Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DemonOSU 11-18-06, 04:59 PM	So, we have this team member in our D&D game. Every single game I play with him, no matter what the character, he is a loot hog. He tries to loot in the middle of fights and then, if possible, steals whatever he can. While I don't mind someone playing an evil greedy character, this gets annoying seeing as how everyone else tends to want to get along and play the game together, but he's ruining it for people who are tired of losing rewards because he's a jerk with a huge bluff skill, though we recently stopped allowing "called shots" on players with skills (using bluff to make a character believe something outrageous, though they could still use bluff to feint, ect.) In the most recent game we exited a sheer sided road (it was a secret passage out of the back of a city), and entered a valley. The valley had a Giant on one end and various caves along the sides. They were all rather easily dispatched, however, then, from one of the caves, came a Mindflayer with Psion levels who summoned a level 9 Anstral Construct. Long story short, we were dropping like flies. I managed to use an energy wall to keep the Flayer secluded to his cave while we shot ranged attacks at him (giving him cover but protecting us) while also trying to do my best to keep the construct from destroying us. A few rounds in we caused the Flayer to flee through a portal and then proceeded to run from the construct back up the pass we had entered from. I left my Psicrystal at the beginning of the pass to scout to let me know when the construct left and stayed within one move action of being outside the pass. During this time, the Beguiler claims it was possible for him to invis, walk around, loot the Giant, reinvis, then wait for the construct to disappear, loot the remaining stuff as well as the items from our fallen comrade. Though the comrade was more of his ally than ours so no one really minded that. But he claims it was possible for him to take 20 to hide the things he got from the giant among his other things and that we wouldn't find it short of digging through his stuff. he tends to be the type that knows almost all of the rules and uses it to his advantage, including twisting things to his advantage. But I argued that we were still in combat when he looted the giant, and reappeared to do so, and would have noticed him rifling through his things. I also argued that we were not stupid and not far enough away for an 7strength beguiler to loot a Giant AND a Goliath's (the dead PC) belongings and somehow manage to hide them, let alone take 20. He pointed out that his followers from leadership were there and could have done it for him, but that made little sense since his followers were standing up in the pass where I was, nevermind my Psicrystal scouting the area for our safe return (one ally was merely unconscious and I had placed the psicrystal there so I'd know when I could get to him as quickly as possible). Anyhow, any suggestions for how to deal with this greedy character in game without anymore whining? I don't mind him playing his character, but the constant pitifule excuses to how he can do things are annoying, and he knows enough about the game that we HAVE to look things up if we want to contradict him. The only thing I can think of is to kill him, which my CN character would likely do if he caught someone stealing from him. But then he'd just come back with a new race, new class, same attitude but with a grudge.
Sim_antix 11-18-06, 05:07 PM	Let the party do what they want to do with the thief. It is a very serious offense to steal from your fellow party members and if they wish to turn you over to the authorities or dish out some vigilante justice you should let them.
dmjacques 11-18-06, 05:09 PM	simple, make a very and I meen very large coverd pit( make it impossible to find) put a huge as hell treasure in plain veiw near pit, and in the hidden pit put a very big monster( probly a kraken) and make a trap door for the other pcs to fal lthrough when thief dud is in pit and the other pcs are stuck in a whole different room wiating for there comrade to die( i love being horribly sadistic) ( to bad today is not one of my days):D
Comus 11-18-06, 05:26 PM	... because he's a jerk with a huge bluff skill, though we recently stopped allowing "called shots" on players with skills (using bluff to make a character believe something outrageous, though they could still use bluff to feint, ect.)... Those skills don't work on PCs. At all. Ever. Anyhow, any suggestions for how to deal with this greedy character in game without anymore whining? I don't mind him playing his character, but the constant pitifule excuses to how he can do things are annoying, and he knows enough about the game that we HAVE to look things up if we want to contradict him. The only thing I can think of is to kill him, which my CN character would likely do if he caught someone stealing from him. But then he'd just come back with a new race, new class, same attitude but with a grudge. Do to his character exactly what you'd do to an NPC who was trying this stuff - kill it. If the next one tries anything, kill that one too.
