Post/Author/DateTime	Post
1337Ninja 07-26-06, 06:53 AM	As the name suggests, this is a little competition to see if you can beat the Tarrasque's grapple check, and by how much. Rules ECL is 20. You have 200,000gp. You can have any buffs you can cast or pay active. However, an item that casts a spell/manifests a power costs double, and you have half the normal number of spells for each level/half the normal number of power points. Your character cannot be bigger than Medium, nor may he/she use any size-altering effects. And remember, try to beat +81 by as much as possible!
Leilond 07-26-06, 08:14 AM	How the char must be? 25 - 28 - 30 - 32 point buy? Level? ECL? Race? Be more detailed
Tikael 07-26-06, 09:04 AM	Well i dont have time to go through magic items but a stonechild were-bear in hybrid form with improved grapple and clever wrestling and 4 levels of reaping mauler (CW) would have a +50 grapple against a collosal creature. thats not bad without any magic modifiers. i am going off a 25 point buy system. stonechildren get +8 Str were-bears recieve +12 Str in hybrid form. stonechild is +2 level adjustment lycanthrope is +2.
Shaggy_Shaggs 07-26-06, 09:12 AM	Str +12? What kind of bear base animal are you thinking of? Black bear gets +8, Brown and Polar bears get +16 (and don't work as reaping maulers in hybrid form, they become size Large and no longer qualify for Clever Wrestling necessary to be a Reaping Mauler).
Morka 07-26-06, 10:50 AM	Your character cannot be bigger than Medium, nor may he/she use any size-altering effects. That seems unfair. Does it mean we can't use a polymorph spell to become a giant? Anyway, here's what I have so far: +53. It's for a wizard level 17, casting a Summon Monster IX spell to summon a Colossal Monstrous Spider, then casting Iron Body on the creature. A Colossal Monstrous Spider has a base grapple of +50, and Iron Body gives a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength.
Thiez 07-26-06, 11:09 AM	Like, cast fly, then waste all of your remaining spell slots on dominate monster, then tell it not to resist, then grapple it?
ZeronHitaro 07-26-06, 01:02 PM	Edit: Nevermind, I just figured out how and I'm fixing to post it.
ZeronHitaro 07-26-06, 01:56 PM	*scrapped for unstackable bonuses*
Raven Dark 07-26-06, 02:07 PM	I win. Just cast Freedom of Movement. Only gargantuan creatures can grapple the tarrasque anyways, so I only ever have to worry about him grappling me. Thus I cast Freedom of Movement and always beat his grapple checks. DUH. Took like 10 seconds of thought. :rolleyes:
ZeronHitaro 07-26-06, 02:12 PM	I win. Just cast Freedom of Movement. Only gargantuan creatures can grapple the tarrasque anyways, so I only ever have to worry about him grappling me. Thus I cast Freedom of Movement and always beat his grapple checks. DUH. Took like 10 seconds of thought. :rolleyes: The challenge was to equal the Big T in grapple check, not to avoid his grapple. :P And no where in the RAW (last time I checked) does it say only creatures of like size can grapple each other.
ZeronHitaro 07-26-06, 02:13 PM	*double post* :embarrass
Salty_Boy 07-26-06, 02:24 PM	"Step 3 Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action. If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike. If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are." So if your only goal is to grab and not to hold then by all means, hunt down that Tarrasque. Just don't be surprised if it turns around and sues you for harassment.
ZeronHitaro 07-26-06, 04:11 PM	"Step 3 Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action. If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike. If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are." So if your only goal is to grab and not to hold then by all means, hunt down that Tarrasque. Just don't be surprised if it turns around and sues you for harassment. Ah, so one of my original thoughts was correct about it being impossible without the size modifier (although at the time I thought it impossible for another reason :embarrass ).
