Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Vorpal Tribble 10-18-05, 04:44 PM	Every year about this time I pull out good ole Dracula (the original book by Bram Stoker) and spend a few days reading it. I really enjoy it and do everytime I read it. However, I don't care much for vamprie movies or other vampire books in the least. What I do like in Dracula is the bringing together of people who beforehand hardly knew one another. Bonded by love and a sense of duty they stalk the blood sucker and keep him from his victims, aided by their Faith and their trust in one another. I'm rooting for the stake drivers through the whole thing. On the flipside theres a little thing I've noticed over the years playing D&D. Whether player or DM, every single game I've ever joined or started, there has been someone who wanted to play one of the following (and if not allowed one, generally asks for the other): #1. Tiefling #2. Drow #3. Anything with demon blood. And this is if its a lower-leveled campaign. In higher levels these folk invariably want to play vampires. They probably read Dracula and root on Mr. Paleface Hairypalm. In fact, a good many if not most books now seems to try to romanticize vampires for some reason that escapes me. This is completely alien to me. I've always liked playing the good guy. Maybe a little strange or singed around the edges, but neverthreless, a caring fellow (or fellowette, depending on what comes to mind). What is it that draws so many folks to playing the spawn of demons, or evil darkness dwellers, or even blood-sucking, innocent slaughtering, lust-filled smelly corpses? I looked at the Book of Vile Darkness and even as a DM I'm not sure I could stomach playing an NPC with much of anything in there. Now, I look at the Book of Exalted Deeds and my first thought was, intelligently, "Ooooooh..." However, most of the folk who play the Demon/Drow/Dead, which from this point I will refer to as the three D's, would drool over Vile Darkness, and scoff at the BoED. And then there is this thing with folks who like to call themselves evil. They'll have alignment tests and hey, they are chaotic evil, whaddya know! And they revel in it. Personally, I've seen alot of these tests and you'd just about have to profess to baby eating to be evil. I mean, how is evil 'cool'? I go with Ray. Be a 'bad boy' but a 'good guy'. What are you, blood sucker or stake driver and why?
Illion the Red 10-18-05, 04:59 PM	Blood Sucker or Stake Driver...It depends on the system and my mood. I've played enough V:TM to understand things from the romanticized blood sucker side, but I usually fall well within the Stake Driver side. I tend to play characters falling on the side of justice, fairness, and honor. If I want an eveil character, I'll jst ask my wife to make up the character because she is just better at making evil characters than I will ever be. Kinda sad, since I spend most of my time DMing :) Just remember that if you are hunting vampires, keep plenty of stakes handy. Personally, I'll take mine "Medium-Rare." ;)
Silverthumb128 10-18-05, 05:31 PM	I'm almost always the stake-driver. It can be fun building evil NPCs, but in the end, nothing fulfills my preference like destroying evil. Plus, I just plain suck at roleplaying anything actually evil. :D
Scipion Emilien 10-18-05, 06:23 PM	Personnally, i would play both. I think those two are the side of the human mind. The stack driver is our noble part, the one who fight the horror of the night and is our humanity. The bloodsucker is our own egoistical self, it represent the power of the beast inside each one and the danger and lure of evil that we all see. I read somewhere that the vampire was an invention at a period of time where the new psychic science threatent to revel us as no more than beast in disguise. And i think that Bram Stocker Dracula is an expression of this fear and an exploration of the dark side of ourself. As would say Yoda, the dark path is seductive and i played a long time evil character. Ironically, this experience lead me to make true and strong heros after what I learn from those evil character. I would say that those that wish to play the bloodsuckers research the power and commoditie of being evil. If they are like me, they will sooner or later understand that the power that allow the bloodsucker to survive, will lead to their own destruction. And they will play de stack driver after that.
Novacat 10-18-05, 07:36 PM	I largely play one of two character types: 1) The Guardian. This character type is extremely protective of the rest of the party. Usually a melee (or otherwise non-caster) class, they tend to be large and friendly, though possibly a bit over-eager to draw weapons to defend what they see as precious. These characters are honest, open, and loyal, even to the point of being a weakness. Example: An Orc Fighter (Thraine) who was rescued as a child from an illegal pit-fighting tournament. He feels indebted to his comrades and is more than willing to sacrifice himself to protect them if necessary. He is brave, kind-hearted, and always acts as he believes is right. 2) The Ally of Convenience. This character tends to be a caster of some sort, as well as being overly cautious and leaning on the side of paranoid. His goals are not necessarily good or evil, but wholly aside from the party's goals or the direction of the rest of the story. Usually, this character is with the party because it suits his interests (to face a common enemy, or otherwise get closer to his goal). Example: A Human Sorcerer (Vianor) who awoke after 10,000 years of stasis joins the party in their battle against the Githyanki's global invasion. His ultimate goal is to resurrect his master, Talizar, who was an ancient, powerful wizard. Until he has the power to do it, or finds someone who can, he will help push the Githyanki back from his master's world (as he sees it, his master is entitled to world rulership).
