Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sim_antix 08-16-07, 03:48 AM	Am I alone in my feeling of betrayal at the lies told to us repeatedly over the months by Wotc employees about the release date of 4th edition?
caeruleus 08-16-07, 03:57 AM	What did they say, exactly? Did they give a date? They may just be announcing that it's coming, I doubt they'll release it right away.
Airos 08-16-07, 04:27 AM	No, you are not alone in that feeling. (My feelings as posted on the boards business thread about this topic) 13430473
aotrscommander 08-16-07, 06:22 AM	If this is indeed genunie and not either an elaborate spoof or a joke at our expense, I must say that then I am disappointed in Wizards. Not at the release of 4th, seeing as that was eventual, but it seems rather too soon. To me, it sounds awfully like 4th will not get a whole lot of playtesting (since unless they were flat-out lying to us, they can't have been working on it long; that in itself is both pathetic and counter productive) - Saga has barely come out, so the whole "wait a year before integrating new stuff" doesn't seem to apply here (i.e. the indicators are there that 4th will be similar to Saga). Makes me wonder why anyone will bother buying the Rules Compendium - seems like shooting yourself in the foot. So, instead of being relatively pleased to see the new edition, I am at once very cynical. I was not overly impressed by Saga, nor of the recent spate of sources books. And it would seem very unlikely, after all the promises, we will see any errata for 3.5 after all. I will examine the rules very carefully before I buy them, and if I don't think it's up to scratch, I won't bother. Wizards seem to be treading a very fine line here. If this 4th edition is not a unilateral improvement (and this means "not just a clone of Saga"), I can see a hell of a lot of people not buying it.
VadersEvilTwin 08-16-07, 06:35 AM	Doesn't make you want to trust them does it?
Xeque 08-16-07, 07:28 AM	You're criticizing them without being sure yet that the 4ed will actually be announced today?:confused:
Anaxander 08-16-07, 07:33 AM	They 'lied' in order to surprise us all, like a secret birthday party gone wrong :D
SillyRobot 08-16-07, 07:42 AM	There is a confirmatory post at theminiaturespage.com here (http://theminiaturespage.com/news/519193). It sets the date of first release of a game product at May 2008.
Fatalis_902 08-16-07, 07:43 AM	I don't care what their motivation was, I'm still p***edabout this. It ust doesn't seem right. Here's hoping that the new edition will either be announced today to come out several years from now, or the new rules will be backwards compatible so I can still use my old books.
Xeque 08-16-07, 07:49 AM	Wow, I had the PHB in my hand, three days ago. I almost bought it. Now I'll wait almost a year, until I buy something :(
Seeker95 08-16-07, 08:36 AM	Am I alone in my feeling of betrayal at the lies told to us repeatedly over the months by WotC employees about the release date of 4th edition?You are not alone. But I do not share your feelings. My life has enough joy and worth that it cannot be negatively affected by the decisions the makers of my favorite roleplaying game may make with regard to the operation of their business. WotC did a great job saving my favorite game from obscurity. I trust they will do a good job with 4e. It's release date does not affect me emotionally.
aotrscommander 08-16-07, 08:39 AM	Here's hoping that the new edition will either be announced today to come out several years from now, or the new rules will be backwards compatible so I can still use my old books. My thoughts exactly. I don't object to a 4th edition, necessarily, but I think it's a bit too soon. If they want to work on it for a year or two, and get the community involved fro the near-start, then ace, I'm all for it (and even if I don't like the final outcome, at least I'll have felt like I had a chance to put some input into it). What bothers me with this May 2008 release malarky is that it implies 4E might be like SW Saga, which I don't think is a good step forwards (I think the Saga skill system is a massive leap back). I wasn't struck by Saga - it has some clever ideas, but unlike 3.x, it didn't have me wowed almost throughout the book with clever ideas and some I distinctly dislike.
Edymnion 08-16-07, 08:41 AM	Am I alone in my feeling of betrayal at the lies told to us repeatedly over the months by Wotc employees about the release date of 4th edition?Honestly, if you thought WotC wasn't lying to your face this entire time, you are a very naive, gullible person. Saying you're not working on something when you really are is standard business practice. Any company will flat out refuse having anything to do with a topic until the day they decide to officially announce it's existance.
