Bluff Advise [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bluff Advise [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mywurld
04-21-04, 11:51 AM I am trying to come up with a good way to con a merchant into beleiving that I have enough gold to purchase a hat of disguise. I currently have about 1200 gold to spend and the hat is 1800. I don't think I can convince him to sell it for 600 less. So I am trying to figure out the best way to con him into selling me the hat. I am a rogue so spells are not an option for me. I am currently separated from my party and need the hat before I can rejoin them.
kliate
04-21-04, 12:16 PM There are tons of ways to either get the cash, or make it look like you have it:

1) Forge a credit note from a wealthy, respected individual (saying that they'll pick up the tab and deal with the collection)
2) See if you can acquire a real credit note from a wealthy, respected individual (similar to the above)
3) Pick pockets. You're a rogue desperate for cash - so go get it!
4) Challenge the shopkeep to a game of chance for the balance. If you lose, find some way to work it off.
5) Take on odd-jobs around town for cash
6) Offer another possession for barter or even collateral
7) Did you take any ranks in Use Magic Device? If so - get a scroll of charm person and discuss with a more friendly shopkeep.
Zherog
04-21-04, 12:17 PM Start picking pockets. :D

I'm not particularly clear what you are trying to bluff. Are you just trying to convince the merchant you can afford the hat? In other words, "I'd like you to find me a Hat of Disguise. Here's half the cash now, and I'll pay the other half upon delivery." That really shouldn't be a hard bluff to make.

On the other hand, are you trying to bluff the merchant into only accepting 1200GP for the hat? In that case, I don't think Bluff is the appropriate skill; I think Diplomacy is more appropriate, and it's an opposed roll.

I guess my problem is I don't see what good it does to make the merchant believe you can afford the hat, unless later you're planning on stealing the hat.
Mywurld
04-21-04, 12:36 PM I am trying to make the merchant accept only 1200 gp for the hat by any way possible. I am in a bad town to be picking pockets theft is punishable by death, but only if I get caught. I am also in a hurry, I was separated from my party and need to meet them but I had a hat of disguise to start with and do not want to reveal my true identity to them. The first one was stolen but I was unconcious so I didn't see who took it.
Zherog
04-21-04, 12:47 PM I don't think you're going to be able to use bluff to get the hat. Here's some things to try:

See if there is some service you could do for the merchant, that would be worth at least 600 GP to him Forge something (as kliate suggested). A letter of credit, or note from a noble should be effective (albeit dangerous) Buy a scroll of Charm Person, then convince your "friend" the merchant that you need to borrow the hat "for just a few minutes" Steal the hat - but only if you plan on never going back to that town. Offer something else in trade for the remaining 600 GP (other than the service I mentioned in the first point)
Mywurld
04-21-04, 01:18 PM ok, so if I buy a charm person scroll that would make his attitude friendly towrds me, correct? But to get this to work I would need to buy the scroll, make a UMD check to even cast the spell, hope he fails his will save and make another roll that the DM requires to see if the spell gets cast successfully(magic is not garuanteed to work properly in this city).

Wouldn't it be easier to use Diplomacy as you suggested previously? I would imagine that a merchants attitude would be indifferent to someone looking to buy something. So I would only need to make 1 roll to change his attitude to friendly with this check and as you said there is no opposing roll.
Zherog
04-21-04, 01:32 PM Well, the extra roll may indeed make Charm Person a bad option. It was just one option. ;)

You could indeed try a Diplomacy roll to change his attitude towards friendly. He may start off as unfriendly, though, depending on what he knows about you, etc. If he's never seen you before, and you seem to want to conduct business, then yes - I'd say he'd start off indifferent. If you've purchased stuff from him in the past, been honest about those purchases, etc then he might start off even better for you. If you've already tried to swindle him, he might start of unfriendly.
Mywurld
04-21-04, 01:45 PM Thanks for the help, I am going to go with the Diplomacy, I have not done business with him in the past so I would hope that he is indifferent towards me to start with.

Once I change his attitude, should I begin to bargain with him or ask to borrow the hat for a few minutes and then leave. If I borrow it should I make some type of good faith jester like here's a 1000 gold I'll give you the rest after I try it out.
Zherog
04-21-04, 01:59 PM Well, remember - just because he's your friend doesn't mean he's a sucker. ;) It'll be up to your DM to decide if the merchant would "loan" the Hat to a good friend or not.

Were I your DM, leaving behind 1000 GP wouldn't help one way or another - it's not enough to cover my losses.

If I were going to do this as a player, first I'd make sure the merchant saw me as friendly. You can accomplish this through Diplomacy; you can augment this by purchasing other items from him.

Once I was pretty sure he thought of me as a friend, I would then bluff him into believing I wanted to borrow the hat - "only for an hour or so, while I play a prank on this friend of mine!"

Hopefully, the merchant doesn't ask to watch the prank in action. :) Also, remember that you'll pretty much never be able to go back to that city again. Friend or not, after you don't return the Hat, the merchant is going to go to the guard.
Mywurld
04-21-04, 02:23 PM Well that works out well because I can disguise myself before going in and the guard is probably the worst thing in the city. They are corrupt and can be bought off rather easily. Once I have the hat the merchant will never see what I truly look like, since even with the hat I use a non magic disguise just incase something goes wrong.