Tibs 10-18-05, 11:50 PM	Stake driver, all the way. Alway been fond of the forces of good, scared and quite frankly overwhelmed, combating the forces of the night with little more than their wits, courage, and determination to succeed. Heck, I dressed as Van Helsing for halloween when I was twelve (one of my favorite characters ever, by the way-gotta love the ol' doc). I had to explain who I was to everyone who asked, it was kinda funny.
blazeesq2000 10-19-05, 12:22 PM	Yeah, my life as a lick has been good and bad; not that I had a choice. It was pretty shaky there though, when the furballs and flash masters started screwing things up. Before that all I had to worry about were the dumb people read those stupid books by that writer of trite poetry and b-class porn down in New Orleans. I swear to God if I see the word "praternatural" in print again, I'll claw apart a Barnes and Noble. But, hey, it was fun to imagine you wusses all had your collective panties in a bunch. Until tonight I could only just picture one of you Nobles losin' it. Goody for us though, the night is young and I have lots of rusty pointy things, and since it looks like your not getting out of those chains before dawn I am sure I will have the chance to see the deal up close. If you are very good I'll give you a choice of a suntan or the ole iron box in the ground. You'll have plenty of time to decide. Sunrise is in a bout 6 hours. So where is the Prince's haven again? -- Wayne Mishokow Sabbat Ravnos Sit down. Relax, I will get your cloak. I just put a log on the fire, by Tymora, I knew you would make it. And to think you doubted your friend Brother Keldath. The wine is just mulled now. No, no, no... do not loosen the strings of your pouch, young man, for what we have to offer in this hostle are yours. You need only make a small donation, if you have the means and then only at the end of your stay. We don't want you to feel any obligation while your here. You get that sort of thing over at Torm's, may He protect me evermore. What? A Skeleton army in Deepmoore ? I must take-to-arms. Surely we will leave at first light if there is time. If you and yours need fodder, healing or direction speak now, for I must prepare for the battle ahead, and with a bit of Tymora's luck we'll be able to seize the right moment for all my brothers and sisters. -- Brother Keldath Cleric of Tymora Role-playing is fun either way, it is about the story and the struggles.
KenderBryant 10-19-05, 09:26 PM	Stake driver. SLAYERS ROCK! Anybody try to put the Slayer into D&D? I'm trying coz I'm too busy (working on d20) to learn the new systems required for BTVS/Angel RPGs. D20 RULES!
Lasicar 10-20-05, 12:51 AM	You forgot about the best BTVS character.....Spike. I love villains! So yeah gonna say I'm a bloodsucker.....However I like the romanticized villain...Book of Vile Darkness was a little too much for me. And sadly I read it anyway.
ImmortalBlueMage 10-20-05, 01:34 AM	Somewhat off-topic, but am I the only one who went nuts with boredom while reading DRACULA? I loved the first half, especially Harker's harrowing experience in the castle, but the last half it seems the same scene over and over again, Van Helsing calls everyone together and spends all night saying "You have no idea what we're dealing with, no idea at all!". Then the big finale comes and everyone decides to FINALLY do something about it, and it's over in like half a page, not to mention that Drac cashes out like a wimp. I was like "What, THAT'S what the old man was so scared of all this time? I've had rashes that put up more of a fight than that". I dunno, didn't do it for me. Anyways, I went through a Vampire: The Masquerade kick in high school, and it was a fun game, but I eventually got fed up with it. The pretension, the cliches, the posers, the pretension, the attrociusly bad metagame plot, the flatout stupid splats and "bloodlines", the pretension, it was a lot to put up with. Eventually I moved on to Hunter: The Reckoning, which was a kick and a half to play, and had the added bonus of ******* off most of the rest of the White Wolf fan core. But eventually I tired of that too, since I was never a fan of the d10 system or of White Wolf's approach to writing RPGs (seriously, this is not an artform, it's not amateur theatre, give it a ****ing rest already). I've always liked the D&D version of the vampire, closer to the old folklore roots than the modern pop culture Anne Rice bloodsucker, but still with a little dark sophistication to set it apart from the scads of other undead beasties. I especially like the vampiric weaknesses, they give a unique flavor of superstition and mysticism. A few years ago DRAGON magazine (or was it DUNGEON? I don't remember) featured a 3.5 version of the original Castle Ravenloft and I had an excellent game with a group of new players (who enjoyed the session immensely, even if old Strahd did kick the holy bajeezus out of them at the end) and it was a lot of fun playing up the old world vampire lord image for my villain, but it was equally fun playing the mad as hell vampire hunting Paladin NPC that backed the players up. So as a DM I get the best of both worlds you could say, I can have my vampires and my holy water wielding Exorcist of the Silver Flame too.
Callahan 10-20-05, 03:44 AM	playing a vampire/demon/drow has been a n00b trend for as long as Vampires/demons/drow have been playable characters. It's especially common in players that lack basic role playing ability. They go for the simple things that would make their characters attractive to them, and that's usually a monster of some sort. Most people don't even know how to role play a drow. They pick one and then when I tell them "well you're a escaped your life as a sex slave to a drow queen" they get the look of a deer caught in the headlights. Drow a matriarchy? Nah, can't be! But they pick them any way because it's not quite an elf and has nifty special abilities. ----------- on a side note... or maybe on topic... I always thought that H.P. Lovecraft had the best take on a vampire with "The Shunned House".
KenderBryant 10-20-05, 06:41 PM	The one thing I don't like about standard vampires is that it's tough to dispose of the body. I mean, what if one is seen as an upstanding member of society on the surface, while secretly draining the blood of virgins and children. Kill the vamp: still a body to dispose of. In BTVS/Angel stake to the heart/head chop/etc= pile of dust, sweep under rug or bed. Less clean up.
Ront Iron-Roar 10-20-05, 07:02 PM	I'm most certainly a Stake-Driver. In my rp experience everybody plays the damn demon-blooded inuyasha type, the sex-crazy vampire, and goodly-drow renegade type has utterly made me sick! In addition to this its always elves! God I hate those Legolas inspired wanna-bes! I'm the only damn half-orc or gnome! I prefer originality and not some Media inspired thing. I'm the inventive illusionist and wizard. I'm the noble barbarian and battle-addicted berserker.
