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Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dragon Friendly dm
01-20-04, 03:50 PM my group and i want to start playing without a board and just acting out the adventure. I was just wondering if any of you have done so before. if so how did it work out? Did you find it harder or easier than using a board?
Tenzhi
01-20-04, 04:02 PM If by "board" you mean a grid and miniatures, I've always run it that way.

It's easy as heck for me, but I've got a number of house rules that facilitate the ease - most notably I've thrown out Attacks of Opportunity altogether.

If you mean something else by "board" you'll have to elaborate as there are no other "boards" that I can think of offhand that one would use to play D&D.
q'afuu
01-20-04, 04:24 PM I don't use a grid in my group, except under certain circumstances (too many characters involved). IMX, playing without a grid makes combat more fluid. The players don't take time trying to figure out the best move three rounds ahead, they simply do what seems best and get on with it. It also cancels out irregularities with diagonal distances and such.
WizO_Sith
01-20-04, 09:09 PM Moved to D&D General.

*Bamf*
Luris_Blear
01-20-04, 09:13 PM As much as I've enjoyed learning to paint minis, I've never used one.

Even my online play has always been run with an old-style "mind's eye" and descriptive plotting of who is in what posotion.
Solaris
01-21-04, 01:26 AM Well, this is refreshing. Lots of D&D3'ers on these boards have been telling me that the way I've been playing D&D for 20 years is, in fact, impossible. Nice to see some others do it too.
Mister Mayhem
01-21-04, 02:21 AM Minis and Maps in any RPG are an optional extra. An extra I choose to use, but I'd harldy say they were essential.

It's not even necessary to throw out attacks of opportunity.

It does require that the PCs are sensible and trust the DM - and PCs of that nature don't really need the AoO rules in the first place, so I can see why you might choose to toss them.
Tenzhi
01-21-04, 03:04 AM Originally posted by Mister Mayhem
It's not even necessary to throw out attacks of opportunity.

It does require that the PCs are sensible and trust the DM - and PCs of that nature don't really need the AoO rules in the first place, so I can see why you might choose to toss them.

Yeah, I was using them (AoOs) at first, but there were few definitive situations (other than spellcasting) where they came up. As I was annoyed at the speed of spellcasting anyway, I eventually decided to throw out AoOs altogether and relegate spellcasting to a full-round action (quickened to a normal action).

All for naught, really, as now I'm doing a rather large rewrite to fix a number of other things that have begun to annoy me (still keeping the basic d20 system, though).
channel_dunlap
01-21-04, 05:01 AM I never understood the big deal with miniatures and such. The only time we break out our grid is if there are many creatures in a battle (usually 5 or more), other than that its really pretty simple. "I charge the thing" usually covers it.

Though, I must say, I was pleased to see that grid in the back of the 3.5 DMG, even if it is just paper and not anything special, it saved me from having to go out and spend money on something I rarely use.
JonnyTuba
01-21-04, 06:39 AM I have never used miniatures in a roleplaying games. Really don't understand the need to do so.

Jonny T.
Biggen Gurble
01-21-04, 12:08 PM "I have never used miniatures in a roleplaying games. Really don't understand the need to do so."

Four characters walk into a room, there are 9 goblins. You attack, you hit one, but don't kill him. You hit another and another and another, but don't kill them, How exactly do you know which ones have been hit, and which ones haven't?

Don't get me wrong. I have been playing since first edition and never used a battle mat until third edition. But from a tatical stand point, it cannot be beat.

I only give you this example beacuse I remember A2 I believe, "Slavers Stockade" where you come upon a torture chamber of like 20 goblins some bugbears and worgs. I remember:

Well I attack one. Then another, not ever knowing wether he was next to me or further away. Wait, the wizard casts Fireball. Who is in the radius? Who isn't?

Me thinks that those who don't like it, really don't like the idea of DnD being a tactical game
also in addition to a roleplaying game. Somehow the two cannot coincide.

I have played without a mat, it is great for your imagination, but you and the guy next to you don't have the same imagination, hence you are both not seeing the same thing.

I use a mat\board and I like it. We use mini's because of the same reason. I like the tactical aspect of the game now.