Thanks for all the help, I will let you know how things worked out tomorrow. Hopefully I won't be asking for advice on a new character, lol.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mywurld 04-21-04, 11:51 AM	I am trying to come up with a good way to con a merchant into beleiving that I have enough gold to purchase a hat of disguise. I currently have about 1200 gold to spend and the hat is 1800. I don't think I can convince him to sell it for 600 less. So I am trying to figure out the best way to con him into selling me the hat. I am a rogue so spells are not an option for me. I am currently separated from my party and need the hat before I can rejoin them.
kliate 04-21-04, 12:16 PM	There are tons of ways to either get the cash, or make it look like you have it: 1) Forge a credit note from a wealthy, respected individual (saying that they'll pick up the tab and deal with the collection) 2) See if you can acquire a real credit note from a wealthy, respected individual (similar to the above) 3) Pick pockets. You're a rogue desperate for cash - so go get it! 4) Challenge the shopkeep to a game of chance for the balance. If you lose, find some way to work it off. 5) Take on odd-jobs around town for cash 6) Offer another possession for barter or even collateral 7) Did you take any ranks in Use Magic Device? If so - get a scroll of charm person and discuss with a more friendly shopkeep.
Zherog 04-21-04, 12:17 PM	Start picking pockets. :D I'm not particularly clear what you are trying to bluff. Are you just trying to convince the merchant you can afford the hat? In other words, "I'd like you to find me a Hat of Disguise. Here's half the cash now, and I'll pay the other half upon delivery." That really shouldn't be a hard bluff to make. On the other hand, are you trying to bluff the merchant into only accepting 1200GP for the hat? In that case, I don't think Bluff is the appropriate skill; I think Diplomacy is more appropriate, and it's an opposed roll. I guess my problem is I don't see what good it does to make the merchant believe you can afford the hat, unless later you're planning on stealing the hat.
Mywurld 04-21-04, 12:36 PM	I am trying to make the merchant accept only 1200 gp for the hat by any way possible. I am in a bad town to be picking pockets theft is punishable by death, but only if I get caught. I am also in a hurry, I was separated from my party and need to meet them but I had a hat of disguise to start with and do not want to reveal my true identity to them. The first one was stolen but I was unconcious so I didn't see who took it.
Zherog 04-21-04, 12:47 PM	I don't think you're going to be able to use bluff to get the hat. Here's some things to try: See if there is some service you could do for the merchant, that would be worth at least 600 GP to him Forge something (as kliate suggested). A letter of credit, or note from a noble should be effective (albeit dangerous) Buy a scroll of Charm Person, then convince your "friend" the merchant that you need to borrow the hat "for just a few minutes" Steal the hat - but only if you plan on never going back to that town. Offer something else in trade for the remaining 600 GP (other than the service I mentioned in the first point)
Mywurld 04-21-04, 01:18 PM	ok, so if I buy a charm person scroll that would make his attitude friendly towrds me, correct? But to get this to work I would need to buy the scroll, make a UMD check to even cast the spell, hope he fails his will save and make another roll that the DM requires to see if the spell gets cast successfully(magic is not garuanteed to work properly in this city). Wouldn't it be easier to use Diplomacy as you suggested previously? I would imagine that a merchants attitude would be indifferent to someone looking to buy something. So I would only need to make 1 roll to change his attitude to friendly with this check and as you said there is no opposing roll.
Zherog 04-21-04, 01:32 PM	Well, the extra roll may indeed make Charm Person a bad option. It was just one option. ;) You could indeed try a Diplomacy roll to change his attitude towards friendly. He may start off as unfriendly, though, depending on what he knows about you, etc. If he's never seen you before, and you seem to want to conduct business, then yes - I'd say he'd start off indifferent. If you've purchased stuff from him in the past, been honest about those purchases, etc then he might start off even better for you. If you've already tried to swindle him, he might start of unfriendly.
Mywurld 04-21-04, 01:45 PM	Thanks for the help, I am going to go with the Diplomacy, I have not done business with him in the past so I would hope that he is indifferent towards me to start with. Once I change his attitude, should I begin to bargain with him or ask to borrow the hat for a few minutes and then leave. If I borrow it should I make some type of good faith jester like here's a 1000 gold I'll give you the rest after I try it out.
Zherog 04-21-04, 01:59 PM	Well, remember - just because he's your friend doesn't mean he's a sucker. ;) It'll be up to your DM to decide if the merchant would "loan" the Hat to a good friend or not. Were I your DM, leaving behind 1000 GP wouldn't help one way or another - it's not enough to cover my losses. If I were going to do this as a player, first I'd make sure the merchant saw me as friendly. You can accomplish this through Diplomacy; you can augment this by purchasing other items from him. Once I was pretty sure he thought of me as a friend, I would then bluff him into believing I wanted to borrow the hat - "only for an hour or so, while I play a prank on this friend of mine!" Hopefully, the merchant doesn't ask to watch the prank in action. :) Also, remember that you'll pretty much never be able to go back to that city again. Friend or not, after you don't return the Hat, the merchant is going to go to the guard.
Mywurld 04-21-04, 02:23 PM	Well that works out well because I can disguise myself before going in and the guard is probably the worst thing in the city. They are corrupt and can be bought off rather easily. Once I have the hat the merchant will never see what I truly look like, since even with the hat I use a non magic disguise just incase something goes wrong. Thanks for all the help, I will let you know how things worked out tomorrow. Hopefully I won't be asking for advice on a new character, lol.