Best 4 Character Party [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best 4 Character Party [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ian Demagi
08-27-06, 02:20 PM I wanted to get opinions on what the best 4 PC class party was using PHB & PHB 2 -no psionics. I keep coming back to the basic 4 four classes:Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, & Rogue although for a wilderness adventure Barbarian, Druid, Sorcerer, and Ranger was very strong.

When I write my adventures, I always test them against the basic 4 classes for play ability. What do you all think?

Ian
Zherog
08-27-06, 02:36 PM Four clerics, all with different domains. There really isn't much that can't be accomplished.
Comus
08-27-06, 03:08 PM Four clerics, all with different domains. There really isn't much that can't be accomplished.

Though, if you don't want to repeat classes, Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Sorc tends to work pretty well too.
Darkuwa
08-27-06, 05:42 PM Bard Barbarian druid sorceror
Giant Turtle
08-27-06, 08:05 PM Technically, adventures are supposed to be designed for a Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, Cleric group. But if you are looking for what would be most devastating against the module, I suggest Druid, Wizard, Cleric, Sorc.
Ezell Pike
08-27-06, 08:20 PM Four clerics, all with different domains. There really isn't much that can't be accomplished.

Dang, Zherog beat me to it. Oh well, he is a time zone ahead.:)
Board_Rider
08-27-06, 09:24 PM I think that in 3.5 muticlassing is the way to go except for arcane types (and event that is possible).
The best combo that I have personally seen
-----
1. Cleric
2. Wizard
3. Swashbuckler/Duskblade
4. Beguiler
AZNsupermarket
08-28-06, 12:31 AM 4 very optimized druids. :D
WizO_Cat
08-28-06, 12:34 AM Four clerics, all with different domains. There really isn't much that can't be accomplished.Meh, over-rated. They can't really disable devices, and really a log is a poor substitute.
greatamericanfolkhero
08-28-06, 01:39 AM There are four concepts that you need to cover so you arn't dragon food the second you setp out of the tavern: Healing, sneaking, casting, and fighting. What's nice in D&D is that with the right feats and skills, you can take just about any character and make them good at one of these things. Granted, some will be much better than others (If I've had my arm ripped off by a monster, I would much rather be helped by a Cleric casting a cure spell than a fighter with max ranks in the heal skill.)
Izodor_Shadowcaster
08-28-06, 04:09 AM Soulknife, Psion, Bard, Cleric
Steelwill
08-28-06, 09:27 AM Tough call, depends on the challenges the module presents as to which character classes will shine the most, but typically there is almost nothing that a standard fighter, wizard, rogue, and cleric group cannot overcome. However, more importantly even than the class composition is player capability. Good player's can make virtually anything work, and conversely poor player's can manage to make even a stacked party fail. My 2 cents.
Ian Demagi
08-28-06, 09:49 AM Izodor-did you read the post-no psionics-PHB & PHB2.

Steelwill, well said. Bad play can get the best party killed.

I created a matrix to try to predict how any party would fair against any obstacle. I have it in excel, It covers many areas of the game. You can plug in your party, and get an idea if they will be generally successful. If I knew how to link it, I would. Ian
OctoberRaven
08-28-06, 09:57 AM Black Mage, Red Mage, Fighter, White Ma-

Oh you meant in D&D.

Cleric, Fighter/Rogue, Wizard, Hexblade.

Or if you wanted to make the most powergamed group possible...

Ninja, Fighter, Warlock, Favored Soul.
Thwyvylyn
08-28-06, 11:18 AM If you do the 4 Cleric party in Eberron things get really nasty.

First Cleric gets War and Protection (the tank)

Second gets Commerce and Charm (the party face) (You could go with Travel and Trickery though)

Third gets Fire and Weather (the blaster)

Fourth gets Healing and Luck/Feast. (the healer/cleanser)

Now take the Spontaneous Domain casting alternate class feature from the PHB2 for all of them and voila!