Pyth HandSlieght 07-26-06, 05:56 PM	I thought 29 was your intelligence. and not the actuall modifier. so wouldnt it bea 9 bonuse and not a 29? confused pyth
ZeronHitaro 07-26-06, 06:04 PM	I thought 29 was your intelligence. and not the actuall modifier. so wouldnt it bea 9 bonuse and not a 29? confused pyth Read more carefully, my Int score is 65, giving it a +27 modifier. (Had to adjust for miscalculation of aging stats.)
red_wizard69 07-26-06, 08:08 PM	hmm. I'm going to go out on a limb here. Using my gestalt monk/sorcerer, Respen of the sun soul monks, at level 20. Relevant feats I've taken include: clever wrestling, improved grapple, earth's embrace (complete warrior), close quarter fighting(complete warrior), and extra spell: giant size (both the feat and the spell are from complete arcane). The monster manual states that the tarrasque's grapple modifier is +81. Actually, the MM is wrong, they gave the Tarrasque a base attack of 48 when his base attack bonus should be 34, and his relevant grapple modifer should be +67. Unless I am mistaken and there is something about epic advancement that I misunderstand, but I am quite certain this is just a copy over of the 3.0 Tarrasque, without taking into consideration the epic advancement rules, and therefore, as written, the Tarrasque is incorrect. Breakdown of the Tarrasque's grapple as written. +48 from base attack (incorrect I believe) +16 from colossal size modifier +17 from strength modifier ----- +81, the total listed in the book. Respen's totals below take into account the following spells which are active upon him. Giant size (complete arcane), Tenser's transformation (PHB), persistent Wraith's touch(complete adventurer). I am using Respen's str score of 12 (he is an elf, what do you expect, so a PC with higher str would have a higher total!) There is another spell that I think would be excellent for this I saw in a friends book, the spell compendium, bite of the werebear if I recall, gives a large enhancement bonus to str. But I don't have that book, so I'll skip that. With spells active, strength is 48, so bonus of +19 Respen's grapple totals +20 from base attack +16 colossal size modifier +19 strength + 4 improved grapple feat ----- +59 Still quite shy of the Tarrasque's total, but don't forget about the close quarter fighting feat from complete warrior. It gives me a free attack of opp on the Tarrasaque for grappling me, regardless of his size, or any feats he may have to prevent such an attack of opportunity. If the attack hits, I deal damage and add that amount of damage as a modifier to my grapple check. My attack of opp has a +31 to hit, if I am doing the math correctly. So, I would normally hit the Tarrasque on a roll of 4 or higher but...I have wraith strike on, which means this hit is a touch attack. So, I only need to hit a touch AC of 5 with a modifier of +31. Only way I can miss is if the DM is using the rule of all 1's always miss and I happen to roll a 1. So, assuming I hit, which has a 95% chance of being true, I hit the Tarrasque, doing 2d10+19 points of damage. No wait, I'm colossal now, so my unarmed strike damage increases. Large, huge, garg, col, so 4 size increases means 2d10 to 4d8 for large, 6d8 for huge, 9d8 for gar, and 12d8 for Colossal. (Actually, it should be 12d8 +2d6 according to the table in the MM, but that overcomplicates.) Oh this just updated, I found the table in the DMG for the size increases, and surprisingly, I did it correctly, even without the table. It is 12d8 damage. So, Respen hits Tarrasque for 12d8 +19 points of damage, average damage of 73. But remember, the Tarrasque has epic damage reduction 15. So respen really only does 58 points of damage. Remember, thats a +58 to my modifier. So, again, Repen's total grapple modifier is... +59 (above total) +58 (close quarter fighting bonus) ------- +117. Tarrasque is badly beaten in a grapple by Respen, sunsoul monk, and the church of Lathander rejoices!
red_wizard69 07-26-06, 08:16 PM	and I don't mean to burst anybody's bubble, but one of the above posts spoke of a Psion named George. I don't know much about Psionic powers, so I will not say alot, but I do know my stacking rules, and fox's cunning, animal affinity, and your +6 enhancement to intelligence item do not stack. Also, I'm not sure how you augmented your animal affinity to give you such a large increase to intelligence. As far as I know, the max your int could be at level 20, is 18 +5 for natural stat increases, +5 inherent bonus from the book, +6 from an item which brings it too 34 intelligence, and with age increases, up to 37 intelligence. This 60 something intelligence for a level 20 character sounds ludicros! If your character is epic and has cast an epic power with a spellcraft DC of 90 something to gain this bonus to intelligence, then excuse me, I'm mistaken, and your int should be that high. But if not, I'm quite certain short of high dc epic spell and powers, nothing in the game can let you burst the 34 mark for a mental stat, besides aging and racial mods, which are minor to say the least.
