BOED 'mature' mystery [Archive] - Wizards Community

BOED 'mature' mystery [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Urithair
09-16-06, 12:36 PM I've seen a lot of people post that the BOED has the 'mature audiences only' sticker because it contains deep and complex roleplaying elements that the 'typical' DnD player is incapable of playing correctly. I'm not saying that point is invalid (neither am I supporting it). What I am saying is that the book has two pictures of 'naked boobies' in it and therefore is required by US law to warn the consumer, lest little Jonny by corrupted by full frontal snake person or side shot flying bird lady.
Mystic Lemur
09-16-06, 12:45 PM I think it has more to do with the BoED and BoVD laying out a concrete idea of right vs. wrong. That is definitely a no-no in modern society. They don't want to get sued, so they put a 'mature' label on it so that they can claim they warned people and didn't tell anyone to act in any specific way.
Titan W
09-16-06, 12:52 PM Also nudity isn't considered profane if it has "artistic value" in the united states (As set by supreme court pescident) and thus most drawings that involve nudity in an non-sexual manner are usually considered free speech. The other reason was that it would make a good selling point, but as the previous person said it was mostly to do with morality being described in the concrete and absolute.
a_psh
09-16-06, 01:10 PM Simple: if you're gonna make a book and market it heavily as "mature" and risque (BoVD), you're kinda stuck having to do that with its companion peice (BoED), too.

I don't think that label has anything to do with the ideas therein because books like Heroes of Horror, which definitely has some nasty ideas in it (the little aside about mind flayers alone is already deeper and more disturbing than the entire BoVD). The "mature" label seems to reflect not content, but presentation: the prurient obsession with sex and gore that defines the BoVD. By this standard, the BoED doesn't deserve one.
Luis_Carlos
09-16-06, 01:28 PM Perhaps because it has some...inspirations from religious parts, like the Gnosticism, and there is some pages talking about morality.

Religion and politics are very contrersial topics. I can insure it.

For example, to explain it better..... Imagine if a DM creates a satirical adventure about a fresh hafling chased by the orcs, drows, githyankis or hobgoblins... because he drawed a satirical cartoon of Saruman, Sauron, Lolh, Gruumsh or Hextor Somebody from the real world could take it personally and get offended, or you can be acussed of subliminal ideological proselytism by means of subtext.
eca
09-16-06, 01:45 PM D&D has always been riddled with controversy. (sp?) Books with information about demons and devils, along with drug use if I'm not mistaken, would probably be assulted by the "moraly perfect" politicians who would never think to read a book befor they judge it as the devils work...
rivaltuna
09-16-06, 02:07 PM D&D has always been riddled with controversy. (sp?) Books with information about demons and devils, along with drug use if I'm not mistaken, would probably be assulted by the "moraly perfect" politicians who would never think to read a book befor they judge it as the devils work...
Like Jack T. Chick :D
OneWinged4ngel
09-16-06, 02:20 PM I think it has more to do with the BoED and BoVD laying out a concrete idea of right vs. wrong. That is definitely a no-no in modern society. They don't want to get sued, so they put a 'mature' label on it so that they can claim they warned people and didn't tell anyone to act in any specific way.

Too bad the 'concrete' ideas laid out are self-contradictory and not really deontological...

'else it might have done something to clear up alignment.

Anyways... the label is because D&D has been the target of some... definitely unwarranted controversy in the past, like saying we're all practicioners of witchcraft or can't be in touch with reality, etc etc... *cough*Jack T Chick*cough*
Luis_Carlos
09-16-06, 02:50 PM ....can't be in touch with reality, etc etc... *cough*Jack T Chick*cough*

"Fantasy is just a sweet way to get closer to reality" ~ Michael Ende.

I agree. I myself want using the rich mitologhy of D&D to make a subtle satire about certain predjuces of the real wolrd.

