Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nytmare 04-03-05, 12:43 AM	I knew from the beginning that it would never work, mostly because it was such a good plan. My party and I started building our own fortress and ended up creating an item that operated, for all intents and purposes, like a Lyre of Building. Shortly thereafter we were met with the challenge of destroying a temple full of evil, water priests holed up in a flooded cavern tucked into a dormant volcano. After our first attempt, we limped back home, thankfully with only a single casualty. Then I had an epiphany! My plan was to use the item to drop a shaft from a neighboring tunnel, almost parallel to the water filled cavern. Then, with several feet of rock between us and the cavern we would tunnel out, at a slight, downward angle till we hit the exterior cliff face. Finally, we would climb back out of the shaft and from our original position, mine away at the retaining wall until the water broke through carrying (hopefully most of) it's occupants to certain death. Here is a helpful diagram: http://www.npzr.org/users/nytmare/images/diagram.jpg The drop shaft needs to be 40 feet deep, the vertical shaft and retaining wall destruction need about 45-50 feet total. Using the Lyre substitute, and the building rules from the Stronghold Builder's guide, how long would it take to flush the evil priests and their army down the mountain side. EXTRA CREDIT: Using the Stronghold Builder's Guide as a reference, about how many gold pieces of construction work can the Lyre produce in a round? How many feet of rock could it clear per round?
Azual 04-03-05, 11:38 AM	how did you make that diagram me like :drool:
Nytmare 04-03-05, 11:53 AM	how did you make that diagram me like :drool: I'm a Photoshop geek in my spare time. I try to squeeze it in between my time spent as a billionaire playboy and a masked vigilante.
Azual 04-03-05, 03:47 PM	kool but i must ask you, from you picture it seems that the mine shaft goes straight into a pool of water um how is this water not draining out through the hole. :D
Nytmare 04-03-05, 04:50 PM	The mine shafts in the picture were theoretical 'where I want them to be' things. If instead I wanted to show the shafts in effect I would have drawn this: http://www.npzr.org/users/nytmare/images/diagram2.jpg
lexabear 04-04-05, 12:57 AM	Your bad guys look way too happy about the whole "certain doom" experience.
Nytmare 04-04-05, 01:11 AM	They're pretty dumb bad guys.
Phrennzy 04-04-05, 12:49 PM	The whole Lyre of Building Excavation plan strikes me as: 1. Waaaaaaaaaaaay too much effort. 2. Incredibly time consuming. 3. Not to mention LOUD. 4. Less than heroic. Nice photoshop work though. Now, grab a sword and charge, like a hero! :fight!:
Nytmare 04-04-05, 02:21 PM	The whole Lyre of Building Excavation plan strikes me as: 1. Waaaaaaaaaaaay too much effort. 2. Incredibly time consuming. 3. Not to mention LOUD. 4. Less than heroic. Now, grab a sword and charge, like a hero! :fight!: According to my calculations, which I didn't want to post because the hope was that I could find someone else to duplicate my calculations and back me up, the plan was: 1. Incredibly simple. 2. Took about 5-20 minutes. 3. Loud, but quick. 4. Just cowardly but smart enough to fit our party makeup. We've managed to pull ourselves up the last 10 levels by running away and convincing other people to do the dirty work for us. He who fights and runs away and all that crap.
lexabear 04-05-05, 01:48 AM	Looking over the Lyre writeup in SBG, it says that it maks labor free -- by which I would assume that you would still require the workers. Who is it that's doing all the digging? By my calculations from looking at the moats/trenches section, it would still cost a couple thousand gold, even with the lyre, because you'd be tunneling through stone (x5 cost). Granted, this is the first time I've looked through the book with any amount of thoroughness, so I could be missing a relevant section. But it appears that the scheme would take too long - definitely more than the 5-20 minutes you quoted.
Nytmare 04-05-05, 03:25 PM	Looking over the Lyre writeup in SBG, it says that it maks labor free -- by which I would assume that you would still require the workers. Who is it that's doing all the digging? By my calculations from looking at the moats/trenches section, it would still cost a couple thousand gold, even with the lyre, because you'd be tunneling through stone (x5 cost). Granted, this is the first time I've looked through the book with any amount of thoroughness, so I could be missing a relevant section. But it appears that the scheme would take too long - definitely more than the 5-20 minutes you quoted. You missed the part in the DMG where it says: "The effect produced in but 30 minutes of playing is equal to the work of 100 humans laboring for 3 days."