Kresalak 07-26-06, 08:44 PM	Zeron, Enhancement bonuses don't stack, and Animal Affinity doesn't augment that way. Your Int is (18 base+5 level+5 inherant+6 enhancement+3 age) 37.
red_wizard69 07-26-06, 09:18 PM	and I'm an idiot, because I violated the 1st rule of the post. Don't use any size increasing abilities. Hmm, I don't know if its legitimately possible for a medium sized character. Lets see if I can do it following the rules. Oskar of clan stonescar, dwarf 6 barbarian/10 frenzied beserker/4 reaping mauler +6 str item (36,000). Amulet of mightly fists +3 (54,000) manual of gainful exercise +5 (110,000gp) relevant feats: improved unarmed strike, hammerfist (races of faerun), improved grapple, clever wrestling, close quarter fighting. so, when in a rage and a frenzy, str score is 18+6 item+5 level increase + 5 inherent = 34 +4 rage + 10 for frenzy. Total strength score of 48. grapple total ------------- base attack +20 strength bonus +19 improved grapple +4 adapt wrestling +2 (class feature of the reaping mauler) clever wrestling +8 also remember the attack of opportunity for the Tarrasque attempting a grapple. With an unarmed attack of opportunity before the grapple, Oskar has a +42 to hit, and hits the big T on any roll but a natural 1. Dealing d3 + 31 points of damage, or an average of 33 points, minus 15 from the epic damage reduction, so this gives Oskar a +18 bonus to his grapple, making his total.. +20+19+4+2+8+18 = +71. Damn, still no where close to beating the Tarrasque. I still need 11 more points, and I have no idea where to get these 11 points from without increasing size. Good challenge though!
Vanigo 07-26-06, 10:04 PM	This should really be on the CharOpt board. This is exactly the kind of thing that goes on there.
ZeronHitaro 07-26-06, 10:44 PM	Bleh, I kinda guessed when the stats started surpassing 60 that I'd misread something. >.<
Lord_Bahamut 07-27-06, 02:29 AM	wow red_wizard69, that actually made sense. When you started going into the 20+19+123987340598237450 I started to think, "Dude, this guy is crazy", but you worked it out nicely. I have complete warrior, so it all makes sense! That is a crazy monk char you have! :bow: woship the dude who can grapple the Big T, which trembles in trepidation and fear at the dude's +117 grapple check! Big T: *Roar!* Monk: *grabs Big T by the scruff of the neck and slams him into the ground repeatedly* Big T: *Roar!* *Regenerate* Monk: *grabs Big T's tail and whirls him around, sending him flying out into orbit* Big T: *ROOOOAAaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr*dies * *regenerate* *dies* *regenerate* *dies* *regenerate*
1337Ninja 07-27-06, 05:13 AM	Leilond: Oops! 32 point-buy, because this is a pretty tough challenge. Morka: The idea is to beat +81 as a Medium creature. Anyone can easily do it if they pay a wu jen to turn them Colossal, but being able to beat the Big T's grapple modifier while Medium? That's a challenge. Theiz and RavenDark: True, you can avoid being grappled/beat the Big T with those methods. However, the goal was to beat the Tarrasque's grapple modifier. Red_Wizard: Close, very close. There are probably some ways to grab +11, maybe some spell or power you could pay someone to cast. You don't have to permanantely beat +81, just for at least 1 round.
Shaggy_Shaggs 07-27-06, 05:40 AM	Just out of curiosity, is there a point to this? Even if someone works out how to outdo the number, a medium creature initiating a grapple against a colossal creature automatically fails. It's a futile thing to do, so... why do it? :confused:
1337Ninja 07-27-06, 06:47 AM	It's just for fun. Why does there have to be a reason to do this? The rule that disallows being larger than Medium is just because being Colossal makes it wayyyyy too easy to beat +81.
