Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Malagant_the_Black 01-31-04, 07:14 PM	Is it just me or is the BOED so much better than the BOVD. The prestige classes, templates, feats, spells, all of them are so much more powerful than those in the BOVD. It really makes good unfairly more powerful I think. I see no reason for any character not to want to take Vow of Poverty. Especially wizards who don't worry about armor and weapons and would have most of what they could hope to gain from items easily replaced+ by the abilities granted by VOP. I think the BOVD was just a little weak on the crunchy side. Does anyone know of any web enhancement material for it? Or any similar material created by someone on a webpage somewhere that I could look at? Thanks!
Myrddin_Silvermane 01-31-04, 09:44 PM	I disagree. I think that the BoED only SEEMS overpowered when compared to the BoVD, because the authors designed it specifically to counter the BoVD. I think that any good DM should be able to play villains who acknowledge the fact that many Good things are designed against them, and take precautions against it. Plus, compare VoP against the Dark Craft experience, Dark Craft gold, souls in item creation, and liquid pain in item creation. Example: The exalted VoP Wizard with one robe, one spell book, and one bag o' spell crap and a whole bunch of special abilities VS the vile Wizard with the whole bunch of special abilities due to his Demonic/Diabolic patron and a bag o' holding IV full of effectively FREE magic items. How is BoED overpowered there?
E-Vile 02-01-04, 08:34 AM	The BoED is in some ways indeed more powerful than the BoVD, but that's because being exalted reqruires one female dog of of roleplaying. It's almost impossible to stay exalted for very long, and if you lose your status you lose all your abilities (no you don't get replacement feats for it you LOSE your feats).
paolung 02-01-04, 01:53 PM	It's almost impossible to stay exalted for very long think so? why?
E-Vile 02-01-04, 05:31 PM	In most campaigns plot developement requires some neutral or evil act, which can't be done if an exalted character is in the party. For example, the BBEG is subdued but has activated his device of doom and needs to be deactivated, but only the BBEG knows how. The party has NO way of deactivating it without the exalted characters losing their status (threatening, intimidating and so on are evil/neutral acts and can't be performed by exalted characters and the BoED states that even delivering prisoners to partymember who can do such things make you lose your status). This is but one example but it's so damn difficult to run a campaign and retain exalted status. Sometimes a good end just requires non-good means.
BrazilRascal 02-01-04, 07:08 PM	I have read both books very carefully, then asked every DM in my gaming group to do so. We discussed the ups and downs of it and our democratically reached, St. Cuthbert-approved decision is that the Book of Exalted Deeds urinates on the Book of Vile Darkness from waaaay up above. Game-balance wise, the addition of Vile Damage was pathetic in comparison with the Exalted feats. The Vow of Poverty can turn a good-aligned monk into a holy baddie-trouncing machine at no cost (actually liberating him from having to buy those annoying monk amulets that cost half a kingdom, which was where most of his money was going anyway). Exalted prestige classes are more than cool concepts and actually (gasp!) offer many abilities that will see plenty of use, unlike the nasty-looking but highly impractical PrCs of the Bad Guys book, many of which have ridiculously easy save DCs. It's worth noting, too, that the goody-2-shoes side of the equation already had a surplus of good Prestige Classes, such as the Templars (who mixes the best of the Paladin, the Fighter and the Barbartian, minus the Rage), the Hospitaler (absurdly overpowered in my opinion, giving full BAB progression couples with full caster progression and even more perks), the many Knight orders, etc. Maybe the fact that the Book of Exalted Deeds was released after the conversion to 3.5 plays a role in tha tdifference. That is particularly easy to notice when you look at the stats of the Angels and other good Outsider big guys in the end; a CR 22 angel from the BoED can level a CR 30 demon