Vanigo 04-05-05, 06:22 PM	Looking over the Lyre writeup in SBG, it says that it maks labor free -- by which I would assume that you would still require the workers. Who is it that's doing all the digging? ...Labor is workers.
lexabear 04-07-05, 12:58 PM	Hmm, teaches me not to go by the blurb in the SBG instead of looking up the whole text in the DMG. If 30 minutes of play is equal to three days of work, that certainily does cut down a bit on your time! However, I'd still gotten a work time of 6 or so days (which would actually be higher, if my reduce-the-cost math based on the Lyre blurb was wrong) from looking at the Moats and Trenches section. It's really the fact that it's solid rock that's slowing you down -- the price x 5 is a big hindrance. If you're not assuming that it's solid rock, then you could definitely do it in under 30 Lyre-minutes.
lexabear 04-07-05, 01:00 PM	...Labor is workers. I had interpreted it to mean that you'd still need the workers around; you just wouldn't have to pay/feed/house them. If it completely negates the need for any workers, that's even better.
Nytmare 04-10-05, 09:09 PM	Well it's been a week. Since I couldn't get anyone to duplicate my results independantly, I'll try for having people look over my work for mistakes. SIZE Broken up into 20x20x10 blocks, you would require 9 Stronghold Spaces to create a 90' long tunnel with a width and height of 20'. I decided to do it in this dimension because, number one, it seemed more structurally sound to have a square (or even a round) tunnel, and number two, because it seemed cheesey to operate along the long edge and I felt bad for the DM. If we were to operate along the long dimension of the Stronghold Space, it would only take 5 Spaces. My DM later ruled (possibly mistakenly) that each section of tunnel need only be 10x10. If this is true you could extrapolate that each 4000 sq ft section of the shaft was stretched to a 10x10x40 component, in which case you'd need 3 Stronghold Spaces to complete the entire tunnel. COMPONENTS There is no set price for a "tunnel component" but based off of other "empty room components" and the price of a moat or trench section made in solid rock I operated under the base cost of 500 gp per section. DEDUCTIONS I would argue that the incorporeal nature of the effect and the fact that there are no need for trusses or supports for workers would negate any cost adjustment for the depth of the shafts. Furthermore the Slate's 'fabricate' ability would grant an additional 5% reduction to all stronghold spaces. Free or unusual labor, such as that provided by a Slate of Building will take an additional 30% off. Fabricate: -5% Free Labor: -30% Total Deduction: 35% FINAL PRICE 9 Mine Components: 4500 gp 35% Deduction: -1575 gp Total: 2925 gp TIME Build time is 1 week for every 10,000 gp. The Slate does 3 days worth of work every half hour. This means that the Slate creates roughly 4286 gp worth of construction every half hour, and that the mine would be finished in approximately 20 minutes. We can further extrapolate the following rough estimates: Each minute of mining: 1 minute 4.5' 143 gp Every round of mining: 1 round .5' 14 gp Each 20x20x10 mine component: 2 minutes 10' 325 gp As for shafts with other dimensions, a 5 component long, 20x10x100 shaft would cost 1625 gold and take about 11 minutes. A 3 component long, 10x10x120 shaft would cost 975 gold and take about 7 minutes.
Phrennzy 04-10-05, 09:38 PM	You should hope it's solid rock, or those tunnels are going to cave in about as fast as they are dug, if you can't magic-up some supports for the walls.
wordserpent 04-10-05, 09:54 PM	You might unearth some other beasties while doing your excavations as well, you know, purple worms, xorns and the like. Also, is that tunnel leading downward from the underground lake already there or do you need to dig it yourself? What precautions will you take to ensure that the creatures that live down there will not hear your workers digging? Most subterranean dwellers know quite a bit about digging tunnels and might just catch on to you. Finally, who is going to do the last bit of excavation to get the water flowing? Will that be a hired hand? a slave? an unwitting PC? There might be some alignment issues when all of that water comes tumbling through to drown and pulverize the guy who digs that hole since you are effectively sending him/her to their deaths.