Tempest Stormwind 11-18-06, 05:35 PM	Simple enough: Don't play with a*sholes. I have played in one group with an a*shole player. In that one, and that one alone, has in-party fighting and stealing been a problem. In all my other parties, none of which have had a*sholes in them (apart from the DMs in most of those cases, but that's beside the point), this has never once been a problem for me. I wonder why.
caeruleus 11-18-06, 05:43 PM	Every single game I play with him, no matter what the character, he is a loot hog. Sounds like someone I used to play with. Anyhow, any suggestions for how to deal with this greedy character in game without anymore whining? Note that I said I used to play with such a person. Stop playing with him. If he doesn't care about whether the other players have fun, you shouldn't care whether he does.
philnicau 11-18-06, 06:09 PM	The solution to this kind of player is simple, tell him the next time he steals from the party a lightning bolt will hit his character killing him instantly, after that his next character must be of good alignment and cannot be a rogue or similar. If he objects then tell him "Don't let the door hit you in the Arse on the Way Out! "
makeshiftwings 11-18-06, 06:18 PM	The best way is to tell the player to his face "Stop stealing from the party, or you're not playing with us anymore. You're ruining the game." Anything else is just passive agressive and doomed to cause more trouble than it's worth.
Solaris 11-18-06, 06:19 PM	Simple enough: Don't play with a*sholes. I came here to say the same thing.
fatal error 11-18-06, 07:11 PM	Just tell him, out of character, out of game, that he is very frustrating to play with. If he does not stop acting in such a frustrating manner, then majority rules. He can either start playing like a team player, or at least a non-irritating player, or he can leave and find some other game to annoy people in. Make sure you have the group's "leader" on your side (this is commonly the DM of the game, but on occasion it is another player), so that it doesn't become a you vs. him argument but rather a group vs. one ultimatum.
Seeker95 11-18-06, 07:45 PM	Anyhow, any suggestions for how to deal with this greedy character in game without anymore whining?Out of character, and out of game, just say no. As DM, say that you do not allow inter-party theft or killing. This is a social game, and it's not allowed, any more than stealing the ball from your own team mate is allowed in basketball. If the player insists, then kill the PC. If the player still insists, then kick the player out of the group. (I made the mistake of answering before reading everything else. Looks like I am not the first to suggest this line of action.)
kelvinaw273 11-18-06, 07:52 PM	So, we have this team member in our D&D game. Every single game I play with him, no matter what the character, he is a loot hog. He tries to loot in the middle of fights and then, if possible, steals whatever he can. While I don't mind someone playing an evil greedy character, this gets annoying seeing as how everyone else tends to want to get along and play the game together, but he's ruining it for people who are tired of losing rewards because he's a jerk with a huge bluff skill, though we recently stopped allowing "called shots" on players with skills (using bluff to make a character believe something outrageous, though they could still use bluff to feint, ect.) The rules catagorically state that this cannot be done on other PCs. he tends to be the type that knows almost all of the rules and uses it to his advantage, including twisting things to his advantage. But I argued that we were still in combat when he looted the giant, and reappeared to do so, and would have noticed him rifling through his things. I also argued that we were not stupid and not far enough away for an 7strength beguiler to loot a Giant AND a Goliath's (the dead PC) belongings and somehow manage to hide them, let alone take 20. He pointed out that his followers from leadership were there and could have done it for him, but that made little sense since his followers were standing up in the pass where I was, nevermind my Psicrystal scouting the area for our safe return (one ally was merely unconscious and I had placed the psicrystal there so I'd know when I could get to him as quickly as possible). Yet he missed the bit about Bluff effects not being valid on PC's? He cannot know the rules that well - or else he is cheating, and he knows it. Anyhow, any suggestions for how to deal with this greedy character in game without anymore whining? I don't mind him playing his character, but the constant pitifule excuses to how he can do things are annoying, and he knows enough about the game that we HAVE to look things up if we want to contradict him. The only thing I can think of is to kill him, which my CN character would likely do if he caught someone stealing from him. But then he'd just come back with a new race, new class, same attitude but with a grudge. He's a rubbish role player with a bad attitude. The problem is not the character, it is the player. Tell him to stop, and stop now, and that you will tolerate no more of this. He isn't just 'acting in character' and 'bending the rules' he is outright cheating, and he probably knows it. Talk to your fellow players, draw up an ultimatum and stick to it. Don't make it an argument, don't make it a rules point, just say "Your attitude is depriving us of our just rewards, you are breaking the rules to do it when it suits you and spoiling th egame for us. We don't care what your justification is, we aren't having fun because of you. Stop, or leave."
