Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lankin the Mad Mage 02-14-04, 08:20 AM	being way in over my head? What makes you think so? Last session some rather cataclysimic events took place, and the players managed to flee by random planeshifting. The lucky dudes managed to land in celestia (AGAIN!). However, as soon as the Archons realized they were involved in said planar disturbance, they were told that there would be a court to judge them. There it would be decided wether or not they were responsible, and what punishment they were to receive. In the heat of the moment, I carelessly said that the Hebdomad would be the judges. In retrospect, this might have been a stupid move. So, how WOULD the Archons do such a thing? Where would they hold the trials? (not ecxpert on planar geography meself)? And what would the punishments be?
ieattrollsforbreakfast 02-14-04, 02:03 PM	The archons would not allow them to any but the first layer, whether they are being judged are not. Whatever you do, DON'T have all the Hebdomad show up. Zaphkiel will not show his face, and Raziel and Sealtiel will probably have much more important matters to deal with. If any of the Hebdomad will show up it will probably be Domiel the Mercy Bringer, and Barachiel might be there if only to let the others know how it went. A throne archon or two will probably be on the panel too. As far as where the trial would take place....I'm not sure the archons would want them in their beloved mountain at all...so that one could be tricky...perhaps somewhere on the shores of the sea surrounding the mountain on the first layer (I forget its name). Punishments....death? Perhaps only if the 'disturbance' is sever. The party would definately have all their equipment confiscated and may have to serve some time (ie, a long time) behind bars.
sciborg2 02-14-04, 03:59 PM	Well, the Hebdomad could be the tome archons from 2e, who many believe are avatars of the true Hebdomad. These or lesser archons could also be seen as the mouths of the hebdomad, vessels through which they can make their will know. The archons will point out that the Hebdomad are judging them, but only a small piece of their consciousness is needed to do so. Punishment wouldn't likely be death, but rather a service that rectifies whatever wrong they did, something that imparts a lesson. It should be dangerous, but not a suicide mission.
GoodGuy89 02-14-04, 04:26 PM	You could also use the "champions of" from the book of exalted deeds. You know, like Drusulai, the champion of pistis sophia. You could also use some archons w. the "paragon prestige classes" like someone w. the fist of raziel or emmisairy of barachiel
Arilou_skiff 02-14-04, 07:50 PM	I'd have it be done by some Throne Archons, possibly with some representatives of the Hebdomad (or even one or two members itself) present. Archons really don't believe in the death penalty (they're not the Red Death we're speaking of here, or even the harmonium) that's not to say their punishments wouldn't be severe, but the point would be that you should learn why what you did was wrong, if possible rectify it and finally not make the same mistake again.
GoodGuy89 02-15-04, 04:33 AM	Who said Geas/Quest:)
Lankin the Mad Mage 02-16-04, 03:33 AM	Well, the characters are about lvl 30 (or so), so I might have problems restricting them with lesser celestials. As for the severity of the event....well...Um...er...we kinda...er...blew up the positive & negative energy planes....
Arilou_skiff 02-16-04, 06:21 AM	Originally posted by Lankin the Mad Mage Well, the characters are about lvl 30 (or so), so I might have problems restricting them with lesser celestials. As for the severity of the event....well...Um...er...we kinda...er...blew up the positive & negative energy planes.... In THAT case then I could certainly see the Hebdomad itself convening, It would after all be the greatest disaster since... Well, ever.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 02-16-04, 06:41 AM	Wow, didnt realise it was that much of a problem! Thought you might have just spilt some milk or something! In that case the Hebdomad would intervene. I can see most of them attending, apart from Zaphkiel, who Barachiel would represent as well as himself.
Will Brandiman 02-16-04, 07:56 AM	Originally posted by Lankin the Mad Mage As for the severity of the event....well...Um...er...we kinda...er...blew up the positive & negative energy planes.... On the plus side, you've probably just rid the entire universe of the Undead. I reckon that might go down well in the case for the defence.
Lankin the Mad Mage 02-16-04, 09:09 AM	Ah, well, the results of the incident is yet not defined clearly. One party member is a lich (good lich, but still undead), and he's still around, so some undead must have survived. I know that I might have gone a little overboard, but everything happened so fast. Thanks for all the help so far. Still any ideas for punishment (if any).
Arilou_skiff 02-16-04, 11:25 AM	Originally posted by Lankin the Mad Mage Ah, well, the results of the incident is yet not defined clearly. One party member is a lich (good lich, but still undead), and he's still around, so some undead must have survived. I know that I might have gone a little overboard, but everything happened so fast. Thanks for all the help so far. Still any ideas for punishment (if any). To be fair I think their first reaction would be something like "YOU DID WHAT!?" Their second "And how do you intend to fix it?" That'd be the first punishment, getting the planes back then it depends, they certainly will have to take care of any business that goes astray because of the planes' destruction, then after that it depends on how it happened (stupidity? Good intentions gone bad?)