Meems 08-16-07, 09:01 AM	I actually think it's fair enough for them to keep it a secret--and even deny that they're working on it--until the release date nears. It stops too many spoilers from leaking out, and as Endymnion said, it's pretty much standard business practice.
Xyxox 08-16-07, 09:29 AM	They did not lie. There was no 4E when they said that. There still is no 4E. What they are doing is announcing, well in advance, that 4E is now coming. And you can't blame them one little bit for the way they did it. The signs were all there for those who paid attention. The biggest sign should have been the Spell Compendium. The rules bloat and the crunch beyond all crunch was a telling sign, too. Then they ramped back production. And it comes down to WotC is a business and they must run it like a business. All businesses must keep trade secrets. Any information shared with third parties, like Paizo, were covered under non-disclosure agreements. This is all standard business practice and is to be expected. They've handled this all admirably and, if they release an SRD under an OGL, I will certianly be participating in 4E, probably to a great extent online!
xmen510 08-16-07, 09:31 AM	Well, we have less than 9 hours until we find out one way or another. Then all of these threads will be moot.
MarkHall 08-16-07, 10:15 AM	Am I alone in my feeling of betrayal at the lies told to us repeatedly over the months by Wotc employees about the release date of 4th edition? They did pretty much the same thing with 3.0. Denydenydeny, Oh, you meant that new edition. If you go to my website and check under Independant projects, you'll see the version of 3e I worked on while they were denying. HAIL ERIS!
vaerdhdragonkin 08-16-07, 10:29 AM	Feeling "betrayed" is just silly. If you begrudge a corporation for following SOP, then you're living in the wrong economy. As to "shooting themselves in the foot," I don't believe they have. The number of people, on this forum and others I frequent, seems representative of a large group of people who plan to tell WotC to frell themselves when 4th Edition is released, and remain loyal to 3.X.
Edymnion 08-16-07, 11:11 AM	As to "shooting themselves in the foot," I don't believe they have. The number of people, on this forum and others I frequent, seems representative of a large group of people who plan to tell WotC to frell themselves when 4th Edition is released, and remain loyal to 3.X.Thats what people said about 3e and 2e.
pres_man 08-16-07, 11:49 AM	Thats what people said about 3e and 2e. Well I know personally if I see a good 3e book, I still purchase it. The adjustment isn't very hard from 3e to 3.5e. I finally purchased MMII a month and a half ago because I got sick of waiting for someone to sell their used copy. The problem isn't so much that they lied or didn't say, but the problem was really calling your customers liars. That is where the "betrayal" comes in.
KillerVole 08-16-07, 12:03 PM	I'm disappointed, but really expected some level of "secrecy" (not telling us the whole story). To be fair, Wizards isn't half as bad as some companies. Wizkids games literally denied a rumor, then announced the product six days later. They outright lied to their customers so often that Wizards general honesty is pretty refreshing for me.
Edymnion 08-16-07, 12:10 PM	They did not lie. There was no 4E when they said that. There still is no 4E. What they are doing is announcing, well in advance, that 4E is now coming.Just a nitpick, they specifically said they were not WORKING on 4e, which is technically a lie, even if it is standard practice.
DoveArrow 08-16-07, 12:13 PM	They didn't lie. They have always said they had no scheduled date for release, and until now, there was no scheduled date for release. Scheduled date for release means they have specifically stated that x is going to be released on y. Did anyone at Wizards lie and say that it was going to be released on z instead? The answer to that question is no. So honestly! Stop getting indignant for no reason.
