Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mreece380 03-15-04, 08:31 AM	IN our groups we have outlawed the book of exalted deeds since when compared to theother books we find it way over powered. Its countr part the book of vile darkness is severly less powerful in the fact that if u take a prestige from eatherbook we elive the book of exalted deeds is so much morepowerful and heavy hitting. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?
DM Zoc 03-15-04, 08:45 AM	Numerically speaking, it is powerful. It's the same deal as a paladin: more powerful because it's harder to play. Keep in mind that most everything in the book requires you to be exalted, and you pretty much lose everything if you do an even remotely-evil act, like telling a small lie in order to save the world. On the other hand, it's much easier to be evil.
Edymnion 03-15-04, 08:52 AM	Originally posted by DM Zoc Numerically speaking, it is powerful. It's the same deal as a paladin: more powerful because it's harder to play. Keep in mind that most everything in the book requires you to be exalted, and you pretty much lose everything if you do an even remotely-evil act, like telling a small lie in order to save the world. On the other hand, it's much easier to be evil. Yes, you have to be Exalted to use this stuff. That doesn't mean good. That doesn't mean very good. That means you're "Oh my God, I make a Paladin look like a ho' beatin' pimp I'm so good!" good. You do anything that is even slightly evil, and you lose ALL of your exalted stuff, and you CAN'T get it back, its just gone.
lantzer 03-15-04, 08:52 AM	Its the usual story. It goes by several names: Book envy, Book inflation, splat addiction, etc. To sell the new book, the company makes sure it has cooler stuff in it than the older books. Usually "cooler" is defined as being more powerful. It's a pity. This happened back in 2nd edition with the splat books as well. They started off well, with the Complete Book of Thieves. That was a good book - nothing mechanically overpowered, just a whole load of background material for thief characters. You could tell a lot of work went into that book. Over time, as the "Complete" series came out, the books got less nifty background material, and more unbalanced kits, culminating in the laughable Elves book and the scary Bard's book. Although the Elve's book was primarily badly written and full of silly stuff, the Bard's book was chock-full of overpowered kits. (I remember the loremaster kit - a better mage than a wizard was.) The same sort of stuff is happening now. Luckily, GM's have the ability to pick and choose stuff. If a player wants to bring something from a splatbook to my game, I look at the addition on its own, and decide for myself if I want to accept, deny, or modify it to my liking. If that new rule causes problems in my game, I have only myself to blame, and I work with the player to fix it. If the player is of the sort who cannot be reasoned with, he won't be in my game long anyway. The whole book inflation problem is not unique to DnD, by the way. I think the most obvious example of the phenomenon took place in the Paladium Rifts setting.
Salla 03-15-04, 10:45 AM	The Book of Exalted Deeds is only overpowered if your DM doesn't enforce the code of conduct for being exalted. If your DM is one of those 'Sure, you can kill the kobold whelps in their sleep, Mr. Paladin' types, then the BoED will be overpowered. If he fully intends to lower the divine boom on your head if you screw up, then it's fine. P.S. Lying is chaotic, not evil. CG Exalted can lie in the right circumstances without reprisal.
Drock 03-15-04, 11:02 AM	I haven't used the exhalted feats or any of the prestige classes but i have made extensive use of the Sanctified Spells. At first they may seem overpowered, esp when you consider you can cast them spontaneously. However, it only took 3 castings to leave me with a str of 2. Since i have a decent STR score it was ok and the rest of the group was able to carry me away. I like the sacrifice you have to make to cast the spells. Its the whole greater power at a greater cost thing. I think there is a good balance and the previous posters had it right. if the DM enforces what they're supposed to the restrictions should take care of themselves. In our group we have a Paladin/Monk with the vow of Poverty, yes he gets insane bonuses but he has to stick very close to his codes. Not to mention not having a single magic item! He has to donate, give away, or spend on the poor all the gold he gets. Its a pain in the arse to buy extra stuff but have someone carry it for him and give it to him when he needs it as a gift since he cant possess anything.
