Post/Author/DateTime	Post
lagnld 01-01-07, 12:46 AM	what do you think the bonuses and -'s would be for an elf that has been blinded for 150 years? would all the -'s be negated and bonuses added? thx for ur input
Silverthumb128 01-01-07, 12:49 AM	I have no idea why the time limit is a factor. I'm guessing its that much time as per a curse? Anyhow, the Elf would be affected normally by blindness. What bonuses do you mean?
lagnld 01-01-07, 12:56 AM	like for instance, if you are blinded from the loss of sight in both eyes, regardless of the reason over time you would become accustomed to being blind, therefore overcome some of the -'s the PH gives.. and gaining bonuses to listen etc, what do you think after 150 years of blindness should be the correct +'s and -'s?
BenSan 01-01-07, 12:59 AM	He has the usual blindness penalties, ameliorated by almost certainly having learned the Blind-Fighting feat and possibly any sequel feats that I'm forgetting about.
lagnld 01-01-07, 01:14 AM	mmk thx, any others with ideas?
Silverthumb128 01-01-07, 01:58 AM	like for instance, if you are blinded from the loss of sight in both eyes, regardless of the reason over time you would become accustomed to being blind, therefore overcome some of the -'s the PH gives.. and gaining bonuses to listen etc, what do you think after 150 years of blindness should be the correct +'s and -'s? You'll just have to take the penalties as they stand, and then do as BenSan said and take Blind-Fight. And rather than getting freebie bonuses, just take a bunch of ranks in Listen and take Skill Focus(Listen).
IdleAltruism 01-01-07, 02:02 AM	I don't think blind people get inate bonuses to anything. They just put ranks into skills out of nessecity. Don't try for free stuff, its just part of the concept of whatever it is you're trying to do.
Manyfist 01-01-07, 02:21 AM	I would say they would overcome the pent. and eventually gain either Blightsight or Blindsense 20'.
EyelessBeholder 01-01-07, 02:25 AM	What level character ? has it been made or are you thinking it up ? Nothing for free is a good idea , but maybe an extra 2 or 5 points in listen. Blind fighting ? .... if you already chose a feat if the characters already made , then maybe switching out a feat for it would be permissable. I do bealive your scneses will be more atuned and acute , but youll never be the equiviliant of a fully sighted person. If anything just give an extra 2 - 5 points in any skill that would accosiate with the other 4 scenses.
Asciiman 01-01-07, 02:33 AM	This is a character who has a severe disability. Quit trying to negate what is there, or you may as well play him without the blindness. Blinded The character cannot see. He takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a -4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character. If you don't like it, then don't be freaking blind.
IdleAltruism 01-01-07, 02:35 AM	Well if you were constantly fighting in the dark yes you would gain the feat, but not for free. You'd pay just like every other character who had to practice for hours with a blind fold to gain the feat. Someone who becomes blind doesn't instantly gain 3-5 ranks into listen. It takes a great portion of their time and effort to get used to it, so through effort and time they gain the ranks just like anyone else who spends the time and effort except they are somewhat forced to where their points are allocated. Blind sight and sense really don't make much sense, being blind doesn't give you the ability to see everything within close range.
Always-Late 01-01-07, 02:46 AM	+8 Listen. If he's a rogue by trade, toss him the Tactile Trapsmith feat for free. Medical studies (or some sorts of studies) have shown that upon being blind, the brain reworks itself to use the unused visual capacity on develop the other senses to a greater degree.
EyelessBeholder 01-01-07, 02:48 AM	Its not a matter of seeing everything, its a matter of knowing that for a fact when you go blind your other scenses becomed more attuned. Now 2-5 skill points arent much to whine about. I mean you have people house rulling or varianting more outrageous things. hes saying his character has been blind for 150 years, so hes had time to become more attuned and aware of his other scenses.
Mindshred 01-01-07, 04:15 AM	I wouldn't give them blindsight or blindsense, seeing as few blind people in the real world can walk down a street with a cane, let alone sharpshoot, tumble through hoops of flame, or otherwise "see" normally. Blind-fight feat, and Spot and Listen ranks are the way to go. As was mentioned above, if you don't like it, don't be blind.