1 ton ghost 08-16-07, 12:27 PM	none of this matters ppl... it's happening, deal w/ it. you have the right and/or duty to not spend your money on 4th ed. whether it's a trade secret or not is irreleant. they are trying to prot. a corporate asset though these days they seem more interested in other ventures and R&D/marketing reflects this. i'm upset/offended for my own reasons, though i doubt i'm alone in this. -Dragon/Dungeon mag most likely killed off to save $ for this and the new DI. how do you kill 31 yrs. of success for something that's not a sure thing? i'm conservative in many respects and it seems like putting all your eggs in 1 basket. -the new DI is presumptuous. a good idea...as a supplement, but it's arrogant to assume ppl will pay or even have internet. some places you just can't get it (net). what will they do? -a poll, surveys, anything would've been nice as a precedent to 4th ed. announcing this w/out a "why" mimics dumping paizo (dishonorable/ungrateful to say the least) closely in that the press release was your typical "nonexplanation"
Sim_antix 08-16-07, 01:23 PM	1. Several times we were told that 4th Edition was not even being developed. 2. People repeatedly asked when it would be released given all the signs that it was impending and we were told that it was not going to be released for years yet. (see above) 3. SOP aside it is bs to release a new edition this way, when your loyal customers ask you how soon it is going to be you can say "soon enough" without giving anything away. Then at least your not a filthy lying :censored:
Sim_antix 08-16-07, 01:25 PM	Honestly, if you thought WotC wasn't lying to your face this entire time, you are a very naive, gullible person. Saying you're not working on something when you really are is standard business practice. Any company will flat out refuse having anything to do with a topic until the day they decide to officially announce it's existance. No I knew they were and rather than get involved in all the 4e threads I decided to just wait until they did this so I could call them out on all of their lies because for me at least it is important that my money be spent on products made by a company that hasn't blatantly lied to me over several months/years.
Xyxox 08-16-07, 01:31 PM	Just a nitpick, they specifically said they were not WORKING on 4e, which is technically a lie, even if it is standard practice. Again, they were not lying. They were not ACTIVELY working on 4E. Ideas were produced for 3E products. Many of the ideas never made it into 3E and were saved for 4E. It's that simple. Active development on 4E would not have begun until after D&D Experience this year. Look at the release schedule. It starts in May of 2008 and runs through July of 2008 for the core. There are going to be four more books next year for 4E, too, based upon what I've read, so that fits in perfectly with what they said was a development cycle for such a thing, or 1.5 - 2 years. 1.5 years for the core. 2 years to flesh it out pretty much fully. Everything from their becomes optional crunch and fluff., which is how 3E and 3.5E played out, too.
adamb0nd 08-16-07, 01:34 PM	Old 08-12-07, 02:53 AM WizO_Paradox's Avatar WizO_Paradox WizO_Paradox is offline There/Not There Join Date: Mar 2001 Default Re: 4e just say no I already DO say there's no 4e, but some choose not to listen to me. The whole "OMG! 4e is coming out! I'm not buying it!" movement has been going on for a couple of years now. Some predicted we'd have 4e in 2007. *Looks around* Nope, not here. And since there is no 4e, organizing a boycott against it just seems more like trolling at this point. I've known about 4th edition for a while. As I said before, I know some guys at the comic shop. It has nothing to do with their secret dnd society or any thing stupid like that... but more along the line of vender catalogs. So you can see my confusion when I came to these boards and the admins **** down the throats of any one who opened their mouth to talk about 4th edition. Its one thing to say "calm down, nothing is set in stone"... its another to lock threads based on the subject and saying it will not happen.
Xyxox 08-16-07, 01:58 PM	I've known about 4th edition for a while. As I said before, I know some guys at the comic shop. It has nothing to do with their secret dnd society or any thing stupid like that... but more along the line of vender catalogs. So you can see my confusion when I came to these boards and the admins **** down the throats of any one who opened their mouth to talk about 4th edition. Its one thing to say "calm down, nothing is set in stone"... its another to lock threads based on the subject and saying it will not happen. There's a big difference between somebody with WotC on their name and Wizo on their name. WotC people are employees of the company made privy to corporate secrets. Wizos are volunteer moderators on a message board who are not made privy to corporate secrets. So when it came to 4E, Wiz0_Paradox knew precisely as much as you or anybody else who posts on these boards and doesn't have WotC in front of their name. Take it from me, I was TSRO_Wyzo before WotC bought out TSR, and for quite a while thereafter. The TSROs had no clue about the buyout back then or the 3E announcement before it happened and the Wizos had no clue about the 4E announcement other than the clues everybody in this community had.