Order 66(6) 10-20-05, 09:26 PM	Simple but weird answer: Good blood sucker. I currently play a Chaotic Good Dhampir (human/vampire). He wasn't destined to be a vamp, but suffered from the "Blade effect" in which his pregnant mother was bitten by a vampire. And so far playing a half-vampire who is chaotic in nature but a truly good person who tries to what is right despite his horrific affliction has been a wonderful roleplaying experience. What's more, I have been trying to deviate from vampire stereotypes which portray them as always being dour, overtly sexual, depressed, or "goth". My character is an intelligent, but deeply caring young person (he's 18) who wants to see the world, fight against evil, and endulge his fascination with the arcane (he's a sorcerer). Along the way, he also has had to stuggle through adolescence as essentially a "freak of nature" (as if being a teen wasn't bad enough)...but he has never been a mopey goth character. As for his need for blood, his friends usually donate it to him (they bleed themselves, he doesn't drink from them), or he purchases it from slaughter houses or mage shops that sell it as material components. Not trying to toot my own horn, just pointing out that not everybody plays stereotypical vampires or demons. It is fun playing a weird character, but I agree that if your gonna do it, put some real thought into it and make it your own.
Phantom Lord 10-20-05, 10:11 PM	As an aside, you don't think that Bram Stoker's Dracula romanticizes the vampire? How does it not? I'm thinking of the scene in the forbidden room, where the three female vampires nearly start to feed on poor Jonathan. Or the scene back in England near Carfax when Dracula makes Mina his vampire bride. Or when Lucy has her pleasant dreams while sleepwalking, while Dracula is sucking her dry. Vampires have always, always been very desirable creatures, arousing carnal desires in even the stalwart Dr. Van Helsing (if but for a moment.) Now, in answer to your question: stake-driver all the way. Not just stakes, but consecrated stakes soaked in holy water and coated with fresh-minced garlic.
Fates_Jester 10-21-05, 12:52 AM	First off, I don't think they're reading Stoker. Most kids today probably don't even know who he is (was rather). They're reading Ann Rice and getting all tingly in those special places. As to why: Power. Young people (especially the "geek" types) don't exactly have the world at their feet, they get pushed around by everyone, even each other. So they invent a fantasy world where they have power. Lots of it. A goody-two-shoes would want everyone to get along, a badguy would crush his enemies and take what he wanted. They would never be picked on. It's also a way to explore that inner dark side we all have without anyone really getting hurt or going to prison.
CannonFodder2244 10-21-05, 01:32 AM	I have played good and neutral, and I look forward to playing an evil character in my next campaign. One of the reasons I want to do so is for the roleplaying opportunities - namely, showing folks that evil doesn't need to be stupid. In fact, in many campaigns, the Good guys tend to be rather morally flexible. So, I look forward to the IC debate of what is good and what is evil. And, what is practical. I plan to play a drow, and the party has a rather racist surface elf... who has "Good" written on his character sheet. Now, I know that when my character gets introduced, there's gonna be a serious dustup. I just intend to point out that it's the noble and good elf who will be advocating summarily killing a sentient being because of the color of their skin, and that it's the vile and wicked drow who's open to civil negotiations. Remember, a paladin who smites evil is just a religious fanatic who follows the advice of the voices in his head. Who's to say that those voices are correct?
blazeesq2000 10-21-05, 12:29 PM	First off, I don't think they're reading Stoker. Most kids today probably don't even know who he is (was rather). They're reading Ann Rice and getting all tingly in those special places. Imagine if they read the Larell K. Hamilton Anita Blake: Vampire Hunter novels. After reading Incubus Dreams, I don't think "hunter" is the right word. Personally, I love those, but it's getting to where they might have to make sure you're 18 to read one.
Bane 10-21-05, 02:19 PM	Vampires have not always been romanticized. That trend was started by Bram Stoker. The original inspiration for Dracula was Vlad Tepes. Vlad was a cruel, sadistic vicious man whose deeds would get this moved to the mature forum without a second thought. Vampires have been associated with evil first, romance later or not at all through most of their history. It's only relatively recently that vampires have turned into anything other than something to be feared and reviled.
Callahan 10-21-05, 03:45 PM	On the same note: I played that horrid RPG Vampire - The Masquerade: bloodlines... It's as if they took a regular RPG and replaced the word "STD" with "Vampire". All Vampirism is today is a disease that's transferred through a hickie while making out.
ImmortalBlueMage 10-21-05, 06:48 PM	Although I risk getting this pushed into the Mature forums, I will say this: I have never understood why vampires are seen as sex symbols. Sex with dead people is gross.
Phantom Lord 10-21-05, 11:04 PM	It's not the fact that they're dead, silly. It's because in Dracula and I, Strahd (good book, BTW) vampires have like a +18 racial bonus to CHA. You don't care if a vampire's dead when it's so incredibly sexy that you can't think. BTW: That's a pretty nifty avatar you got yourself there :D
Callahan 10-22-05, 02:09 AM	It's not the fact that they're dead, silly. It's because in Dracula and I, Strahd (good book, BTW) vampires have like a +18 racial bonus to CHA. You don't care if a vampire's dead when it's so incredibly sexy that you can't think. Damn those sexy Ghast! Is there not a woman on earth that can resist it's rotting vomit enducing sexy flesh?! (high charisma =/= sexy )
ImmortalBlueMage 10-25-05, 03:30 PM	Yeesh, for the last time already, Charisma is NOT a measure of physical appearance or attractiveness, it is your force of personality. Although good looks and sex appeal DO influence how appealing you are to other people, they are not the sole indicator. Winston Churchill was ugly as a mud fence but in D&D terms he had a Charisma score that was off the charts.
a_psh 10-25-05, 08:11 PM	I think blood-sucker-as-stake-driver has some potential. Unfortunately, it's done a lot, and done poorly pretty much every time. Luckily for me, I haven't played an 3rd Edition FR, so my wonderful image of the tiefling (thank you, Planescape!) has never been ruined for me. I'll join everyone else in hating vampire and drow characters, however.