All I can say is try it both ways and see which is easier for you.
q'afuu
01-21-04, 02:53 PM Originally posted by Biggen Gurble
Four characters walk into a room, there are 9 goblins. You attack, you hit one, but don't kill him. You hit another and another and another, but don't kill them, How exactly do you know which ones have been hit, and which ones haven't?
I can only speak for myself, but I always have a list of all characters involved with their combat-relevant stats on paper. This allows me to keep note of initiative, HP, special conditions, etc. That's sufficient for me, up to 15-20 characters. And even when I do use a grid, I need that list more. I can keep track of positions in my head, especially with a few notes and indications on paper, but I can't keep track of 20 characters' worth of HPs, initiatives, combat mods and whatnot.
Biggen Gurble
01-21-04, 03:07 PM And I use the same type of paper. Has everything on it I may need, from saving throws to HP to AC, and even the most commmonly used skills. But the sheet doesn't help me when trying to figure out area effects, who is effected, how far someone is away for a ranges attack.....there are a lot of things a mat helps with.
Tenzhi
01-22-04, 12:52 AM Originally posted by Biggen Gurble
I have played without a mat, it is great for your imagination, but you and the guy next to you don't have the same imagination, hence you are both not seeing the same thing.

Which is kind of like reading a book. No two people will imagine the scenarios in the book in exactly the same way. Going with this analogy, using a battle mat and minis is like watching a movie - everyone watching will see nearly the same thing.

And I use the same type of paper. Has everything on it I may need, from saving throws to HP to AC, and even the most commmonly used skills. But the sheet doesn't help me when trying to figure out area effects, who is effected, how far someone is away for a ranges attack.....