TheYeti1775 08-16-07, 02:02 PM	There's a big difference between somebody with WotC on tehir name and Wizo on their name. WotC people are employees of the company made privy to corporate secrets. Wizos are volunteer moderators on a message board who are not made privy to corporate secrets. So when it came to 4E, Wiz0_Paradox knew precisely as much as you or anybody else who posts on these boards and doesn't have WotC in front of their name. Technically the WizO's do represent Corporate WOTC as they are paid. Just read that over on the RPG Board Business side. Never knew it before, but in that light that creates a whole new realm of accountability for their actions.
Sim_antix 08-16-07, 02:04 PM	Technically the WizO's do represent Corporate WOTC as they are paid. Just read that over on the RPG Board Business side. Never knew it before, but in that light that creates a whole new realm of accountability for their actions. My point exactly.
Xyxox 08-16-07, 02:05 PM	Technically the WizO's do represent Corporate WOTC as they are paid. Just read that over on the RPG Board Business side. Never knew it before, but in that light that creates a whole new realm of accountability for their actions. Bull hockey. They are paid in product, and what they are paid does not amount to minum wage. It was that way back when TSR owned the IP, too. They are not informaed about corporate secrets, plain and simple. It makes as much sense for you to hold them accountable for 4E and what WotC released related to 4E as it does for me to hold you accountable for the failure of New Coke.
Xyxox 08-16-07, 02:07 PM	My point exactly. Your point is ridiculous. They are not made privy to corporate secrets as they cannot be held accountable like a real employee. They are given products for the hours upon hours they spend on these boards and in the chat room. It isn't even minimum wage, so trying to hold Wizos accountable for what WotC does is not only ridiculous, it's downright uninformed.
MHolland 08-16-07, 02:18 PM	Depends on the WizO I guess. Some of them are not only admin but game developers as well so they 'could' have an inside track depending on which one you were talking about. The WizO who was also one of the primary writers for SAGA comes to mind. Some are no more than fans who dedicate their time to deal with us (some of most ornery folks in existence) and god bless em for doing so.
Sim_antix 08-16-07, 02:21 PM	Bull hockey. They are paid in product, and what they are paid does not amount to minum wage. It was that way back when TSR owned the IP, too. They are not informaed about corporate secrets, plain and simple. It makes as much sense for you to hold them accountable for 4E and what WotC released related to 4E as it does for me to hold you accountable for the failure of New Coke. They are paid in cash. Your point is ridiculous. They are not made privy to corporate secrets as they cannot be held accountable like a real employee. They are given products for the hours upon hours they spend on these boards and in the chat room. It isn't even minimum wage, so trying to hold Wizos accountable for what WotC does is not only ridiculous, it's downright uninformed. They might not have known, but then it is doubly irresponsible to dismiss the rumors. Also as a former moderator I expect better from you and your posts.
Ornum 08-16-07, 02:21 PM	Your point is ridiculous. They are not made privy to corporate secrets as they cannot be held accountable like a real employee. They are given products for the hours upon hours they spend on these boards and in the chat room. It isn't even minimum wage, so trying to hold Wizos accountable for what WotC does is not only ridiculous, it's downright uninformed. You are right, Wizos should not be held accountable for what WotC does. They should be accountable for what they say, however. If they aren't given the information, then they shouldn't make comments like the one quoted previously. If the statement was based on information given by someone within WotC, then they should be extremely angry for being put in this position because they were lied to. Whether they deserve it or not, the Wizos are going to take some heat from this.
Xyxox 08-16-07, 02:57 PM	You are right, Wizos should not be held accountable for what WotC does. They should be accountable for what they say, however. If they aren't given the information, then they shouldn't make comments like the one quoted previously. If the statement was based on information given by someone within WotC, then they should be extremely angry for being put in this position because they were lied to. Whether they deserve it or not, the Wizos are going to take some heat from this. The stamenet Paradox made was his *opinion*. He has as much right to his *opinion* as do you. IF you're going to give the Wizos heat for this, I suggest you find a new forum as you won't be long for this one.
Xyxox 08-16-07, 02:59 PM	They are paid in cash.. Link please, because they certainly weren't paid in cash when I was a TSRO, and they weren't paid in cash after WotC picked up TSR. They might not have known, but then it is doubly irresponsible to dismiss the rumors. If that is so, then by your logic you are not entitled to any opinions on these boards either. Also as a former moderator I expect better from you and your posts. As a former moderator, I'd suggest you take your anti-4E angst away from these forums as taking out WotC decisions on Wizos will not be a very healthy way to interact here. I can almost guarantee that.