Last bring a camera, the look on your DM's face when he sees this party will be priceless.

:D
Ian Demagi
08-28-06, 11:32 AM I wanted to get opinions on what the best 4 PC class party was using PHB & PHB 2 -no psionics. I keep coming back to the basic 4 four classes:Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, & Rogue although for a wilderness adventure Barbarian, Druid, Sorcerer, and Ranger was very strong.

When I write my adventures, I always test them against the basic 4 classes for play ability. What do you all think?

IanIn our group we ask potential players if they like Ebberon or psionics. If they answer yes, we tell them to keep moving.
zvbxrpl
08-28-06, 11:35 AM Our most successful party was a Bard, a Druid, a Fighter, and a Psion. However, since you're not using psionics, you should substitute a wizard, probably one specializing in evocation, as our psion served as a blaster.
Kevtar
08-28-06, 11:42 AM My sons and I want to start a campaign centered on the adventures of four Gnome bards. They will be a hearty troupe of troubadors hailing from the city of Lon - a city comprised primarily of humans with the 4-heroes being the only gnomes. Hence, they will be known as the "Lon Gnomes."

An all bard party would be fun, and for me, and all gnome bard party is even better.
SephDragoon
08-28-06, 11:51 AM In our group we ask potential players if they like Ebberon or psionics. If they answer yes, we tell them to keep moving.
That is rather harsh. What is your hatred against either of those? They aren't "traditional" D&D type things, or what?
Shriven
08-28-06, 12:00 PM That is rather harsh. What is your hatred against either of those? They aren't "traditional" D&D type things, or what?

Exactly. Ian Demagi, if you prefer players not to use Eberron or psionic material, fair enough. But rejecting players who like such material is a little bit elitist.

EDIT: On topic, I'd go with 2 Clerics, a Wizard and a Rogue. Clerics can tank, buff and heal, but I'd still prefer a Wizard for blasting/problem solving and a rogue for dealing with traps.

If there was some way of giving trapfinding to a cleric, drop the rogue. If you take the Magic and Spell domains and burn GP on wands/scrolls, you could probably drop the wizard.
zvbxrpl
08-28-06, 12:10 PM My sons and I want to start a campaign centered on the adventures of four Gnome bards. They will be a hearty troupe of troubadors hailing from the city of Lon - a city comprised primarily of humans with the 4-heroes being the only gnomes. Hence, they will be known as the "Lon Gnomes."

An all bard party would be fun, and for me, and all gnome bard party is even better.

The all bard thing sounds intriguing. Maybe have one focus on finessed swordplay, another on archery, a third on his magic and music, and a fourth on skills. I love gnomes, as well, so this sounds absolutely brilliant. As for the "Lon Gnomes" thing, it is a rare pun that makes me laugh rather than wince, and you, sir, have made one. Here, have a :cookie:
gotbrain
08-28-06, 12:13 PM Hmmm, it would be interesting to see some of the proposed 4 party parties fight each other to see who was truly the strongest. Of course fight other characters != fighting monsters/encounters but it would still settle a lot. :)
earthbound
08-28-06, 12:46 PM While maybe not THE strongest, I think the following would make a very solid party.

Elf Ranger-Party scout/ Ranged attacker
Elf Beguiler-Party face/Trapfinder/Enemy neutralizer(dazed,confused,etc)
Human Barbarian-Primary damage dealer/Clean-up for neutralized foes/Secondary trapspringer
Dwarf Cleric-Healer/Secondary damage dealer

While PHB elves would suffice if I wanted to test this group I would make them Gray-Elves from the MM
Chaotic_Lawful
08-28-06, 01:14 PM On a failed start at tackling some very difficult pre-written adventure a group of us managed to come up with a gang that all had darkvision and sneak skills. The party would have been highly optimized for the adventure, had it ever taken off. We were going to use SWAT tactics. :D

From this background we then started deciding on classes to suit our tactics. Clerics and rouges, IIRC.
IbanezNinja
08-28-06, 01:33 PM I think the strongest with only the PHB and PHBII is the Cleric, Wizard, Beguiler, Druid party. Druid in the fighter spot, Beguiler in the rogue spot.

