Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord_of_Rivendell 08-11-07, 04:27 PM	I have not been able to find a "Sorcerer's Handbook" nor a good discussion of what spells a sorcerer should consider taking. While I'm sure there have been many such discussion, I haven't figured out a good query to get me such a thread. I'd appreciate any thoughts on either what spells you think a sorcerer should take (I do realize that this may differe depending on your campaign or style, but I'd like to know) by level or where you've seen good discussions of this sort. Thanks, LoR
Rerecros 08-11-07, 04:53 PM	On selecting spells, compared to a wizard, you have firepower in exchange for versatility. Don't wast spells known on every evocation, a wizard can learn them all, and choose spells suited to the particular vulnerability of an enemy. A sorcerer however should take a spell that can damage just about anyone (force spells mostly), even though nothing is vulnerable to them. Illusions are the one of the great things about arcane magic, and most illusion spells are very versatile (shadow evocation/conjuration in particular), so the can make up for the lack of selection.
GaffeR 08-11-07, 04:53 PM	http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=571861 http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-183763
Lord_of_Rivendell 08-11-07, 05:29 PM	Thanks. Both posts were quite helpful. I did notice that the links, while VERY helpful, were also somewhat out of date. I guess that's inevitable. With luck, someone will have found other more recent links. LoR
LOSTHISMIND 08-11-07, 07:51 PM	In our group we do not have a Wizard. I am a Sorcerer and have geared toward combat casting. Below is a copy of my spell list and feats. Keep in mind that She is at 11th level and no cross classes. Personally I do not recommend cross classing with a Sorcerer. They get lass spells than a wiz. So the lost spells that would have come with the level advancement are lost on the new class. With Double Wand Wielder she can use 2 wands Bought /Found/Crafted at the same time with devastating effect. I try to have at least 2 preferably 3 major offensive spells that are not of the same type. It stinks going against a blue dragon with only Lightning, and no fire ball or scorch. ( Scorch is different than Scorching Ray) Draconic Polymorph is nice so you can take on the type of character that you are fighting to ignore or resist there energy weapon type. Also talk to your gaming group, and get there thoughts. It depends a lot on the niche or main position that your character fills. Also besides the Players hand book the Spell Compendium and Compete Arcane are excellent sources for spells. As you look through books keep a list of spells that you find interesting. Don’t for get to write down the book and page # and spell level. Look for spells that can work together, or stack for effectiveness. Double check with your DM about your understanding of the spells interactions before your final selection. Also make sure that there is not a more powerful level (Greater) of the same spell that you would rather have later. It is very costly for a Sorcerer to change a spell Spells 0: Detect Magic Read Magic Mending Mage Hand Acid Splash Caltrops Launch Item Detect Poison Message 1st Magic Missile Sleep Identify Shield Feather Fall 2nd Scorch 1d8 / level Spider Climb Combust Enlarge Person See Invisibility 3rd Fireball 1d6/ level Lightning Bolt 1d6/ level Dispel Magic Protection from Energy 4th Invisibility Greater Dalamar”s Lightning Lance 3D6+1D6/Level @10thLevel 2 lances @15th Level 3 lances Enerveation –1d4 negative Levels ranged touch attack 5th Draconic Polymorph Teleport FEATS Combat Casting Still Spell Two Weapon Fighting Craft Wand Double Wand Wielder
Gryllmyre 08-11-07, 08:13 PM	My personal favorites: 0: daze (only works on low level humanoids, but it's great at low levels) light detect magic (find those magic items!) read magic 1: Magic missile (always useful) Sleep (replace later, great for disabling many low level enemies) identify enlarge person protection from evil (prevents dominated friends from hurting you) grease (handier than you think, the initial Reflex save is wonderful against other casters) ray of enfeeblement (reduces their chances to hit and the damage they do, especially if you empower it!) 2: scorching ray (duh) glitterdust (blind! every hit from rogue is sneak attack) web (nice separator) mirror image (tank those attackers!) 3: fireball (duh) haste (meleers love you and it helps you get around) displacement (tank those attackers! works great on your meleers too) dispel magic (interrupt those spells!) 4: stoneskin (meleers love you, but costs gp) greater invisibility (rogues love you, every hit is sneak attack) wall of ice (nice temporary separator, or traps someone for a little while) minor globe of invulnerability (great against area spells) 5: break enchantment (unpetrify!) wall of stone (shapable barrier, great for reducing battle exposure) or wall of force (impenetrable) 6: disintegrate (duh) greater dispel (more useful past 12th for the extra modifier) mislead (I like to cast this then either move myself or the illusion to another location) I find that I tend to Empower the lower level damaging spells (magic missile, scorching ray, fireball) than use the higher level ones (ice storm, cone of cold, chain lightning), so I don't place high priority on them, yet. Then again, I have yet to play a sorceror past level 13.