Nytmare 04-10-05, 10:06 PM	You should hope it's solid rock, or those tunnels are going to cave in about as fast as they are dug, if you can't magic-up some supports for the walls. It's solid rock and a series of Knowledge Architecture/Dungeoneering rolls were made. Either way, it doesn't matter, the Lyre creates supports, walls, buildings furniture. Everything Fabricate can make.
Nytmare 04-10-05, 10:38 PM	Also, is that tunnel leading downward from the underground lake already there or do you need to dig it yourself? We're digging all of it. What precautions will you take to ensure that the creatures that live down there will not hear your workers digging? Most subterranean dwellers know quite a bit about digging tunnels and might just catch on to you. No precautions, the idea was that it would all happen so quickly that our plan would be finished before they had enough time to gauge what we were doing and really react. We're in a tunnel where we can keep onlookers at a distance. Non-detection was cast so they wouldn't be able to scrye on us. We hadn't thought to worry about subterranean wandering monsters, but even so, that wouldn't change our plans. Finally, who is going to do the last bit of excavation to get the water flowing? Will that be a hired hand? a slave? an unwitting PC? There might be some alignment issues when all of that water comes tumbling through to drown and pulverize the guy who digs that hole since you are effectively sending him/her to their deaths. The last bit of excavation, along with the first bit, and the middle bit, would be done with the Lyre/Slate of Building. It would be completed from the top of the vertical shaft without danger to any of the PCs, our hired hands, or slaves.
wordserpent 04-10-05, 10:57 PM	Well if the Lyre is doing all of the work then I would say that it is not a bad idea except that the Lyre might get destroyed in the process when all that water comes rushing down the tunnel to wipe out the bad guys. Is there a maximum range that the Lyre can do work when separated from the Lyre's master? If so, the Master may have to be dangerously close when the final bit of excavation is done. Is there any chance that the Lyre could be snatched and retrieved by the enemy while it is working? You might need to put some glyphs of warding or other precautions on the Lyre to prevent such a thing from happening. There remains the question of the treasure. How will you retrieve it from the flooded cavern? assuming of course that it isn't washed away or destroyed by the tons of water.
Vanigo 04-10-05, 11:09 PM	I'd say the base cost of an empty tunnel would be 250 gp, the same as a basic storeroom. A basic storeroom is basically a big empty room, so there's really not much difference between that and a tunnel. That and any depth adjustments you decide are needed would be the only costs involved, since hewn stone walls are free underground. Furthermore, I'd argue that you're entitled to a much bigger price deduction for free labor. There are basically no raw materials involved in this project, so the only thing you need to buy are tools. I'd say labor costs account for around 70% of the budget on something like this.
Nytmare 04-10-05, 11:12 PM	Well if the Lyre is doing all of the work then I would say that it is not a bad idea except that the Lyre might get destroyed in the process when all that water comes rushing down the tunnel to wipe out the bad guys. Is there a maximum range that the Lyre can do work when separated from the Lyre's master? If so, the Master may have to be dangerously close when the final bit of excavation is done. Is there any chance that the Lyre could be snatched and retrieved by the enemy while it is working? You might need to put some glyphs of warding or other precautions on the Lyre to prevent such a thing from happening. The lyre (or in our case the slate) doesn't actually do the physical work, it just magically fabricates whatever it is you want to build. The only limitation the DM put on us is that we have to be within line of sight of the work as it was done. Something we can easily do from the top of the shaft. There remains the question of the treasure. How will you retrieve it from the flooded cavern? assuming of course that it isn't washed away or destroyed by the tons of water. The only item we're worried about is on an altar well above the water line, I'm sure we'd make a cursory inspection of the bodies at the bottom of the mountain, but we're less worried about their stuff, and more worried about killing them off and not having to fight them underwater.
wordserpent 04-10-05, 11:19 PM	If you look at ant Hives you will see that they build water traps so they don't get flooded when it rains. Provided that your enemies don't have such precautions, don't hear you coming, can't intercept the lyre and can't breathe underwater, your plan just might work. Of course the inhabitants of the underground lake might be a little upset when you move thier habitat. Good luck.
Draco Obscura 04-10-05, 11:23 PM	I believe that the inhabitants of the underground lake are the ones they're trying to kill, by washing them off the mountain.