Now over all I believe the Cleric, Druid, Artificer, Archivists would be the best due to the new faq ruling of artificers being able to scribe divine scrolls. So the Archivist would actually be up to the broken potential the character op boards have always talked about.

If there was some way of giving trapfinding to a cleric, drop the rogue. If you take the Magic and Spell domains and burn GP on wands/scrolls, you could probably drop the wizard.

Yeah, the Kobold domain in the web enhancement for the Races of Dragon gives out trapfinding.
Pyke_Moonshadow
08-28-06, 02:14 PM I would go with Fighter, Rogue, Sorcerer and Paladin.
RogerWilco
08-28-06, 02:37 PM Probably not the strongest party, but the party that gave us most fun was:
Paladin, Bard, Ranger, Druid
Ezell Pike
08-28-06, 07:50 PM Meh, over-rated. They can't really disable devices, and really a log is a poor substitute.

One type of encounter is no reason to drag in inferior classes.:P
SeptimusMagistos
08-28-06, 09:03 PM Arcane caster, divine caster, tank, scout.
Crystal Monk
08-28-06, 09:17 PM I know you said PHB and PHB2 only, but I have to contribute... my group (only two players and myself DMing) has finally gotten their four characters together. the group consists of a Swashbuckler, a Beguiler, a Favored Soul of Bahamut, and a Blue Mage (from these very boards).

what I find interesting is that they still managed to fill the standard class roles of fighter, rogue, cleric, and wizard.

what worries me is that they're a Swashbuckler, Beguiler, Favored Soul, and Blue Mage. gnomish blue mage. :gah:
OravennasBrother
08-29-06, 10:19 AM The best 4 character party is where all the players have similar gaming styles and create a group which works well together. I've seen a combination of Fighter, Rogue and Sorcerer which was FAR better than a five person group of Urban Ranger, Fighter, Wizard, Priest of Cuthbert, and Rogue. Because in the first group the Sorcerer worked WITH the fighter (Buffs) who worked with the Rogue for Flanking; but in the second the Priest of Cuthbert buffed himself, the Wizard used Direct Damage spells, and the RAnger was a "lone wolf" who would invariably create a "two pary" divided group [because her significant other ran the game she was unafraid of losing to enemies just because she was alone]
The first group was even better at HEALING each other using potions than the Priest of Cuthbert was ("It's more efficient to heal after the fight is finished than to waste time...." yeah sure)
Ian Demagi
08-29-06, 10:43 AM I agree, I ran a rogue who was TWF machine; the first thing the wizard did was turn me invisible with Greater Invisibility, before happily nuking the baddies. There were multiple handfuls of sneak attack damage. The cleric buffed the barbarian (Bull’s Strength, Bear’s Endurance), before casting his Juggernaut Combo (Divine Favor, Holy Power, and Righteous Might). Teamwork works!Ian.
thaylok
08-29-06, 11:56 AM Four clerics, all with different domains. There really isn't much that can't be accomplished.

My thoughts exactly... maybe if they all started out on the streets as little pick pockets... (1 level rogue).. and were converted... or serve other less benelovent powers....
Otto the Bugbear
08-29-06, 12:15 PM I think the strongest with only the PHB and PHBII is the Cleric, Wizard, Beguiler, Druid party. Druid in the fighter spot, Beguiler in the rogue spot.