Escef 01-01-07, 05:50 AM	My roommate has been in Germany for 2 years. He speaks almost no German. Being in a situation and adapting to it are two totally seperate animals. If this elf spent 150 years wallowing in self pity then he won't learn a damn thing about how to work with his disability.
Always-Late 01-01-07, 02:20 PM	My roommate has been in Germany for 2 years. He speaks almost no German. Being in a situation and adapting to it are two totally seperate animals. If this elf spent 150 years wallowing in self pity then he won't learn a damn thing about how to work with his disability.He gets his dinner by... 1. Having you get it for him. 2. Having it delivered and using an online translator. 3. Finding people who speak English.7
EyelessBeholder 01-01-07, 02:54 PM	The Point ... his character has been blinded but hes still been training and honing his skills to keep his abilities up. He would have at some point over come much of the weaknesses, yet still retain some minor fallbacks. Im not saying his blind character can pick out someone froma line up , or see like he has a pair of binoculars. But just underatand ... If a person has a downfall especially with a sense that is very primary in every day life , the other senses will take up alot of slack.
IdleAltruism 01-01-07, 04:04 PM	What you're not accounting for instead of putting ranks into spot he has more into listen ;) . Just because a character has a disability, it doesn't mean they gain a bonus. Your character gains a negative level, he doesn't gain anything or the character loses an arm his left arm doesn't all of a sudden become stronger because he lost the other. Disabilities do not give advantages(They are called disabilities for a reason). A smart person would try to negate their disability as much as possible, so they take feats and skill ranks to try and overcome them being disabled. Nothing is free, yes they might try and make of for it in other areas but they still have to work for it, the abilities don't fall into their laps.
theotherdraxen 01-01-07, 04:10 PM	Just because a character has a disability, it doesn't mean they gain a bonus...Disabilities do not give advantages(They are called disabilities for a reason). Not true (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm). I'd treat being blind as a flaw, and allow the person to use his feat to advance along the combat-focus feat-tree (from Player's Handbook II) until he gets blindsense. Or houserule a feat that offers blindsense out to 5'.
CryoSilver 01-01-07, 04:16 PM	Such a feat existed in 3.0 Sword & Fist. A player asked me to play a blind character once. He asked me to rule on it. My ruling: You are treated as a sighted character in all ways, including gaze attacks. Since D&D is fantasy, we are assuming you have so well overcome your blindness that it does not hinder you at all. Roleplay your blindness.
theotherdraxen 01-01-07, 04:23 PM	Such a feat existed in 3.0 Sword & Fist. For those looking for it: it's in Sword and Fist. A player asked me to play a blind character once. He asked me to rule on it. My ruling: You are treated as a sighted character in all ways, including gaze attacks. Since D&D is fantasy, we are assuming you have so well overcome your blindness that it does not hinder you at all. Roleplay your blindness. While RPing something is fun, it isn't as much fun as having a real mechanical representation for it. One could play a Paladin merely by playing a Fighter/Cleric with the Wild Cohort Feat, but there's something so much nicer about being able to play a Paladin.
CryoSilver 01-01-07, 10:03 PM	While RPing something is fun, it isn't as much fun as having a real mechanical representation for it. One could play a Paladin merely by playing a Fighter/Cleric with the Wild Cohort Feat, but there's something so much nicer about being able to play a Paladin. Then they can have a blind character with Blind-Fight. But they shouldn't expect freebies.
theotherdraxen 01-01-07, 10:14 PM	Then they can have a blind character with Blind-Fight. But they shouldn't expect freebies. I can see that: voluntarily blinding your character shouldn't be a complete advantage in of itself. However, I do think that the character (and the DM) should work to make it playable. It's a perfectly viable concept: look at Illidan from Warcraft III.