Waterhammer 10-26-05, 12:46 AM	He was CN alignment a fighter/magic-user,specialised w/short sword & dagger. The old Drow were ambedextrious....He was the first born of a great house and ancient drow law states that the 1st born shall inheret all. however the teachings of Lolth state that no male shall rule a great house. The young lad had some younger sisters;so his only chance was to seek his foftune in the surface world. Characters that are somewhat grey can be fun to play but agood story is critical. I generally don't do the evil thing I did want to play an assasin had to go with LE at least have some honor. The drow character was made before I ever heard of the Drittzz character by the way. The survey I took said I was a dwarf fighter/ranger/cleric of Helm....go figure....
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-26-05, 03:11 AM	Eh, the good guys are chumps, but powerful baddies like vamps (Neutral vamps, because If I'm going to be a vampire, I'm not going to be the one that gets his dumb butt killed in twenty minutes) make it feel too easy when I play a high level PC. Give me a halfling caster, human bard or elven rogue and I will show you a sophisticated, powerful force of evil the likes of which this world has never seen, without all the mindless depravity of the Book of Vile Dorkness. Really, its all about doing it with style and having to drink blood and stay out of the sun cramps mine.
Shaitan0.2beta 10-26-05, 09:23 PM	Well, the BoVD is designed to discourage the players from playing evil characters since it shows that evil is not cool but something you wouldn't want your daughter to date. People who like it are ussualy unimaginative and petty with ego problems ussualy linked to a difficult character formation period in life (puberty, adolescence whathave you) or sipmly a lack of sophistication or perception of how things work in life. The BoVD can de a good tool for you to show them that they most certanly DON'T want to be evil. On the other hand the BoED is seriously fawed in essece because of two philosophical concepts that it is based on. Firstly, it assumes that most people play good characters, or at least think they do, and it gives them way to much firepower and can seriously ruin games. Encouraging powergaming is not promoting goodnes and supporting the ideals of good in my book. But that is a lesser issue. A bigger problem is that it largely has an American outlook of "good", which is considered by the mayority of the non-American world popularion as quite evil. The outlook is simple - if something has a philosophy different than you, you should smite it, for it is evil. The good characters in the book are (ussualy) as bloodthirsty and as vengefull as their evil counterparts. Smite happy Paladins with superpowers have ruined about 70% of the games I have participated in or DMed, and I palyed with about 30 groups so far and have introduced about a 100 odd people to D&D. Not only do I not allow the book in my campaign but I have considered to ban the paladin class as well because it is to deterimental to the games and seriously restricts the freedom of other players. It is very difficult to be a rogue with a paladin around you. Thankfully it is easy to make a paladin lose it's abilities, but I don't like drastic measures. So, the question you have presented is a bit more complicated than it seems.
The Vorpal Tribble 10-26-05, 09:33 PM	As an aside, you don't think that Bram Stoker's Dracula romanticizes the vampire? How does it not? I'm thinking of the scene in the forbidden room, where the three female vampires nearly start to feed on poor Jonathan. Or the scene back in England near Carfax when Dracula makes Mina his vampire bride. Or when Lucy has her pleasant dreams while sleepwalking, while Dracula is sucking her dry. Vampires have always, always been very desirable creatures, arousing carnal desires in even the stalwart Dr. Van Helsing (if but for a moment.) How is that romanticizing it? They use their charm to make their victims lie still and then sucks them dry. Thats not romantic... tis quite insect-like in fact. At least 'I' don't find any of that attractive. And Lucy did 'not' have pleasant dreams. She talked about being afraid of her dreams because of the dread and fear it inspired. On the other hand the BoED is seriously fawed in essece because of two philosophical concepts that it is based on. Firstly, it assumes that most people play good characters, or at least think they do, and it gives them way to much firepower and can seriously ruin games. Encouraging powergaming is not promoting goodnes and supporting the ideals of good in my book. But that is a lesser issue. What too much firepower? I've used various feats and PrC's from it and it never came across to me as powergamey in the least. A bigger problem is that it largely has an American outlook of "good", which is considered by the mayority of the non-American world popularion as quite evil. The outlook is simple - if something has a philosophy different than you, you should smite it, for it is evil. Good thing political discussions aren't allowed *HINT HINT* or I'd smite your argument where it stood with laughable ease.
The Vorpal Tribble 10-26-05, 11:29 PM	I'm most certainly a Stake-Driver. In my rp experience everybody plays the damn demon-blooded inuyasha type, the sex-crazy vampire, and goodly-drow renegade type has utterly made me sick! In addition to this its always elves! God I hate those Legolas inspired wanna-bes! Best. Quote. EVER! You've just said everything thats been boiling within my own heart!
ImmortalBlueMage 10-27-05, 01:16 AM	A bigger problem is that it largely has an American outlook of "good", which is considered by the mayority of the non-American world popularion as quite evil. The outlook is simple - if something has a philosophy different than you, you should smite it, for it is evil. The good characters in the book are (ussualy) as bloodthirsty and as vengefull as their evil counterparts. I didn't get that impression at all. I haven't read the Book of Exalted Deeds in a while, but the stuff I remember the most from it is the material on mercy, compassion, honor, fair treatment of enemies, and the merits of redeeming evil instead of always destroying it.
The Vorpal Tribble 10-27-05, 09:46 AM	I didn't get that impression at all. I haven't read the Book of Exalted Deeds in a while, but the stuff I remember the most from it is the material on mercy, compassion, honor, fair treatment of enemies, and the merits of redeeming evil instead of always destroying it. Well... err, yeah, but imagine the suffering that puts all the masochists through! :weep: We don't think of THEIR needs!