¨Lolh is peace, and the drows is peaceful people...(but when you draw their goddess in cartoons)¨:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

I thinking in creating a new race of living contructs, some like the cylons of the Galactica: Batlestar reboot, and the borgs from Star Treck, that sometimes they do....... very bad things, but if you do a critical comments about them then you are acussed droidphobia wanted exterminated whole no-pure humans..... Too I want creating a nPC, a populist hogoblings tribal leader who with victimism demagogy declares the war against... the ¨exploiters¨ metalic dragons, for example..
OneWinged4ngel
09-16-06, 02:52 PM "Artists use lies to tell the truth; politicians use the truth to tell lies."
FeceMan
09-16-06, 03:00 PM I don't think that label has anything to do with the ideas therein because books like Heroes of Horror, which definitely has some nasty ideas in it (the little aside about mind flayers alone is already deeper and more disturbing than the entire BoVD).
Elaborate, please.

Or give page number.
Vaalingrade Ashland
09-16-06, 03:48 PM Poorly thought out discussion about morality is a subject best left to people mature enough to make fun of it.
a_psh
09-16-06, 04:46 PM Elaborate, please.

Or give page number.The specific thing I was refering to is page 137, under "Example: Alien Motives", wherein mind flayers compensate for their atrophied physical senses by using dominated humans to experience all of the pains and pleasures of the flesh. The book doesn't revel in it and obsess about it the way the BoVD does, but there's pretty twisted things in there (as befits a horror book). No "mature" label. I thus conclude that ideas alone are not enough to warrant such a label by WotC's standards.
feartheinvinceblehamster
09-16-06, 04:50 PM Perhaps because it has some...inspirations from religious parts, like the Gnosticism, and there is some pages talking about morality.

Religion and politics are very contrersial topics. I can insure it.

For example, to explain it better.....Imagine if a DM creates a satirical adventure about a fresh hafling chased by the orcs, drows, githyankis or hobgoblins... because he drawed a satirical cartoon of Saruman, Sauron, Lolh, Gruumsh or Hextor Somebody from the real world could take it personally and get offended, or you can be acussed of subliminal ideological proselytism by means of subtext.

Just felt as though it should not be "spoilered" like it is something awful or spoiling.

Besides, Look at the Necronimicon: All kinds of gore and disgusting necromantic spells in there, but it's not slapped "mature". I think it's honestly more of a marketing ploy. They figure more people will buy it if it is a "taboo". It's like the Roleplaying equivelent of GTA.

Poorly thought out discussion about morality is a subject best left to people mature enough to make fun of it.
Do you ever get tired of being right all of the time?
FeceMan
09-16-06, 05:15 PM The specific thing I was refering to is page 137, under "Example: Alien Motives", wherein mind flayers compensate for their atrophied physical senses by using dominated humans to experience all of the pains and pleasures of the flesh. The book doesn't revel in it and obsess about it the way the BoVD does, but there's pretty twisted things in there (as befits a horror book). No "mature" label. I thus conclude that ideas alone are not enough to warrant such a label by WotC's standards.
Ah.

That is pretty twisted.

Twisted AWESOME.
Solaris
09-16-06, 08:55 PM Boobies and themes + http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cover_your_ass
a_psh
09-16-06, 10:17 PM Ah.

That is pretty twisted.

Twisted AWESOME.Yeah. I think putting a veteran D&D designer together with some veteran horror designers was a great idea.

You agree that it completely nukes the justification of "mature" labels as being somehow based on a careful evaluation of the actual content of a book, ne?
Tuskin_Raider
09-16-06, 11:14 PM Poorly thought out discussion about morality is a subject best left to people mature enough to make fun of it.

Epic Level Wisdom.
FeceMan
09-17-06, 02:02 AM Yeah. I think putting a veteran D&D designer together with some veteran horror designers was a great idea.

You agree that it completely nukes the justification of "mature" labels as being somehow based on a careful evaluation of the actual content of a book, ne?
In a way, yes.

That one idea is far darker and more mature (not to mention of higher quality) than anything in either the BoED/BoVD.
yrogerg
09-17-06, 12:01 PM It also bears pointing out that Fiendish Codex opens with a rather graphic dissection of a Dretch, and that there have been naked bewbies in source material all the way back to the MM (Harpies, anyone? Mariliths?).