Beamup 03-15-04, 11:12 AM	There can be some very interesting RP opportunities and screwing over that do a great deal of balancing. For example, there's a character in a campaign I'm playing who's an Exalted Drunken Master with a Vow of Poverty. It can be very interesting to see how he can manage to get booze to power his drunkenness without breaking the Vow or doing something evil. "Can I use your bathtub to brew some beer in?" *gets really strange look* So in this case we have a character where the Exalted stuff is proving to be a major hindrance, making it very difficult to access his primary class abilities. So, I'd have to say that if the requirements are properly implemented and enforced, it works out all right. Originally posted by Drock Its a pain in the arse to buy extra stuff but have someone carry it for him and give it to him when he needs it as a gift since he cant possess anything. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that circumventing the Vow in this manner is not at all allowed.
Eramith 03-15-04, 11:51 AM	Originally posted by Beamup I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that circumventing the Vow in this manner is not at all allowed. [/B] If the group members buy extra potions because they know their friend cannot, it's fine. However, if the VoP guy is asking them to buy him potions and keep them for him, then he is breaking his vow. Personally, if I were adventuring with someone and knew that they'd only be able to accept potions as a gift, I would buy some extra. Afterall, the guy is my friend and I wouldn't want him dying on the battle field. Whether he would even accept them or not is a different question though. The BoED says that he may, but a VoP player may even decide that the taking of a potion, even to save his life, could be better used on someone else. In short, it's really the motives behind the buying of extra stuff, but only in regard to the VoP player. The rest of the group can buy him tons of things, but he must choose to deny them or break his vow.
danielinthewolvesden 03-15-04, 12:29 PM	Note that there is an area just for discussions of the BoED. See "Mature assessories". This belong there, I think. But it is not "over powered". The PrC's are very hard to qualify for. I have never seen one played.
bahamut_0 03-15-04, 01:03 PM	Sorry if I'm hijacking this thread, but I just thought I'd throw in a quick question. I was debating which book to get (ED or VD), and reading this thread has leaned me more towards VD. It's just my players aren't really into being "exalted" (frankly speaking, either am I), and it's always much easier to be evil. Basically I'm just asking which contains the best material IYO. Again sorry for "hijacking" this, but I figured it's easier than posting a new thread.
detectevil 03-15-04, 01:21 PM	I am a typical paladin goody too shooes. Therefore, you must take my word. The Book of Vile Darkness is great, and the Book of Exalted Deeds sucks. The reason is simple: In the BoVD, Monte Cook caught perfecly the nature of evil. It has great flavor in it, that you must apreciate. Even if you don't intend to play an evil character, it gives a great insight into what is evil. The BoED is terrible in this way. The people who wrote it had no idea what they were talking about, and only repeated the same examples we are all sick of hearing. And they even contradict themselves with examples of how killing evil is good while not killing evil is good too. The book is just a bunch of feats and prestige classes that, overpowered or not, add nothing to the game.
bahamut_0 03-15-04, 01:34 PM	Thanks, that's pretty much what I had gathered myself, thanks for the confirmation.
Eramith 03-15-04, 01:43 PM	I'd have to disagree that the book sucks. I haven't read through all of VD, so I don't anything to say about that book, but I have read through BoED a few times trying to figure out character concepts (one of which I'm playing now). There is a simple truth the fact that it is just easier to be evil that it is to be good. There is also not the same definition of good like there is a common definition for evil. So, is killing an evil creature an evil act. Both yes and no. The nature of good depends on circumstance while the nature of evil does not. Example: Is it evil to strike down a Red Wizard of Thay while he is eating dinner, and thus not in a position to defend himself. The answer is yes. Is it evil to strike him down while he is attacking a small village, no. The evil doesn't lie in the act of killing, but it lies in the way in which it is conducted. This might seem contradictory, but it is not. I will agree that I don't think the book is wonderful, I do think it is very good and I don't regret purchasing it at all. Yes, there are definately places that they could have added more flavor and I think the artwork in the book doesn't really match what being exalted is (it seems more twisted than holy). For bahamut_0, if you're not interested in playing exalted characters, then definately do not purchase the book. :)
bahamut_0 03-15-04, 01:48 PM	Originally posted by Eramith For bahamut_0, if you're not interested in playing exalted characters, then definately do not purchase the book. :) Yeah, I kinda gathered that ;) still I thought it may have some interesting concepts, however seeming as you have to follow a pretty strict code, I'll go for VD for now.
