat after insane combat. They claim to be compensating for a buddy of mine, who is a freakin' maniac when it comes to critical hits, but still. If you saw the sheer amount of Drow we fought one night....heh. They're just used to leveling up once every other game or so, with massive encounters, and its just not fun waiting for 40 someodd people to roll through their action. They're getting better about roleplaying outside of combat, but mini-esque combat (Even using the stat cards before the MM) has definately taken hold.
Meshakhad 09-21-07, 08:40 AM	I've never had an issue of too much combat. In fact, I occasionally have the problem of not enough combat. Most of my DMs include lots of roleplaying opportunities. In my current game, we don't even have a grid (combat is usually short, and the DM tries to keep our characters' locations in his head). If you normally have a lot of random encounters, that says to me that the DM has not planned much of a campaign. Suggest that he remedy the situation with a planned campaign.
Ornum 09-21-07, 08:54 AM	Considering that D&D was originally a game that relied on minis, then I'd say yes. As it stands, I don't have that problem. When I DM or play, we have only 5-6 actual combat encounters a session. The rest is story.
Sudnji_cas 09-21-07, 09:35 AM	Aw, and here I thought the question was, "Do you ever actually get to play D&D?" because for me, the answer is 'no'. Yeah, me too. I just like the system.
ADHadh 09-21-07, 10:50 AM	I've put my D&D games on hiatus due to overwhelming with other activities. But when it comes to actual playing usually battling takes only half of the time, unless the dungeon is huge. Then it's story on one session and fighting on the following one.
shoesan 09-21-07, 10:56 AM	I really think you should DM. Before you volunteer for the job though, get working on what you want done. Don't have an idea or two and just try to get the game going, because you will end up having to do exactly what you don't want to do... rely on a lot of combat to keep the game moving. Come up with some creative "secrets" for the PCs character's backgrounds that they have to discover through time. Get 3 or 4 adventure hooks ready so you can put them out there close together... make them have to think about which step they want to take next. Get some kind of mystery going. A good mystery should make the PCs want to role play at least a little bit, because they can't get answers from dead monsters (unless they are pretty high level). And make sure the mystery is of a magnitude big enough to last through several sessions. And have something else ready to entice them before the first one ends. And don't forget the recurring villains! Basically, everything that you want in a game, design into your own, and then play it. Some will not want to play this way. I call them the WoW gamers, although they existed long before World of Warcraft did. Just expect that not everyone wants a lot of story. But some might surprise you.. .and they might surprise themselves. If you DM a good game, and everyone else is enjoying it, then your chances for having one of them start DMing a "better" game (to you) that you can play in will increase greatly. You are NOT the only one with this issue! Shoe
Azaul 09-21-07, 11:02 AM	My group plays a bit kick in the door in that they get antsy if they don't get at least two combats in a session and they design characters more with combat than interaction in mind, but we definitely roleplay. Recently I DMed a session where the players traveled through a necropolis full of thousands of dead. They were nervous the entire time, waiting for undead ambush. But they got through safely. Afterwards they told me their favourite part of the session was meeting the half-human son of Kord guarding the Necropolis, a purely role-played encounter. Sure, by the time the party reaches the dungeon there's a lot less roleplaying and a lot more hack and slash. But a nice balance pleases everybody.
Bhaelfur 09-21-07, 12:25 PM	Yes. What? Someone had to do it...