prince from the BoVD, stat. I've restricted most of the material on the Book of Exalted Deeds on game balance grounds, and not even my most power-avid players managed to challenge my rationale in doing so. Now, when you consider the ROLE-PLAYING side of the issue.... It doesn't change one bit. Sure, Exalted perks are easier than most to lose. So what? To me, a good role-player is someone who can have the same fun with the decent role-playing of a virtuous, honorable Lawful-Good Bard as he would get playing that exact same concept and being rewarded with unbalanced powers. Because, surprisingly, he is more concerned about merely having a character able to survie than being able to cause the moon to crash on top of the opposition in a Final-Fantasy-like summon spell. If you're having to reward your players with lots of powers for their "virtuous" role-playing, it's not virtuous. The sorcerer who runs out of his shelter to shield peasant froma hail of arrows, with his body if needs be and unaided by his spells because there's simply no time is doing a feat of role-playing far more admirable than the tanked-up Templar with his Damage Resistance doing the same thing, because he is risking more. Rewarding goodness by reducing the sacrifice it entails just doesn't make sense to me. Most of us would rush into a burning building to rescue a friend if we had fireproof clothing and a mask to filter out the smoke. Take away those props, and the number drops dramatically. Make tha tperson a stranger instead of a friend, and it drops again. Those would be the role-players of Exalted deeds in real life. Rewarding the heroism by not making it heroic anymore...not in my games. The other books have plenty of material for your moral, altrusitic, game-balanced character in my opinion. Making a "hey, other paladins are Lawful Good, but I'm Lawful GoodER and thus I get extra perks!" bunch of classes and feats strikes me as pushing the envelope. That said, it's not a bad book; most of the material is fun reading and good guidelines to playing a good character...or an evil one:D But it's simply not compatible with the way I like to run my games.
Count Arioch the 28th 02-01-04, 07:41 PM	Originally posted by E-Vile For example, the BBEG is subdued but has activated his device of doom and needs to be deactivated, but only the BBEG knows how. The party has NO way of deactivating it without the exalted characters losing their status (threatening, intimidating and so on are evil/neutral acts and can't be performed by exalted characters and the BoED states that even delivering prisoners to partymember who can do such things make you lose your status). Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, WRONG, WRONG! Quote a damn page number where it says you cannot intimidate, threaten, or hell, even magically chamr the BBEG into divulging the information. I'll save you the time, you can't find the page number, because you just lied about the book saying that.
Loren Pechtel 02-01-04, 11:00 PM	Originally posted by Count Arioch the 28th Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, WRONG, WRONG! Quote a damn page number where it says you cannot intimidate, threaten, or hell, even magically chamr the BBEG into divulging the information. I'll save you the time, you can't find the page number, because you just lied about the book saying that. An example comes to mind from a story (the quotes might not be perfect, it's been some years): They needed the cooperation of the bad guys in order to keep order to defend against the coming enemy. (Flight was possible but there wasn't enough space for most people to get away. Most people were going to have to stand the seige before help would arrive.) The leader was attempting to threaten the bad guys. Their top guy correctly pointed out that she would not actually harm them, that was not their way, and besides she needed the bad guys to give orders. An ally of the good guys although not part of their team, and a member of the opposing forces in a recently-concluded war: "We only need one, and he need not be whole." When this wasn't quite enough, "Perhaps I should mention that I was cashiered for my role in what the Federation would consider a major atrocity." (He just didn't state what his role had been. It had been the role of preventing it.)