Xyxox 08-16-07, 03:00 PM	Depends on the WizO I guess. Some of them are not only admin but game developers as well so they 'could' have an inside track depending on which one you were talking about. The WizO who was also one of the primary writers for SAGA comes to mind. Some are no more than fans who dedicate their time to deal with us (some of most ornery folks in existence) and god bless em for doing so. Those who are game developers have WOTC in their names, not Wizo.
Sim_antix 08-16-07, 03:04 PM	Why are you spamming this thread? Use the multiquote button.
Xyxox 08-16-07, 03:09 PM	Why are you spamming this thread? Use the multiquote button. I apologize as I did not know of the existance of the multi quote button. It's been a while since I particpated in these forums and that must have been an upgrade since I last participated on a regular basis.
Sim_antix 08-16-07, 03:14 PM	Link please, because they certainly weren't paid in cash when I was a TSRO, and they weren't paid in cash after WotC picked up TSR. I do not have the link but someone can point you in the right direction I am sure. It is the page were you sign up to be a wizo, it tells you right there that it is a paid position. If that is so, then by your logic you are not entitled to any opinions on these boards either. 1. I am not a Wotc employee. 2. I do not give my opinion when I know for a fact that I am not right. As a former moderator, I'd suggest you take your anti-4E angst away from these forums as taking out WotC decisions on Wizos will not be a very healthy way to interact here. I can almost guarantee that. The moderators and I have had a few issues and if they take offense to this then let them, I am merely calling them out on their lies.
Ornum 08-16-07, 03:19 PM	The stamenet Paradox made was his *opinion*. He has as much right to his *opinion* as do you. IF you're going to give the Wizos heat for this, I suggest you find a new forum as you won't be long for this one. I'm not going to give any heat, thank you. They will catch heat because they are the "faces" of the forums, so to speak. They are the most recognizable arm of WotC here and they will hear about people's anger over the whole situation. I know it's not their fault. In no way did I say that I would do anything, and I'd appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth. The above statement should be amended to "IF *anyone's* going to give the Wizos heat for this, I suggest *they* find a new forum as *they* won't be long for this one" and leave the finger pointing at me out of it. Now, do I like the release of 4e, or even WotC's practices leading up to it? Not really, my players and I have spent way too much on this edition. We played 2nd since '91 but we didn't like the mechanics, it was just what we had to work with so we used it. We bought a lot of stuff (everything Planescape, some Realms, some Greyhawk, and even some Ravenloft) and we settled on what we had created and Planescape. Once Planescape ended and the announcement for 3e came, we loved the idea and bought into it. We liked what we saw. When 3.5 came out, we were hesitant, but we like the changes enough that we bought most of what caught our eye over the years. I've already talked about this with my players, and they all agree that they like 3.5 enough that a switch to 4 just isn't an option. Will I buy it? Maybe some day down the road, if it turns out to be an improvement, but "new" doesn't always mean better.
Xyxox 08-16-07, 03:20 PM	I do not have the link but someone can point you in the right direction I am sure. It is the page were you sign up to be a wizo, it tells you right there that it is a paid position. I'll believe it when I see it. 1. I am not a Wotc employee. 2. I do not give my opinion when I know for a fact that I am not right.. 1. Irrelevent 2. Your assumption that Wizo_Paradox knew 4E was going to be announced at Gencon is unfounded. The moderators and I have had a few issues and if they take offense to this then let them, I am merely calling them out on their lies. You have made unfounded accusations. You ahve not demonstrated Wizo_Paradox lied. all I can say is, see ya around the net because with this sort of a reaction I suspect your account will go the way many did on the old WotC site after 3E was announced.
TimeBandit 08-16-07, 03:23 PM	I'm not switching over to 4e. I'm going to finish my 3.5 campaign and that's it, I'm out. I have better things to do with my money than give it to Wotc.