Morka 07-27-06, 09:12 AM	It's just for fun. Why does there have to be a reason to do this? The rule that disallows being larger than Medium is just because being Colossal makes it wayyyyy too easy to beat +81. This is exaclty why it doesn't belong to the Character Optimization Thread! Dealing d3 + 31 points of damage, or an average of 33 points, minus 15 from the epic damage reduction, so this gives Oskar a +18 bonus to his grapple, making his total.. Heh, the goal is to beat the Big T Grapple Bonus, not to beat the Big T on a grapple! So you do not have to count the epic damage reduction. Your total is now 86. However, you loose the +8 from Clever Wrestling, leading you to +78... But to use Close-Quarter Fighting, do you need to hit with an unarmed attack? If not, go ahead with your +3 flamming greatsword!
Wargamer 07-27-06, 09:32 AM	Beating Mr T in a grapple check? Easy as pie! Wait until the Terrasque gets close, I mean REALLY close... then reach down and pick the mini up off the table, proclaiming "HAND OF GOD!"
Thraat 07-27-06, 10:04 AM	Let's see... Human Ranger 6/Cancer Mage 1 Stats: Str 10 Dex 10 Con 11 Int 14 Wis 18 Cha 12 BAB: +6 Grapple thus far +6 Disease of Choice: Festering Anger Why?: +2 cumlative bonus to Str/day Waiting a year, 365 days, this means +730 to Str, that's a +365 strength modifier 7th level character beats the Big-T's grapple check.
SeptimusMagistos 07-27-06, 10:56 AM	Darn this rule! Otherwise I could enter my Size-Changer Class. Having 20 levels in it would give you +52 to grapple checks.
savant_warlord13 07-27-06, 11:21 AM	Note: I am ignoring the medium size rule because otherwise you cannot successfully initiate a grapple with a Colossal creature Half-Orc- +2 racial bonus to strength Level 20 Barbarian. Point buy to give 18, +2 racial for 20 strength at 1st level. Upgrade strength at every oppurtunity with ability score upgrade Improved Grapple gives a +4 bonus on grapple checks Aberration Blood (Flexible Limbs) gives a +2 bonus on grapple checks. Deepspawn gives a +2 racial bonus on grapple checks and gives gives two tentacle attacks The spell Giant Size, when cast with a caster level of 19 or more, increases your size to Colossal. This gives you a +32 bonus to strength and a +16 size bonus on grapple checks. Greater Magic Fang gives +5 enhancement bonus to unarmed attacks Mighty Rage gives +8 to strength Belt of Giant's Strength +6 (36,000 gp) Manual of Gainful Exercise +5 (137,500 gp) Base Strength 30, +6 for belt, +8 for rage, +32 for spell is 76 strength. Grapple Bonus: +20 BAB, +33 strength, +16 size, +8 from feats, +5 enhancement Total grapple bonus: +82
savant_warlord13 07-27-06, 11:25 AM	Let's see... Human Ranger 6/Cancer Mage 1 Stats: Str 10 Dex 10 Con 11 Int 14 Wis 18 Cha 12 BAB: +6 Grapple thus far +6 Disease of Choice: Festering Anger Why?: +2 cumlative bonus to Str/day Waiting a year, 365 days, this means +730 to Str, that's a +365 strength modifier 7th level character beats the Big-T's grapple check. Where does festering anger come from? This feels like cheating to me.
Thraat 07-27-06, 12:00 PM	Where does festering anger come from? This feels like cheating to me. Festering Anger comes from BoVD, as does Cancer Mage. It was the best choice for the challenge, since we can't change size.
