Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mulsiphix 11-25-07, 01:57 PM	My wife and I are brand new to Dungeons & Dragons. When we eventually host games we both will DM a group together. At this point we are just trying to figure out what the best way would be to tackle learning D&D. We do own several things already which are listed at the end of this post. We would greatly appreciate any advice, suggestions, recommendations for learning tools/products, links to guides or other online resources, etc... on how to go from knowing nothing about how D&D works, real life roleplaying, or how D&D is played -- all the way to knowledgeable DM's ready and capable of hosting a, successful and enjoyable, one/two year campaign for local players. Previous PnP Experience We've played plenty of BattleTech (BT, CityTech, Battle Force, Battle Space, and AeroTech) so we are very familliar with complex pen & paper rules. We know D&D is far more vast and complex than BattleTech but at least we have some Pen & Paper experience under out belts. Why We Need To Learn Without "Hands On" Experience/Aid I've been a long time video game RPG fantatic but due to an injury I sustained I can no longer play them. D&D has always been something I wished I could play but I never knew anybody who played. After doing a little research and finding this website I now know that I can get a group together if I become a DM. Due to the fact that I have two young children it really isn't possible for my wife and I to travel to participate in other peoples games. Being able to play online for an extended amount of time is hard on my hands, not to mention probably full of "hold on guys" as the children require attention every twenty minutes or so. So the learning process needs to be primarily restricted to the two of us without aid from experienced players, minus the advice received in these forums. Owned Core Material Player's Handbook (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndcore/175240000) Dungeon Masters Guide (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndcore/177520000) Monster Manual (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndcore/177550000) Owned Game Supplements Ptolus (http://www.ptolus.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?ptolus) (Ridiculously Large Book) The Ptolus setting can be used on its own or inserted into an existing campaign. Actually, it's both a setting and a mega-adventure that will take you from 1st to 20th level. 640-page deluxe full-color hardcover with bound-in fabric bookmarks and glued-in envelope containing double-sided poster map, 24 handouts, and CD-ROM. Rappan Athuk Reloaded (http://secure1.white-wolf.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=795) (Box Set) Detailing 36 dungeon levels and dozens of wilderness areas. Book 1: The Dungeon of Graves - 232 pages of dungeon crawling Book 2: Servants, Slaves and Food - 96 pages of monsters and NPCs Book 3: Pathways to Damnation - 56 pages of maps. Wilderlands of High Fantasy (http://secure1.white-wolf.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=670) (Box Set) The Wilderlands of High Fantasy Boxed Campaign Set is the definitive Judge’s Guide to the Wilderlands. A companion Player’s Guide to the Wilderlands, this boxed set is unmatched in scope and detail. Far to many box contents to list here so check out the link. Tomb of Abysthor (http://secure1.white-wolf.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=150) (64 pages) A fantasy adventure published for the D20 system for 4 to 6 players of the 2nd to 8th level and higher. The Vault of Larin Karr (http://secure1.white-wolf.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=158) (96 pages) This adventure is 100% compatible with 3rd edition rules. It takes PCs from 4th to 9th level on a variety of exciting adventures.
ORC_Nashira 11-25-07, 02:58 PM	moving to appropriate forum, good luck!
Escef 11-25-07, 03:05 PM	We know D&D is far more vast and complex than BattleTech... :rofl: ... Stop, please, you're killing me! Between all the possible combinations of weapons, armor, speed, etc. on a mech, combined with that of other units and terrain and such... D&D is less complex than Battletech by a long shot. There are still mechs that I can rattle stats for off the top of my head (and for some weights I can make one without consulting the books, despite not having actively played in ages). You've more than the capacity to run the game. Trust me, you'll be fine. Just remember to be a bit flexable, and not to sweat the details too much when winging it.
Vathelokai 11-25-07, 03:41 PM	First recommendation: stick with the 3 core books for your first adventures. If you incorporate other books (not counting setting books) do it slowly. Remember, that in newer books, new abilities and the counters to those abilities are introduced at the same time (usually). In case you don't know: theres a thing called the SRD (system reference document). This is the 'open source' portion of the D&D rules. Websites like this one (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm) give you quick and easy access to the basic rules, and have a search function. Everything there is also in the main books. I've found it easier to learn things using the web sites, then looking in the main books for clarifications. Start out with low magic. Have a healer (bard or cleric) around, but until your more familiar with the rules, a full fledged wizard will be hard to run (simply due to the large number of bizarre effects they can do). Any more specific questions? Is it just you and your lady playing? EDIT: also the D&D Wiki (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Main_Page) might have what you are looking for (but I'm not as familiar with that).