Xyxox 08-16-07, 03:24 PM	I'm not going to give any heat, thank you. They will catch heat because they are the "faces" of the forums, so to speak. They are the most recognizable arm of WotC here and they will hear about people's anger over the whole situation. I know it's not their fault. In no way did I say that I would do anything, and I'd appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth. The above statement should be amended to "IF *anyone's* going to give the Wizos heat for this, I suggest *they* find a new forum as *they* won't be long for this one" and leave the finger pointing at me out of it. Now, do I like the release of 4e, or even WotC's practices leading up to it? Not really, my players and I have spent way too much on this edition. We played 2nd since '91 but we didn't like the mechanics, it was just what we had to work with so we used it. We bought a lot of stuff (everything Planescape, some Realms, some Greyhawk, and even some Ravenloft) and we settled on what we had created and Planescape. Once Planescape ended and the announcement for 3e came, we loved the idea and bought into it. We liked what we saw. When 3.5 came out, we were hesitant, but we like the changes enough that we bought most of what caught our eye over the years. I've already talked about this with my players, and they all agree that they like 3.5 enough that a switch to 4 just isn't an option. Will I buy it? Maybe some day down the road, if it turns out to be an improvement, but "new" doesn't always mean better. You know what, the Wizos caught heat when 3E was announced. A lot of heat. It was not their decision to release a new edition. They did not know a new edition was going to be relased. Point being, those who generated the heat were removed from the situation entirely. Opinions about an announcement made today are fair enough. Giving Wizos grief over something entirely out of their control and of which they were not informed is not only unfair, it's absurd behavior. I'll stick up for the Wizos, especially Wizo_Paradox. If anybody on these forums have a problem with a WotC decision, they should take it up with WotC. The Wizos had nothing to do with it and thus directing anger at the Wizos will accomplish nothing but antagonism.
SokenzanMarauder 08-16-07, 03:25 PM	I agree with you Sim. As of late WotC has taken the cake for my "****** corporation" list. Their business policies just suck nuts. -Gene
Sim_antix 08-16-07, 03:27 PM	I'll believe it when I see it. As is your choice to do. 1. Irrelevent 2. Your assumption that Wizo_Paradox knew 4E was going to be announced at Gencon is unfounded. 1. No it actually is relevant. 2. No it isn't. You have made unfounded accusations. You ahve not demonstrated Wizo_Paradox lied. all I can say is, see ya around the net because with this sort of a reaction I suspect your account will go the way many did on the old WotC site after 3E was announced. Yeah, ok. :rolleyes:
Ornum 08-16-07, 03:34 PM	You know what, the Wizos caught heat when 3E was announced. A lot of heat. It was not their decision to release a new edition. They did not know a new edition was going to be relased. Point being, those who generated the heat were removed from the situation entirely. Opinions about an announcement made today are fair enough. Giving Wizos grief over something entirely out of their control and of which they were not informed is not only unfair, it's absurd behavior. I'll stick up for the Wizos, especially Wizo_Paradox. If anybody on these forums have a problem with a WotC decision, they should take it up with WotC. The Wizos had nothing to do with it and thus directing anger at the Wizos will accomplish nothing but antagonism. I am aware of this. They get A LOT of grief over things they have no control over. WotC is to blame for much of it. Since those in charge at WotC are nearly impossible to reach, it falls on those that moderate the forums. Right or wrong (and most of the time it IS wrong), that's just the way things are and if I were in the Wizos' shoes, I'd not be happy with my "employer" for putting me in this type of situation, especially if I had made assurances two days ago that such a thing would not be happening soon.