ManTimeForgot 02-02-04, 01:01 AM	Now see this is what atonement is for. If you read the BoED, which you claim to have done, you would have come across the section on forgiveness and the section about duress as it relates to the notion of evil. I think you will find that while they may lose their powers, the powers get reinstated right quick. The only things which are not subject to atonment in the normal way are Vow of Peace and Vow of Poverty. Vow of peace specifically has a clause for compelled actions (like dominate) and Vow of Poverty requires that one "own" something which is a conscious decision (no one can dominate you into owning something). So if intimidation is necessary to save lives, then guess what an exalted character does? As far as I am concerned a really good example of an exalted character is Leo from Charmed (maybe even a paladin considering the whole lay on hands thing and the white lighter code of conduct). He fights when forced to; otherwise Leo tries to find a non-violent solution. He strives to protect his charges as best he can (and he doesn't have to try and protect everyone because good is organized in the charmed universe, and thus everyone can do their own little part. Very intelligent if you ask me). And you know what happens with Leo? Leo will break the rules or do something which is harmful, but he always has a good reason for it, and then he goes before the "elders" (which are the powers of good in the universe) and apologizes for what he did. Sounds like atonement to me. Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
E-Vile 02-02-04, 08:03 AM	Originally posted by Count Arioch the 28th Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, WRONG, WRONG! Quote a damn page number where it says you cannot intimidate, threaten, or hell, even magically chamr the BBEG into divulging the information. I'll save you the time, you can't find the page number, because you just lied about the book saying that. Intimidate/Threaten: page 9 Ends and Means. Evil means to do a good act remain evil, therefore compromising the Exalted Status. Intimidating and threatening are are lies (they have to be lies because page 7 states that prisoners must be treated with kindness)and are therefore evil. Charm isn't stated in the book as evil, but taking away freedom to choose is. Which is basically the essence of Charm. Charm may or may not be evil, but it is in the Fey domain so it'll probably be neutral at worst.
paolung 02-02-04, 12:30 PM	Intimidate/Threaten: page 9 Ends and Means. Evil means to do a good act remain evil, therefore compromising the Exalted Status. Intimidating and threatening are are lies (they have to be lies because page 7 states that prisoners must be treated with kindness)and are therefore evil. does this mean the Intimidate skill is evil now too (like 99% of poison use)? :rolleyes: i think the book was written rather poorly. as much as I absolutely *HATE* to admit it, i think that strictly by the book, you're correct. i hate the way the stupid thing was written leading to these sorts of [logical] conclusions, which by the letter, are true, even if they are stupid. i think , even with the way things are written (which is stupidly, in several circumstances, IMO) that characters can play (and remain) exalted. you just have to find other ways. For example, the BBEG is subdued but has activated his device of doom and needs to be deactivated, but only the BBEG knows how. The party has NO way of deactivating it without the exalted characters losing their status (threatening, intimidating and so on are evil/neutral acts and can't be performed by exalted characters and the BoED states that even delivering prisoners to partymember who can do such things make you lose your status). in the previous example, there ARE other ways to extract information besides intimidation and threats. things like charm spells (which , it could be argued, uses magic to screw with free will, but technically so does the "Emissary of Barachiel" which is an exalted class so i don't see a problem with that BY THE RULES) , a multitude of divination spells, mind-reading, etc. the point of the exalted character is that they dont' have to resort to those "uncouth" methods (such as intimidation, torture, etc) and they can "rise above" those methods of information extraction. Now see this is what atonement is for. If you read the BoED, which you claim to have done, you would have come across the section on forgiveness and the section about duress as it relates to the notion of evil. i disagree. a character can't just pi$$ away his exalted status just because they're "under pressure" or whatnot. the truly exalted character will NOT submit to that pressure under ANY circumstances and will die if necessary to preserve their exalted status. it's a black and white world for the exalted character, and black isn't an option. if some exalted character tried that 'under duress' crap in my game, i'd say 'no way no how'. now, a mistake is one thing, or unintentional stuff (dominated etc) is understandable, and THAT is why you atone. but atonement isn't for someone who says they can just screw around "cause I can always get atoned later!" that's like the old (excuse me for dragging this example in, but it's a good one) lesson they taught me in church when i was young, about how it's not ok to just drink and fornicate and sin all week long (their examples, not mine) because you can always go to church on Sunday, confess, and 'atone' or be forgiven etc etc... it just doesn't work that way... one cannot justify an evil act if one is Exalted, that's the whole idea. it's NEVER an option.