Meles_Meles 11-25-07, 03:55 PM	I definitely agree with Vath: start out low magic. Honestly, you can run a "starter" campaign with Paladin, Ranger, Fighter, Rogue just fine. I think that's an excellent group for starting DMs (provided you make Potions of Cure Light Wounds fairly easy to come by). In all mechanically-run situations (combat, skill checks, saves, etc) run it by the rules. Strictly. As you get more experienced, you can get a feel for when it's okay to say "Yeah, I guess you can have a +2 bonus in the Grapple check because of your ranks in Tumble, seeing as how your character is rolling down a hill." But at the beginning, using the rules gives you a good idea of how skills and combat should "feel". There's nothing wrong with putting new players/DMs through their paces with a pre-session practice encounter. You put them in a hallway with a trap halfway down it, some greased floors, various things to Spot, Listen and Search for, a locked door, and a few monsters on the other side. Doesn't have to have any RP component, but it just lets you all get familiar with the system. I haven't played Battle Tech, nor do I know its arcane ways. So I can't compare it to D&D. Run a few of the mini-adventures published online by Wizards (this is a link) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20030530b). The lower level ones are very simple, and provide you with a good range of encounters to practice your in-combat DM skills. As for the RP element, just make sure that everyone's relaxed and doesn't feel under pressure to be a Shakespearean actor. Just because they're using swords doesn't mean they speak Olde Worlde Englysh. Don't start directly into a big mega-campaign. Unless you really want to. Be sure you're ready for handling that much information and answering questions like "I roll 23 on my Knowledge(history) check. What do I know about the history of this town?" Good luck!!
Watsyurname529 11-25-07, 04:03 PM	Like what the other people have said, stick to the 3 core books and run a couple of short adventures, idealy with the standard (more or less) party. The link to the mini-adventures are great and they were the first things I ran as a DM. Also, don't stress out if you don't know a rule off the top of your head or if you found out that you did it wrong. D&D has many rules to remember but just take it slow and don't try to memorize everything immediately. Also, on the D&D Wiki, that place has the entire D&D 3.5 SRD. Otherwise it's a homebrew site were people can post their creations. Unless you can find someone to talk to in the Tavern (a chat room run by the wiki) I wouldn't use stuff from there until you got a good grip on the core rules, but feel free to check it out anyway.
unrepentantweed 11-25-07, 08:50 PM	The Above advice is excellent and worth following. Doing anything you can to lighten the load will help. I would also recommend trying generate a few characters and monsters so that you can get a handle on the process. The next bit of advice is to think of the type of game you wish to run. The style of story, the importance of the rules, the other associated things like music and maps. Then I would try and run a quick and simple, very simple game. Think of it as a pilot episode. Odds are it will suck, I know that my first time at the helm did, but don't let that discourage you. The experience will help you become a better storyteller, and will help to develop the skills of this interactive role playing. Since there are two of you you can take turns running short solo games. Good luck and have fun.
Gabriel Dian 11-25-07, 11:49 PM	Good advice so far. I started out with The Burning Plague (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20000801a) - it's short, has very few types of monsters (all found in the MM and the SRD), can be successfully played by groups of players who don't have spellcasters (my group then had a fighter, a ranger, a rogue and a paladin, and they managed just fine), and later on can be successfully inserted into any setting or world. If you've got a good group, they'll support you even if you screw up sometimes (as I did). Start out with 1st level characters - preferably four of them, no less, no more - and give them 10hp more at 1st level. You don't want to kill anyone off in your first session (no matter how experienced you are) and keeping 1st level characters alive is hard work. Read the adventure at least twice and make sure you know how to run each one of the monsters. Go over the combat rules and at least the magic introduction - there's a cleric to run in the end of the adventure, you should know how to run him. There are lots of cheat sheets and DM screens that can help you with the combat rules - which are pretty complex, I'll admit. Steer away from creatures that can grapple, at least at first, if I'm not mistaken, then this adventure doesn't have any. As you've already learned, this forum is really helpful. You can get more ideas and help here (http://www.roleplayingtips.com/index.php) and here (http://www.enworld.org/) and here (http://www.treasuretables.org/) and here (http://medic78.googlepages.com/GMNotebook.pdf) If you want a mid level adventure, Red Hand of Doom is supposed to have a new, easier to run, format, specifically for inexperienced DMs. I have no idea what it's like - I haven't run it. Good luck!