WolfHati 07-27-06, 01:54 PM	I'm pretty sure any DM with half a brain would rule you immune to the strength effect. But savant_warlord's character can easily do it with just a little bit of change in his equipment. First off, lower the anual of gainful exercise to +3, that has to be done anyway, since the 110,000 gp price is for a +4 manual and not a +5 manual, that reduces damage by 1 and grapple check by one, so the total grapple's down to 69, but frees up 110,000 -82,500 = 27,500 gp. Okay, now you buy a potion of moment of prescience for 12,000 gp (50x8x15x2). That gives +15 to one check, giving you a grapple check of +84 for one attack. Now, normally potions above 3rd level arenot available, however I believe there's an alchemist prestige class in one of the Faerun books that can brew potions of up to ninth level. So if someone can confirm this, then this plan might actually work. EDIT: Fixed some errors in calculation.
red_wizard69 07-27-06, 03:07 PM	I think I just figured how Oskar, the dwarf, who is medium sized can beat the Tarraque in a grapple. The Big T has an AC of 35, and Oskar's modifier to attack is +42. That means that even if Oskar power attacks with a -8 modifier, he still has +34 to hit, and will hit Tarrasque on anything but a 1. This -8 to hit grants Oskar a +16 to damage with is unarmed hammerfist strike, meaning that the Tarrasque will take an average of 49 points of damage, not the 33 I stated earlier. This results in an overall grapple check +16 points higher then before, for a total grapple check modifier of +87. Just to re-do the math for everybody, thats base attack +20 strength bonus +19 improved grapple +4 adapt wrestling +2 (class feature of the reaping mauler) clever wrestling +8 close quarter fighting bonus +34 (49 damage minus the 15 epic reduction) ------------------------ total grapple bonus = +87 And Oskar, the medium size dwarf has done it!
WolfHati 07-27-06, 08:09 PM	As I said before he can only afford a +3 or +4 manual, which reduces the end grapple result by 4 in this case. (-1 str to hit = -2 pa damage -1 damage from less str and -1 to grapple check). Still beats Mr. T, though!
Thraat 07-28-06, 12:40 AM	I'm pretty sure any DM with half a brain would rule you immune to the strength effect. But savant_warlord's character can easily do it with just a little bit of change in his equipment. First off, lower the anual of gainful exercise to +3, that has to be done anyway, since the 110,000 gp price is for a +4 manual and not a +5 manual, that reduces damage by 1 and grapple check by one, so the total grapple's down to 69, but frees up 110,000 -82,500 = 27,500 gp. Okay, now you buy a potion of moment of prescience for 12,000 gp (50x8x15x2). That gives +15 to one check, giving you a grapple check of +84 for one attack. Now, normally potions above 3rd level arenot available, however I believe there's an alchemist prestige class in one of the Faerun books that can brew potions of up to ninth level. So if someone can confirm this, then this plan might actually work. EDIT: Fixed some errors in calculation. Well, it does work for this challenge, and according to how the ability is written, my build is immune only to the harmful effects of the disease and not the beneficial part. Not to mention that there was no limit on the time it takes to get prepared.
FeceMan 07-28-06, 12:55 AM	Freedom of movement. Do I win a prize? (Wait? You wanted what?) EDIT: Okay, srsly. (Note, however, that I am making a character who would be semi-playable rather than pumping my STR score and ignoring everything else. Of course, with the gimped amount of money available, I'm ignoring armor.) Half-Giant Psychic Warrior 16/Slayer 3 (ECL 20) STR: 30 (15 base, +2 race, +3 level ups, +4 tome, +6 belt) DEX: 13 (14 base, -2, +1 level up) CON: 16 (14 base, +2) INT: 10 WIS: 15 CHA: 10 Feats: Clever Wrestling, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Overchannel, Close-Quarters Fighting, Overchannel, Talented, Practiced Manifester, Track. Weapon: +1 brilliant energy greataxe. The process leading up to the grapple: 1. Overchannel offensive prescience for manifester level 23. Spend 22 PP for +9 insight bonus on damage rolls. 2. Overchannel again. Spend 23 PP on dissolving weapon to increase weapon's damage by 14d6 points. 