So, really, graphic imagery and nudity also kinda fails to explain why those books got a 'Mature' label.
a_psh
09-17-06, 01:20 PM So, if it's not the text and it's not the pictures, what's left?

Marketing? ;)
Luis_Carlos
09-17-06, 02:18 PM Just felt as though it should not be "spoilered" like it is something awful or spoiling.

I´m sorry, but I wasn´t sure if it was inappropriate like example of story inspired in the news of the real-world..

It´s very strange... in my land in Canal+ (plus channel, now called cuatro) the TV show ¨Buffy vampire slayer¨, perhaps the most criticized serie by the parents asotiations, was ¨for general audencies¨ (someone like TV-Y or Kids' Audiences), but the animation serie ¨X-Men: Evolution¨ was.. TV-Y7 (may be inappropriate for children under 7). Do you understand it?

I think the really mature topics aren´t (only) about sex and violence but the controversies about History or the real-world policy (and/or religions).

In my opinion the most of the roleplaying soucerbooks is like TV-14 or +14, but someones like World of Darkness (White Wolf) is +16, and certain ones even +18. A child 12 years old keeps playing with toys like action figures..
a_psh
09-17-06, 03:45 PM I think the really mature topics aren´t (only) about sex and violence but the controversies about History or the real-world policy (and/or religions). Looking at our HoH example, HoH has a lot of ideas about the nature of evil and the fall to evil in it: like 1/3 of the book is about the way that evil taints and corrupts even those who try to stand against it. This is a major trope in sword-and-sorcery-style horror, where, unlike helplessly-run-away-from-the-guy-with-the-chainsaw horror or cosmic-beings-of-infinite-power-and-madness-destroy-the-whole-world horror, the heroes can conquer the incarnation of evil before them -- they're only powerless against the essence of evil, against this abstract thing that pollutes everything it touches, including the heroes themselves. (And, unlike omg!-zombies horror, they can't just shoot their way through all the obstacles and come out uncorrupted and unscathed.)

In that regard, it's a much bleaker and more disturbing work in terms of its moral worldview, as it reinforces the inhumanity and inevitability of evil -- the fact that you can't even comprehend it when you first see it but that you will, over time, get used to it and become it -- much more strongly than either the BoVD and BoED, which rather fail to establish a coherent viewpoint at all.
supernerd222
09-17-06, 08:20 PM It isn't the boobs. There's boobs in almost all the monster books. It isn't the violence, Libris Mortis had the rite of crucimigation, Fiendish Codex had the dissection, and Fiend Folio had those Quath Maran (IIRC) guys (amongst others). It isn't the themes, see LM, LoM, FF, and FC. It isn't the drugs, see euphoric imp from FF. I don't know what it is. I don't actually have the book, so I can't really say. That brings me to my next question. When they say mature, do they mean 18+ mature or 13+ mature or mature enough to not be in the store with your mommy mature? Does the comic book guy ask for ID? Do they refuse to sell to minors? How mature are we talking here?
frasmage
09-17-06, 08:40 PM It isn't the boobs. There's boobs in almost all the monster books. It isn't the violence, Libris Mortis had the rite of crucimigation, Fiendish Codex had the dissection, and Fiend Folio had those Quath Maran (IIRC) guys (amongst others). It isn't the themes, see LM, LoM, FF, and FC. It isn't the drugs, see euphoric imp from FF. I don't know what it is. I don't actually have the book, so I can't really say. That brings me to my next question. When they say mature, do they mean 18+ mature or 13+ mature or mature enough to not be in the store with your mommy mature? Does the comic book guy ask for ID? Do they refuse to sell to minors? How mature are we talking here?

Thats actually a pretty good question

I guess it depends on the salesperson. Go to a big book store that happens to have it and they might check. I have a feeling comic/cards/RP stores would be much more likely to give it (most likely knowing whats inside
a_psh
09-19-06, 11:04 PM In summary:
- Not creepy ideas.
- Not philosophical ramblings.
- Not illustrated boobies.
Must be... a gimmick.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
09-20-06, 12:52 AM It's the nekkid wimmens having the sexings.