Silverthumb128 01-01-07, 11:51 PM	It's a perfectly viable concept: look at Illidan from Warcraft III. I'm sure he didn't automatically gain super-senses once he went blind. He was one of those Demon Hunters, wasn't he? Isn't there a ritual Demon Hunters go through, or some form of training? Again, not for free.
theotherdraxen 01-02-07, 12:51 AM	I'm sure he didn't automatically gain super-senses once he went blind. He was one of those Demon Hunters, wasn't he? Isn't there a ritual Demon Hunters go through, or some form of training? Again, not for free. It shouldn't be free. However, it shouldn't just be a blatant nerf either.
Caliborn 01-02-07, 01:43 AM	No special advantages, just treat the blindness as 2 flaws. He'll likely still be weaker than if he were not blind, even with the 2 free feats, but he's friggen' blind you're going to have to expect things like that.
Nived 01-02-07, 01:54 AM	I don't like the idea of giving a blind character any bonuses for being blind. I don't like the idea of negating the effects of blindness for a character that's been blind a long time. I don't like treating blindness as a flaw (in the Unearther Arcana sense). The reason that blind characters in literature are inspiring is that they do so in spite of their disablity. The same goes for real life people who have adapted to their situation is that they have a disability and they overcome it. So make your players overcome it. If they can make a successful blind character fine... but make them deal with the penelties otherwise it's pointless. Also read this thread The PROPER way to make a blind character (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=661437) I agree with it.
Asciiman 01-02-07, 02:52 AM	It shouldn't be free. However, it shouldn't just be a blatant nerf either. Oh dear god! Listen to what you are saying. The character is freaking blind. It is a severely hampering disability. You don't get mythical powers by poking out your eyes. The very definition of blind is a severe disability. If you don't like what being blind does to a character, don't be blind.
Silverthumb128 01-02-07, 03:02 AM	It shouldn't be free. However, it shouldn't just be a blatant nerf either. Yes it should be a blatant nerf. It should be the blatant nerf. Your eyes don't work when you're blind. What do adventurers use their eyes for? Just about everything. Seeing what you're swinging your sword at, aiming your spells, not walking into a pit of spikes, dodging a Dragon's teeth, etc. If you can't do that, then you're boned. How else are you going to get XP? Juggling? Probably not. How are you going to know your gold pieces aren't just copper pieces? Ask the Rogue. Alright, sure, ask the Rogue to check your gold. I truthfully can't think of any other reason why being blind shouldn't be the biggest nerf that isn't death.
theotherdraxen 01-02-07, 03:21 AM	Also read this thread The PROPER way to make a blind character (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=661437) I agree with it. Thanks! I like what this guy has to say. Oh dear god! Listen to what you are saying. The character is freaking blind. It is a severely hampering disability. You don't get mythical powers by poking out your eyes. The very definition of blind is a severe disability. If you don't like what being blind does to a character, don't be blind. The Eye of Gruumsh spits in your face (quite literally, too). Besides, you don't gain mythical powers by standing in a certain stance or performing a specific maneuver. Of course, this is in real life, which is exactly what D&D isn't. Listen to what you're saying: You don't get mythical powers Yes, yes you do. This is D&D: it's all about mythical powers. Yes it should be a blatant nerf. It should be the blatant nerf. Your eyes don't work when you're blind. What do adventurers use their eyes for? Just about everything. Seeing what you're swinging your sword at, aiming your spells, not walking into a pit of spikes, dodging a Dragon's teeth, etc. If you can't do that, then you're boned. How else are you going to get XP? Juggling? Probably not. How are you going to know your gold pieces aren't just copper pieces? Ask the Rogue. Alright, sure, ask the Rogue to check your gold. I truthfully can't think of any other reason why being blind shouldn't be the biggest nerf that isn't death. How about making a cool character concept (Illidan, Daredevil, ect.) work? Seriously, turning a disadvantage into an advantage is nothing new: it's a friggin' archetype! One last note: Blinded The character cannot see. He takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a -4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.