crazysamaritan 03-15-04, 01:59 PM	I'm sorry, but I can put this in no politer terms. You are wrong. I myself, prefer to being caotic good, but everyone of my friends calls me LG. (even the ones who don't play DnD) Evil is easy, there is no doubt about it. Anyone can commit evil, and someone dedicated to evil will find many things to do. Good, however, is harder to pin down. Jihad, anyone? IMO, killing is ALWAYS evil. HOWEVER, killing good is a good act. I do not advise running around killing evil people (at least, not in this society). But if someone must die I would prefer it to be an evil person. The best thing good can to is not kill, imprison, or polymorph evil, it is to redeem evil. These are my own opinions. In the cosmology of DnD, killing evil is a good/CG act, and arresting/turning in evil is a Lawful Good act. That said, I will not use ravages. That is the one peice of BOED I refuse to use. I think it's gamebreaking how an infection could concieveably pass through a town and eradicate all but the good/neutral people. Not a likely senario, but IMO, illogical.
Eramith 03-15-04, 02:17 PM	Originally posted by crazysamaritan I'm sorry, but I can put this in no politer terms. You are wrong. That's alright; you can think I'm wrong :). I think where we differ is that I'm arguing for what is good in the realm of DnD and you are brining in aspects of real life for personal judgement on what is right and wrong, which is totally fine. I'm just arguing that in DnD, killing is not an evil act. Originally posted by crazysamaritan The best thing good can to is not kill, imprison, or polymorph evil, it is to redeem evil. I agree 100%! (my character concept is a guy with VoPeace). But what if this evil cannot be redeemed? Do you let it continue its evil rampage or do you put a stop to the evil? Obviously, my character has no choice but to let it live (unless it is undead), but in the grander scheme, does an exalted good character need to let it live? That would be showing mercy, and it would be showing that good has more power, but it also possibly means the lives of countless other innocent (or not so innocnent) creatures. I say possibly, because there is no certaintity. I don't think any exalted character would not (and definately should not) feel good that he had to kill another living being, but the exalted path isn't supposed to make you feel good. Sometimes there are no other ways, like you said, and someone must die. Originally posted by crazysamaritan That said, I will not use ravages. That is the one peice of BOED I refuse to use. I think it's gamebreaking how an infection could concieveably pass through a town and eradicate all but the good/neutral people. Not a likely senario, but IMO, illogical. Hehe, what about passover? :)
Perseus 03-15-04, 04:34 PM	Take it from a guy who's fighter had his heart ripped out and crushed from across the room in the 1st round of combat, the BoVD is MUCH more powerful than the BoED. I specifically went out and bought the BoED looking for ways to combat the BoVD and was very dissappointed.