Crimson_Concerto 08-12-07, 01:36 PM	As a general suggestion, because your spells known are limited, it's usually a good idea to pick spells with lots of different uses in one. Examples of this include Telekinesis (can perform multiple different objectives), Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation (effectively adds multiple lower level spells to your list), Summoning Monster X (can conjure up a tank, sneak, blaster, healer, etc.), Glitterdust, Shatter, and so one... Also, try not to pick up multiple spells that do the same thing. For example, there's no reason to know more than one summoning spell, and it's kind of a waste to know Cone of Cold, Fireball, and Lightening Bolt since they all accomplish the exact same thing.
Lord_of_Rivendell 08-12-07, 08:07 PM	These are just excellent suggestions so far. Thanks so much. I also appreciated seeing the feats. I'm going to by the Spell Compendium, because I suspect there are some excellent spells in there to boot. As I develop my own list, I'll add it along the thread. LoR
LOSTHISMIND 08-12-07, 09:48 PM	Also, try not to pick up multiple spells that do the same thing. For example, there's no reason to know more than one summoning spell, and it's kind of a waste to know Cone of Cold, Fireball, and Lightening Bolt since they all accomplish the exact same thing. Crimson Concerto Has an excellent suggestion an using spells with different functions. Be creative in the way you use them. Think outside the box. But I disagree with the statement that “and it's kind of a waste to know Cone of Cold, Fireball, and Lightening Bolt since they all accomplish the exact same thing.” True the damage count is the same 1d6/level. But the way that they attack is different. One is a blast radius, the other a straight line and the third a combo of the two. If the combatants are clustered together than a fire ball is great. If you are able to get in some resemblance of a line then Lighting Bolt is great for that. Fire Ball is dangers if your fighter is surrounded by a number of eminaes. As I mentioned earlier, I personally do not like having only 1 main combat spell. Example. When I only had Lighting Bolt, our DM had us in a dungeon which was infested with Kuo-Toa who are resistant to electricity which greatly limited my effectives in the campaign. I am sure there no other DM’s out there that would ever do something like that to there players. ;) . If you only have Fire Ball and are facing a Red Dragon, do you just Magic Missile him to death. Only if you were lucky. But more likely you will be dead long before that. Are you the only Mage in the group? If not, does the other mage have a school focus? That also has an effect on spell selection. Just my feelings though.
Arcane Guyver 08-12-07, 11:03 PM	But I disagree with the statement that “and it's kind of a waste to know Cone of Cold, Fireball, and Lightening Bolt since they all accomplish the exact same thing.” True the damage count is the same 1d6/level. But the way that they attack is different. One is a blast radius, the other a straight line and the third a combo of the two. True, but a sorcerer could (and probably should) take the 'Sculpt Spell' metamagic feat from Complete Arcane.
LOSTHISMIND 08-13-07, 12:09 AM	True then you can go with two opposites like Fire Ball and Cone of Cold and be pretty well off.
VulcanStormwrath 08-13-07, 03:38 AM	Telekinesis. Move injured allies to safety, hammer foes, boost ally to high point for attack, become ranged specialist with EVERY FALLEN WEAPON ON THE BATTLE FIELD AT ONCE!!! Polymorph any object. Turn Pebble to Adamantine Greatsword,a dash of keen edge, a drop of Greater Magic weapon, Polymorph your cloth robes to chainmail and follow up with......... Chasing Perfection, Iron Body and......Tenser's Transformation! When you're limited pick the fun stuff that benefits from imagination.