IdleAltruism 01-02-07, 04:10 AM	If you want to go for daredevil and that lot go to a different game :D . Champions is what you're looking for, Spatial awareness FTW. If you really want to tweak alot of things and house rule out to wahzoo then yes you could make a blind,deaf character with stump knife hands and peg legs. You could really do anything if thats the case. As it is being blind in D&D is a disability, a serious one and if you can't handle that fact you shouldn't play a blind character. If you really must make a blind character look at the complete adventurer there is a feat there you can locate people with listen checks, max listen and get blind fighting and you're good to go. Hell take zen archery just to be the badest blind dude around. You will take all the penalties of being blind but with blind fighting it wont be that bad, don't get me wrong you wont be the best but you can say you played a blind character. WOOT? There you go, thats how you make a blind character.
KurenaiYami 01-02-07, 04:15 AM	Ah, another blind thread. Is it that time again already? I haven't read through all the posts, as I'm sure I've read them before in one of the other threads. If it hasn't been said already, my favorite alternative is: Roleplay it as blind. Don't make him actually blind. No bonuses, no penalties. Simply roleplay him as blind.
EyelessBeholder 01-02-07, 02:35 PM	Roleplay it as blind. Don't make him actually blind. No bonuses, no penalties. Simply roleplay him as blind. So does that mean he gets a spot check ?
theotherdraxen 01-02-07, 10:47 PM	If you want to go for daredevil and that lot go to a different game :D . Champions is what you're looking for, Spatial awareness FTW. If you really want to tweak alot of things and house rule out to wahzoo then yes you could make a blind,deaf character with stump knife hands and peg legs. You could really do anything if thats the case. As it is being blind in D&D is a disability, a serious one and if you can't handle that fact you shouldn't play a blind character. If you really must make a blind character look at the complete adventurer there is a feat there you can locate people with listen checks, max listen and get blind fighting and you're good to go. Hell take zen archery just to be the badest blind dude around. You will take all the penalties of being blind but with blind fighting it wont be that bad, don't get me wrong you wont be the best but you can say you played a blind character. WOOT? There you go, thats how you make a blind character. Awesome, but telling someone to play a different game violated the Jell_Moo principle. Otherwise, what you have here is, IMO, excellent. I like the Zen Archery feat for a blind character.
CryoSilver 01-02-07, 10:50 PM	So does that mean he gets a spot check ? Yes. He's so incredibly amazing, he can make Spot checks.
theotherdraxen 01-02-07, 10:55 PM	Yes. He's so incredibly amazing, he can make Spot checks. It's not a spot check...it's his supernatural innate blind sensing ability that happens to mirror the mechanic of spot checks. The down side: bright light can disturb this Ki power of his.
KurenaiYami 01-02-07, 11:26 PM	It's not a spot check...it's his supernatural innate blind sensing ability that happens to mirror the mechanic of spot checks. The down side: bright light can disturb this Ki power of his. See? theotherdraxen gets it. You can justify any mechanic through flavor, it's not difficult.
Asciiman 01-03-07, 12:29 AM	See? theotherdraxen gets it. You can justify any mechanic through flavor, it's not difficult. No he isn't. He's the one who thinks the character should get mythical powers by being blind. He's the one who thinks the character should get better by being blind. And just for the record, keep in mind that any spell with a target greater then touch fails because you don't even have line of sight. And theotherdraxen, the Eye of Gruumsh prestige class isn't blind, it still has one eye. So take that spit and swallow it!
Bluehero 01-03-07, 01:06 AM	One way to get over blindness some what is to either play or dip a level of psion then take synthesis, know direction and location, and sense link. This will allow you to see when it matters (in battle) but still have to deal with it outside and in a general roleplaying purpose, although it brings up the question of if you're going to see with psionics, why be blind at all?
KurenaiYami 01-03-07, 01:12 AM	No he isn't. He's the one who thinks the character should get mythical powers by being blind. He's the one who thinks the character should get better by being blind. No, he wasn't more powerful at all. He had the same power as any other character. It's just changing the flavor.