J. Grenemyer 03-15-04, 05:11 PM	Hello Disciple of Frank (err.. detectevil), ;) Originally posted by detectevil The people who wrote it had no idea what they were talking about, and only repeated the same examples we are all sick of hearing. And they even contradict themselves with examples of how killing evil is good while not killing evil is good too. The book is just a bunch of feats and prestige classes that, overpowered or not, add nothing to the game. To each his own and all that, but I couldn't disagree more if I tried. Not only did the authors define the concept of Good (as it applies to DnD), they demonstrated precisely how to take the concept to the extremes necessary in order to run Exalted characters. The section on how to decide the "theme" of a campaign prior to starting play was also very well written, with game balance and player expectations firmly in mind. And as for "adding to the game", the BoED is as much an excellent resource of crunchy material (feats, etc..) as it is fluffy material. Further, I was surprised by how useful this book was to me as a DM, as I was very skeptical about it being of any use to me other than as a rules reference for what the Paladin in my game wanted to use. (I had assumed it was a resource targeted primarily at Players and not DM’s.) All in all, the BoED has given me as a DM a much clearer perspective on the concept of Good in the DnD game, as well as a large assortment of unique spells, magic items and creatures to throw at my party. If there’s money burning a hole in your pocket, the BoED is as good a product to spend it on as anything else out there. :D
Willie the Duck 03-15-04, 08:45 PM	I really think the discussion of the nature of D&D good/evil belongs on the mature boards, people! As to the book: after careful inspection and some actual game trials, me and my groups have determined that the stuff in the BoED is not significantly more powerful than any other non-core WotC product (i.e. within the "splatbook" threshold.). Yes, there are some poorly thought out things that or unforseen interactions with other splatbooks that could lead to abuse, but that's true of any splatbook. None of the prestige classes are that powerful. None of the monsters make a overpowered character if played under savage species rules. None of the magic items kicks butt too far out of its price range. most of the feats are only great if you fight demons alot. Vow of poverty gives you benifits that are slightly better than the magic items you are sacrificing to have it. Touch of golden Ice and Nymphs kiss are a bit overpowered for a single feat, but hard to wrap an abusive build around So, is the book broken compared to pure-CORE D&D? Yes. Is it worse than complete warrior or masters of the wild? not really.
Sheer_FALACY 03-15-04, 09:17 PM	Originally posted by detectevil The reason is simple: In the BoVD, Monte Cook caught perfecly the nature of evil. It has great flavor in it, that you must apreciate. Even if you don't intend to play an evil character, it gives a great insight into what is evil. Which part of evil did he catch perfectly? The necrophilia? The ugliness? The grossness? The stupidity? The inability to wear clothes (ok, that was the artists)? Perhaps it was the servitude, or the inability to lead even a reasonably normal life.
wolffenjugend 03-16-04, 12:40 AM	I actually like the BoED much more than the BoVD. The latter is too cliched (IMO) and doesn't do enough to portray the everyday evils that can be truly disturbing (i.e. peoples' ability to close their eyes to the evil going on around them and thereby contribute to the growth of that same evil; or the psycho's ability to find absolutely nothing wrong with the twisted acts they do). I found the BoVD to be a "Look at me! I'm twisted!" attempt at shock value. The BoED is powerful and shouldn't be used by weak-willed DMs who can't stand up to their players. But if used wisely, it can be a great addition. I've already incorporated the Vow of Poverty into an NPC (it fits perfectly) and I'm hoping to soon use the rules for converting evil items to good.
hyphz 03-16-04, 08:03 AM	The problem is that they don't give clear explanations of good and evil. Particularly, the question of whether they're judged deontologically or consequentially (that's philosophy talk for "whether you're judged by actions or results"). At the moment we have a Paladin in the party, and a Druid with Vow of Poverty (a decidedly powergamey feat for a Druid). We also have a wizard who is good, but who owns the shadow-staff, a seriously evil artifact. In a recent fight, the wizard used the shadow-staff to summon evil undead creatures, who however helped the party defeat a Balor. Without the undead's help, the Balor would have killed the party. Should the Paladin be tolerating that? Would it be more Good for the party to be dead? If the Paladin does object, how can he show his objection? If you use the rigid alignment system then, since it's the staff that's evil rather than the wizard, the paladin can't attack the staff-wielding wizard as he'd be attacking somebody good..
Eramith 03-16-04, 12:44 PM	I thought it was pretty clear that you were judged by your actions and not the results of your actions. There is a long discussion about how doing an evil act, even if it will bring about immense good, is still and evil act and you'd lose your exalted status for such an act. A Paladin, whether exalted or not, would never stand by a party member that uses an evil artifact such as the shadow staff. Also, an exalted character would NEVER be in cohorts with a character using such an evil item; instead, they would seek to destroy it (or redeem it if possible, but it is a major artifact and probably impossible to). The Druid should be the one that is objecting more so than the Paladin, but both should be objecting. I would also begin shifting the alignment of the Wizard that is using such an evil artifict. "Would it be more Good for the party to be dead?" Yes! All have commited acts of evil and any who are exalted should lose their status as such.