Nat_20 11-26-07, 12:58 AM	Alright, do you have any friends that know how to play D&D well enough to DM??? I'm an experienced DM(not bragging) and have had to teach most of my old playing group. Whenever I felt like playing as a character and not DM, I let one of the other less experienced players create the story and I gave them pointers on rules and such, and often time they had to talk to me about an event in the story line that they were having rules trouble with, so they tell me what their thinking, i gave them a few rules pointers on it and played fairly and didn't use the info they told me to my advantage. Sometimes its that easy, if you are starting out with players that don't know much like yourself, then think of an easy dungeon crawl, look up the rules for common stuff like battle, skill checks, and even character creation. As you go through the dungeon, not only will you get a feel for the DM's seat, your players will get used to playing the game and learn the rules as well. That's pretty much all i can think of at the moment. I'll post some more ideas if they come to me. Good luck and good gaming, hope you have as much fun with the game as pretty much everyone else on the forums do. Have fun!
Etarnon 11-26-07, 02:56 AM	D&D 3.5 is way more complicated than Battletech. Seriously. Battletech rules can be read in 1.5 sittings. D&D 3.5 is about 5 or 6 sittings, and the inter-relation is complex, by an order of scale. Take your time with it go core rules, and start slow add in magic, but by bit. Do practice combats. - A big BT Fan since BattleDroidz.
Mulsiphix 11-26-07, 08:02 AM	Thank you very much for all the feedback. I greatly appreciate it. To those who asked, yes it will just be my wife and I during the learning phase. We don't know a soul who plays D&D locally and we don't have any friends that are interested, mainly due to full time jobs and kids of their own. Thanks so much :D
Sezarious 11-26-07, 08:23 AM	Thank you very much for all the feedback. I greatly appreciate it. To those who asked, yes it will just be my wife and I during the learning phase. We don't know a soul who plays D&D locally and we don't have any friends that are interested, mainly due to full time jobs and kids of their own. Thanks so much :D I live in NSW Australia if that helps. Also, get right in there with your description "With a slash to the neck and a spray of blood":). If you plan a good storyline, think into different areas, delve into personalities and twists in plots. Confuse perspectives for fun.
DMParadox 11-26-07, 11:36 AM	Since you and your wife are both interested and are limited on travel due to the kids, play some simple scenarios by yourselves. Take turns being the DM/player. You can both create characters individually and together. This will give you a chance to learn the base/core rules and classes in a relaxed environment where you can take time to look up rules on how things are done. Take some time with your wife and get the basics down together. Bounce ideas off each other. Look up questions and answers together. Storytelling will come along once your comfortable. Enjoy, have fun, and welcome!
Escef 11-26-07, 11:37 AM	D&D 3.5 is way more complicated than Battletech. Seriously. We obviously have some disagreement on this issue. Let us simply leave it at some people find one more difficult than than the other. YMMV, yes?