Translated to coherency, it's the picture of two succubi engaged in carnal relations in the beginning of the book.
Tuskin_Raider
09-20-06, 01:05 AM Hmm, these are all very good questions, but, most important of all, I believe, atleast for the people here without it.

Online Pic link?
a_psh
09-20-06, 01:06 AM It's the nekkid wimmens having the sexings.Touche!

That picture is fascinating because it depicts Evil as some hott-hott lesbians and Good as a orc / half-orc looking downright clownish in really prissy stereotypical paladin armor (a stereotypical paladin would also look downright clownish in said armor). I think we know which side they want you to pick...
Wolfen Fenrison
09-20-06, 02:39 AM To answer a question about being IDed for the book, when I bought my copy of BOVD it was a WotC store back when they were still around and the clerk IDed when I asked for the book, being 19 there was no prob but I couldn't help laugh as my girlfriend was gobsmacked as to why I was being carded for a RPG book.

BOED is "Mature" to keep VoP out reach of underage powergamers (I'll act I'm like good for l33t powers, now I'll pwn anything). :D
Kresalak
09-20-06, 11:34 AM It's the nekkid wimmens having the sexings.

Translated to coherency, it's the picture of two succubi engaged in carnal relations in the beginning of the book.
Do you have a different printing than me?
a_psh
09-20-06, 11:54 AM Do you have a different printing than me?This one (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/boed_gallery/75023.jpg).
Vestigial_Thumb
09-20-06, 02:27 PM This one (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/boed_gallery/75023.jpg).
That chick has no idea what sex is, does she?
cancerousmango
09-20-06, 03:50 PM I believe that Heroes of Horror is much more thoughtful than BoVD when it comes to morality, evil especially.

In BoVD, which I liked very much, evil is shown as it might be in a fourteen year old's mind, but not in a mature person's mind.