This is the one. This takes top spot.
Pyke_Moonshadow
08-29-06, 12:47 PM ugh, I hate beguilers. And our DMs are much more restrictive on what druids can wildshape into.
Daiben
08-29-06, 12:56 PM All-spellcaster groups may well be extremely powerful in one off encounters, especially with the right preparation, but there are a large number of scenarios where they are at a big disadvantage especially in non-high level campaigns. The heavy reliance on spells can bite them during an extended scenario. In a well run campaign its near impossible to be rested and prepared before every encounter and over an extended scenario there are going to be many occasions where the spells are going to dry up. Also the relative ‘softness’ of the party overall means that in an ambush or mob rush the weaker spellcasters might be overwhelmed by melee characters long before they get a chance to prepare their defences or get their big spells off.

That’s not to say that spellcaster oriented groups aren’t powerful, its just that people judge a characters power far too much on how they perform vs other optimized characters in one on one duel situations. Groups should be judged more on how they perform in a wide range of conditions under the assumption that they are going to be in less than optimal condition/preparation for most encounters.

In saying that from my experience in both pen&paper and computer game versions, I’ve found that well balanced melee oriented groups tend to do well. I think a 4 man group consisting of a barbarian/rogue, duskblade, cleric, and a fighter/wizard/eldritch knight (assuming DMG is allowed) would do fairly well overall. Each character can take care of themselves in most situations and they would work well as a team supporting each other. While not exceptional powerful in a duel vs other optimized parties they would still be solid overall and far more adaptable especially at lower levels.
Kadasbrass
08-29-06, 01:13 PM Meh, over-rated. They can't really disable devices, and really a log is a poor substitute.

The Kobold Domain (RotD Web Ench 2) grants Trapfinding ability, and Search and Disable Device are now class skills.
Tolby
08-29-06, 01:48 PM The cleric with kobold domain is overrated. What happens cleric fails to find traps? His low reflex save and non-evasion means he takes the fireball to the face. Rogues excel at trapfinding not just because they can find/disable traps but because they can survive when they don't find traps.

If your starting out at levels 1 I would not sub the druid in for the fighter. Higher levels you can pull it off. But at level 1-8 you'll be wishing for the fighter.
SephDragoon
08-29-06, 01:57 PM This may be outside of the specs that he gave out, in fact, I am almost positive it is. But heck, there are so many examples, that a few non-related can't hurt.

Out current party in a steampunk styled campaign, complete with mechs and guns etc. Well, we have four party members:

Rogue/Fiend of Possession - Me, which ends up being quite fun for sneaking around. And yes, in case you are wondering, there are classes I leave out, since they aren't truely the important ones, and this goes for all our members.

Warmage/Technomancer - He is a Luitenant in the local army, specializing in mechs.

Psion/Pyromancer - Yes, we have two blaster, but she can be very very useful considering the type of world we are in.

Urban Ranger - In our other campaign, he was playing a druid, but in the new world, we thought he wouldn't quite fit in. He wanted to play a ranger instead, and I remembered this varient from a book once. Now he's playing that, and we are having a blast.

In my experience, we have more fun with strange and new characters than with the boring cliches.

So everyone knows by the way, we do not have clerics in our game, in fact, no healing magic at all. This definitely changed the dynamics, so this may not work so well in other campaigns.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer
08-29-06, 02:07 PM Meh, over-rated. They can't really disable devices, and really a log is a poor substitute.

You're Forgetting a Kobold Cleric With the Kobold Domain. They Get Trapfinding and Disable Device I believe. So yes, really, 4 clerics would be great.

Personally, I would Choose. Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Beguiler. :D
Chrono Nexus
08-30-06, 03:17 PM This is a group I just started, but it has alot of potential...
Warforged Cleric, Changeling Rogue, Poison Dusk Lizardfolk Barbarian, Human Wizard.
Kadasbrass
08-30-06, 07:20 PM The cleric with kobold domain is overrated. What happens cleric fails to find traps? His low reflex save and non-evasion means he takes the fireball to the face. Rogues excel at trapfinding not just because they can find/disable traps but because they can survive when they don't find traps.