Lord_of_Rivendell 08-14-07, 11:18 AM	I noticed on the Wizards website an excellent spell called Disarm (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20041020a) that I'm considering. As a 1st level spell this could be very helpful. LoR
gullas 08-14-07, 12:11 PM	magic missile and fireball , classic
Lord_of_Rivendell 08-18-07, 09:54 PM	Is there really no Sorcerer's Handbook? Do others have good links or thoughts on the best spells for a sorcerer to take? LoR
Lord_of_Rivendell 08-29-07, 11:04 PM	Just thought I'd draw to your attention a first level spell that seems BROKEN. Power Word Pain from Races of the dragon is some serious pain, especially at lower levels. Any other thoughts on good spells is much appreciated. LoR
Disciple_of_Salsa 08-30-07, 01:56 AM	One of a sorcerer's best options is to take metamagic specialist (PHB2) and one of those "change energy type" feats from Complete Arcane or the Archmage PrC. Now fireball, usually pulled down by monster's common resistance, becomes an versatile combat tool. Scorching Ray can also deal lots of damage to single targets. Anyway, the point of the sorcerer is to deal massive arcane damage. Don't waste spells known on tactical spells, unless they're really useful like fly or invisibility.
BilopTheFleshwarper 08-30-07, 04:19 AM	Crimson_Concerto beat me to it, versitility is the key. Spells with multiple uses and large area effects are usually very helpful. at low levels things like color spray can be obscenely useful. at higher levels the shadow conjuration and shadow evocation spells are good, as long as you're not fighting something with a high will save. also you may want to think about what your role is in the group. controller, DPS, utility, protection, battlefield modifier... staple spells like fireball and magic missle are awesome, but unusual spells like defenestrating sphere, may fit a theme better for your character.
TwistedFate 08-30-07, 08:05 AM	Is there really no Sorcerer's Handbook? LoR Tome and Blood. It's not technically a "Sorcerer's Handbook", but it does deal specifically with Sorcerers and Wizards.
Johnny_Angel 08-30-07, 09:40 AM	Haste is always good Magic Missile is always good Greater Invisibility is usually a nice spell to have
Lord_of_Rivendell 08-31-07, 07:43 PM	Tome and Blood. It's not technically a "Sorcerer's Handbook", but it does deal specifically with Sorcerers and Wizards. Thanks. I should have been a little more specific, as I wasn't thinking TaB about the published books. Rather, I was looking for a "Sorcer's Handbook" created on message boards somewhere, like the ones for Wizards and Druids that appear here on the WOTC boards. Nonetheless, I appreciate the suggestion. LoR
VulcanStormwrath 08-31-07, 08:01 PM	If you look in Complete Mage, there are 2 different spells that allow you to cast any 2 spells you know in your chosen order, at the same time using a single spell slot. They list sorceror only as a component. Allows for a few truly ruthless combos Hold Person/Summon Monster Energy Vulnerability/Fireball
Crimson_Concerto 09-02-07, 10:31 PM	Anyway, the point of the sorcerer is to deal massive arcane damage. Don't waste spells known on tactical spells, unless they're really useful like fly or invisibility.I'm sorry, but I have to call BS. Sorcerer's may not be as versatile in spells known as Wizards, but they are by NO means meant to be as narrow in use as Warmages. Having too many damage spells is a complete waste of spells known. At that point, you're a glorified archer. :smirk:
Optimator 09-02-07, 11:37 PM	Limited Wish comes to mind... Check out "Being Batman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500)" by LogicNinja, look at his favorite spells, and choose from there.