The real evil is usually to be found in a corrupt society, or in something that is mentally just wrong, instead of a stark raving CE lunatic running around raping and killing. If I were a Devil or Demon, I'd use Heroes of Horror how to cause suffering, because popping someone's eyeballs is pretty mean and painful, but making events slowly steer towards every member of that person's family dying or attempting to kill them is so much scarier.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Urithair 09-16-06, 12:36 PM	I've seen a lot of people post that the BOED has the 'mature audiences only' sticker because it contains deep and complex roleplaying elements that the 'typical' DnD player is incapable of playing correctly. I'm not saying that point is invalid (neither am I supporting it). What I am saying is that the book has two pictures of 'naked boobies' in it and therefore is required by US law to warn the consumer, lest little Jonny by corrupted by full frontal snake person or side shot flying bird lady.
Mystic Lemur 09-16-06, 12:45 PM	I think it has more to do with the BoED and BoVD laying out a concrete idea of right vs. wrong. That is definitely a no-no in modern society. They don't want to get sued, so they put a 'mature' label on it so that they can claim they warned people and didn't tell anyone to act in any specific way.
Titan W 09-16-06, 12:52 PM	Also nudity isn't considered profane if it has "artistic value" in the united states (As set by supreme court pescident) and thus most drawings that involve nudity in an non-sexual manner are usually considered free speech. The other reason was that it would make a good selling point, but as the previous person said it was mostly to do with morality being described in the concrete and absolute.
a_psh 09-16-06, 01:10 PM	Simple: if you're gonna make a book and market it heavily as "mature" and risque (BoVD), you're kinda stuck having to do that with its companion peice (BoED), too. I don't think that label has anything to do with the ideas therein because books like Heroes of Horror, which definitely has some nasty ideas in it (the little aside about mind flayers alone is already deeper and more disturbing than the entire BoVD). The "mature" label seems to reflect not content, but presentation: the prurient obsession with sex and gore that defines the BoVD. By this standard, the BoED doesn't deserve one.
Luis_Carlos 09-16-06, 01:28 PM	Perhaps because it has some...inspirations from religious parts, like the Gnosticism, and there is some pages talking about morality. Religion and politics are very contrersial topics. I can insure it. For example, to explain it better..... Imagine if a DM creates a satirical adventure about a fresh hafling chased by the orcs, drows, githyankis or hobgoblins... because he drawed a satirical cartoon of Saruman, Sauron, Lolh, Gruumsh or Hextor Somebody from the real world could take it personally and get offended, or you can be acussed of subliminal ideological proselytism by means of subtext.
eca 09-16-06, 01:45 PM	D&D has always been riddled with controversy. (sp?) Books with information about demons and devils, along with drug use if I'm not mistaken, would probably be assulted by the "moraly perfect" politicians who would never think to read a book befor they judge it as the devils work...
rivaltuna 09-16-06, 02:07 PM	D&D has always been riddled with controversy. (sp?) Books with information about demons and devils, along with drug use if I'm not mistaken, would probably be assulted by the "moraly perfect" politicians who would never think to read a book befor they judge it as the devils work... Like Jack T. Chick :D
OneWinged4ngel 09-16-06, 02:20 PM	I think it has more to do with the BoED and BoVD laying out a concrete idea of right vs. wrong. That is definitely a no-no in modern society. They don't want to get sued, so they put a 'mature' label on it so that they can claim they warned people and didn't tell anyone to act in any specific way. Too bad the 'concrete' ideas laid out are self-contradictory and not really deontological... 'else it might have done something to clear up alignment. Anyways... the label is because D&D has been the target of some... definitely unwarranted controversy in the past, like saying we're all practicioners of witchcraft or can't be in touch with reality, etc etc... coughJack T Chickcough
Luis_Carlos 09-16-06, 02:50 PM	....can't be in touch with reality, etc etc... coughJack T Chickcough "Fantasy is just a sweet way to get closer to reality" ~ Michael Ende. I agree. I myself want using the rich mitologhy of D&D to make a subtle satire about certain predjuces of the real wolrd. ¨Lolh is peace, and the drows is peaceful people...(but when you draw their goddess in cartoons)¨:D :D :D :D :D :D :D I thinking in creating a new race of living contructs, some like the cylons of the Galactica: Batlestar reboot, and the borgs from Star Treck, that sometimes they do....... very bad things, but if you do a critical comments about them then you are acussed droidphobia wanted exterminated whole no-pure humans..... Too I want creating a nPC, a populist hogoblings tribal leader who with victimism demagogy declares the war against... the ¨exploiters¨ metalic dragons, for example..
OneWinged4ngel 09-16-06, 02:52 PM	"Artists use lies to tell the truth; politicians use the truth to tell lies."