Lankin the Mad Mage 02-17-04, 05:22 AM	Well, it happened because they were trying to stop a Demi-lich's rand scheme to control all undead in the multiverse. They booby-trapped his doomsday-device and couldn't stop the BBEG before he used it. Since he's no longer in existence, the PC's are the only ones responsible left (along with a Positive energy dragon and a grey elf magic crafter who helped).
Kain Darkwind 02-17-04, 07:27 AM	Well, the energy planes form the existance of all life, representing the circle of birth and death. I don't think you could eliminate them from existance without taking all of the rest of existance with you.....the fact that anything still lives gives hope that the positive energy plane is still around, and that the lich lives too gives a good argument for the negative. The Hebdomad will surely see this. However, this explosion may have "shifted" the planes elsewhere, which would make them unobtainable by conventional means, like Planeshift. Also, one would assume that although they are still releasing their energy into the other planes, that it may be limited, or eratic. This is a great chance to insert planar effects resulting from this disaster into the next set of adventures. Perhaps too, the planes really were destroyed. And the limited amount of positive energy and negative energy existing in the planes is all that is left. However, maybe the planes can be recreated. Its up to you to decide how. As far as judgement, I would think the Hebdomad would consider you all fools for tampering with such powerful forces. And likely you would be forced to restore the two planes to their rightful state of existance.
Lankin the Mad Mage 02-17-04, 09:53 AM	But would they trust the PC's to do that, seeing how they managed the first "task"? I don't think the planes were entirely destroyed, but severely reduced/unbalanced/shifted. Planar incidents galore are happening across the great wheel, and the Archons are already doing their best to correct it. So, eveybody simply thinks that the PC's should be tasked with fixing this? If the guy who blew up your house while changing a lightbulb is tasked with rebuilding the house, won't that show bad judgement?
Will Brandiman 02-17-04, 10:08 AM	Well I'm fairly sure they can expect a severe ass-kicking if they don't do it right this time.
strenoth 02-17-04, 10:32 AM	i always sorta wondered what woudl happen if you created open (ie, no enviromental barrier) portals between the positive and negative material planes....
Ulden Throatbane 02-17-04, 02:48 PM	Community Service: The PCs have to create a new inner plane that connects to all of the existing inner planes (or at least the ones that still exist). The nature of this plane should remedy some of the problems they created. Alternatively, they could be tasked with extending the River Oceanus all the way to Celestia. This involves getting the permission of the other upper planes (The DM should decide why the Oceanus doesn't flow through all the upper planes in the first place), some nifty planar magic, and LOTS of digging. Edit: Make sure that the Archons, in some small way, recognize that the PCs did, when all is said and done, stop an epic BBEG. They may do this by building a small shrine in their honor, either on Lunia or in the gate-town Excelsior, called the "Temple of Unintended Consequences," or something like that.
Hrothgar the Dwarf 02-17-04, 06:19 PM	called the "Temple of Unintended Consequences," or something like that. man.. I have to figure out something for my PC's to do so I can build a temple of unintended consequences in our campaign... hrothgar the dwarf
dmdarkdragon 02-17-04, 07:56 PM	This is all well and good, but you can't forget that the denizens of Celestia won't be the only cutters who've got questions about this incident... Something of this magnitude's gonna cause a lotta talk. Might even start a conflict between a few planes...
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 02-17-04, 08:40 PM	Well, if they destroyed the two energy planes, the Rilmani are going to be slightly peeved. In fact, every single sapient being in the multiverse will be out for their blood. Except the Doomguard, who will celebrate the end of the multiverse.
Hrothgar the Dwarf 02-18-04, 01:18 AM	also, when dealing with the reprecussions of all of this, don't forget about the Inevitable's.. they're one of my favorite thing in the MotP and they would I think definately have something to say about all this, and even more if the pc's try to skip out on punishment or anything like that.. nothing like a 45HD Marut on your butt to make you think about what you've done. hroth
Lankin the Mad Mage 02-18-04, 06:59 AM	Originally posted by strenoth i always sorta wondered what woudl happen if you created open (ie, no enviromental barrier) portals between the positive and negative material planes.... Actually, that was what the PC's did. I like the "Temple of unintended consequenses". I am fully aware that the Archons aren't the only ones affected by this incident, but the Archons were closely tied to it. Their seer (Eratheol SP?) knew something bad was going to happen (well, everyone knew. When an empire launches an invasion of undead it's hard not to notice). So he told one of their agencies to stop it, which in turn "hired" the PC's as freelancers. I think the Archons might feel a little guilty for the whole thing. You are right that the Inevitables will feel vengeful about the whole thing. But if both Life and Death got dealt a blow, how can that be cosmically unbalancing to the rilmani? Both ends of the seesaw was lowered at the same time, after all... Creating a new plane seems good, perhaps several, so that they can act as conduits to and from the energy planes. Since the Energy planes are reduced, the PC's have to work to utilize them fully where it is needed. Kinda rationing out life and death to the needy?