3. Manifest weapon of energy for +1d6 electricity damage (more on a crit). 4. Manifest form of doom (+4 STR). 5. Oops, almost forgot--manifest offensive precognition, but do it earlier. Overchannel, blah-blah-blah, for +9 insight bonus on attack rolls. 6. HAHAHAHAHA. I was flipping through CPsionic and found this little gem: adrenaline boost. Spend 19 PP for a +8 insight bonus to STR for one round. Now it's time to face "Big T". YAAAAAAAAAARGH! Run over to him but don't attack/provoke AoOs. Let Big T come to you. "Raaaaaagh!" Big T bellows as he tries to grab onto you. Overchannel grip of iron for manifester level 23 (immediate action). Spend 21 PP on it to give oneself a +14 enhancement bonus to grapple checks. Shazam! As of now, your base grapple is... 16 (BAB) + 9 (insight) + 16 (STR) + 4 (race) + 4 (Improved Grapple) + 8 (colossal) + 14 (iron grip) = +71 But wait, that's not all! You get to do that damage-dealy thing! So... 1d12+10 (insight, enhancement, no STR) + 14d6 (acid) + 1d6 (electricity) = an average of 6.5 + 10 + 49 (acid) + 3.5 (electricity) = 69 - 15 = +54 to grapple. Max grapple modifier: +127 Big T just got pwned. Also: for anyone arguing that offensive precognition doesn't work for grapples, it says that grapple checks are attack rolls (and thus are allowable). Double edit: How the deuce did that dwarf get a +19 STR mod? Triple edit: It's tempting to take the flexible limbs feat and a level dip in barbarian for extra power, but that would be cheating, in my opinion, since savant_warlord is the one who came up with them.
1337Ninja 07-28-06, 04:21 AM	savant_warlord13, the reason this is a challenge is that you have to beat +81 without being larger than Medium. Just beat the grapple modifier. You don't have to actually be able to grapple the Tarrasque and win. As explained before, being able to get a 19th-level wu jen to use giant size on you removes all the challenge from this.
WolfHati 07-28-06, 02:03 PM	Well, it does work for this challenge, and according to how the ability is written, my build is immune only to the harmful effects of the disease and not the beneficial part. Not to mention that there was no limit on the time it takes to get prepared. Heres the relevant quotes: "a cancer mage suffers no ill effects of diseases, except for purely cosmetic ones" "The cancer mage becomes a carrier of every disease he encounters, though he becomes immune to most of their effects." Now, any interpretation is logically valid as long as diseases do not cause actual harm the the cancer mage, and they may have at least some effect on him. Obviously, letting the mage retain positive effects of disease would be gamebreaking as you so aptly demonstrated, so the only reasonable interpretation is that positive effects of diseases are covered under the "most effects" that the cancer mage is immune to. This an intellignet ruling and well within the rules, and what any smart DM would do.
FeceMan 07-28-06, 02:07 PM	Race: Half-Orc Levels: Half-Orc Paragon 3/Human Paragon 3/Bear Totem Barbarian 2/Frenzied Berserker 8/Fighter 2/Eye of Gruumsh 2 Stats: Screw it, it doesn't matter; pump STR to 18 and do whatever with the rest. Feats: Improved Grapple (free from bear totem), Clever Wrestling, Power Attack, Cleave, Destructive Rage, Reckless Rage, Close-Quarters Fighting, Weapon Focus: Grapple, Monkey Grip, EWP: Orc Double-Axe, Weapon Focus: Orc Double-Axe. STR: 18 (base) + 2 (race) + 8 (rage) + 10 (frenzy) + 4 (tome) + 4 (levels) + 6 (belt of giant's strength) + 4 (racial paragon stat boosts) = 56 Grapple powers, away! 20 (BAB) + 23 (STR) + 4 (Improved Grapple) + 8 (Clever Wrestling) + 1 (Weapon Focus) = +56 Weapon of choice: +2 shock frost large greatsword of magical beast bane Damage (power attack for +20 damage): 3d6+27+1d6+1d6+2d6+20 equals, on average, 16.5 + 27 + 3.5 + 3.5 + 7 + 40 damage. So 97-15 = +82 And don't forget gloves of titan's grip--+8 enhancement to grapple checks. So 56+82+8 = +146
red_wizard69 07-28-06, 02:10 PM	I made my character assuming that you couldn't attack with a two handed weapon for the close quarter fighting, and then immediately start a grapple. To me, that doesn't make sense. Which is why I made my PC unarmed. Assuming you can use a two handed weapon for the use of close quarter fighting, our builds are near identical.