I was merely pointing out that a cleric can now serve as a good trapfinder and disabler. However a cleric does have poor reflex saves. But a cleric is also able to better withstand the damage of a trap and thus has little need for a higher reflex or evasion in order to survive.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ian Demagi 08-27-06, 02:20 PM	I wanted to get opinions on what the best 4 PC class party was using PHB & PHB 2 -no psionics. I keep coming back to the basic 4 four classes:Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, & Rogue although for a wilderness adventure Barbarian, Druid, Sorcerer, and Ranger was very strong. When I write my adventures, I always test them against the basic 4 classes for play ability. What do you all think? Ian
Zherog 08-27-06, 02:36 PM	Four clerics, all with different domains. There really isn't much that can't be accomplished.
Comus 08-27-06, 03:08 PM	Four clerics, all with different domains. There really isn't much that can't be accomplished. Though, if you don't want to repeat classes, Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Sorc tends to work pretty well too.
Darkuwa 08-27-06, 05:42 PM	Bard Barbarian druid sorceror
Giant Turtle 08-27-06, 08:05 PM	Technically, adventures are supposed to be designed for a Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, Cleric group. But if you are looking for what would be most devastating against the module, I suggest Druid, Wizard, Cleric, Sorc.
Ezell Pike 08-27-06, 08:20 PM	Four clerics, all with different domains. There really isn't much that can't be accomplished. Dang, Zherog beat me to it. Oh well, he is a time zone ahead.:)
Board_Rider 08-27-06, 09:24 PM	I think that in 3.5 muticlassing is the way to go except for arcane types (and event that is possible). The best combo that I have personally seen ----- 1. Cleric 2. Wizard 3. Swashbuckler/Duskblade 4. Beguiler
AZNsupermarket 08-28-06, 12:31 AM	4 very optimized druids. :D
WizO_Cat 08-28-06, 12:34 AM	Four clerics, all with different domains. There really isn't much that can't be accomplished.Meh, over-rated. They can't really disable devices, and really a log is a poor substitute.
greatamericanfolkhero 08-28-06, 01:39 AM	There are four concepts that you need to cover so you arn't dragon food the second you setp out of the tavern: Healing, sneaking, casting, and fighting. What's nice in D&D is that with the right feats and skills, you can take just about any character and make them good at one of these things. Granted, some will be much better than others (If I've had my arm ripped off by a monster, I would much rather be helped by a Cleric casting a cure spell than a fighter with max ranks in the heal skill.)
Izodor_Shadowcaster 08-28-06, 04:09 AM	Soulknife, Psion, Bard, Cleric
Steelwill 08-28-06, 09:27 AM	Tough call, depends on the challenges the module presents as to which character classes will shine the most, but typically there is almost nothing that a standard fighter, wizard, rogue, and cleric group cannot overcome. However, more importantly even than the class composition is player capability. Good player's can make virtually anything work, and conversely poor player's can manage to make even a stacked party fail. My 2 cents.
Ian Demagi 08-28-06, 09:49 AM	Izodor-did you read the post-no psionics-PHB & PHB2. Steelwill, well said. Bad play can get the best party killed. I created a matrix to try to predict how any party would fair against any obstacle. I have it in excel, It covers many areas of the game. You can plug in your party, and get an idea if they will be generally successful. If I knew how to link it, I would. Ian
OctoberRaven 08-28-06, 09:57 AM	Black Mage, Red Mage, Fighter, White Ma- Oh you meant in D&D. Cleric, Fighter/Rogue, Wizard, Hexblade. Or if you wanted to make the most powergamed group possible... Ninja, Fighter, Warlock, Favored Soul.
Thwyvylyn 08-28-06, 11:18 AM	If you do the 4 Cleric party in Eberron things get really nasty. First Cleric gets War and Protection (the tank) Second gets Commerce and Charm (the party face) (You could go with Travel and Trickery though) Third gets Fire and Weather (the blaster) Fourth gets Healing and Luck/Feast. (the healer/cleanser) Now take the Spontaneous Domain casting alternate class feature from the PHB2 for all of them and voila! Last bring a camera, the look on your DM's face when he sees this party will be priceless. :D