Sim_antix 11-18-06, 09:27 PM	Out of character, and out of game, just say no. As DM, say that you do not allow inter-party theft or killing. This is a social game, and it's not allowed, any more than stealing the ball from your own team mate is allowed in basketball. The problem is that there are no rules that say that you can't steal from your party and for the record there are no rules that say you can't steal the ball from your teammate in basketball either. There will and should be repercussions for these actions though.
Solaris 11-18-06, 09:51 PM	Still, there's nothing wrong with getting an agreement ahead of time about some guidelines for what kind of party will be played.
The Club 11-19-06, 12:52 AM	Some players like to take advantage of the presumption that the characters will all stay together because the players are all sitting at the same table. When you're marching into incredible danger with a small group of allies, you have to be able to trust them. Someone who will lie to you and steal from you will also abandon you when things get dangerous. In character, I don't see how a group of adventurers could plausibly allow a thief to remain in their midst like that. When dealing with players who do things like this, I've often had my character simply refuse to work with the offending characters anymore. I've had DM's kind of raise an eyebrow, but I've insisted that my character is standing by his words. No trust, no partnership. Sometimes the in-game thing works and gets the message out, without even disrupting continuity. The Club
Seeker95 11-19-06, 08:55 AM	The problem is that there are no rules that say that you can't steal from your partyYes there are. I just don't need Wizards of the Coast to spell it out for me. The purpose of the game is to have fun. If you-as-a-player are preventing that, then you-as-a-player are breaking the rules. Step one spells it out for you. Step two is an in-game consequence. Step three is the out-of-game consequence. Them's the rules.
Sim_antix 11-19-06, 09:27 AM	Sometimes a character might have to steal from another character in order to advance the story or remain in character and there really is nothing in the rules preventing this. That being said in the case of a character who continually steals from the rest of the party, let the party deal with it. They will come up with something and if not then their characters are too weak willed or are otherwise unable to stop their erst wile companion. In Game solutions for In Game problems.
Seeker95 11-19-06, 11:35 AM	In Game solutions for In Game problems.If this were an in-game problem, then it would require an in-game solution. An in-game problem would be that the party cannot figure out the answer to a riddle, or cannot defeat the mad overlord, or a PC was bitten by a vampire or wererat. These problems require in-game solutions. An asshat player is on out-of-game problem. The problem is that *the players* are not having fun. It requries an out-of-game solution.
Sim_antix 11-19-06, 02:56 PM	A character stealing from the party sounds In Game to me...
makeshiftwings 11-19-06, 04:51 PM	Technically, there's no rule in the PHB that says I'm not allowed to pee on the other players and set their furniture on fire during the game. I'm pretty sure I'd be able to find a group that would let me pee on them for at least four or five months while they hopelessly tried to get advice on these boards about how they could punish my character for it.
pukunui 11-19-06, 05:06 PM	DemonOSU - Does the disruptive player always play thief types? Or does he play non-roguish characters who are all equally greedy? I'm just asking because the DMG2 suggests that often in-party stealing is caused when the DM doesn't give the person playing the sneaky thief type enough in-game opportunities to use his/her skills and abilities. I'm not sure that this is applicable to your scenario, but before you try anything drastic like asking the player to leave, why don't you approach your DM privately and discuss with him/her the possibility of writing in more opportunities for the disruptive player to steal from NPCs and the like rather than from the other PCs. It's entirely possible that the player himself is just too greedy (read: selfish), but I think it's worth a try. I know that this is the case for me -- I'm currently playing a rogue in a game being DMed by my sister-in-law. She's a total newb and has hardly given me anything for my character to do (it's been very much a hack 'n' slasher so far ... not much fun for a halfling rogue), so I'm actually getting pretty bored. I'm not going to have her steal from the party, but she isn't planning on sharing her loot with the others. She's also decided to stop being the party scout because we've been doing a lot of dungeons, and she can't see in the dark, so the elf ranger gets to lead the way and trigger any traps he might find (this has already happened once - the rest of the party fell into a pit trap but my rogue managed to avoid it).