Optimator 09-02-07, 11:38 PM	As far as blasting goes, I have a deep affection for Frostfell from the Frostburn book.
fishfinger 09-03-07, 06:21 AM	heres one i made up i'm sure its been made a while ago Socks to Snakes transfigureation caster level 4 material componants: v,s,m ranger: 100ft + 10ft per level target: area 15ft + 5ft per 2 levels duration: 1 mins per level this spells turns the targets socks into snakes the opening in the socks become the snakes mouths and can bite as a free action. biting requires a fort save of 16 or take 1d6 dex damage + 1 per caster level or + 1d6 per two caster levels great for evil people who are running away from a mass of town guard cast it on the middle of them they all fall to the ground trying to get thier socks off, snakes get a surprise round and then bite on your turn you roll bite damage 1d4 and posion damage being the caster, snakes cannot be removed untill spell ends or is dispeled by via magic or caster hope you like it :D
setekh 09-03-07, 07:58 AM	True then you can go with two opposites like Fire Ball and Cone of Cold and be pretty well off. Or take Energy Substitution from Deities and Demigods. Boom, problem with energy immunity solved. (I quite like Sonic, There is very little as far as I can find that resists it)
Lord_of_Rivendell 09-09-07, 09:15 PM	Anyway, the point of the sorcerer is to deal massive arcane damage. Don't waste spells known on tactical spells, unless they're really useful like fly or invisibility. I know that someone has already commented on this point, but I'd like to add that one of the benefits of being a sorcerer is being able is actually being able to pick spells that you can use over and over. It seems to me that taking more than one or two massive damage spells per level is actually a waste. As indicated above, the energy substitution and sculpt spell feats can make a wizard quite versitile. My inclination is to take at most an area effect spell and a single target spell. Then I look for utility spells (buffs, save me, solve problem spells). LoR
CCS 09-10-07, 07:17 AM	I'm sorry, your question, as posed, simply doesn't have a good answer IMO. Why? Because you haven't told me what YOU want to accomplish sorcery wise. Do you want to simply deal heaps of damage? Do you want to cast some pretty cool spells, not neccecarily just the damage dealing ones? Are you actually going to do any RP? Or is the tone of your game mostly deal damage/gain XP/level up/cast even more damaging spells? I ask because the answer I'd give varies & depends alot upon those answers. Anyways, I made great use of Darkway, Benign & Bailfull transpositions, mage armour, and magic missle during our last session. Play was a bit combat heavy this time & I had to make good use of what generally serves more RP/cool effect/utility functions. These spells (plus a light warhorse) helped me personally account for 9(!) enemies. Only the elven archer beat me kill wise. AND most of those spells aided fellow party members at the same time! They also contributed to my actions being arguably the most memorable & entertaining ones of the evening..... Total damage dealt directly via my spells? 11 pts.
Ecalsneerg 09-10-07, 12:06 PM	Telekinesis. Move injured allies to safety, hammer foes, boost ally to high point for attack, become ranged specialist with EVERY FALLEN WEAPON ON THE BATTLE FIELD AT ONCE!!! Polymorph any object. Turn Pebble to Adamantine Greatsword,a dash of keen edge, a drop of Greater Magic weapon, Polymorph your cloth robes to chainmail and follow up with......... Chasing Perfection, Iron Body and......Tenser's Transformation! When you're limited pick the fun stuff that benefits from imagination. Not to rain on the badassness, but you can't do Iron Body and Transformation. Iron Body stops you drinking potions, having no innards which aren't solid iron. Transformation needs you to drink a bull's strength potion as the material component.
Lord_of_Rivendell 09-15-07, 04:46 PM	I'm sorry, your question, as posed, simply doesn't have a good answer IMO. Why? Because you haven't told me what YOU want to accomplish sorcery wise. Do you want to simply deal heaps of damage? Do you want to cast some pretty cool spells, not neccecarily just the damage dealing ones? Are you actually going to do any RP? Or is the tone of your game mostly deal damage/gain XP/level up/cast even more damaging spells? I ask because the answer I'd give varies & depends alot upon those answers. I didn't mean the question to be vexing and I do appreciate the criticism you've raised here. I was actually trying to figure out how I'd like to play the character. I thought knowing more about people's spell lists or the existance of a handbook might help me with that. I've actually gotten a great deal from some of the links people have sent. and continue to hope that others will share their ideas, builds they liked, were effective, were fun, etc. LoR
LSilvertongue 09-15-07, 06:25 PM	I think a key aspect to sorcerers is the feats and stats that tend to lead to the spell choice. I'd reccomend some enchatment spells that play on Sorcerers natural charisma. Also Repelling Shielf from Complete Mage could prove handy.