Scipion Emilien 10-27-05, 10:38 AM	I didn't get that impression at all. I haven't read the Book of Exalted Deeds in a while, but the stuff I remember the most from it is the material on mercy, compassion, honor, fair treatment of enemies, and the merits of redeeming evil instead of always destroying it. I get the same impression when i was reading it, but my friends who read it get stuck on the "Smite evil" impression. I think this book basically say to you what you want it to say and that is a great problem when the "Smite Evil" bunch read it.
Shaitan0.2beta 10-27-05, 10:59 AM	It is allright when you really pay attention to the mercy and conpassion bits in BoED, but most people don't, not just the "goth's" of the evil playing population. They are just the obvious ones, but most people play "smite first - ask question later" kind of characters, or just have a penchant for mayhem in general and see d&d as a way to vent their "make loony and tasteless" things impulses. It doesn't say "evil" on their char sheets. The first poster has just noticed the ones that are not content to "manifes destiny" on orcs, goblins and whatnot. I had a raging debate about wether it is evil to slaughter kobold children, and there were plenty of people who thought it was perfectly allright to to so, some even claimed that it was for their own good. Incidentaly most of the pro-smite side were from a certain country known for the practice of slavery about 200 odd years ago, not to mention a genocide and plunder of indegineous (spelling?) peoples of the land they (basicly) invaded over a long time. And that's not even getting into the previous century. They thought they were the good guys (some still do) :) Also, dont' worry about shutdown, I had a very wordly discussion here (also about a year ago) about a simmilar issue and we were throwing political stuff around including a lot of controversial faschist types (Hitler, Mussolini, Saddam, both Bushes - the works), and interesting and often accurate observations were made about different countries. I think it is common in the evil/not evil discussions and they only shut it down if it gets realy blown out of proportion.
The Vorpal Tribble 10-27-05, 11:26 AM	a lot of controversial faschist types (Hitler, Mussolini, Saddam, both Bushes - the works) Wow, just can't stop can ya? Anyone who can possibly start comparing the Bushes with Saddam and Hitler is obviously only trying to push their political opinions. This discussion has nothing to do with worldly politics, but your comments are under an assumption that your opinions are correct, and these base opinions are going to have to be argued (which is against the rules) before you can go onto the broader picture.
Shaitan0.2beta 10-27-05, 02:55 PM	I wasn't comparing them now, I was comparing them then. I wanted to say that you can use real world willans to illustrate what evil is. Maby I should not name them but if they are a widely recognised symbol for the characteristics of a willan (or BBEG) it's easier to just type a name. It wasn't banned then. If somebody asks you to give him an idea for a BBEG you might tell him "Think Hitler!" or "Think Stallin!" and he will immideately think of a sadistic, power hungry expansionist with delusions of grandeur eqstended (spelling?) toward his whole nation (except for those members deemed as traitors). BBEG material for sure. I'm not an American, and i have seen often that there are things that are impossible to explain to a lot of Americans thanks to their tradition of brainwashing kids with dogmatic patriotism, not unlike the one my parents endured growing up in Yugoslavia during the 70. (I'm not from the ex-Yugoslavian country that was bombed few years back, no personal grudges here). Thing is, in my country Bush Jr. is a symbol, not as demonic as Hitler or Mussolinni, but of oppresive American imperialism and corruption, not to mention that most people on the street feel sickened to see a man of his capabilities wield so much undeserved power. In general, it is best to avoid talking about America in company, unless you want to be bored to tears by a group rant about that paradoxical nation for the next half-hour. If you think what i just wrote is boring, imagine having to listen to a realy detalied version every time you meet someone you havent discissed it with yet. :)
Mercurius 10-27-05, 04:17 PM	I am primarily a stake-driver. Even played a spunky little Slayer in a B:tVS game a while ago. I like playing the good-guy, even if there are flaws. My current character (I finally got to play, rather than DM) would be good if it wasn't for her history as an assassin and her willingness to kill for money to support her poor sister and nephew. Ideally, she'll manage to claw her way back up to good aligned in a while, but for now she's more than willing enough to compromise her principles if she has to. Unfortunately, I'm seldom able to be the good guy, at least in a full time capacity. I'm the DM most of the time, which means being the devious villain if I'm doing my job right. And I'm dead-good at being evil. Or so I'm told by my players. The ones who figure out what's going on, at least...
The Vorpal Tribble 10-27-05, 04:33 PM	Thing is, in my country Bush Jr. is a symbol, not as demonic as Hitler or Mussolinni, but of oppresive American imperialism and corruption, not to mention that most people on the street feel sickened to see a man of his capabilities wield so much undeserved power. Ignorance and misinformation are a plague that touches all nations apparently. Unfortunately, I'm seldom able to be the good guy, at least in a full time capacity. I'm the DM most of the time, which means being the devious villain if I'm doing my job right. And I'm dead-good at being evil. Or so I'm told by my players. The ones who figure out what's going on, at least... Yeah, all players seem to think the DM is evil, despite how I've seen many bend over backwards to keep their players from dying in a stupid maneuver.
Shaitan0.2beta 10-27-05, 04:42 PM	Heh, try giving them a tough but fair challange, but make it seem insanely difficult (unexpected guerrilla tactics by a bunch of beefy goblin rogues and spellcasters). Imho, when players survive something like that they usually (spelling?) start believing that the DM is helping them out (even if he is not :) )
Mercurius 10-27-05, 05:16 PM	Oh, but I do use very evil villains and ruthless tactics for said villains. My current campaign has several villains, one of whom has dedicated his life to the corruption of others and the conversion of them into followers of his god. While he hasn't managed to work the PCs over too thoroughly, he has put one of them through a fair bit, and he's messed up several previously good NPCs. I've got some other villains who are pretty bad too, and have had memorable villains in the past. I can think evil, and frequently do for the real baddies of my world. I just like playing good guys, even when I was playing in the WoD. That'd probably explain my fascination with the real Salubri clan (as opposed to the darn antitribu in the Sabbat book) as well as some of the other WoD elements that my brain perceived of as less "evil" than others...