FeceMan 09-16-06, 03:00 PM	I don't think that label has anything to do with the ideas therein because books like Heroes of Horror, which definitely has some nasty ideas in it (the little aside about mind flayers alone is already deeper and more disturbing than the entire BoVD). Elaborate, please. Or give page number.
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-16-06, 03:48 PM	Poorly thought out discussion about morality is a subject best left to people mature enough to make fun of it.
a_psh 09-16-06, 04:46 PM	Elaborate, please. Or give page number.The specific thing I was refering to is page 137, under "Example: Alien Motives", wherein mind flayers compensate for their atrophied physical senses by using dominated humans to experience all of the pains and pleasures of the flesh. The book doesn't revel in it and obsess about it the way the BoVD does, but there's pretty twisted things in there (as befits a horror book). No "mature" label. I thus conclude that ideas alone are not enough to warrant such a label by WotC's standards.
feartheinvinceblehamster 09-16-06, 04:50 PM	Perhaps because it has some...inspirations from religious parts, like the Gnosticism, and there is some pages talking about morality. Religion and politics are very contrersial topics. I can insure it. For example, to explain it better.....Imagine if a DM creates a satirical adventure about a fresh hafling chased by the orcs, drows, githyankis or hobgoblins... because he drawed a satirical cartoon of Saruman, Sauron, Lolh, Gruumsh or Hextor Somebody from the real world could take it personally and get offended, or you can be acussed of subliminal ideological proselytism by means of subtext. Just felt as though it should not be "spoilered" like it is something awful or spoiling. Besides, Look at the Necronimicon: All kinds of gore and disgusting necromantic spells in there, but it's not slapped "mature". I think it's honestly more of a marketing ploy. They figure more people will buy it if it is a "taboo". It's like the Roleplaying equivelent of GTA. Poorly thought out discussion about morality is a subject best left to people mature enough to make fun of it. Do you ever get tired of being right all of the time?
FeceMan 09-16-06, 05:15 PM	The specific thing I was refering to is page 137, under "Example: Alien Motives", wherein mind flayers compensate for their atrophied physical senses by using dominated humans to experience all of the pains and pleasures of the flesh. The book doesn't revel in it and obsess about it the way the BoVD does, but there's pretty twisted things in there (as befits a horror book). No "mature" label. I thus conclude that ideas alone are not enough to warrant such a label by WotC's standards. Ah. That is pretty twisted. Twisted AWESOME.
Solaris 09-16-06, 08:55 PM	Boobies and themes + http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cover_your_ass
a_psh 09-16-06, 10:17 PM	Ah. That is pretty twisted. Twisted AWESOME.Yeah. I think putting a veteran D&D designer together with some veteran horror designers was a great idea. You agree that it completely nukes the justification of "mature" labels as being somehow based on a careful evaluation of the actual content of a book, ne?
Tuskin_Raider 09-16-06, 11:14 PM	Poorly thought out discussion about morality is a subject best left to people mature enough to make fun of it. Epic Level Wisdom.
FeceMan 09-17-06, 02:02 AM	Yeah. I think putting a veteran D&D designer together with some veteran horror designers was a great idea. You agree that it completely nukes the justification of "mature" labels as being somehow based on a careful evaluation of the actual content of a book, ne? In a way, yes. That one idea is far darker and more mature (not to mention of higher quality) than anything in either the BoED/BoVD.
yrogerg 09-17-06, 12:01 PM	It also bears pointing out that Fiendish Codex opens with a rather graphic dissection of a Dretch, and that there have been naked bewbies in source material all the way back to the MM (Harpies, anyone? Mariliths?). So, really, graphic imagery and nudity also kinda fails to explain why those books got a 'Mature' label.
a_psh 09-17-06, 01:20 PM	So, if it's not the text and it's not the pictures, what's left? Marketing? ;)
Luis_Carlos 09-17-06, 02:18 PM	Just felt as though it should not be "spoilered" like it is something awful or spoiling. I´m sorry, but I wasn´t sure if it was inappropriate like example of story inspired in the news of the real-world.. It´s very strange... in my land in Canal+ (plus channel, now called cuatro) the TV show ¨Buffy vampire slayer¨, perhaps the most criticized serie by the parents asotiations, was ¨for general audencies¨ (someone like TV-Y or Kids' Audiences), but the animation serie ¨X-Men: Evolution¨ was.. TV-Y7 (may be inappropriate for children under 7). Do you understand it? I think the really mature topics aren´t (only) about sex and violence but the controversies about History or the real-world policy (and/or religions). In my opinion the most of the roleplaying soucerbooks is like TV-14 or +14, but someones like World of Darkness (White Wolf) is +16, and certain ones even +18. A child 12 years old keeps playing with toys like action figures..