Mulsiphix 11-26-07, 11:58 AM	We obviously have some disagreement on this issue. Let us simply leave it at some people find one more difficult than than the other. YMMV, yes? I personally still find BattleTech somewhat daunting is certain situations. When you attempt to run a campaign that involves the rules from BattleTech, CityTech, AeroTech, and BattleSpace, not to mention large scale (non BattleForce rules) battles with 20+ different types of units (BattleMech being counted as a single type) you can easily get tripped up. I assumed D&D was more difficult when I opened up the Monster Manual and looked at the massive amount of information available per monster. I also figured if I would be creating a dungeon I would have these monsters but have to assign them personal stats and classes. A lot of assumption and guessing on my part with no real knowledge of how much information for those monsters would be actually used when giving that enemy a place in one of my dungeons. Lots of unknown for me :rolleyes:
Mulsiphix 11-25-07, 01:57 PM	My wife and I are brand new to Dungeons & Dragons. When we eventually host games we both will DM a group together. At this point we are just trying to figure out what the best way would be to tackle learning D&D. We do own several things already which are listed at the end of this post. We would greatly appreciate any advice, suggestions, recommendations for learning tools/products, links to guides or other online resources, etc... on how to go from knowing nothing about how D&D works, real life roleplaying, or how D&D is played -- all the way to knowledgeable DM's ready and capable of hosting a, successful and enjoyable, one/two year campaign for local players. Previous PnP Experience We've played plenty of BattleTech (BT, CityTech, Battle Force, Battle Space, and AeroTech) so we are very familliar with complex pen & paper rules. We know D&D is far more vast and complex than BattleTech but at least we have some Pen & Paper experience under out belts. Why We Need To Learn Without "Hands On" Experience/Aid I've been a long time video game RPG fantatic but due to an injury I sustained I can no longer play them. D&D has always been something I wished I could play but I never knew anybody who played. After doing a little research and finding this website I now know that I can get a group together if I become a DM. Due to the fact that I have two young children it really isn't possible for my wife and I to travel to participate in other peoples games. Being able to play online for an extended amount of time is hard on my hands, not to mention probably full of "hold on guys" as the children require attention every twenty minutes or so. So the learning process needs to be primarily restricted to the two of us without aid from experienced players, minus the advice received in these forums. Owned Core Material Player's Handbook (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndcore/175240000) Dungeon Masters Guide (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndcore/177520000) Monster Manual (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndcore/177550000) Owned Game Supplements Ptolus (http://www.ptolus.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?ptolus) (Ridiculously Large Book) The Ptolus setting can be used on its own or inserted into an existing campaign. Actually, it's both a setting and a mega-adventure that will take you from 1st to 20th level. 640-page deluxe full-color hardcover with bound-in fabric bookmarks and glued-in envelope containing double-sided poster map, 24 handouts, and CD-ROM. Rappan Athuk Reloaded (http://secure1.white-wolf.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=795) (Box Set) Detailing 36 dungeon levels and dozens of wilderness areas. Book 1: The Dungeon of Graves - 232 pages of dungeon crawling Book 2: Servants, Slaves and Food - 96 pages of monsters and NPCs Book 3: Pathways to Damnation - 56 pages of maps. Wilderlands of High Fantasy (http://secure1.white-wolf.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=670) (Box Set) The Wilderlands of High Fantasy Boxed Campaign Set is the definitive Judge’s Guide to the Wilderlands. A companion Player’s Guide to the Wilderlands, this boxed set is unmatched in scope and detail. Far to many box contents to list here so check out the link. Tomb of Abysthor (http://secure1.white-wolf.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=150) (64 pages) A fantasy adventure published for the D20 system for 4 to 6 players of the 2nd to 8th level and higher. The Vault of Larin Karr (http://secure1.white-wolf.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=158) (96 pages) This adventure is 100% compatible with 3rd edition rules. It takes PCs from 4th to 9th level on a variety of exciting adventures.
ORC_Nashira 11-25-07, 02:58 PM	moving to appropriate forum, good luck!
Escef 11-25-07, 03:05 PM	We know D&D is far more vast and complex than BattleTech... :rofl: ... Stop, please, you're killing me! Between all the possible combinations of weapons, armor, speed, etc. on a mech, combined with that of other units and terrain and such... D&D is less complex than Battletech by a long shot. There are still mechs that I can rattle stats for off the top of my head (and for some weights I can make one without consulting the books, despite not having actively played in ages). You've more than the capacity to run the game. Trust me, you'll be fine. Just remember to be a bit flexable, and not to sweat the details too much when winging it.
Vathelokai 11-25-07, 03:41 PM	First recommendation: stick with the 3 core books for your first adventures. If you incorporate other books (not counting setting books) do it slowly. Remember, that in newer books, new abilities and the counters to those abilities are introduced at the same time (usually). In case you don't know: theres a thing called the SRD (system reference document). This is the 'open source' portion of the D&D rules. Websites like this one (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm) give you quick and easy access to the basic rules, and have a search function. Everything there is also in the main books. I've found it easier to learn things using the web sites, then looking in the main books for clarifications. Start out with low magic. Have a healer (bard or cleric) around, but until your more familiar with the rules, a full fledged wizard will be hard to run (simply due to the large number of bizarre effects they can do). Any more specific questions? Is it just you and your lady playing? EDIT: also the D&D Wiki (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Main_Page) might have what you are looking for (but I'm not as familiar with that).