PJammaGod 02-18-04, 07:47 AM	Originally posted by Raymond_Luxury_Yacht Well, if they destroyed the two energy planes, the Rilmani are going to be slightly peeved. In fact, every single sapient being in the multiverse will be out for their blood. Except the Doomguard, who will celebrate the end of the multiverse. Ahh well, the Doomguard need a break once in a while :) . I might even go ask if I can join in the muted festivities. I expect some other beings are going to be a little annoyed at the "minor" planar anomaly. I say the inevitables get a contract on the group, signed by at least a few lawful exemplars who are not pleased. Nothing like being hunted across the planes like a band of criminals that they are.
Ertai Planeswalker 02-20-04, 12:26 PM	Well, with the positive energy plane gone no new souls are created so the multiverse's population as is will not increase anymore. No new sentient life can be created. all children from now on will be born dead. You guys have killed an infinite number of people, depending on the timespan... that is good for the Celestial's offence. I don't know what level your party is, but the most logical solution would be to propose to go find the Words of Creation and restore the planes... Sounds more easy than it will be i guess!!! As for the undead, even if they did not fall apart directly, they should becoem weaker and weaker and perish in time. Also, any spells dealing with ressurection don't work anymore. Death = death. The multiverse, with enough time, will become extinct. Good go guys... LMAO
BrianMc223 02-27-04, 11:35 PM	5 things, 1)have Erathaol be the main judge, he is the smartest of the Hebdomad. 2) Erathaol would have had a good deal of information about what would happen to the planes and would have (most likely) tried to stop it. 3) In my world Erathaol can cast arcane spells as a 20th level Sorc with most spells known. He is one of the most inteligent creatures in the multiverse. (I'm aware sorc uses charisma and wizard fits better, but it dosen't prepearing and stuff just dosent work.) 4) Erathaol is the coolest creature ever, my opinion could be biased. 5) These charectors are level 30, Erathaol knows everything about them, even if they forgot. (He knows childhood knicknames and wether they were disruptive in kindagarden. Have fun with that. :smirk:
jedrious 02-28-04, 12:43 AM	well perhaps the hebdomad could teachthe party the epic spell seed genesis which requires 40 ranks of knowledge arcana, nature, and religion as well as the words of creation feat and say fix it
jedrious 02-28-04, 12:42 PM	Brian you sent me a pm on genesis but since it's relevant her and your box is full I'll just put it here BrianMc223 wrote on 02-28-04 05:30 PM: Could you by any chance give me some more specifics? (You mentioned it in a topic on the Book of Exaulted deeds board, and it would be quite usefull to my wizard.) Thanks if you will, and thanks for your time if you won't. Genesis has appeared several times it's on page 117 of the epic level handbook, page 86 of defenders of the faith, and on page 77 of the psionics handbook
Crossover-Chronicler 02-28-04, 01:09 PM	Originally posted by Lankin the Mad Mage As for the severity of the event....well...Um...er...we kinda...er...blew up the positive & negative energy planes.... Yes, I'd say the Hebdomad would rouse themselves for this one. However, I don't think they would say "fix it," no matter how "fitting" a punishment that might be. They wouldn't entrust such a vital task to the mortals who broke it, with no guarantee they even could, when the (potential) existence of the universe hangs in the balance. Rather, the Hebdomad would petition the appropriate lawful and/or good deities to repair the shattered planes. The PCs might get stuck cleaning up the mess: "There are bits of planar flotsam and energon parts scattered all over the multiverse. Here's a broom for you and a mopfor you. You get 'brain detail.' Now get to work." Otherwise, a period of enforced solitude (read: imprisonment) and contemplation over the consequences of their actions, and the demand to pay severe reparations to the victims (the multiverse in general). They would hold the trial somewhere secure. It would probably be in the Seven Heavens, and in one of the most fortified areas the Hebdomad felt appropriate to take the PCs (as high up as necessary to ensure the trial isn't interrupted). I could see the PCs all receiving a geas or mark of justice (or stronger magic) to "Never do anything that :censored:stupid again."
BenjCano 02-28-04, 06:33 PM	Nah. Hold the trial in Mechanus, since the PCs actions affected both good and evil equally. Have Wee Jas prosecute them before the Hebdomad (man, imagine facing her from the witness box) and Boccob for the defense (because someone's got to do it).