a_psh 09-17-06, 03:45 PM	I think the really mature topics aren´t (only) about sex and violence but the controversies about History or the real-world policy (and/or religions). Looking at our HoH example, HoH has a lot of ideas about the nature of evil and the fall to evil in it: like 1/3 of the book is about the way that evil taints and corrupts even those who try to stand against it. This is a major trope in sword-and-sorcery-style horror, where, unlike helplessly-run-away-from-the-guy-with-the-chainsaw horror or cosmic-beings-of-infinite-power-and-madness-destroy-the-whole-world horror, the heroes can conquer the incarnation of evil before them -- they're only powerless against the essence of evil, against this abstract thing that pollutes everything it touches, including the heroes themselves. (And, unlike omg!-zombies horror, they can't just shoot their way through all the obstacles and come out uncorrupted and unscathed.) In that regard, it's a much bleaker and more disturbing work in terms of its moral worldview, as it reinforces the inhumanity and inevitability of evil -- the fact that you can't even comprehend it when you first see it but that you will, over time, get used to it and become it -- much more strongly than either the BoVD and BoED, which rather fail to establish a coherent viewpoint at all.
supernerd222 09-17-06, 08:20 PM	It isn't the boobs. There's boobs in almost all the monster books. It isn't the violence, Libris Mortis had the rite of crucimigation, Fiendish Codex had the dissection, and Fiend Folio had those Quath Maran (IIRC) guys (amongst others). It isn't the themes, see LM, LoM, FF, and FC. It isn't the drugs, see euphoric imp from FF. I don't know what it is. I don't actually have the book, so I can't really say. That brings me to my next question. When they say mature, do they mean 18+ mature or 13+ mature or mature enough to not be in the store with your mommy mature? Does the comic book guy ask for ID? Do they refuse to sell to minors? How mature are we talking here?
frasmage 09-17-06, 08:40 PM	It isn't the boobs. There's boobs in almost all the monster books. It isn't the violence, Libris Mortis had the rite of crucimigation, Fiendish Codex had the dissection, and Fiend Folio had those Quath Maran (IIRC) guys (amongst others). It isn't the themes, see LM, LoM, FF, and FC. It isn't the drugs, see euphoric imp from FF. I don't know what it is. I don't actually have the book, so I can't really say. That brings me to my next question. When they say mature, do they mean 18+ mature or 13+ mature or mature enough to not be in the store with your mommy mature? Does the comic book guy ask for ID? Do they refuse to sell to minors? How mature are we talking here? Thats actually a pretty good question I guess it depends on the salesperson. Go to a big book store that happens to have it and they might check. I have a feeling comic/cards/RP stores would be much more likely to give it (most likely knowing whats inside
a_psh 09-19-06, 11:04 PM	In summary: - Not creepy ideas. - Not philosophical ramblings. - Not illustrated boobies. Must be... a gimmick.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 09-20-06, 12:52 AM	It's the nekkid wimmens having the sexings. Translated to coherency, it's the picture of two succubi engaged in carnal relations in the beginning of the book.
Tuskin_Raider 09-20-06, 01:05 AM	Hmm, these are all very good questions, but, most important of all, I believe, atleast for the people here without it. Online Pic link?
a_psh 09-20-06, 01:06 AM	It's the nekkid wimmens having the sexings.Touche! That picture is fascinating because it depicts Evil as some hott-hott lesbians and Good as a orc / half-orc looking downright clownish in really prissy stereotypical paladin armor (a stereotypical paladin would also look downright clownish in said armor). I think we know which side they want you to pick...
Wolfen Fenrison 09-20-06, 02:39 AM	To answer a question about being IDed for the book, when I bought my copy of BOVD it was a WotC store back when they were still around and the clerk IDed when I asked for the book, being 19 there was no prob but I couldn't help laugh as my girlfriend was gobsmacked as to why I was being carded for a RPG book. BOED is "Mature" to keep VoP out reach of underage powergamers (I'll act I'm like good for l33t powers, now I'll pwn anything). :D
Kresalak 09-20-06, 11:34 AM	It's the nekkid wimmens having the sexings. Translated to coherency, it's the picture of two succubi engaged in carnal relations in the beginning of the book. Do you have a different printing than me?
a_psh 09-20-06, 11:54 AM	Do you have a different printing than me?This one (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/boed_gallery/75023.jpg).
Vestigial_Thumb 09-20-06, 02:27 PM	This one (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/boed_gallery/75023.jpg). That chick has no idea what sex is, does she?
cancerousmango 09-20-06, 03:50 PM	I believe that Heroes of Horror is much more thoughtful than BoVD when it comes to morality, evil especially. In BoVD, which I liked very much, evil is shown as it might be in a fourteen year old's mind, but not in a mature person's mind. The real evil is usually to be found in a corrupt society, or in something that is mentally just wrong, instead of a stark raving CE lunatic running around raping and killing. If I were a Devil or Demon, I'd use Heroes of Horror how to cause suffering, because popping someone's eyeballs is pretty mean and painful, but making events slowly steer towards every member of that person's family dying or attempting to kill them is so much scarier.