Willie the Duck 03-16-04, 09:14 PM	I think hyphz meant action vs. intent (which are more important, ends or means?). Perhaps a better question for the paladin's group would be: which is better, to have the party use the evil artifact, or the party be dead and the evil artifact be in the hands of an archfiend?
Thelon Fairblade 03-17-04, 09:00 AM	There are some great moral discussions on "good" acts vs intent on the Mature boards. I've really enjoyed several of them. But that isn't the topic of the thread, so should be avoided. On topic, I don't find most of the BoED to be overpowered. For example, taking two feats to get +2 to Diplomacy, glow like a torch, and do d4 damage per round to any undead within 10'. Sound overpowered to you? Glow like a torch, and *d4* to undead? How about this: Weapon Focus + 1 feat to do.... +1 damage to evil targets, +d4 to evil outsiders, and treat your weapon as "good" for bypassing DR. Much more powerful, but still fine. Obscenely overpowered.... if your campaign revolves around combatting evil outsiders. Most of the time, though, it does nothing (neutral critters, magical beasts, plants, etc), or +1 damage (orcs, giants, most foes). Low-power: Holy Smite: when you use a Smite attack, it is considered "holy" (to bypass DR), and inflicts +2d6 damage to evil targets. Okay, nice, but remember you only get 1 Smite per 5 levels! (More if you take the Fist of Raziel PrC, which focuses on Smites) Low-power: Vow of Abstinence. Requires Sacred Vow as well, must give up alcohol and drugs. In exchange you get a whopping +4 to Fort saves! Oh, wait, only to saves against drugs and poison, and you lose the feat if someone slips you a spiked drink... [Take Poison Resistance from any number of supplement books, for a +4 to poison, always active, no restrictions!] However, there is a hideously overpowered feat: (no, not Vow of Poverty, which has spawned hundreds of posts for and against)... Touch of Golden Ice. You inflict, with *every* natural attack [read: monk feat], a 2000gp-per-dose evil-only disease! ("ravage", mentioned by a previous poster) Oh, and the prereq is a mere "CON 13"... So.... as with any book, the DM needs to examine what is being used. I would say 60% of the feats are low-power or specific-circumstance-only, 30% are nice, and 10% are overpowered. The PrCs vary in strength and usefulness. I haven't spent enough time examining them to judge if they are overpowered. I liked the Annointed Knight, though, which looked pretty powerful for a fully twinked character (meaning something like CHA 24 at 7th level)... There are a couple weapon and armor enchantments that are way more valuable than their cost.. but at the moment, I can't name them. Wait, here's one: Soulfire (armor). +4 enhancement, immune to magical death effects, energy drain, negative energy, and death spells. I.e. Permanent Death Ward, always on! Here's another: Paralyzing (weapon). For a mere +2 enhancement, every hit with the weapon causes a DC 17 Fort save or be paralyzed for 10 rounds (new save every round). I.e. Hold Monster on every hit! Compare that to flaming burst... Of course, YMMV!
Schmendrick 03-17-04, 03:22 PM	Briefly: yes, the BoED is very powerful, moreso than the BoVD. But the BoED has a Code of Conduct, and the BoVD doesn't. The most stringent the BoVD gets is that you must be of evil alignment; that's not too hard to qualify for. But the BoED doesn't just require that you're good, it requires that you're very good (as has been already stated). Also note that in the D&D cosmology good is supposed to have a slight balance benefit over evil. Throw a Balor or a Pit Fiend (the strongest core demon/devils) against a Solar (the strongest angel). Who wins? In D&D, the archetypical party of PCs (who generally "win") is good, and good generally triumphs over evil; that's the default flavor of the game. Good's s'posed to be more mechanically powerful.
jkovacik 03-17-04, 04:29 PM	If you are a DM, the BoED is a *must have*, IMO. My current party is good. But sometimes careless. BoED NPCs make *GREAT* enemies for good players. I'm using them in my campaign. "The end does not justify the means. Yes, we know you were fighting a lich, but your fireball killed an innocent bystander as well. We're here to place you under arrest for murder." The NPCs are more powerful, and geared towards subdual/neutralization rather than killing. A total party wipeout at the hands of Exalted NPCs is *IMPOSSIBLE*, although the party can easily be overwhelmingly defeated. I don't think one of my players could play an exalted character, however.