Aeolus91 11-19-06, 05:56 PM	There is an item in Ultimate Equipment Guide called Traitor's Dust... you sprinkle it on your stuff and for the next however long, anyone who touches that object gets dyed a bright blue, and the dye can only be removed by powerful magic (i.e wish). Have every party memeber put it on his stuff at night without telling the offending player, and then have him get caught... blue-handed. That or just kill him. Just out of nowhere say "I shoot him in the head from 5 feet away." If the player actually has the nerve to ask you what in game reason you had to kill him, just smile and say "I don't like you very much."l Rawr! :dragon:
Seeker95 11-19-06, 06:48 PM	A character stealing from the party sounds In Game to me...Not when it causes out-of-game problems. The problem is not that the rogue steals from the paladin. The problem is that Jeff is having his rogue steal from David's paladin. If Jeff knows it pisses David off, and still does it, then it is an out-of-game problem. I've seen you argue intelligently in other threads. Would you at least acknowledge that you see and understand the difference here?
Solaris 11-19-06, 07:11 PM	The problem is not that the rogue steals from the paladin. The problem is that Jeff is having his rogue steal from David's paladin. If Jeff knows it pisses David off, and still does it, then it is an out-of-game problem.I agree completely. I agreed with your earlier post too, except for the second step of killing the PC. I'd just handle it out of game. "Look, Jeff, you're going to have to stop being a jerk. Play a character that gets along with the party, or don't play."
Sim_antix 11-19-06, 07:15 PM	Not when it causes out-of-game problems. The problem is not that the rogue steals from the paladin. The problem is that Jeff is having his rogue steal from David's paladin. If Jeff knows it pisses David off, and still does it, then it is an out-of-game problem. I've seen you argue intelligently in other threads. Would you at least acknowledge that you see and understand the difference here? Yes and No. There is no reason that this couldn't be solved in game. He will be the one not having much fun as his character sits in jail or gets all of his possessions confiscated by his former allies and left on the side of the road. It is the roleplaying way of handeling it. That being said it helps to communicate what is and isn't acceptable behavior for your group whenever you have someone new join (and if you have an established group and these things haven't been discussed then GO DO IT NOW!)
epifreak 11-19-06, 07:21 PM	Okay, so I'm assuming you're not the DM, based on the wording of your post. As such, my reccomendation would be to have 2 meetings. The first, with everyone but the troublemaker (DM included), where you verify that everyone is indeed irritated by this; you can then decide on a course of action. The second meeting should involve everyone, including the troublesome player. In this, you explain in no uncertain terms that, while his rogue may technically be able to get away with such behavior, it is ruining the experience for everyone else and that if he wants to continue playing in the game, he should begin acting like a team player. Oh, and while most social skills are outlined to not work on PCs, bluff is the exception. You can't apply diplomacy or intimidate (combat mechanic excluded) to PCs, but bluff is allowed. Otherwise there would be no other way to handle secretive characters not feeding the party every bit of information they get. If your DM refuses to step in, I suppose your best course of action would be to simply begin pumping sense motive, spot and any other applicable skills and wait for him to slip up. Once you do, don't react immediately, IC call a conference with the other PCs while he's asleep. Tell them what you saw, have the party beat tank pin the guy, then run a quick little search through his gear. When you inevitably find the stolen goods in his footlocker/backpack/whatever he's carrying it in, then's when you make with the vigilante justice.