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-27-05, 05:47 PM	If you guys want to duke it out over realpolitick, you can do it over at My forums (http://www.ledgermaincomics.com/forum) lets leave that out of here.
Shaitan0.2beta 10-27-05, 07:28 PM	If you guys want to duke it out over realpolitick, you can do it over at My forums (http://www.ledgermaincomics.com/forum) lets leave that out of here. Maybe I do, but I only because Americans are the only nation on earth that has institutionalized the word "offensive", thus making them realy fun and easy to p**s off. Also, a lot of "no mixing real life with d&d" is one of the reasons why the pro-smite bunch misinterpret the meaning of evil, and I strongly feel that paralels and analogies should be presented. The smiters might get uncomfortable when somebody passes them the notion that what they are playing is not a stylish and tenebrous outsider or a righteous crusader of good, but a sociopathic maniac or a genocidal, racistic, radical fundamentalist. In other news, MERCURIUS, try giving them a random, non-focused, not fleshed out challenge like the one I described earlier. An organized band of goblins, with plenty character levels and mean tactics and teamwork, doing something perfectly legal like prospecting or troubleshooting at someones mine. Just don't tell them that the goblins weren't up to no good untill later. The higher level your party is, the better. The hardness of the challenge coupled with the wrongness of their meddling and basicly muder of someone's contracted adventurers will realy make them believe that they didn't deserve to win and that you pulled every shenannigan just to keep them alive. It'll look as if they weren't even ment to fight the gobbos, and that the got their bums kicked (they do win, but it cost's them) because of their own presumptions. It worked for my group, they are so glad to be alive they are considering having the goblins resurected and making an apology. :)
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-27-05, 07:32 PM	Maybe I do, but I only because Americans are the only nation on earth that has institutionalized the word "offensive", thus making them realy fun and easy to p**s off. Also, a lot of "no mixing real life with d&d" is one of the reasons why the pro-smite bunch misinterpret the meaning of evil, and I strongly feel that paralels and analogies should be presented. The smiters might get uncomfortable when somebody passes them the notion that what they are playing is not a stylish and tenebrous outsider or a righteous crusader of good, but a sociopathic maniac or a genocidal, racistic, radical fundamentalist. I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm simply offering a better venue.
Shaitan0.2beta 10-27-05, 07:45 PM	I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm simply offering a better venue. Well I'm all for it, but I have a lot of expirience in debating dogmatic people since my country is ridden with Chatolics, and the level of blind faith and unreasonable argumentation of them and your average American is about the same. No offence ment, it's just an expirienced observation. I had a player who hated half-orcs with insane passion. He never wanted to play with a party that had one in, and even though he claimed that it was beacuse they sucked mechanicly, he'd get real uncomfortable when someone pointed out that he might be a racist. Funny thing was, he was allway telling realy tasteless "n*g*r" jokes in real life, most often repeating the one that the only difference between a negro and a bucket of excrement was the bucket. And then they say that real life shouldn't be discussed in gaming communities. And he is just the top of the iceberg.
feartheinvinceblehamster 10-27-05, 08:02 PM	I usually play [something] neutral with a few good and evil character once in a while. I usually play an elf, dwarf, halfling, or human. I liked the idea behind the BoED, except it seemed really limiting. But that thing is cheese. VoP is insane, and so are a lot of other things in there. But my big beef is with ravages. They're just like poisons, but their holy, y'dig? Haven't really gotten a look at BoVD, but some of the stuff in there is useful and easy to put in your game: Stats for archdevils and demon lords, Feats such as disiciple of darkness or thrall to demon, And new demons. My thing with the BoED is this is how much I disliked it: So i was looking over zaphkiel's stats and I didn't think "Wow, this guy sure is holy" or maybe "boy, does this guy deserve his title" I was thinking "How much Experience will I get?" I read the BoED cover-to-cover, so I am qualified to talk like this about it. A lot of those things(a lot of the "paragons" in paticular) seemed like in excuse to show holy people wearing less than one of the things exalted characters should have, words such as "modesty" come to mind, would require. As a rule, Very few uber-holy people run around naked, it simply isn't in good etiquette or modesty.
zephyrmage42 10-28-05, 11:44 AM	Well I'm all for it, but I have a lot of expirience in debating dogmatic people since my country is ridden with Chatolics, and the level of blind faith and unreasonable argumentation of them and your average American is about the same. No offence ment, it's just an expirienced observation. Without debating actual politics, your argument is painfully easy to destroy. You are essentially saying 'Americans are evil/bad/stupid/etc because they label entire groups of people and go out and conquer them. I, however, can categorize and label them, all the millions of them, because I am astoundingly smart.' Right. So, you aren't American, and apparently live in an ex-Yugoslavian state. My guess is that your "experience" with Americans is some tourists or a trip to New York once. Maybe you even saw some clearly unbiased news reporting from your own country. Feel free to prove me wrong, but since you are not American, and you are labeling all of us as dogmatic and too stupid to think for ourselves I see you as little better than the player you called racist. PS. While I do support America, I obviously don't support everything we do. This, however, is unimportant. If you can disprove what I just said then I would be happy to argue politics or morality with you =). On Topic: One of my favorite characters of mine was a warlock who had had a very evil childhood, including murdering his parents as he acquired his demonic powers. However, he was saved by a paladin that vanquished his demon and was reformed. He spent his adult life controlling inner hate left over from his childhood and battling to save innocent people from other evil creatures so that the same thing wouldnt happen to others.