Ian Demagi 08-28-06, 11:32 AM	I wanted to get opinions on what the best 4 PC class party was using PHB & PHB 2 -no psionics. I keep coming back to the basic 4 four classes:Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, & Rogue although for a wilderness adventure Barbarian, Druid, Sorcerer, and Ranger was very strong. When I write my adventures, I always test them against the basic 4 classes for play ability. What do you all think? IanIn our group we ask potential players if they like Ebberon or psionics. If they answer yes, we tell them to keep moving.
zvbxrpl 08-28-06, 11:35 AM	Our most successful party was a Bard, a Druid, a Fighter, and a Psion. However, since you're not using psionics, you should substitute a wizard, probably one specializing in evocation, as our psion served as a blaster.
Kevtar 08-28-06, 11:42 AM	My sons and I want to start a campaign centered on the adventures of four Gnome bards. They will be a hearty troupe of troubadors hailing from the city of Lon - a city comprised primarily of humans with the 4-heroes being the only gnomes. Hence, they will be known as the "Lon Gnomes." An all bard party would be fun, and for me, and all gnome bard party is even better.
SephDragoon 08-28-06, 11:51 AM	In our group we ask potential players if they like Ebberon or psionics. If they answer yes, we tell them to keep moving. That is rather harsh. What is your hatred against either of those? They aren't "traditional" D&D type things, or what?
Shriven 08-28-06, 12:00 PM	That is rather harsh. What is your hatred against either of those? They aren't "traditional" D&D type things, or what? Exactly. Ian Demagi, if you prefer players not to use Eberron or psionic material, fair enough. But rejecting players who like such material is a little bit elitist. EDIT: On topic, I'd go with 2 Clerics, a Wizard and a Rogue. Clerics can tank, buff and heal, but I'd still prefer a Wizard for blasting/problem solving and a rogue for dealing with traps. If there was some way of giving trapfinding to a cleric, drop the rogue. If you take the Magic and Spell domains and burn GP on wands/scrolls, you could probably drop the wizard.
zvbxrpl 08-28-06, 12:10 PM	My sons and I want to start a campaign centered on the adventures of four Gnome bards. They will be a hearty troupe of troubadors hailing from the city of Lon - a city comprised primarily of humans with the 4-heroes being the only gnomes. Hence, they will be known as the "Lon Gnomes." An all bard party would be fun, and for me, and all gnome bard party is even better. The all bard thing sounds intriguing. Maybe have one focus on finessed swordplay, another on archery, a third on his magic and music, and a fourth on skills. I love gnomes, as well, so this sounds absolutely brilliant. As for the "Lon Gnomes" thing, it is a rare pun that makes me laugh rather than wince, and you, sir, have made one. Here, have a :cookie:
gotbrain 08-28-06, 12:13 PM	Hmmm, it would be interesting to see some of the proposed 4 party parties fight each other to see who was truly the strongest. Of course fight other characters != fighting monsters/encounters but it would still settle a lot. :)
earthbound 08-28-06, 12:46 PM	While maybe not THE strongest, I think the following would make a very solid party. Elf Ranger-Party scout/ Ranged attacker Elf Beguiler-Party face/Trapfinder/Enemy neutralizer(dazed,confused,etc) Human Barbarian-Primary damage dealer/Clean-up for neutralized foes/Secondary trapspringer Dwarf Cleric-Healer/Secondary damage dealer While PHB elves would suffice if I wanted to test this group I would make them Gray-Elves from the MM
Chaotic_Lawful 08-28-06, 01:14 PM	On a failed start at tackling some very difficult pre-written adventure a group of us managed to come up with a gang that all had darkvision and sneak skills. The party would have been highly optimized for the adventure, had it ever taken off. We were going to use SWAT tactics. :D From this background we then started deciding on classes to suit our tactics. Clerics and rouges, IIRC.