dalamb 11-19-06, 07:36 PM	The problem is that there are no rules that say that you can't steal from your partyThere are two kinds of 'rules' in most groups I've seen -- the ones in the books, to which you refer, and the "understanding of the group" about what kinds of uses of those rules are permissible. I've been in groups where, in-game, the party strip-searched the hobbit thief frequently. I've known of other groups where there was an out-of-game rule "don't make a character that annoys the other players", which would have forbidden the sort of character you mentioned elsewhere who "had to steal from the party to stay in character". If the original poster wants to stay in-game, the party (besides the thief) has to find in-game reasons to detect what the thief is doing (start by banning the bogus use of Bluff; does the dude have a bag of holding for what he rips off, or do his robes develop suspicious distortions after one of his light-fingered episodes?), then take whatever measures their characters deem appropriate. I'd hope they have somebody who worships a deity of vengeance in this case. But there's no good reason to preclude an out-of-game solution, which several others have proposed, and which is what I'd prefer personally.
dalamb 11-19-06, 07:37 PM	Oh, and while most social skills are outlined to not work on PCs, bluff is the exception. You can't apply diplomacy or intimidate (combat mechanic excluded) to PCs, but bluff is allowed.Where is this written down? It's a surprise to me, and would enrage some players I know.
pukunui 11-19-06, 07:56 PM	Where is this written down? It's a surprise to me, and would enrage some players I know. Sense Motive (Wis) Check A successful check lets you avoid being bluffed. Try Again No, though you may make a Sense Motive check for each Bluff check made against you. The above says to me that Bluff can be used against PCs ... The reason that neither Intimidate nor Diplomacy can be used against PCs is because they involve actively changing a character's behavior, which for PCs is entirely under the control of the players ... however, Bluff is used to withhold information, lie, or feint in combat ... all of which actions should be viable for use against PCs. Imagine how boring it would be if the PCs automatically saw through every lie an NPC told them and knew instantaneously that an NPC was only pretending to attack them.
lordalm 11-19-06, 08:58 PM	I haven't read anything beyond the orginal OP. Kill the loot hog in game. Don't let him back into the game. Problem sovled.
talkingbeatles 11-19-06, 09:05 PM	I'd totally start trying to steal my stuff back from him. Or how about just let him never be on watch duty.
Greg K 11-19-06, 09:35 PM	I was going to recommend handling it in-game as stealing from party members does not always have to be a problem for the group of players or make the player a "jerk". It all depends on the group of players. I have seen it used to show how a character starts off unsavory and then begins to reform and become a noble individual as the campaign progresses. However, I remembered that OP wrote that this particuliar player apparently *always* plays characters that steals from the party. Therefore, in this instance, it does sound like the player is a jerk. My suggestion would be to talk to this person out of game.
kelvinaw273 11-20-06, 01:16 AM	The above says to me that Bluff can be used against PCs ... The reason that neither Intimidate nor Diplomacy can be used against PCs is because they involve actively changing a character's behavior, which for PCs is entirely under the control of the players ... however, Bluff is used to withhold information, lie, or feint in combat ... all of which actions should be viable for use against PCs. Imagine how boring it would be if the PCs automatically saw through every lie an NPC told them and knew instantaneously that an NPC was only pretending to attack them. The rules state that using any skill to actively change a character's perception or behaviour does not work on another player character. To whit, if you use Bluff to try and convince another PC that you did not steal from them when they either (a) saw you do it or (b) know that no-one else could possibly have done it, it doesn't work no matter how good your Bluff roll or how bad their Sense Motive. I can lie absolutely convincingly that pink elephants flew past my window with your backpack .... that does not mean that you believe it, although you may think that I believe it.
pukunui 11-20-06, 01:30 AM	The rules state that using any skill to actively change a character's perception or behaviour does not work on another player character.Where do the rules state this? I'm not challenging you. Just hoping you can show me so I can read it for myself. What it says in the DMG on p. 128 is "NPCs can never influence PC attitudes. The players always make their characters' decisions." But that only refers to the Diplomacy attitude table. It doesn't say anything about an NPC or other PC using Bluff on a PC. To whit, if you use Bluff to try and convince another PC that you did not steal from them when they either (a) saw you do it or (b) know that no-one else could possibly have done it, it doesn't work no matter how good your Bluff roll or how bad their Sense Motive.Sure, under those specific circumstances, it makes sense that it wouldn't work ... However, if one PC didn't see the other PC steal something, and it is plausible that someone other than that PC might have taken it, then I don't see why an opposed Bluff/Sense Motive roll shouldn't be allowed. Same goes for NPC baddies trying to convince PCs they've just met that they're either good guys or that they didn't do whatever the PCs might think they did (but didn't actually see the bad guy do). If NPCs couldn't use Bluff on PCs in some circumstances, it would make it much harder to do such things as have sneaky NPC spies infiltrate the party, mislead the PCs with false information gained from lying NPCs, etc.