Shaitan0.2beta 10-28-05, 04:12 PM	Without debating actual politics, your argument is painfully easy to destroy. You are essentially saying 'Americans are evil/bad/stupid/etc because they label entire groups of people and go out and conquer them. I, however, can categorize and label them, all the millions of them, because I am astoundingly smart.' Right. So, you aren't American, and apparently live in an ex-Yugoslavian state. My guess is that your "experience" with Americans is some tourists or a trip to New York once. Maybe you even saw some clearly unbiased news reporting from your own country. Feel free to prove me wrong, but since you are not American, and you are labeling all of us as dogmatic and too stupid to think for ourselves I see you as little better than the player you called racist. First of all, I want to say that there were moments in American history that I consider amazing, and the works of many of your blues, folk and rock singers, including Johnny Cash, Bob Dylan (especialy), Lou Reed, Neil Young (although he is canadian), Bruce Springsteen and groups like the Doors mean more to me then any other countries music, even though, most of the time they pity and critisize America. Second, I have seen American turists from all walks of life, since I dabble quite a lot in politics and hang out a lot. I have seen your marines and, even though they thought they were helpingm my country I have never heard a good word spoken about them from a non-American. Geez, they were in my hometown, and this officer, when asked to show on the map where they he was (where was Croatia, my country) he pointed to Norway which is on the other side of Europe. Little kids in my country know more geography than that. I have had a relationship with a very intelligent girl who had been in America (upstate New York) for a year, and she had nothing good to say about it. My father has been to NY, Cleveland, LA and Washington a few times on bussines and political trips. I know five ex scholarship students, of which one of them spent the previous year in Duke (?), South Carolina. I have two families of relatives, one in Boston, and one in New Jersey. During the early invasion of Iraq, I have mostly watched Fox, and I derived a lot of my opinions based on the speeches of George Bush Jr., some other republican officials, and Arnold Schwarzenegger (I remember one about America needing a strong hand that will cleanse the nation, something like that, all that was missing was Sieg Heil and a raised right hand). Also I have debated with many a zealous American patriot on the net. I don't think I'm inherently smarter than your average American, I just believe I see a much bigger picuture. And that is what is what most people complain about Americans - most of them are insanely insular and unaware that there is a whole wide world out there that the are a laughing stock of.
Callahan 10-28-05, 07:40 PM	Can you do us all a favour and shut up about your stupid American Rant? It's irrelevant, illogical, bias and stupid. Get your own damn thread or simply SHUT UP! I really would not like to see this thread locked because of your trolling. have a nice day :cool:
Shaitan0.2beta 10-28-05, 09:57 PM	I'd realy WOULD like to see this thread locked up, because this is what all good/evil thereads come to. It's all about the perception of evil and good, and that is too often a product of the culture someone was raised in. The books are being published by Americans, and therefore the cannon is influenced by their views. Somebody has acussed me of playing smartass and I was explaining why. It's realy nice to be able to say "Im good, Im good and I hate evil", but philosophers have been busting their heads for centuries, heck, millenia trying to figure out just what good and evil is. Also, check my first post out. It was only 50% "American rant" only people only payed attention to that bit. Curious.
BloodGod 10-28-05, 10:36 PM	I'll just skip over the political talk and insults. I'm sorry if you can't comprehend the rest of my post. I tend to ramble when I try to explain things. I'm a good person. Or, so I like to think. Though, I'm extremely morbid. Now, you have to define evil and morbid, and find the difference between the two. I like looking at pictures of corpses, watching people self mutilate, to witness car accidents, so on and so forth. Now, maybe I'm so morbid because I'm so good. I treat people with as much respect as I can muster, I try to stay open to others' opinions, and I'm generally kind. So, maybe it's because of that usual attitude that I'm silently morbid. And, I believe it's the inner morbidity that draws me to Book of Vile Darkness, and to evil characters. I can't claim that I've ever wanted to play a Drow or Vampire, or any other mentioned races. But, quite a few of my characters have been evil. Playing evil characters let me be what I'm not. I'm not any kind of hopeless romantic, bleeding heart, or otherwise "emo". I've been about as mentally/emotionally abused as anybody else who went to high school. So, I find myself doubting that I'd want some kind of taste of power in game that I can't get out of game. Rather, it's really just that I get to break from the monotony of reality. I wouldn't want to be evil in real life. But, it's fun to get away from always being the bad guy. Thus, I'd define myself as a passer-by, a witness, or a victim. I'm not on either end of the stake driver - blood sucker spectrum. (Don't worry! I'll shut up soon!) Finally, why complain about cliches? If it makes someone happy to play that drow, that vampire, that demonic character, I say let them. If they want to rip off LoTR characters, I've got no problem with that. Afterall, this is a game, isn't it? -BG
Shaitan0.2beta 10-28-05, 10:50 PM	Wait! Don't openly confess opinions that someone might find offensive, they'll lock the thread! :D
Draktaven 10-28-05, 11:37 PM	Also, check my first post out. It was only 50% "American rant" only people only payed attention to that bit. Curious. Because thats the part that is offensive and against the CoC Anyhoo..... For me it depends on the mood Im in. Its hard for me to play a seriously bad guy, because I start to think about the people Iv just screwed over. When I play evil, its usually a Lawful evil person, I dont like stealing from peasants who will die over the winter because I stole thier life savings that I ended up spending on a new sattle or pair of boots. If I play evil its usually just the methods by which I accomplish my goals. Maybe I raise all the people I kill and have them guard my tower, or maybe sending some one to the 8th layer of hell will convince his friends to be more cooperative, but I just cant take it apon myself to kill the helpless or innocent.