Christal 02-02-04, 12:34 PM	Just to add my two cents: I made two characters, delving deep into my sinister pit of creativity for one; An unimaginably vile half-fiend black-guard/mage that I managed to slaughter just about anything with in a few mock battles, even things that were more than 10 CR ahead of him. All by the book (of vile darkness). Then I made a guy that would make Ghandi eat his giant diaper. A healer/monk/apostle that could ease the suffering of nations by the gesture of his hands. A man so pure that people wept in joy at the sight of him. He could NOT however, defeat squat. His AC ended up in the high 40s, he could heal anything short of G W Bush's brain, and should be able to make any living thing reconsider their actions and seek redemption... ... then he met a large Att+54/49/44/39 golem that didn't seem to see eye to eye. Yes, vile may be countered by good, but the poor players are also supposed to handle the vide fauna offered by the DM. Vile characters are just supposed to kill, loot and be downright rude.
paolung 02-02-04, 02:37 PM	he could heal anything short of G W Bush's brain :rofl:
Meus Calmiron 02-02-04, 03:08 PM	IF you truely play an exalted character. and you abide by everything laid out in the first part of the book, you will die. and perhaps become a risen martyr. The fact that you cannot allow one innocent to suffer, even if it is to save 100,000 others. that ends never justify the means.... well at least with my DM you would die.
Meus Calmiron 02-02-04, 03:12 PM	also, most really exalted chars can have a rediculously high diplomacy. This could help with interrogating. rather than just intimidate. IE convincing the captured person that in order to save his soul he must repent for his evil ways... and telling us what his bad guy buddies are up to, is a large step in that direction.
Myrddin_Silvermane 02-02-04, 11:52 PM	THANK YOU CHRISTAL! I mean, yeah, from a metaphysical standpoint the BoED urinates on the BoVD, 'cause the Good planes are considered (normally) to be 'higher' in the planar pecking order, but on a power standpoint, BoVD more than pulls it's own. I refer you back to the FREE magic items as to why! Plus, the really interesting thing that makes the BoVD MUCH more powerful than BrazilRascal and those of you who agree with him seem to think, is that vile characters have NO, I repeat, NO limitations on their behavior: if they have to be 'Good' to achieve a goal, ie saving a village of innocents to turn the kingdom into their own fiendish playground, they CAN! How exactly is that not at least the equal of the BoED?
Christal 02-03-04, 03:00 AM	Indeed. If you are too slow to make full use of the BoVD, then let me offer some nasties I find entertaining; A vile frenzied berserker/rage mage with the Sadism & Machosism spells (bonuses to hit & damage based on the damage he recieves and gives). After five rounds, this sick little puppy ended up on a +112 to hit, and a damage modifier that would make Erythnul green with jealousy. If you have some spare time, you may summon some resources that you slaughter yourself. If you don't know how to summon, your local village serves the same purpose. Temporary hit points from draining stack. I don't need to add that the vampire has BOTH this ability AND the dominating gaze do I? Imagine then a small sleepy hamlet full of temporary HP (also known as innocent women and children) Violated (I simply LOVE that little metamagic feat) spells deal vile damage. Finally some use for the 1d6 lv3 apprentices of that stupid diabolist, who all cast violated magic missiles for 1d4+1 normal damage and 1d4+1 non-healable damage from a safe distance. Repeat until your players start groaning. Domination and several children with daggers on their own throats. "Attack me... come on... don't mind my hostages..." If you have trouble finding nasty combos within the pages of BoVD, you aren't using it right. Evil cheats. So should you.
E-Vile 02-03-04, 07:45 AM	Christal you are the vilest link.
Lord T Hawkeye 02-03-04, 04:32 PM	I'll take this point by point. "Especially wizards who don't worry about armor and weapons and would have most of what they could hope to gain from items easily replaced+ by the abilities granted by VOP" Only problem is when the wizard wants to cast spells with expensive material components. Has to beg them off his allies usually. Yes, many of the abilities in the BoeD are quite powerful but they come at a price. An exalted character cannot commit evil acts which can be very difficult to deal with. The occasional honorable deed won't hurt a vile character at all.