Orion Silverhelm 02-28-04, 06:45 PM	as far as who would convene on the court of this particular case... I believe this would be even beyond the hands of the Hebdomad. The gods themselves would most likely intervene evil and good. You can be sure Bahamut (who lives in celestia) would be there as well. No doubt the hebdomad would be there... Same with the companions and the chaotic good paragaons, everyone would insist upon sitting on the trial. Try to find a neutral plane to transfer the court on. Possibly having a god form a demiplane just for this event.
AvonRekaes 02-29-04, 07:58 PM	Perhaps the energy planes are discovered to have been flung far into the Far Realm, and the PCs are sentenced to go find it. Banishment to the Far Realm is pretty nasty, and even though this kind of sentence is technically the "fix it" sentence, I don't think anyone really *wants* to go into the Far Realm themselves. So they leave it up to those responsible for the whole thing to begin with.
Brian.C 02-29-04, 10:04 PM	I agree that a crime of this magnitude is beyond the Hebdomad's jurisdiction. They might be in charge of arresting the PCs, but the gods themselves should be in charge of whatever trial is involved. Obviously, Rao should be the judge of such a court. Since the PCs did this in order to foil a demi-lich, Wee Jas would jump at the chance to prosecute. St. Cuthbert would be the ideal choice for defense - he might sympathise with the PCs' reasons for doing what they did. There'd likely be no jury - Rao would decide the verdict, and the prosecution and defense would get to argue on the penalty (if it's a guity verdict). Rao would have the ultimate say in the matter. If it comes to that, the DM should be a little merciful. Although Wee Jas would push for the death penalty, a better idea would be for the gods to force the PCs to undo what they did - or if that is already taken care of (the gods might already have a way to fix it) some divine community service might be in order. The PCs might be forced into divine servitude for a while - in essence, become the unwilling proxies of one or more gods for a few years. This may be a better fate then being aquitted, because it opens the doors for a great deal of adventure hooks. The choice is up to you. - Brian
BenjCano 03-01-04, 12:22 AM	A better penalty, and one I think Wee Jas would relish arguing for, would be for her to take the PCs back to her realm and rip apart their souls into both positive and negative energies, and use that essence to regrow the destroyed planes.
Brian.C 03-01-04, 12:35 AM	I believe THAT would be "cruel and unusual," and Rao would never agree to it. Besides, even when dealing with deities, there should never be a situation where doom is unescapable. That violates one of the cardinal rules of the D&D game. - Brian
BenjCano 03-01-04, 12:38 AM	True, but "cruel and unusual" is Wee Jas's middle name. Wee Cruel and Unusual Jas. I didn't say that the DM should actually impose this penalty, mind you, just that she would likely have great pleasure arguing for it, and it would serve to increase the dramatic tension at the gaming table.
Brian.C 03-01-04, 12:43 AM	I guess you're right. Make the players sweat. It would be bad enough facing her cross-examination on the witness stand! :devil: Still, something like this sure would be interesting... - Brian
Lankin the Mad Mage 03-01-04, 03:39 AM	Well, the task of judging them fell upon the Hebdomad because the PC randomly planeshifted to Celestia to escape the explosion. And since they're already there, the celestials took it upon themselves to judge them. The gods play a minor role. I kinda decided they were too busy arguing among themselves about who will get the privilidge to flay the PC's to actually do something. Since they'll never agree, they left it to the Hebdomad, since they can be trusted. However, both Asmodeus and Primus are remote-viewing the event and making comments. The death penalty is out. Many of the celestials are disappointed at this, but there are quite a lot of prophesies about the PC's, and Erathaol knows that killing them will be a bad thing. That's one of the reasons the deities are fighting: The evil ones want to kill, the good ones want to save. BTW, who's Rao? Haven't seen him in the PHB.
Brian.C 03-01-04, 04:27 AM	Rao is an important god in the Greyhawk pantheon, but he was omitted from Deities and Demigods for lack of space. He is the god of reason, peace, and law, and is the wisest of the gods. His stats were done in an issue of Dragon, and he had many Skill ranks in Profession (Judge) and Knowledge (Laws), so I assumed he has experience with such things. But onto the subject at hand, one thing that must be noted is, it really wasn't the PCs' fault here; the demi-lich was the one responsible. All the PCs really have to do now is find a way to prove it... - Brian
Chlorr of the Mask 03-02-04, 09:27 AM	BTW, that demi-lich wouldn't have been Acererak, would it? That grand scheme to control all undead in the multiverse sounds exactly like what he tried to do in the Return to the Tomb of Horrors adventure.
Lankin the Mad Mage 03-03-04, 05:13 AM	That Demi-lich was Nyaxti, who had lain dormant for 1000 since someone busted his phylactery. My own creation. The plot to control undead is from the 100 plots table in the ELH. I never use BBEG's made by others.