NestroEmichae 03-17-04, 07:04 PM	To be honest, yes. And this is comming from someone who has introduced guns into the game and has a family of NPCs that can produce artifacts when they combine their power (note: this family has thousands of magic-using members, is descended from a god, and has a few gods and quasi-dieties in the current mix) (note2: the family also has their own universe that is entirely devoted to them that the PCs can never visit). I should also note I banned some of the BoVD for being overpowered or outside of what I will allow the players to do as well. I banned most of the rest because it is either Stupid Evil or Childish Evil. What little is left amounts to a couple of spells and a magic item enhancement available on Crystal Keep.
devinmdp 03-17-04, 10:20 PM	First, I find it amazing that some people expected a definitive analysis of the nature of good and evil in these two books. Philosophers have been debating the very subject for two thousand years to no avail, yet you expect some schlubs at WOTC to define it for you? All the psycho-babble in both BOED and BOVD are there only for the truly clueless. Most good DMs can and have already decided what constitutes good and evil for their campaigns. Aside from that, the BOED has plenty of good stuff in it. And remember, it is WOTC's underlying axiom that good ultimately defeats evil. This is why devas have been more powerful than tanar'ri. The BOED should be more powerful than the BOVD. From a player's perspective, it's already been well said, but I will reiterate. It's much easier to play evil. Evil PrCs from the BOVD can even be kind on occasion when it suits them. However, Good PrCs from the BOED must be pristine. That, if a DM is running it properly, is a major restriction on all that power the Exalted PrCs seem to wield. What good is a super gapper zapper power if you can't use it in most situations due to moral dilemmas? Got an Exalted ability to cause 10D8 damage to all within 100 feet? Great! Can't use it in town when being attacked by rogues due to innocents nearby. Can't use it in the goblin den because some goblin whelps are nearby. Can't use it against the bandits because their hostages might be killed by it. So maybe the Evil PrC only gets to do 6D8 damage in a 60 ft radius....but he can use it all the time as much as he likes. Devin
Willie the Duck 03-17-04, 11:07 PM	Thank you, Thelon Fairblade, for being the first poster with complaints about the power level to actually list some things that you think are overpowered. I agree that some of the magic items are overpowered for their cost, but not game breaking. Here's my response (and I'll predicate it by stipulating that I don't think much in the book is seriously overpowered) Anointed knight: a decent PrC. If you ubermunchkin your Cha, you gain a few decent benifits (dr 3/-, an extra single attack in a round 3/day, +2d6 vs evil creature 3/day) while getting a nearly indestructable weapon (you should also arrange with the DM to have a member of your order give you an adamantine weapon as your ancestral weapon, meaning you need DM callusion to twink out this PrC). Certianly not overpowered compared to Tome and Blood or Complete Warrior. Soulfire armor: Not deathward on all the time: This does not damage the offending undead like the spell does. Yes it gives you immunities to certain types of attack. There are lots of items like that, many costing less than 24000gp (minimum cost boost of a +4 mod on armors). Touch of golden Ice: The ascribed "cost" of the poison is irrelivant. That just means that buying the poison seperately is a bad idea. The true judgement is its power. And let me say, this is not a strong poison damage 1d6dex/2d6dex is okay, but the DC is 14! A Hemophiliac Wizard can make that every time. It would certainly be balanced if you couldn't take it until level 8 or so. Seriously, this stuff isn't that dangerous.
NestroEmichae 03-17-04, 11:50 PM	You want my list? I have nothing for it to attempt to balance. Since the BoVD is pretty much out of the question (and not the topic question, just an explanation), there is no need for the BoED.