vardock 11-20-06, 10:33 AM	if your DM allows the use of bluff on PC's than he should look up the modifiers in the players handbook, he should be taking huge penalties to his bluff check. also if he steals from party members items they keep in possesion, use a greater glyph of warding with a disentigrate spell attached to it, or maybe bayful polymorph
Lunar_Shadow 11-20-06, 11:41 AM	Fire trap and a contingeny that would keep you from getting your ass fried.
Kitaki 11-20-06, 11:53 AM	3 words, curses are fun. It sounds like a cheap shot, but have the DM place a curse on him to prevent him from stealing from his allies, or at least always speak the truth to his allies (kills that Bluff check on allies).
Grand Theft Otto 11-20-06, 11:58 AM	Play with friends, agree not to be dicks. Problem solved.
Greg K 11-20-06, 12:16 PM	I just realized that you are not the dm. Talk to the DM and have him talk to the player!
Dheran 11-20-06, 01:21 PM	3 words, curses are fun. It sounds like a cheap shot, but have the DM place a curse on him to prevent him from stealing from his allies, or at least always speak the truth to his allies (kills that Bluff check on allies). It is a cheap shot. You shouldn't make in-game solutions to out-of-game problems. If a party cleric wants to cast Bestow Curse on the problem PC, that's fine. If the people playing the game want to sit down and discuss the problems the offending player is causing, that's good too. But having lightning bolts or curses appear out of nowhere because the players/DM disagrees with in-game choices is (a) cheating; and (b) way too heavy-handed. Pay attention to the rules. The player said he was taking 20 to hide items away as he looted them. First, Search on a body isn't an automatic success, and only covers 5'. The DM should have the player roll for each 5' area (of which the giant has several), and say something like "With that number, you find the following ..." (to make the player think he should try to take 20 for a thorough Search). Next, Sleight of Hand to hide small items is a standard action, repeated 20 times each. That's 2 minutes per item. Was there that much time while combat was underway? If not, all other items are still waiting to be looted. Apply appropriate Sense Motive modifiers, such as the -20 for "The bluff is way out there, almost too incredible to consider." And the Bluff only needs to fail once:Bluff (Cha) Try Again: Varies. Generally, a failed Bluff check in social interaction makes the target too suspicious for you to try again in the same circumstances Your party exists in a world full of magic. The PCs should be using it. Spells like Locate Object or psionic powers like Clairvoyant Sense or Read Thoughts would determine, in-game, that stolen items ended up in the thief's possession. This PC has followers from Leadership. Pay attention to the modifiers. The PC's reputation will never gain the "Fairness and generosity" modifier, but should be a candidate for "Aloofness" and "Cruelty" penalties. For attracting followers, remember the "Moves around a lot" penalty. And followers need to be protected. The DM should make sure that these followers get hit just as hard as the PCs do. There are lots of in-game solutions to a player who's selfish. Playing fast and loose with the rules for personal gain should never be tolerated; just paying attention and reading up on the basics will take care of that problem. And there are plenty of tools that other players can use against someone who's rather blatantly stealing. Remember, a Beguiler isn't spectacularly good at anything. A dedicated Divination spellcaster can find anything the Beguiler hides. A dedicated Rogue can grab anything the Beguiler wants, faster than the Beguiler can act. A bird familiar can keep the Beguiler under surveillance. And a Fighter can beat the thief to a pulp to teach him a lesson. ;)
vardock 11-21-06, 08:19 PM	there is also a mark of justice spell, or even a Geas/Quest spell.
Otto the Bugbear 11-21-06, 09:20 PM	Play with friends, agree not to be dicks. Problem solved. QFT. Every group should always have the same house-rule in the #1 spot: 1. Don't be a dick.