IbanezNinja 08-28-06, 01:33 PM	I think the strongest with only the PHB and PHBII is the Cleric, Wizard, Beguiler, Druid party. Druid in the fighter spot, Beguiler in the rogue spot. Now over all I believe the Cleric, Druid, Artificer, Archivists would be the best due to the new faq ruling of artificers being able to scribe divine scrolls. So the Archivist would actually be up to the broken potential the character op boards have always talked about. If there was some way of giving trapfinding to a cleric, drop the rogue. If you take the Magic and Spell domains and burn GP on wands/scrolls, you could probably drop the wizard. Yeah, the Kobold domain in the web enhancement for the Races of Dragon gives out trapfinding.
Pyke_Moonshadow 08-28-06, 02:14 PM	I would go with Fighter, Rogue, Sorcerer and Paladin.
RogerWilco 08-28-06, 02:37 PM	Probably not the strongest party, but the party that gave us most fun was: Paladin, Bard, Ranger, Druid
Ezell Pike 08-28-06, 07:50 PM	Meh, over-rated. They can't really disable devices, and really a log is a poor substitute. One type of encounter is no reason to drag in inferior classes.:P
SeptimusMagistos 08-28-06, 09:03 PM	Arcane caster, divine caster, tank, scout.
Crystal Monk 08-28-06, 09:17 PM	I know you said PHB and PHB2 only, but I have to contribute... my group (only two players and myself DMing) has finally gotten their four characters together. the group consists of a Swashbuckler, a Beguiler, a Favored Soul of Bahamut, and a Blue Mage (from these very boards). what I find interesting is that they still managed to fill the standard class roles of fighter, rogue, cleric, and wizard. what worries me is that they're a Swashbuckler, Beguiler, Favored Soul, and Blue Mage. gnomish blue mage. :gah:
OravennasBrother 08-29-06, 10:19 AM	The best 4 character party is where all the players have similar gaming styles and create a group which works well together. I've seen a combination of Fighter, Rogue and Sorcerer which was FAR better than a five person group of Urban Ranger, Fighter, Wizard, Priest of Cuthbert, and Rogue. Because in the first group the Sorcerer worked WITH the fighter (Buffs) who worked with the Rogue for Flanking; but in the second the Priest of Cuthbert buffed himself, the Wizard used Direct Damage spells, and the RAnger was a "lone wolf" who would invariably create a "two pary" divided group [because her significant other ran the game she was unafraid of losing to enemies just because she was alone] The first group was even better at HEALING each other using potions than the Priest of Cuthbert was ("It's more efficient to heal after the fight is finished than to waste time...." yeah sure)
Ian Demagi 08-29-06, 10:43 AM	I agree, I ran a rogue who was TWF machine; the first thing the wizard did was turn me invisible with Greater Invisibility, before happily nuking the baddies. There were multiple handfuls of sneak attack damage. The cleric buffed the barbarian (Bull’s Strength, Bear’s Endurance), before casting his Juggernaut Combo (Divine Favor, Holy Power, and Righteous Might). Teamwork works!Ian.
thaylok 08-29-06, 11:56 AM	Four clerics, all with different domains. There really isn't much that can't be accomplished. My thoughts exactly... maybe if they all started out on the streets as little pick pockets... (1 level rogue).. and were converted... or serve other less benelovent powers....
Otto the Bugbear 08-29-06, 12:15 PM	I think the strongest with only the PHB and PHBII is the Cleric, Wizard, Beguiler, Druid party. Druid in the fighter spot, Beguiler in the rogue spot. This is the one. This takes top spot.
Pyke_Moonshadow 08-29-06, 12:47 PM	ugh, I hate beguilers. And our DMs are much more restrictive on what druids can wildshape into.