VigorMortis 03-18-04, 12:47 PM	The problem of Soulfire Armor lies not within the item itself, but of the spell Death Ward. Two things from the BoED that are sickening overpowered: Sublime Revelry (well, those two spells that halve your damage) and the Retributive Amulet. Still, I'd not throw the baby out with the bathwater... The BoED has been of great help in my plans for the Theocracy, a major antagonistic faction in my games. Generally, most enemy factions so far have been evil, occasionally neutral. But, the Theocracy is good; its best summed up as the Holy Roman Empire with exalted and divine power. It just so happens that their Inquisition deals with genuine devil worshippers...
Amiety 03-19-04, 07:23 PM	Originally posted by lantzer It's a pity. This happened back in 2nd edition with the splat books as well. They started off well, with the Complete Book of Thieves. That was a good book - nothing mechanically overpowered, just a whole load of background material for thief characters. You could tell a lot of work went into that book. Over time, as the "Complete" series came out, the books got less nifty background material, and more unbalanced kits, culminating in the laughable Elves book and the scary Bard's book. Funny you should bring that up. I don't have the bards and elves books but I have most of the others and I love them. The Complete Book of Paladins was the best thing I've ever read about paladins. The Complete Book of Gnomes and Halfings totally changed by view about the little folk. For sheer roleplaying inspiration I think that line did more for the game than any accessory before or since. In comparison the 3E class specific books like Sword and Fist were horrible sellouts to the lowest common denominator "more power!" segment of the market. Though I admit I had an inkling things were starting to go off the rails when the Complete Book of Wizards included absurdities like Protection from Magic Weapons and Mantle. IMO BoED is a small step back toward the roleplaying emphasis in that line, which can only be a good thing. To be sure like all 3E supplements acres of space are devoted to feats and prestige classes -Wizards has no doubt concluded this is essential to move product- but BoED goes beyond that to flesh out ideas for playing an archtypically good character. I've always felt that was lacking in D&D - the game had fully developed demon and devil hierarchies right from the 1E core rulebooks but a DM looking for ideas on what a denizen of the Seven Heavens might be like was pretty much left hanging. Although I'm not a fan of prestige classes in general BoED is the first supplement I've seen which doesn't shy away from demanding roleplaying commitments - most 3E PrCs make no real demand on the player other than mandating certain token alignment / skill / feat etc. choices.
Count Arioch the 28th 03-19-04, 07:44 PM	Originally posted by Amiety I don't have the bards and elves books but I have most of the others and I love them. The Complete Book of Paladins was the best thing I've ever read about paladins. The Complete Book of Gnomes and Halfings totally changed by view about the little folk. For sheer roleplaying inspiration I think that line did more for the game than any accessory before or since. In comparison the 3E class specific books like Sword and Fist were horrible sellouts to the lowest common denominator "more power!" segment of the market. Two problems: 1. Sword and fist wasn't a sellout for "more power". If it was, then the writers should be fired for writing such terrible underpowered PrCs. Even the ones that were touted as being uber, wer in fact only average, most sword and fist PrCs were grossly underpowered. 2. Pick up the book of elves sometimes. I have no strong opinions on the bard book, but the book of elves actually was a sellout to powergamers, it was utter blatant powergaming.
Willie the Duck 03-21-04, 07:33 PM	Originally posted by Count Arioch the 28th 1. Sword and fist wasn't a sellout for "more power". If it was, then the writers should be fired for writing such terrible underpowered PrCs. Even the ones that were touted as being uber, wer in fact only average, most sword and fist PrCs were grossly underpowered. To be fair, it was the first splatbook out. They still weren't good at this stuff. I Mean, look at all the typos. By the time they got to masters of the wild or so, splatbooks were clearly better than core. However, the total power level of splat books since then has not risen significantly (in other words, complete warrior or BoED is not significantly more powerful than masters of the wild).
creed 04-15-04, 03:19 PM	Are you guys played a long time campaing of evil characters? Ill telling my experience in this. Try get a long time campaing of evil acts, at some time you have choice in stop a little and do nothing to survive (to have good times in taverns or some enterteniment) or help someone (things wich GMs insists in show up in games to make a session of play), in other words: in some point of adventure you have to make choices wich make you slow down your evil acts for a good game. Think about and post in.