Xyxox 08-16-07, 03:38 PM	As is your choice to do. I went to the FAQ and looked up how to become a WizO. Not a word about being paid. 1. No it actually is relevant. Actually, since you did not demonstrate they are actually paid employees (your word was "cash"), it is irrelevant. 2. No it isn't. PROVE WizO_Paradox knew 4E was going to be announced at GenCon when he made the statement or your accusation is unfounded. The burden of proof is on you. your accusation can be construed as not only wrong, but also actionable in a civil court and in a civil court of law, you'd be required to prove your accusaion. And before you go laughing, there is legal precedent on this and yes, slander or libel is actionable even when posted on a message board on the net. You have accused a respected member of this community of lying. You are under the burden of proof. The required level of proof is preponderance of evidence and you ahve yet to demonstrate that WizO_Paradox knew WotC woudl announce 4E at GenCon 2008 when he posted what he did about 4E. Yeah, ok. :rolleyes: ibid
Xyxox 08-16-07, 03:41 PM	I am aware of this. They get A LOT of grief over things they have no control over. WotC is to blame for much of it. Since those in charge at WotC are nearly impossible to reach, it falls on those that moderate the forums. Right or wrong (and most of the time it IS wrong), that's just the way things are and if I were in the Wizos' shoes, I'd not be happy with my "employer" for putting me in this type of situation, especially if I had made assurances two days ago that such a thing would not be happening soon. Thank you. This is an issue to take up with WotC an those who are casting aspersions on the WizOs (not you as you have shown) should redirect their anger there. I'll be glad when the 4E forums are opened up and people have a forum for wailing and gnashing their teeth at WotC over this. should clear things up a bunch.
Solaris 08-16-07, 03:44 PM	Actually, since you did not demonstrate they are actually paid employees (your word was "cash"), it is irrelevant. It's irrelevant anyway, isn't it? The guy who sweeps the floors is paid, but unqualified to speak about WotC's development or release schedules. For what it's worth, however, I do remember some WizO or another confirming that they are paid for their work.
Xyxox 08-16-07, 03:47 PM	It's irrelevant anyway, isn't it? The guy who sweeps the floors is paid, but unqualified to speak about WotC's development or release schedules. For what it's worth, however, I do remember some WizO or another confirming that they are paid for their work. True enough on the first point. The Janitor at WotC headquarters who is not privy to corporate secrets may still play D&D and may still ahve opinions wbout whther or not 4E would be released and woudl ahve as much right to that opinion as Wizo_Paradox did. So even if they are paid, the point is still irrelevent to the discussion. The only valid point is whther or not Wizo_Paradox knew 4E was going to be announced at Gencon when he made his statement regarding and that has yet to be demonstrated. Thus an accusaiton of him lying about it is unfounded.
pres_man 08-16-07, 04:04 PM	Right, he might not have lied, he might have just been wrong. That means his statements quoted earlier just show he was acting like a sarcastic :censored: . Suggesting someone is trolling because you are ignorant of the actual facts is pretty pathetic. I'll add this to the whole "Arrow through the Neck" thing, as another indication that listening to WizOs for any meaningful information is pretty worthless.
Solaris 08-16-07, 04:06 PM	So when it came to 4E, Wiz0_Paradox knew precisely as much as you or anybody else who posts on these boards and doesn't have WotC in front of their name. ... True enough on the first point. The Janitor at WotC headquarters who is not privy to corporate secrets may still play D&D and may still ahve opinions wbout whther or not 4E would be released and woudl ahve as much right to that opinion as Wizo_Paradox did. Paradox is an authority on the forums, and spoke in definite terms, so it's understandable that people were inclined to accept his word. The problem is that being an authority on the forums does not imply any knowledge of WotC's corporate roadmap. It's unreasonable to assume that Paradox would have been in the loop as regards game design simply because he moderates the community forums. I think it's far more likely (and much safer to assume) that Paradox was mistaken than that he was deliberately misleading anyone. And forum users were definitely mistaken in assuming that a statement from Paradox, no matter how confidently or authoritatively phrased, was in any way official.
Sim_antix 08-16-07, 04:14 PM	Whether through deception or ignorance a lie is a lie.
OravennasBrother 08-16-07, 04:22 PM	I think it's far more likely (and much safer to assume) that Paradox was mistaken than that he was deliberately misleading anyone. Actually I think it far more likely that he was misinformed by his WotC superiors who DID know when they intended to release 4th Edition. WotC developers have made (relatively recent) statements to the effect that 4th "was not" on the verge of release. They Lied, whether WizO_Paradox did or not. More to the point - Does it really matter? If you need fresh blood for your game, you'll be forced to go to 4th edition at some point. Until then you can continue to play 3.X - heck I never bought the 3.5 books, just the 3.0 core rules. Anyone who feels they spend too much on D&D should stick to the core books for any edition into which they buy.
pres_man 08-16-07, 04:22 PM	Whether through deception or ignorance a lie is a lie. No, to lie, one has to be intent on making a false statement. Think of it in game terms. If an NPC believes that a dragon lives in a cave, but no dragon really does, does the NPC have to roll a bluff when telling the PCs? No, he is stating what he believes is the truth, he just happens to be wrong. If I asked a small child what is 2+5 and they say 8, they aren't necessarily lying they may just be wrong.