Daiben 08-29-06, 12:56 PM	All-spellcaster groups may well be extremely powerful in one off encounters, especially with the right preparation, but there are a large number of scenarios where they are at a big disadvantage especially in non-high level campaigns. The heavy reliance on spells can bite them during an extended scenario. In a well run campaign its near impossible to be rested and prepared before every encounter and over an extended scenario there are going to be many occasions where the spells are going to dry up. Also the relative ‘softness’ of the party overall means that in an ambush or mob rush the weaker spellcasters might be overwhelmed by melee characters long before they get a chance to prepare their defences or get their big spells off. That’s not to say that spellcaster oriented groups aren’t powerful, its just that people judge a characters power far too much on how they perform vs other optimized characters in one on one duel situations. Groups should be judged more on how they perform in a wide range of conditions under the assumption that they are going to be in less than optimal condition/preparation for most encounters. In saying that from my experience in both pen&paper and computer game versions, I’ve found that well balanced melee oriented groups tend to do well. I think a 4 man group consisting of a barbarian/rogue, duskblade, cleric, and a fighter/wizard/eldritch knight (assuming DMG is allowed) would do fairly well overall. Each character can take care of themselves in most situations and they would work well as a team supporting each other. While not exceptional powerful in a duel vs other optimized parties they would still be solid overall and far more adaptable especially at lower levels.
Kadasbrass 08-29-06, 01:13 PM	Meh, over-rated. They can't really disable devices, and really a log is a poor substitute. The Kobold Domain (RotD Web Ench 2) grants Trapfinding ability, and Search and Disable Device are now class skills.
Tolby 08-29-06, 01:48 PM	The cleric with kobold domain is overrated. What happens cleric fails to find traps? His low reflex save and non-evasion means he takes the fireball to the face. Rogues excel at trapfinding not just because they can find/disable traps but because they can survive when they don't find traps. If your starting out at levels 1 I would not sub the druid in for the fighter. Higher levels you can pull it off. But at level 1-8 you'll be wishing for the fighter.
SephDragoon 08-29-06, 01:57 PM	This may be outside of the specs that he gave out, in fact, I am almost positive it is. But heck, there are so many examples, that a few non-related can't hurt. Out current party in a steampunk styled campaign, complete with mechs and guns etc. Well, we have four party members: Rogue/Fiend of Possession - Me, which ends up being quite fun for sneaking around. And yes, in case you are wondering, there are classes I leave out, since they aren't truely the important ones, and this goes for all our members. Warmage/Technomancer - He is a Luitenant in the local army, specializing in mechs. Psion/Pyromancer - Yes, we have two blaster, but she can be very very useful considering the type of world we are in. Urban Ranger - In our other campaign, he was playing a druid, but in the new world, we thought he wouldn't quite fit in. He wanted to play a ranger instead, and I remembered this varient from a book once. Now he's playing that, and we are having a blast. In my experience, we have more fun with strange and new characters than with the boring cliches. So everyone knows by the way, we do not have clerics in our game, in fact, no healing magic at all. This definitely changed the dynamics, so this may not work so well in other campaigns.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 08-29-06, 02:07 PM	Meh, over-rated. They can't really disable devices, and really a log is a poor substitute. You're Forgetting a Kobold Cleric With the Kobold Domain. They Get Trapfinding and Disable Device I believe. So yes, really, 4 clerics would be great. Personally, I would Choose. Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Beguiler. :D
Chrono Nexus 08-30-06, 03:17 PM	This is a group I just started, but it has alot of potential... Warforged Cleric, Changeling Rogue, Poison Dusk Lizardfolk Barbarian, Human Wizard.
Kadasbrass 08-30-06, 07:20 PM	The cleric with kobold domain is overrated. What happens cleric fails to find traps? His low reflex save and non-evasion means he takes the fireball to the face. Rogues excel at trapfinding not just because they can find/disable traps but because they can survive when they don't find traps. I was merely pointing out that a cleric can now serve as a good trapfinder and disabler. However a cleric does have poor reflex saves. But a cleric is also able to better withstand the damage of a trap and thus has little need for a higher reflex or evasion in order to survive.