Callahan 10-29-05, 01:26 AM	Yeah I know what you mean. This one time we tried an utterly evil group where everyone was at least Neutral Evil, well it's all fun to boast and stuff but once you've locked the entire town in a church and set it on fire you start having a real problem with tossing the kids back in the windows that their parents have managed to squeeze them out of. It is just a game but you tend to put yourself too much in to it when roleplaying...
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-29-05, 02:42 AM	Yeah I know what you mean. This one time we tried an utterly evil group where everyone was at least Neutral Evil, well it's all fun to boast and stuff but once you've locked the entire town in a church and set it on fire you start having a real problem with tossing the kids back in the windows that their parents have managed to squeeze them out of. :bored: Have you ever played evil that didn't utterly lack a superego and sense of self preservation?
Callahan 10-29-05, 03:03 AM	:bored: Have you ever played evil that didn't utterly lack a superego and sense of self preservation? Several campaigns and of course when I DM. This was a rare example when things just got out of hand. You gotta have a Kobold-are-your-baby campaign once in a while. But even when I DM I’ve never gotten to that baby burning stage of super evil(thank you Alexander Nevski) after that experience.
zephyrmage42 10-29-05, 01:52 PM	I think the problem with talks like this is that in D&D good and evil are actually tangible elements. Belief systems only do so much when something is physically, actually evil. This isnt our world, this is fantasy world, at a certain point the real world cannot explain fantasy. I would be happy to put the below into spoiler, if I knew how. First of all, I want to say that there were moments in American history that I consider amazing, and the works of many of your blues, folk and rock singers, including Johnny Cash, Bob Dylan (especialy), Lou Reed, Neil Young (although he is canadian), Bruce Springsteen and groups like the Doors mean more to me then any other countries music, even though, most of the time they pity and critisize America. Getting closer. The problem is, these people do not speak for America. My main problem with Hollywood is that actors and musicians think that because we pay them to look pretty and entertain us that they have license to talk about their political views like they are any more educated that the rest of us, which they mainly are not. Church of Scientology anyone? Second, I have seen American turists from all walks of life, since I dabble quite a lot in politics and hang out a lot. I have seen your marines and, even though they thought they were helpingm my country I have never heard a good word spoken about them from a non-American. Geez, they were in my hometown, and this officer, when asked to show on the map where they he was (where was Croatia, my country) he pointed to Norway which is on the other side of Europe. Little kids in my country know more geography than that. 1)Tourists again, do not speak for Americans as a whole. People act quite differently in different countries. I seriously doubt they knew your local or county's customs, so they probably looked abnormally silly or unintelligent. So would you in most American cities probably, thats just how it is. 2)You admit that marines are in your country to help it, but yet barely give them any credit. Why? Sounds like bitterness to me. They voluntarily signed up to risk their lives, and now they are in a country they are not familiar with helping people who apparently don't appreciate it. Tangent: Which country gives the vast majority of foreign aid? The United States 3)I bet if you were in the military and they told you that you where being shipped to some country in Africa and a child from a village asked you to point out your location on a map you would probably not be able to do it. Neither would I, or most people. That marine was just shipped to another continent, I think its atleast somewhat understandable. I have had a relationship with a very intelligent girl who had been in America (upstate New York) for a year, and she had nothing good to say about it. My father has been to NY, Cleveland, LA and Washington a few times on bussines and political trips. I know five ex scholarship students, of which one of them spent the previous year in Duke (?), South Carolina. I have two families of relatives, one in Boston, and one in New Jersey. Thats about 20 people you have met then, tops, since you do not mention actually going to America yourself. According to the latest census, there are 281,421,906 people in America (http://censtats.census.gov/data/US/01000.pdf). That means that you have personally met a whopping 0.0000071 percent of the American population. During the early invasion of Iraq, I have mostly watched Fox, and I derived a lot of my opinions based on the speeches of George Bush Jr., some other republican officials, and Arnold Schwarzenegger (I remember one about America needing a strong hand that will cleanse the nation, something like that, all that was missing was Sieg Heil and a raised right hand). I would like to see a quote of that, if possible. Also, Arnold is only the governor of California. However, if you looked at his approval ratings and what he has done for the state, you might be surprised. I was very skeptical when they elected him, but it appears he exceeded my expectations. Also, any speeches you watched by our president were clearly already colored by your perceptions (as everyone's would be). Did you know that one of the main opponents to the invasion of Iraq was Russia, and that they had illegal trade agreements with Iraq? No one is perfect, not our government, not yours. Lots of countries like to point at America and blame them. Also I have debated with many a zealous American patriot on the net. I don't think I'm inherently smarter than your average American, I just believe I see a much bigger picuture. And that is what is what most people complain about Americans - most of them are insanely insular and unaware that there is a whole wide world out there that the are a laughing stock of. Zealous patriots do not speak for all of America either. Why do you feel qualified to judhe the average American. How do you feel qualified to make snap judgements about 281 million people? Again, you look down on your racist friend, but then see no problem with this. I think you have little idea about the average American, or the vast diversity in America.
The Vorpal Tribble 10-31-05, 10:48 PM	Ok, I'm sorry, but I couldn't ignore this any longer... I like looking at pictures of corpses, watching people self mutilate, to witness car accidents, so on and so forth. Now, maybe I'm so morbid because I'm so good. This is not good or bad in and of itself, but sick. Anyone who can get joy from this has a psychological imbalance, or they are just trying to shock folks. I have three words that should kill all enjoyment you get from those: The Victim's Family Think about them. They weren't entertained.