Pennarin 02-03-04, 05:15 PM	Originally posted by E-Vile The BoED is in some ways indeed more powerful than the BoVD, but that's because being exalted reqruires one female dog of of roleplaying. It's almost impossible to stay exalted for very long, and if you lose your status you lose all your abilities (no you don't get replacement feats for it you LOSE your feats). What if you are an 11+ level exalted paladin who falls to evil? You become a Favored of the Dark Deities. You trade in paladin levels for blackguard levels. What happen to your feats in general? More specifically to exalted feats? Traded in for vile feats?
E-Vile 02-03-04, 05:46 PM	Nope, lost forever. The strange thing is that if you convert from evil to neutral/good you get to keep your vile feats (at least the deformity ones)
ManTimeForgot 02-03-04, 07:49 PM	Just for the record duress does not equate with pressure. Duress is what happens when you are under so much pressure that one can no longer make rational decisions. An example of duress is: You are hanging upside down by a magical force. You have a dagger in your hands (you are incapable of reaching the magical force holding you upside down). You are presented with a situation where what feels (isn't an illusion), smells, looks, and sounds like a young boy in front of you. The young boy is suspended by a rope over a lever based mechanism which the base of (where the boy would drop if you cut the rope) is covered in spikes (which would kill the boy instantly). This mechanism you can see is connected to a dam like object suspended over a flow of running water (you can pretty clearly tell that the damming object is designed to fit the passage of the water), and you have been previously shown by the BBEG that the lever mechanism is what lowers the dam. The flow of water is filling up a "bucket" (though its a big bucket) which is attached to another lever mechanism. This lever mechanism is clearly connected to sliding door over top a cage (with bars at the top, but not the bottom). You can reach inside the cage and touch the 10 prisoners inside (noting they are real too), but cannot do anything other than stab them because they are manacled. The sliding door over top the cage is the only thing which prevents some very ravenous looking creatures from dropping down into the cage with the prisoners in it. You are running out of time as blood rushes to your head. You must choose either to kill the boy and save the people in the cage or let the boy live and watch the people in the cage get exposed to the ravenous looking creatures above them. The BBEG left the room because he really doesn't care which choice is made :). That is duress. That isn't pressure. That is "OMG WTF DO I DO?!!!" Under such circumstances an exalted person can atone. Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
VigorMortis 02-03-04, 10:14 PM	My perspective... 1. Psychic Poison. Am I the only one who noticed how badazz these are? They aren't a real poison. You can set up a bunch of psychic poisons on yourself, or on your dungeon, or what not, and stab people bunches with Improved Invisibility, and so if they use a divination to sense you, they immediately have to make a ton of saving throws or take lots of mental ability damage and probably fall unconscious. Its great for high level casters who don't really intend to be able to USE all them spells in a day. 2. Sadism and Masochism spells... enough said. 3. Fleshgrinder. Stick this property on a super egotistical sword, stick it in someone. They pull it out, and they get possessed by your sword. Hooray. Or you could use a Masterslaying one. Yeah. 4. Tongue Studs of Hell Breath. These're nice. Don't seem to allow SR or saves or energy resistance. 5. Sacrifices. These are cool. My faves are the one that gives Divine Power potentially to a whole party, and the one that gives a Greater Planar Ally. I don't think Vow of Peace is overpowered. Armor of Fortification and Vorpal Swords are much too useful for it to be to my tastes generally, and of course, a VoP wizard can't have a spellbook, so he's going to be stuck using Spell Mastery.
E-Vile 02-03-04, 10:19 PM	Originally posted by VigorMortis 3. Fleshgrinder. Stick this property on a super egotistical sword, stick it in someone. They pull it out, and they get possessed by your sword. Hooray. Or you could use a Masterslaying one. Yeah. These babies rock the world. I actually had a lasher with two fleshgrinding whipdaggers, two normal whipdaggers and TWF. Damn, he kicked some buttocks.
Massawyrm 02-04-04, 12:21 AM	The BoED, while powerful, doesn't send shivers down my spine with it's power like the BoVD does. While many of the Exalted feats and PrC's are nasty, there are a few areas where the BoVD really kicks the crud out of it's antithesis. One area not yet mentioned: Spells. Dear God. Now I don't allow any of my players, evil or not, to take spells from the BoVD. Sure, some of them are okay...but others are downright disgusting. Example 1: Dance of Ruin. Holy crap. 2nd Lvl spell, 2d20 damage to all non-demon creatures in the spread. Um. Ick. Sure, it could do two points of damage to all these creatures and be a little less powerful than your average 2nd level spell. Or, as in the case in one of my games, it can do 37. Sure, not a great spell for a squad based villain, but for a demon summoner, or a group of demons...or a single spell caster...this can spell out serious doom for the party. Example 2: Curse of the putrid husk. 3rd level spell, make a will save or collapse for 1d10 MINUTES! Sure, not effective against characters with high will saves...but fighters...barbarians...the guys with huge pools of HP one would have to wittle away at. They have sorry will saves. And the Save is 13 + the bonus (probably INT) meaning a REAL wiz/sor worth his salt is gonna have a save of 15-17 for this spell. A 15th level Barb/Ftr without magical assistance has a 50/50 chance of making this roll, let alone what just a 6th level barb/ftr would have. Example 3: Flesh Ripper. 1d8 Damage per level (max 10d8) to target creature. Sure it doesn't damage othe creatures like the similar, but less powerful fireball or lightning bolt. But it can score a critical hit and even has an added WOUNDING effect if it does so. Like seering light, sure, except this does it to everyone, not just evil outsiders. The Spells in BoED are great, no doubt. But they do not compare, especially at lower levels, to the sickness that the BoVD puts in the hands of evil. I think it's also important to note that the BoVD really ISN'T meant for PC's. Sure, I know there are those of you out there who would disagree and claim that they can do whatever the hell they want. But really, it's not material INTENDED for PC's. It's meant for villainous NPC's and thus, that's how it's geared. Monte Cook added new layers of vileness to Villain character creation, and some new curvballs to throw at PC's. The BoED on the otherhand, is ENTIRELY geared towards PC play. Note that what seem powerful on par with others are Feats (the nasty of which require some heavy prereqs) and the PrC's definately detooth some already weak existing PrC's (I mean really...The Fist of Raziel vs. The Eldritch Knight? No freaking contest. The same BAB and spell level progression AND you get cool as hell smite evil abilities?) many of these have hefty, non roleplaying related, costs. The VoP that everyone complains about takes 2 regular feats to get. Sure, a human could have it at first level, but then it's 3rd level before they get a REAL feat, not just exalted ones. And the problem with exalted feats is A) there aren't many usable by each class (there's a little something for everybody) and B) they have serious prereqs and in play requirements to keep working. Ultimately, what it comes down to is this. BoVD was intended to make NPC's whose abilities came into play for maybe a dozen rounds. The PrC's were intended to add flavor, not character options to PC's, thus they are fairly inflexible and hardly versatile. What they get, however, is nasty spells, weird new abilities and magic items that do disgusting things for those Dozen rounds they're around. BoED on the otherhand, is intended to stick around. Their feats and PrC's are usable in many more situations than those on BoVD, but their spells and magical items are still on par with those from the PHB and DMG, in fact, those in the core books are pretty much Preferable to those located in the BoED. BoED is the greatest, poorly written book wotc's put out, but I really don't think it's as overpowered as many have claimed.
Myrddin_Silvermane 02-04-04, 12:39 AM	THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!! Everyone after my post starting with Christal, my thanks to you. I have been defending the BoVD, in vain, it often seemed, for over a year now. Finally, I have encountered someone who sees the true horrible potential inherent within the work. I praise your insight, rules savvyness, and your reading skills. Once again, Thank you.
Christal 02-04-04, 06:59 AM	Myrrdin: Not at all. I simply believe that being evil is a kind of art. Everyone can make a blackguard that kills a PC's mom. Not everyone can make one that tricks the players into slaying the duke's children. And in the process become a knight of the realm himself, while the players sit in a local dungeon like some insane bunch of villains, plotting their vengance. And in the end realizing that they are becoming just the opposite of what they stand for, hated by all. All the while the blackguard, his succubus cohort (whom passed off as the Duke's newly ressurected child, after the PC barbarian went head-hunting with his greataxe) and the newly "reformed" (also known as charmed) knightly order are free to convert the feeble peasants and old, weak nobles into their little new hoot called The Iron Church of Bane. (Forgotten Realm's equivalent of Hextor) But then again, I am a perfectionist of sorts. [Edit] Oh, I almost forgot; In the whole process, they also were fooled to believe that the REAL evil mastermind was the tired old lv3 LN diviner sage with a severe case of reumatism and poor vision. In fact, he was the only man who knew the truth of the vile force now known as Sir Lucien Rift. LE Fighter/Enchanter/Eldrich Knight/Blackguard of Bane. In case you were wondering about the LE blackguard with a CE cohort; The church of bane stands for tyrrany and strife, and Sir Rift finds great pleasure in controlling his little demonic puppet.
Myrddin_Silvermane 02-05-04, 10:28 PM	Precisely. And while some would disagree with the LE plus CE thing, I agree with your reasoning. And here's an interesting sidepoint: Are fiends or celestials more 'powerful' campaign-wise? Many people on this thread have been discussing the PC vs NPC aspects of the books, so here's an issue which involves two sides which are not related save by summoning and such. So again, the question is: are the celestials in the BoED more powerful than the fiends in the BoVD? And, how does this affect the relative strength or weakness of the respective books?
Christal 02-06-04, 06:43 AM	Fiends vs Celestials? As for their usefulness as summons; I think both have their practical uses. A smart goodguy wiz with a summon monster IX could summon a ghaele eladrin and may heal his entire party. As far as their values in battle; I laugh at both. Unless you are able to summon the named entities (and you're not) the outsiders you can summon with the respective summons are... well... weak. I find that whenever someone do summon them, they serve as flavored cannonfodder and distractions. But then again, what is a CR13-14 monster worth in a battle that challenges 17-18th level characters? Their net HP are around 100, which is quite within the damage-potential/round of most quasi-epic monsters. And not to mention that they can be routed with a simple 4th level spell. As for their individual might; Perhaps the goodie twoshoes are a bit more powerful... but then again, they are the elite few that serve good. While the fiends are the vile masses that never ends. Not so powerful individually, but you almost NEVER face them alone. "Hi, I'm John Balor. For my first trick, I'll gate ANOTHER BALOR in here, while I quicken meteor-swarm your sorry selves..." Now, two balors against one solar... that should be interesting. Apart from their individual might, there is the little fact that the goodies have to look after the well-being of others, and serve the greater cause, etc etc etc. All the while Asmodeus and the rest of the nasty nine sit in Nessus plotting how to overthrow the heavens and dominate the multiverse. See beyond the frame of your d20, and you'll find that most of the debate of Good vs Evil lies in far more than the participants' attack bonus. PC Fighter 4 beats Orc Warrior 1. Orc horde beats PC Fighter 4. That is the way it has always been.
Antedeus 02-12-04, 02:46 AM	How, then, do you respond to the (very true, IMO) claim that heroes have an easier time working together than villains?
Mirtek 02-12-04, 06:34 AM	Originally posted by BrazilRascal It's worth noting, too, that the goody-2-shoes side of the equation already had a surplus of good Prestige Classes, such as the Templars (who mixes the best of the Paladin, the Fighter and the Barbartian, minus the Rage), the Hospitaler (absurdly overpowered in my opinion, giving full BAB progression couples with full caster progression and even more perks), the many Knight orders, etc. Actually Templars can be of any alignment as can many of the knight orders (or at least can be non-good)
Theis 02-12-04, 10:33 AM	Originally posted by E-Vile Intimidate/Threaten: page 9 Ends and Means. Evil means to do a good act remain evil, therefore compromising the Exalted Status. Intimidating and threatening are are lies (they have to be lies because page 7 states that prisoners must be treated with kindness)and are therefore evil. Charm isn't stated in the book as evil, but taking away freedom to choose is. Which is basically the essence of Charm. Charm may or may not be evil, but it is in the Fey domain so it'll probably be neutral at worst. This is entirely wrong. Please turn your attention to the ninth line in the left column on page 28 of the BOED. It says: "Fortunately for good characters, there are other ways of making prisoners talk. Charm and compulsion spells can do the job admirably. An Intimidate check can also cow the prisoner into disclosing the desired information." So neither Intimidate nor Charms (or Compulsions) are evil, and it is also specifically explained later in the text why Intimidate isn't. And Intimidate doesn't involve lying in any way (which BTW isn't Evil in itself either). So while the end doesn't justify the means, Good characters aren't without tools to get the job done (violent job or not).
Mirtek 02-12-04, 10:42 AM	Originally posted by Theis And Intimidate doesn't involve lying in any way (which BTW isn't Evil in itself either). For an exhalted good charakter Intimidate would have to involve lying. Intimidate is to threaten a prisoner, but since an exhalted good character won't harm a prisoner, thus it's a lie when he threats the prisoner that he would be harmed if he won't talk.
Theis 02-12-04, 11:04 AM	Originally posted by Mirtek For an exhalted good charakter Intimidate would have to involve lying. Intimidate is to threaten a prisoner, but since an exhalted good character won't harm a prisoner, thus it's a lie when he threats the prisoner that he would be harmed if he won't talk. Try reading the book we are talking about (Hint: Book of Exalted Deeds) ;). (No offense intended, just feeling a bit like joking today :angel: ) As I said, it is explained in the text I refered to why Intimidate doesn't involve lying. And for those who don't want to read more than absolutly nessecary: Intimidate doesn't involve lying because you can intimidate without having to threaten to hurt people. My argument is backed by this quote (again from page 28 in BOED): "This intimidation need not include threats of physical harm, " IMHO that should settle this part of the discussion ;)
EvilDuck 02-12-04, 08:15 PM	Intimidate doesn't necessarily invole threats. Growling and giving a mean glare is a form of intimidation. You aren't threatening the subject with physical harm. They might assume that you are, but that's on their end, not yours. While the BOED may look better than the BOVD, there's one thing that isn't being taken into account. While BOED may be more powerful, it won't go as far to get its desires as evil will. It's not only what they can do, it's what they will do. Good has its morals and whatnot that limit its power. Evil has no such thing.
Christal 02-13-04, 02:17 PM	Intimidate may have many interesting uses. For example, leave the gagged and bound bad guy with said info in the same room as the cha 6 dwarf with a hair-fetish. After five hours of "torture" (listening to the dwarf ranting on and on about his 1300 year old clan's history of hair-care) you may enter and roll an intimidate-check while saying. "Want him to stop?" Though that may be considered evil.... Or you can do as my Slayer of Domiel; Sit next to the "victim" and talk very calmly, yet with a certain gleam in your eyes, of your line of work, while sharpening your +2 wounding dagger. When all else fails, have the gnome bard sing his "We're the happy heroes!"-song until his ears rot. Also SHOULD be considered evil...
sciborg2 02-14-04, 12:37 AM	it's a suggestion of physical harm. it is a lie of omission.
strenoth 02-15-04, 02:35 AM	who said anything about simple threats of physical harm? you could use intimidate a person wiht mentioning the harsh standards of the local courts or what ever system the person is going to be judged by, and talk about how courts (and some dieties/temples) tend to look more forgivingly upon those who have shown sign of repentance and remorse by giving of their knowledge so that others migth better stop evil... the above would, truthfully, tell the person that if he was to act repentant and give up the information, he might get an easier/lighter sentance.
Lord Dalamus 02-15-04, 07:12 AM	9 pal \ 1 clr \ 10 fist of raziel it's a complete paladin (save spellcasting that is 9 lvl pal) and casts also as a 11 lvl cleric.