Meles_Meles 11-25-07, 03:55 PM	I definitely agree with Vath: start out low magic. Honestly, you can run a "starter" campaign with Paladin, Ranger, Fighter, Rogue just fine. I think that's an excellent group for starting DMs (provided you make Potions of Cure Light Wounds fairly easy to come by). In all mechanically-run situations (combat, skill checks, saves, etc) run it by the rules. Strictly. As you get more experienced, you can get a feel for when it's okay to say "Yeah, I guess you can have a +2 bonus in the Grapple check because of your ranks in Tumble, seeing as how your character is rolling down a hill." But at the beginning, using the rules gives you a good idea of how skills and combat should "feel". There's nothing wrong with putting new players/DMs through their paces with a pre-session practice encounter. You put them in a hallway with a trap halfway down it, some greased floors, various things to Spot, Listen and Search for, a locked door, and a few monsters on the other side. Doesn't have to have any RP component, but it just lets you all get familiar with the system. I haven't played Battle Tech, nor do I know its arcane ways. So I can't compare it to D&D. Run a few of the mini-adventures published online by Wizards (this is a link) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20030530b). The lower level ones are very simple, and provide you with a good range of encounters to practice your in-combat DM skills. As for the RP element, just make sure that everyone's relaxed and doesn't feel under pressure to be a Shakespearean actor. Just because they're using swords doesn't mean they speak Olde Worlde Englysh. Don't start directly into a big mega-campaign. Unless you really want to. Be sure you're ready for handling that much information and answering questions like "I roll 23 on my Knowledge(history) check. What do I know about the history of this town?" Good luck!!
Watsyurname529 11-25-07, 04:03 PM	Like what the other people have said, stick to the 3 core books and run a couple of short adventures, idealy with the standard (more or less) party. The link to the mini-adventures are great and they were the first things I ran as a DM. Also, don't stress out if you don't know a rule off the top of your head or if you found out that you did it wrong. D&D has many rules to remember but just take it slow and don't try to memorize everything immediately. Also, on the D&D Wiki, that place has the entire D&D 3.5 SRD. Otherwise it's a homebrew site were people can post their creations. Unless you can find someone to talk to in the Tavern (a chat room run by the wiki) I wouldn't use stuff from there until you got a good grip on the core rules, but feel free to check it out anyway.
unrepentantweed 11-25-07, 08:50 PM	The Above advice is excellent and worth following. Doing anything you can to lighten the load will help. I would also recommend trying generate a few characters and monsters so that you can get a handle on the process. The next bit of advice is to think of the type of game you wish to run. The style of story, the importance of the rules, the other associated things like music and maps. Then I would try and run a quick and simple, very simple game. Think of it as a pilot episode. Odds are it will suck, I know that my first time at the helm did, but don't let that discourage you. The experience will help you become a better storyteller, and will help to develop the skills of this interactive role playing. Since there are two of you you can take turns running short solo games. Good luck and have fun.
Gabriel Dian 11-25-07, 11:49 PM	Good advice so far. I started out with The Burning Plague (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20000801a) - it's short, has very few types of monsters (all found in the MM and the SRD), can be successfully played by groups of players who don't have spellcasters (my group then had a fighter, a ranger, a rogue and a paladin, and they managed just fine), and later on can be successfully inserted into any setting or world. If you've got a good group, they'll support you even if you screw up sometimes (as I did). Start out with 1st level characters - preferably four of them, no less, no more - and give them 10hp more at 1st level. You don't want to kill anyone off in your first session (no matter how experienced you are) and keeping 1st level characters alive is hard work. Read the adventure at least twice and make sure you know how to run each one of the monsters. Go over the combat rules and at least the magic introduction - there's a cleric to run in the end of the adventure, you should know how to run him. There are lots of cheat sheets and DM screens that can help you with the combat rules - which are pretty complex, I'll admit. Steer away from creatures that can grapple, at least at first, if I'm not mistaken, then this adventure doesn't have any. As you've already learned, this forum is really helpful. You can get more ideas and help here (http://www.roleplayingtips.com/index.php) and here (http://www.enworld.org/) and here (http://www.treasuretables.org/) and here (http://medic78.googlepages.com/GMNotebook.pdf) If you want a mid level adventure, Red Hand of Doom is supposed to have a new, easier to run, format, specifically for inexperienced DMs. I have no idea what it's like - I haven't run it. Good luck!