Silverthumb128 01-03-07, 01:39 AM	if you're going to see with psionics, why be blind at all? That's the brick wall we've been running into, there's no real reason to play a blind character if your first mission is to find a way to see. I don't mind the idea of just saying "He's blind" and not taking any of the penalties, but is that really any different than saying "I'm deaf" and not taking any penalties?
journeyman777 01-03-07, 02:28 AM	And just for the record, keep in mind that any spell with a target greater then touch fails because you don't even have line of sight.Not quite true. He can target grid intersections just fine. AoE spells generally call for line of effect, not line of sight. Admittedly, few people would want to be in a party with a blind evoker, but if you've got a half dragon tank who wants to charge the enemy and yell "hit me" back to the mage.....(been there, did that, won the fight surprisingly enough)
theotherdraxen 01-03-07, 03:34 PM	No he isn't. He's the one who thinks the character should get mythical powers by being blind. He's the one who thinks the character should get better by being blind. And just for the record, keep in mind that any spell with a target greater then touch fails because you don't even have line of sight. And theotherdraxen, the Eye of Gruumsh prestige class isn't blind, it still has one eye. So take that spit and swallow it! No, he wasn't more powerful at all. He had the same power as any other character. It's just changing the flavor. Well, you can change the flavor, however I did say that having a real mechanical effect for your character concept is more fun than just describing it and surviving on DM fiat. Imagine that I have a character concept that involves beating people with my fists alone. Now, fighting unarmed and unarmored should be a big nerf...unless you play a monk (which is it's own nerf, but those are problems with the class not the concept). The same goes for playing a blind character. I'd try to at least come up with some houserules to make the concept work. If you want to play in your games that people who choose to play blind characters are just supposed to voluntarily nerf themselves, then fine, whatever is fun for you. For me, however, I'd rather emphasize the concept in some fashion.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 01-03-07, 07:18 PM	I'm sure he didn't automatically gain super-senses once he went blind. He was one of those Demon Hunters, wasn't he? Isn't there a ritual Demon Hunters go through, or some form of training? Again, not for free. Demon Hunters remove their eyes in a ritual.
Selfless_Id 01-03-07, 08:09 PM	150 years is a long time. You cant really use real world examples for this kind of thing in a fantasy campange. Think fantasy. Its a world where people use swords everyday to defend themselves and its not for some three year war -- its LIFE. But I agree that a character who has been blinded for an extended period of time should not simply over come his or her disabilities. Perhaps the use of racial levels could help this situation. Maybe allow them to specialize in a weapon if they were otherwise unable to do so. Give them hightened senses when it comes to sensing someone's motives through their tone of voice. Perhaps allow them some variation of the Karmic Strike feat. This wouldprobably require that the character be trained by some highlevel outsider since these abilites whould not simply comer natural to the character. Don't forget the obvious immnities to gazes and light affects. But you must keep the negatives that come with blindness.
lagnld 01-03-07, 09:12 PM	hmm it all sounds good, but 150 years is a long time, and in his history he hasnt been sitting in a hole forever, hes been trying to overcome blindness and the reason he is adventuring is to find a cure for his blindness now that after 100ish years of training he feels that he can handle himself... does that change your opinions?
theotherdraxen 01-04-07, 12:15 AM	Have him take blind-fight and a home-brew feat (try ressurecting that blind-sense feat from Sword and Fist) to remove all penalties save the inability to make spot checks. He'll still have the disadvantage of being unable to spot people making hide checks (or make spot checks of any kind), but the advantage of being impervious to blinding effects. Make sure he goes into a class that offers Uncanny Dodge, to help against sneak attacks and the like. I advise Warblade, personally, although if he puts up with Scout for a while, Blind-sight will kick in after several levels, and he'll be able to survive just like everyone else.
Silverthumb128 01-04-07, 02:32 AM	hes been trying to overcome blindness and the reason he is adventuring is to find a cure for his blindness He could also find a Cleric/become one, and cast Remove Blindness. If he lost his eyes completely, Regenerate. 150 gp, or a century of training...
journeyman777 01-04-07, 03:59 AM	He could also find a Cleric/become one, and cast Remove Blindness. If he lost his eyes completely, Regenerate. 150 gp, or a century of training...You know, it could be a cursed wound. (those caster lv checks are a pain when you're relying on low lv casters)
Thanqol 01-04-07, 05:06 AM	Why is it always Blindness? :weep: Why is it never Indigestion?