Who's in the area effect? Whoever the DM says is in the area effect. Ranged attacks? They're either close enough to hit or they aren't depending upon the DM's judgement. For this sort of "fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants" game to work, though, the players have to be able to implicitly trust their DM not to purposefully screw them over. If my players can't trust me, then I don't want to DM for them anyway - I find that a game without trust becomes a tiresome contest of wills which defeats the purpose of the game for me. (Which is not to say that a game with miniatures lacks Player~DM trust - a game with miniatures works with or without trust, a game without miniatures only works well in the former case.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dragon Friendly dm 01-20-04, 03:50 PM	my group and i want to start playing without a board and just acting out the adventure. I was just wondering if any of you have done so before. if so how did it work out? Did you find it harder or easier than using a board?
Tenzhi 01-20-04, 04:02 PM	If by "board" you mean a grid and miniatures, I've always run it that way. It's easy as heck for me, but I've got a number of house rules that facilitate the ease - most notably I've thrown out Attacks of Opportunity altogether. If you mean something else by "board" you'll have to elaborate as there are no other "boards" that I can think of offhand that one would use to play D&D.
q'afuu 01-20-04, 04:24 PM	I don't use a grid in my group, except under certain circumstances (too many characters involved). IMX, playing without a grid makes combat more fluid. The players don't take time trying to figure out the best move three rounds ahead, they simply do what seems best and get on with it. It also cancels out irregularities with diagonal distances and such.
WizO_Sith 01-20-04, 09:09 PM	Moved to D&D General. Bamf
Luris_Blear 01-20-04, 09:13 PM	As much as I've enjoyed learning to paint minis, I've never used one. Even my online play has always been run with an old-style "mind's eye" and descriptive plotting of who is in what posotion.
Solaris 01-21-04, 01:26 AM	Well, this is refreshing. Lots of D&D3'ers on these boards have been telling me that the way I've been playing D&D for 20 years is, in fact, impossible. Nice to see some others do it too.
Mister Mayhem 01-21-04, 02:21 AM	Minis and Maps in any RPG are an optional extra. An extra I choose to use, but I'd harldy say they were essential. It's not even necessary to throw out attacks of opportunity. It does require that the PCs are sensible and trust the DM - and PCs of that nature don't really need the AoO rules in the first place, so I can see why you might choose to toss them.
Tenzhi 01-21-04, 03:04 AM	Originally posted by Mister Mayhem It's not even necessary to throw out attacks of opportunity. It does require that the PCs are sensible and trust the DM - and PCs of that nature don't really need the AoO rules in the first place, so I can see why you might choose to toss them. Yeah, I was using them (AoOs) at first, but there were few definitive situations (other than spellcasting) where they came up. As I was annoyed at the speed of spellcasting anyway, I eventually decided to throw out AoOs altogether and relegate spellcasting to a full-round action (quickened to a normal action). All for naught, really, as now I'm doing a rather large rewrite to fix a number of other things that have begun to annoy me (still keeping the basic d20 system, though).
channel_dunlap 01-21-04, 05:01 AM	I never understood the big deal with miniatures and such. The only time we break out our grid is if there are many creatures in a battle (usually 5 or more), other than that its really pretty simple. "I charge the thing" usually covers it. Though, I must say, I was pleased to see that grid in the back of the 3.5 DMG, even if it is just paper and not anything special, it saved me from having to go out and spend money on something I rarely use.
JonnyTuba 01-21-04, 06:39 AM	I have never used miniatures in a roleplaying games. Really don't understand the need to do so. Jonny T.
Biggen Gurble 01-21-04, 12:08 PM	"I have never used miniatures in a roleplaying games. Really don't understand the need to do so." Four characters walk into a room, there are 9 goblins. You attack, you hit one, but don't kill him. You hit another and another and another, but don't kill them, How exactly do you know which ones have been hit, and which ones haven't? Don't get me wrong. I have been playing since first edition and never used a battle mat until third edition. But from a tatical stand point, it cannot be beat. I only give you this example beacuse I remember A2 I believe, "Slavers Stockade" where you come upon a torture chamber of like 20 goblins some bugbears and worgs. I remember: Well I attack one. Then another, not ever knowing wether he was next to me or further away. Wait, the wizard casts Fireball. Who is in the radius? Who isn't? Me thinks that those who don't like it, really don't like the idea of DnD being a tactical game also in addition to a roleplaying game. Somehow the two cannot coincide. I have played without a mat, it is great for your imagination, but you and the guy next to you don't have the same imagination, hence you are both not seeing the same thing. I use a mat\board and I like it. We use mini's because of the same reason. I like the tactical aspect of the game now. All I can say is try it both ways and see which is easier for you.
q'afuu 01-21-04, 02:53 PM	Originally posted by Biggen Gurble Four characters walk into a room, there are 9 goblins. You attack, you hit one, but don't kill him. You hit another and another and another, but don't kill them, How exactly do you know which ones have been hit, and which ones haven't? I can only speak for myself, but I always have a list of all characters involved with their combat-relevant stats on paper. This allows me to keep note of initiative, HP, special conditions, etc. That's sufficient for me, up to 15-20 characters. And even when I do use a grid, I need that list more. I can keep track of positions in my head, especially with a few notes and indications on paper, but I can't keep track of 20 characters' worth of HPs, initiatives, combat mods and whatnot.
Biggen Gurble 01-21-04, 03:07 PM	And I use the same type of paper. Has everything on it I may need, from saving throws to HP to AC, and even the most commmonly used skills. But the sheet doesn't help me when trying to figure out area effects, who is effected, how far someone is away for a ranges attack.....there are a lot of things a mat helps with.
Tenzhi 01-22-04, 12:52 AM	Originally posted by Biggen Gurble I have played without a mat, it is great for your imagination, but you and the guy next to you don't have the same imagination, hence you are both not seeing the same thing. Which is kind of like reading a book. No two people will imagine the scenarios in the book in exactly the same way. Going with this analogy, using a battle mat and minis is like watching a movie - everyone watching will see nearly the same thing. And I use the same type of paper. Has everything on it I may need, from saving throws to HP to AC, and even the most commmonly used skills. But the sheet doesn't help me when trying to figure out area effects, who is effected, how far someone is away for a ranges attack..... Who's in the area effect? Whoever the DM says is in the area effect. Ranged attacks? They're either close enough to hit or they aren't depending upon the DM's judgement. For this sort of "fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants" game to work, though, the players have to be able to implicitly trust their DM not to purposefully screw them over. If my players can't trust me, then I don't want to DM for them anyway - I find that a game without trust becomes a tiresome contest of wills which defeats the purpose of the game for me. (Which is not to say that a game with miniatures lacks Player~DM trust - a game with miniatures works with or without trust, a game without miniatures only works well in the former case.)