Nat_20 11-26-07, 12:58 AM	Alright, do you have any friends that know how to play D&D well enough to DM??? I'm an experienced DM(not bragging) and have had to teach most of my old playing group. Whenever I felt like playing as a character and not DM, I let one of the other less experienced players create the story and I gave them pointers on rules and such, and often time they had to talk to me about an event in the story line that they were having rules trouble with, so they tell me what their thinking, i gave them a few rules pointers on it and played fairly and didn't use the info they told me to my advantage. Sometimes its that easy, if you are starting out with players that don't know much like yourself, then think of an easy dungeon crawl, look up the rules for common stuff like battle, skill checks, and even character creation. As you go through the dungeon, not only will you get a feel for the DM's seat, your players will get used to playing the game and learn the rules as well. That's pretty much all i can think of at the moment. I'll post some more ideas if they come to me. Good luck and good gaming, hope you have as much fun with the game as pretty much everyone else on the forums do. Have fun!
Etarnon 11-26-07, 02:56 AM	D&D 3.5 is way more complicated than Battletech. Seriously. Battletech rules can be read in 1.5 sittings. D&D 3.5 is about 5 or 6 sittings, and the inter-relation is complex, by an order of scale. Take your time with it go core rules, and start slow add in magic, but by bit. Do practice combats. - A big BT Fan since BattleDroidz.
Mulsiphix 11-26-07, 08:02 AM	Thank you very much for all the feedback. I greatly appreciate it. To those who asked, yes it will just be my wife and I during the learning phase. We don't know a soul who plays D&D locally and we don't have any friends that are interested, mainly due to full time jobs and kids of their own. Thanks so much :D
Sezarious 11-26-07, 08:23 AM	Thank you very much for all the feedback. I greatly appreciate it. To those who asked, yes it will just be my wife and I during the learning phase. We don't know a soul who plays D&D locally and we don't have any friends that are interested, mainly due to full time jobs and kids of their own. Thanks so much :D I live in NSW Australia if that helps. Also, get right in there with your description "With a slash to the neck and a spray of blood":). If you plan a good storyline, think into different areas, delve into personalities and twists in plots. Confuse perspectives for fun.
DMParadox 11-26-07, 11:36 AM	Since you and your wife are both interested and are limited on travel due to the kids, play some simple scenarios by yourselves. Take turns being the DM/player. You can both create characters individually and together. This will give you a chance to learn the base/core rules and classes in a relaxed environment where you can take time to look up rules on how things are done. Take some time with your wife and get the basics down together. Bounce ideas off each other. Look up questions and answers together. Storytelling will come along once your comfortable. Enjoy, have fun, and welcome!
Escef 11-26-07, 11:37 AM	D&D 3.5 is way more complicated than Battletech. Seriously. We obviously have some disagreement on this issue. Let us simply leave it at some people find one more difficult than than the other. YMMV, yes?
Mulsiphix 11-26-07, 11:58 AM	We obviously have some disagreement on this issue. Let us simply leave it at some people find one more difficult than than the other. YMMV, yes? I personally still find BattleTech somewhat daunting is certain situations. When you attempt to run a campaign that involves the rules from BattleTech, CityTech, AeroTech, and BattleSpace, not to mention large scale (non BattleForce rules) battles with 20+ different types of units (BattleMech being counted as a single type) you can easily get tripped up. I assumed D&D was more difficult when I opened up the Monster Manual and looked at the massive amount of information available per monster. I also figured if I would be creating a dungeon I would have these monsters but have to assign them personal stats and classes. A lot of assumption and guessing on my part with no real knowledge of how much information for those monsters would be actually used when giving that enemy a place in one of my dungeons. Lots of unknown for me :rolleyes: