Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dave1001 10-25-03, 10:32 PM	does anyone else think the BoED is horribly broken and should never, ever, ever be used except as extremely rare NPCs? If not, I direct you to the vow of poverty feat, and combining that with a monk. By 20th you essentially have every single base covered and no real drawbacks! Imagine having +5 (enhancement bonus) fists with DR reduction against magic, lawful, adamantine, good, and holy! And having DR/evil for yourself! And having regeneration! And an effective +15 to AC! And energy resistance 15 vs. all 5 types! And not having to eat, drink, or breathe! and it goes on from there! Urk! What was WoTC thinking! And I thought the BoVD was overpowered! :headexplo
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-25-03, 10:49 PM	There's a board for BoED stuff. Scroll down to the mature products line.
ConfusedUs 10-25-03, 10:52 PM	If you read the disclaimer, this is a resource intended not for PCs, but for DMs, just like the BoVD. However, the bonuses you get from the vow of poverty are approximately equal to what you would normally get from magic items, which you may not own. It's not nearly as bad as you might think. Assuming a monk with vow of poverty +15 to AC from this class Assuming normal monk +5 ring of protection +5 amulet of nat armor +6 gloves of dex (+3 AC) +6 headband of wisdom (+3 AC) that's +16 from magic items, and the dex/wis does more than just add to AC. Ok, so you can now overcome magic DR. That's only one extra DR penetration for a class that typically gets shafted when it comes to DR. Regeneration? Not as bad as you think. Resistance to energy? Hell, a monk probably isn't going to fail that many saves to begin with, and if they do, they have improved evasion anyway. Not to mention SR. So they don't have to eat/sleep/breathe. Eating and sleeping have very little to do with the normal part of any game, and both can be nearly cut out with a ring of sustenence anyway. Breathing is a bit worse, but since monks are immune to poisons anyway, they'd only have to worry about suffocation. Maybe in your games you have to worry about suffocating all the time, but it's only come up ONCE in the last three campaigns I've played in.
Dave1001 10-26-03, 08:39 AM	Originally posted by ConfusedUs If you read the disclaimer, this is a resource intended not for PCs, but for DMs, just like the BoVD. However, the bonuses you get from the vow of poverty are approximately equal to what you would normally get from magic items, which you may not own. It's not nearly as bad as you might think. Assuming a monk with vow of poverty +15 to AC from this class Assuming normal monk +5 ring of protection +5 amulet of nat armor +6 gloves of dex (+3 AC) +6 headband of wisdom (+3 AC) that's +16 from magic items, and the dex/wis does more than just add to AC. Ok, so you can now overcome magic DR. That's only one extra DR penetration for a class that typically gets shafted when it comes to DR. Regeneration? Not as bad as you think. Resistance to energy? Hell, a monk probably isn't going to fail that many saves to begin with, and if they do, they have improved evasion anyway. Not to mention SR. So they don't have to eat/sleep/breathe. Eating and sleeping have very little to do with the normal part of any game, and both can be nearly cut out with a ring of sustenence anyway. Breathing is a bit worse, but since monks are immune to poisons anyway, they'd only have to worry about suffocation. Maybe in your games you have to worry about suffocating all the time, but it's only come up ONCE in the last three campaigns I've played in. Actually in pretty many areas it's a lot better. You're forgetting the +8 enchancement bonus (broken up into 2s) from the vow. That's another +4 you could add to either Dex or Will, or 2 to each. Which means the vow of poverty monk gets the +19 to AC vs. the magical item +16. Of course there's also the +3 bonus to all saving throws (similar to a cloak, only no Mords), there's the 'mind shielding' ability, the 'freedom of movement' ability. The DR of 10/evil. The energy resistance 15 vs. acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic. Automatic true seeing ability also. And of course the 11 bonus exalted feats they get (if starting from level 1). With the bonus exalted feats, they can get things like having every monk attack deal golden ice effects. Of make their attacks be 'holy' weapons that deal an additional 2d6 holy damage. And of course they can pick up other things like exalted spell resistance, sanctify ki strike, and a whole bunch of vows. Add all this on top of what a monk gains naturally, and there's no way such a character could be emulated via magical items. And don't even get me started on the celestial mystic.
Dave1001 10-26-03, 08:41 AM	Originally posted by Vaalingrade Ashland There's a board for BoED stuff. Scroll down to the mature products line. well I would, but despite being 25 the boards won't allow me access.
Mongoose4937 10-26-03, 12:29 PM	You're missing the point that you can't own anything. Anything.. No caltrops, no maps, no backpacks, no 10-foot poles, you can't even own a freaking rope. If you min-max properly, magic items can give a much larger bonus. Not to mention you end up burning two feats on it (Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty). While you get bonus exalted feats for it, those must be exalted feats, and you only get full benefit of them if you're human (first exalted feat at level 2, only humans can have vow of poverty before level 3).
Greyman 10-26-03, 07:20 PM	Originally posted by Dave1001 well I would, but despite being 25 the boards won't allow me access. Well, that would be because you have not set your birth date in your profile. Login, click on [user cp] then goto [edit profile] and update your details.
Haradim 10-26-03, 08:51 PM	Since it seems you can't even have a +1 weapon (I don't have the book...yet), I would say that the benefits aren't necessarily too out of line. Monks definitely seem to get the most benefit out of it, but I imagine most of those effects can be duplicated via magic items or spells.
Willie the Duck 10-26-03, 08:58 PM	Sorry, don't buy it (the argument, I own the book). The bonuses given match pretty clearly with the standard combat-benifiting magic items you would get at a corresponding levels. For each bonus to ability scores, there is a periapt of wisdom and gauntlets of ogre power that you can't wear. For every +1 enhancement to attack, there's a +1 weapon you aren't using. For every +1 deflection bonus you get, that's a ring of protection that you can't wear. As to the bonus exalted feats that you get, unless you are battleing alot of demons, the only useful ones are the other vows, which each have their own drawbacks. Even if it might be slightly better than what you would have at that level (I disagree with this) note that it only effects combat magic items and food/water/winter clothes. You can't have a ring of feather fall, you can't have that collapsable boat, you can't even have potions of cure light wounds (the mainstay magic item of most games). You also can't have cold iron or chaotic weapon, so there are some creatures you simply can't effect. Yes, it does min/max a little for the monk (since it gives you some ac bonuses because you can't wear armor, but a monk wouldn't have) but note that the best monk feats in the book require a charisma of 15, so now you need 5 of 6 attributes (6 if you want combat expertise). I wouldn't suggest it for min/maxers. It does fit with the concept of an ascetic monk very well though.
Dave1001 10-26-03, 08:58 PM	Originally posted by Haradim Since it seems you can't even have a +1 weapon (I don't have the book...yet), I would say that the benefits aren't necessarily too out of line. Monks definitely seem to get the most benefit out of it, but I imagine most of those effects can be duplicated via magic items or spells. you don't need to get a magic weapon, because the exalted bonus gives you a +1 bonus to hit and damage (up to +5 at 20th level), and on top of that you get to overcome various DR. And while pretty much everything can be duplicated, unless you're running a monty haul campaign you won't see as many magical items that produce those sorts of abilities. Items that give energy resistance 15 to all 5 types? Continual true seeing? And none of them can ever be dispelled. That's where the real power lies.
Willie the Duck 10-26-03, 09:10 PM	Originally posted by Haradim Since it seems you can't even have a +1 weapon (I don't have the book...yet), I would say that the benefits aren't necessarily too out of line. Monks definitely seem to get the most benefit out of it, but I imagine most of those effects can be duplicated via magic items or spells. actually everything can be duplicated by magic items, since it is designed to replace the magic items you give up. It gives you an enhancement bonus to your damage (magic weapon), resistance bonus to saves (cloak), deflection and natural armor bonuses to ac (ring and amulet) enhancement bonuses to ability scores (gloves, amulets, girdles, headbands, whatever), energy resistances (rings or spells), as well as making you immune to starvation, death from exposure, and eventually suffocation. The only part that I can see to complain about (aside from the specific numbers, which are un/balanced strictly based on opinions) is that the ac bonus that replaces your armor is 1) an exalted bonus instead of an armor bonus, and thus stacks with mage armor spell, and 2) immaterial to a monk, whom wouldn't be wearing armor anyway. Here's a way to break it: take a human monk and get the vow of poverty feat at first level. make your highest stat Wis and 2nd highest Dex. Make Wisdom your primary bonus attribute as well and Dex your 2ndary. Go up to 6th level that way, at nearest opportunity, gain the Sainthood template, which gives your total wisdom bonus as an insight bonus to your AC as well. Now you have a broken character build. One small problem: it can't be done! No Munchkin/Powergamer/MinMaxer or whatever can never commit an evil deed, much less resist the temptation of cool items. Even if they could, they'll never qualify for sainthood without DM callusion.
Jell_Moo 10-26-03, 09:42 PM	The only real advantage to Vow of Poverty is for monks concentrating on being a wizard killer. By having nothing to dispel, they become much better at wizard slaying. No other class is going to benefit as much as monk would. Also, take note that while the monk does gain quite a bit, he loses a lot too. No potions of healing, can have no items to allow him flight, underwater breathing, teleporting, etc... He becomes totally dependent on party spellcasters to cover these things. Also, while all those bomus exalted feats might look nice in theory, they aren't really all that spectacular. The best ones tend to use your Cha mod which is usually a dump stat for monks. Don't get me wrong, I do think the feat goes way overboard. If a player wants to play his character like this it should be an option, and it should be at least somewhat viable, but it shouldn't come quite so close as it does to equalling a fully equiped character. As for the Celestial Mystic, I don't see a problem with that PrC at all. He gains some very nice abilities, but will forever be a level behind other spellcasters. That's pretty darn sucky. Also, he has to take three fairly useless feats to join. The benifits are nice, but the prereqs and the cost is pretty high.
Dragoninawheelchair 10-27-03, 12:39 AM	The most important thing in this debate is that the DM has to allow it. A DM that knows what he is doing and isn't running some stupid monty haul or "I'm cool because all we do is roleplay" campaign he should know better than to allow certain things in his world. Just because it's an official supplement doesn't mean that he/she has to allow it. If you have a problem with it, don't use it. In a campaign that is designed around a bunch of celestial creatures those feats are fine in my opinion. It just means that the DM is gonna have fun using all the stuff from the BoVD to make his demons, devils, and other evil outsiders that much more of a challenge. In no one shape or fourm should most of the material be allowed in a normal campaign. :twocents:
Xeviat-DM 10-27-03, 02:48 AM	I was currious about this feat myself, so I tested it. There were a few items that I couldn't find, so I estamated their cost. The feat turns out to be worth as much or just a bit more than the appropriate amount of equipment you should have at each level. The only things I don't like about the feat are the bonus exalted feats a character is suposed to gain; that pushes it overboard.
Xorial 10-27-03, 10:08 AM	Originally posted by Dave1001 well I would, but despite being 25 the boards won't allow me access. You propably forgot to have your birthday posted for all to see. If you dont do that, it wont let you into those boards.
bitnine 10-27-03, 11:08 AM	Originally posted by Xorial You propably forgot to have your birthday posted for all to see. If you dont do that, it wont let you into those boards. I somehow doubt that that is correct, as I've posted there myself, and as you can easily ascertain, my birthday is listed as (hidden).
Xorial 10-27-03, 11:18 AM	I had mine hidden before, but then suddenly I wasnt able to go to those boards. As soon as I made my b-day visible, I could go there again.
Nick Soapdish 10-27-03, 04:00 PM	Originally posted by ConfusedUs If you read the disclaimer, this is a resource intended not for PCs, but for DMs, just like the BoVD. However, the bonuses you get from the vow of poverty are approximately equal to what you would normally get from magic items, which you may not own. It's not nearly as bad as you might think. Assuming a monk with vow of poverty +15 to AC from this class Assuming normal monk +5 ring of protection +5 amulet of nat armor +6 gloves of dex (+3 AC) +6 headband of wisdom (+3 AC) that's +16 from magic items, and the dex/wis does more than just add to AC. Actually, the Vow of Poverty will eventually allow a +8 bonus to one stat and a +6 to another. Which duplicates (and betters) the gloves and periapt. But I'm not sure if they'd be able to get inherent bonuses since you're still using wealth (at least if it's the books; I don't see why the party wizard can't cast a bunch of wishes on you, although you may have to ask him to keep from using scrolls). And you also ignored the possibility of bracers of armor +8 for the not-so impoverished monk. I think that it probably evens out, but I haven't really looked through the Exalted feats so that's just off the cuff.
Llewelynn 10-27-03, 04:10 PM	As a GM, I'm planning on letting a monk PC take the Vow of Poverty. He's going to be pretty powerful with the bonuses. However, he's going to have to "live" an exemplary life, and trust me when I say that he's going to pay for each advantage. Sure, he may be allowed to take Exalted feats a lot, but there will be times that I, as GM, decide he doesn' t merit them. Some of those feats will probably be lost unless he's so startlingly good that he makes evil people feel bad just for being in his presence. The BoED has to be used with a GM that will add the balance to it. And Sainthood? It should be darned near impossible. Personally, I don't see many of my players being able to live up to the standards in the BoED. You should have seen them cringe when I read the descriptions of what a good character is expected to do.
Kalanth 10-27-03, 06:04 PM	I love my BoED and my BoVD, but in this modern world, there will always be someone with some problem or the other about something. This book will not be good enough for everone to truly enjoy it, but that is ok. As for the Vow of Poverty, if you consider the character cannot have any magic items at all, this is a good, balanced feet. The eventuall boosts help make up for the loss of items. My favorite thing in the book is the Skylord, with the Beloved of Valarin (sp?) next, and the Bahamot PrC after that. The PrC's are very intreging and well thought out, and most assuredly usefull, but the feets. There are a lot of feets that just don't seem to fit, cool feets, but just don't work in a lot of situations.
Willie the Duck 10-27-03, 09:24 PM	Originally posted by Llewelynn As a GM, I'm planning on letting a monk PC take the Vow of Poverty. He's going to be pretty powerful with the bonuses. However, he's going to have to "live" an exemplary life, and trust me when I say that he's going to pay for each advantage. Sure, he may be allowed to take Exalted feats a lot, but there will be times that I, as GM, decide he doesn' t merit them. Some of those feats will probably be lost unless he's so startlingly good that he makes evil people feel bad just for being in his presence. That's just wrong. You've already decided to set him up for a fall? Why? Because he wants to try a challenging role? You should be encouraging that. If you think the feat is munchy, alter it. Don't bizch-slap him across the room for it. I'd hate to be the guy trying to play a paladin in your campaing.
bitnine 10-28-03, 12:19 AM	Originally posted by Llewelynn The BoED has to be used with a GM that will add the balance to it. Indeed. I find it a little regretful when there are books like the BoVD that have some interesting concepts and material, yet such inconsistency in balance that a DM needs to be careful with each entry that he allows into his game, particularly in the player's hands. That sort of wariness, while nice to have, should not be necessary.
Greyman 10-28-03, 01:45 AM	Originally posted by Llewelynn However, he's going to have to "live" an exemplary life, and trust me when I say that he's going to pay for each advantage. Sure, he may be allowed to take Exalted feats a lot, but there will be times that I, as GM, decide he doesn' t merit them. Some of those feats will probably be lost unless he's so startlingly good that he makes evil people feel bad just for being in his presence. Originally posted by Willie the Duck That's just wrong. You've already decided to set him up for a fall? Why? Because he wants to try a challenging role? You should be encouraging that. If you think the feat is munchy, alter it. Don't bizch-slap him across the room for it. I'd hate to be the guy trying to play a paladin in your campaing. That's not what Llewelynn's saying, Willie t. Duck. The price of Exaulted feats is the challenging role. In order to keep them the player must be prepared to play that role to the hilt, which is invariably difficult to maintain. It does not require a DM to test and tempt the character to Jobian destruction. It does, however, require the DM to be vigilant, warning the player against minor lapses, and not permitting the least violation to slip passed his guard. The equation is simple: play the alignment you've choosen, or change it to match the way you choose to play. The only difference is that Exaulted is much harder to play than merely Good. However the rewards for sticking to it are comprably greater too.
Llewelynn 10-28-03, 08:50 AM	Greyman has it exactly right. I'm not talking about taking things away from a character just for spite. That's not the way I GM. However, will I put him in situations where it's tough to be good? You bet I will. There will be times that being good will be difficult. That's the entire point. And will I give him advice on what I see as the 'good' choice if its merited? Sure. I won't just spring a trap on him. In that way, good players have an advantage, in that they won't ever be tricked into doing something evil or ungood...they'll have to choose it. I just had to have a long discussion with one of my players who contends that playing good by the standards in the BoED is impossible. It's nothing of the sort, and I gave him a bunch of examples of how he could roleplay around each of his concerns while maintaining goodness. Playing a good character that fails once in a while is pretty easy really. Playing one that will be eligible for Exalted feats is going to be pretty darned hard though. To quote Tom Hanks from "A League of Their Own" ... "The hard is what makes it great!"
bitnine 10-28-03, 09:35 AM	Noooo...! Doing good should be easy. Or at the very least, you should include what's easy to do (efficient/convenient/pragmatic) as part of what you consider good acts. Good should never be inconvenient, it should just determine who your enemies are and what color hat you wear. Wait - I don't think I actually believe all of the above. Maybe it's sarcasm. I think that'd explain it.
ruleslawyer 10-28-03, 03:54 PM	Originally posted by Dave1001 you don't need to get a magic weapon, because the exalted bonus gives you a +1 bonus to hit and damage (up to +5 at 20th level), and on top of that you get to overcome various DR. And while pretty much everything can be duplicated, unless you're running a monty haul campaign you won't see as many magical items that produce those sorts of abilities. Items that give energy resistance 15 to all 5 types? Continual true seeing? And none of them can ever be dispelled. That's where the real power lies. They still go away in an AMF. And you WILL see those items in a regular campaign; they can be made by members of a PC party. I do think that VoP is a bit overpowered specifically for the monk and the sorcerer. For any other character, it's a death sentence. The really "breakable" part of VoP is getting other characters to load you up with temporary magical effects or wish-granted abilities.
PhaedrusXY 10-28-03, 04:26 PM	Originally posted by Willie the Duck The only part that I can see to complain about (aside from the specific numbers, which are un/balanced strictly based on opinions) is that the ac bonus that replaces your armor is 1) an exalted bonus instead of an armor bonus, and thus stacks with mage armor spell, and 2) immaterial to a monk, whom wouldn't be wearing armor anyway. Monks can normally use Bracers of Armor to get an Armor bonus to AC, so the AC bonus they get from the feat replaces this. It seems that all the stuff they get are things that would normally be had through magic items in a D&D game with a standard level of magic items. If you run your games with low magic, and/or don't let the PCs have access to the items they'd choose for themselves, and instead make them take whatever you give them, then yes, this is probably overpowered for your games. But notice that the "normal" D&D game is relatively high magic, and that the PCs are assumed to have access to getting the magic items that they want for themselves. I'm not saying that low magic games are bad, or that the DM controlling access to magic items is bad, I'm just saying that if you look at the standard rules for PC wealth, and the magic items that the example NPCs have in the DMG (which are noted as substantially lower than an equal level PC should have), the game assumes a relatively high level of access to magic items. The Vow of Poverty was made with this level of magic in mind.
WizO_Catoblepas 10-28-03, 05:34 PM	This belongs over on the BoED Board. I'll move it there.