Sim_antix 08-16-07, 04:25 PM	No, to lie, one has to be intent on making a false statement. Think of it in game terms. If an NPC believes that a dragon lives in a cave, but no dragon really does, does the NPC have to roll a bluff when telling the PCs? No, he is stating what he believes is the truth, he just happens to be wrong. If I asked a small child what is 2+5 and they say 8, they aren't necessarily lying they may just be wrong. Point conceded.
Xyxox 08-16-07, 04:37 PM	Whether through deception or ignorance a lie is a lie. Deception is a lie. Ignorance is to not be informed and thus, by definition, cannot be a lie. Lie implies malice of forethought, ergo, Wizo_Paradox did not lie and accusations that he lied are spurious at best and slander at worst.
Orayn, Elvish Blademaster 08-16-07, 04:38 PM	http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v190/mtgpicsebm/facepalm.jpg I'm with captain Picard on this one. Wizards is NOT betraying you. You do NOT need to throw away for 3.5E books. If you're happy with the game you're playing now, you don't HAVE to do anything. Unless you're some sort of conent-vampire that needs new 1st party books every few months for sustenance, there's MORE than enough 3.5E books to run any campaign you can imagine for YEARS to come, and any of them that you don't have yet will just get cheaper! This is not a funeral for 3rd Edition; 3rd Edition is having a baby, and will live on as long as players are still interested in it. For goodness sake, people still play 2nd Edition. Yes, there are fewer players now, but that's because many of them became interested in 3E and started to migrate. Wizards didn't shove it down their throats. Also, it's not like all the 2E books started to decay as soon as 3E was announced. They're harder to find now, but the ones you can find will be dirt cheap. TL;DR: You don't have to play 4E is you don't want to.
Xyxox 08-16-07, 04:40 PM	Are you always a jackass, or is today special? Emotional reactions were the order of teh day when 3E was announced. It's no different today. From the (unplanned I would surmise) "sneak peak" people got at the 4E forums last night, I would guess this thread will end up being moved into a forum that is specifically for the "world is ending" type posts.
JaniceWilson 08-16-07, 04:53 PM	If I don't like it, I wont play it. That's my oppinion on it. I play lots of RPGs that haven't had active support in years, and I enjoy each and every one of them. Hell, when was the last time a new WHFRP book came out? So if I don't like 4th ed, I'll just stick with 3.5 and be happy.
Orayn, Elvish Blademaster 08-16-07, 05:05 PM	If I don't like it, I wont play it. That's my oppinion on it. I play lots of RPGs that haven't had active support in years, and I enjoy each and every one of them. Hell, when was the last time a new WHFRP book came out? So if I don't like 4th ed, I'll just stick with 3.5 and be happy. 2005, actually. Go figure.
WizO_Brak 08-16-07, 05:28 PM	Merging topics of similar discussions. Keep on keepin' on. ~Brak
Deacon Liadon 08-16-07, 06:28 PM	2005, actually. Go figure. The last supliment was April I think.
WizO_Brak 08-16-07, 07:12 PM	4E is obviously a huge deal. Many of you are extremely passionate about it, for various reasons. We (WizO's and WotC) want these discussions to be as productive and meaningful as possible. As such, we're moving, locking, and moderating posts and threads as necessary to make this experience as streamlined and pleasant as possible. While I imagine that many of you will take exception to the actions of the moderators, please try and realize that we're doing our jobs as they are defined with the intention of allowing the discussion to be as coherent as possible. If you feel that the moderators are being too hasty, too lenient, too strict or too <insert complaint here>, please let us know in the proper complaint thread located here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=905845 While we may not see eye to eye on some of these actions, I ask that you at least accept our actions as what we have to do. Thread about the front page / 4dventure: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=906669 4E forums: http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=686 If you'd like another forum for this discussion to be added, please suggest it in: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=905845 ~Brak