Book of Nine Swords is Chocolicious [Archive] - Wizards Community

Book of Nine Swords is Chocolicious [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Artifact
10-26-07, 01:38 PM In a desperate search for some crunch in the wasteland that is now 3.5 releases, I've finally broke down and purchased the Book of Nine Swords ;). Its proven extremely popular, so I knew it would be worth a try.

As I expected all along however, I'm now faced with a quandry: I like it, and I'm gonna use it, but I'm unsure how and where it fits at my table. My take on things is that the martial adept classes are chocolicious while the standard melee classes are plain ol' vanilla. I'm sure I could use martial adepts alongside the brawlers (as I'll call 'em) without problem (mechanically speaking), but its kinda like a cleric in 1st and 2nd edition:

That is, no one wants to play a boring, walking band-aid while everyone else has the fun ;). So, that's what I'm curious about. Any suggestions on how to make it all fun and enjoyable, without over-shadowing existing brawlers? Or am I missing the point here? What's your guys and gals take on things?

Its a no-go in my homebrew campaign for sure, but I think it may fit in our Forgotten Realms games. Still, I'm left with the quandry about how to mix chocolate with vanilla.

Thanks!

:)
--Art
Ongorth
10-26-07, 02:47 PM I haven't seen the problem, personally. Even after being exposed to both, people seem about evenly split as to which they prefer to play. For many fighter players, ToB classes represent everything they don't like in playing a D&D character: lists of powers to sort through each day and each encounter. For them, the reason they chose to play a fighter was because it was simple. If they had wanted lots of special powers to sort through, they would have picked a wizard.

Really, ToB conflicts less with your fighter/barbarian players and more with your wizard/cleric players.
Jarsallen
10-26-07, 03:39 PM There's a thread that touches on this over in the "What's a player to do" board. It's titled 'All classes not created equal' or something like that, and it has some insights into the ups and downs of just tossing ToB stuff into your game.
Grumman
10-26-07, 07:18 PM If you're worried about overshadowing the brawlers, perhaps you should try not using the classes from the book, and letting NPCs and PCs alike gain the maneuvers and stances by picking the martial feats. That way you can introduce the martial techniques in a way that puts the NPCs on an even footing with existing fighter-types.
Salla
10-26-07, 07:23 PM Your brawlers aren't already used to being overshadowed by the Cleric and Druid?

As far as damage dealing goes, the Warblade (the most offensively-oriented ToB class) falls slightly behind the Barbarian (the most offensively-oriented PHB melee class) in raw damage dealing, except for a few sweet spots where the Warblade picks up a new level of maneuvers and the Barbarian doesn't get a new iterative attack or a rage enhancement. The primary thing that the Martial Adept classes do is give melee characters things to do besides full attack - full attack - full attack.

The fighter and monk were already the two weakest classes in the PHB and should be well used to being outmatched after level 3 or so.
The_Wild_King
10-26-07, 08:21 PM Salla got it right, the main thing that ToB gives melee guys is variety and more flavor
Salla
10-26-07, 09:46 PM Salla got it right, the main thing that ToB gives melee guys is variety and more flavor

Credit where credit is due, I'm mostly parrotting Tempest Stormwind. :)
Artifact
10-27-07, 01:37 AM I can’t seem to get multi-quote to work, so I just copy/pasted the quotes into Word and worked from there :):

Quote by Salla: Your brawlers aren't already used to being overshadowed by the Cleric and Druid?

As far as damage dealing goes, the Warblade (the most offensively-oriented ToB class) falls slightly behind the Barbarian (the most offensively-oriented PHB melee class) in raw damage dealing, except for a few sweet spots where the Warblade picks up a new level of maneuvers and the Barbarian doesn't get a new iterative attack or a rage enhancement. The primary thing that the Martial Adept classes do is give melee characters things to do besides full attack - full attack - full attack.

The fighter and monk were already the two weakest classes in the PHB and should be well used to being outmatched after level 3 or so.

That's what I'm concerned about, more or less. To me, it seems too easy for the fighter to be shown up (if not out-matched) by martial adepts. Its not too much a problem that the fighter is full attack- full attack, ad infinitum until something or somebody drops dead; that is until you bring in something like the Sublime Way; then, its "Hey, I want some of that action!" ;). As The Wild King puts it: “ToB gives melee guys is variety and more flavor”, and I agree, that’s good. I just want to be careful not to "lose touch" with the brawlers in my games, and that seems likely if they come across as less interesting to the players.

But Grumman has helped me find a probable solution.

Quote by Grumman: If you're worried about overshadowing the brawlers, perhaps you should try not using the classes from the book, and letting NPCs and PCs alike gain the maneuvers and stances by picking the martial feats. That way you can introduce the martial techniques in a way that puts the NPCs on an even footing with existing fighter-types.

I’ve only had the book for a couple of days, and between work and family, I’ve had very little time to dig in yet. I just noticed the Martial Study feat. That might be one way I could give the brawlers a taste of the Sublime (so to speak ;)). Thanks!

Quote by Jarsallen: There's a thread that touches on this over in the "What's a player to do" board. It's titled 'All classes not created equal' or something like that, and it has some insights into the ups and downs of just tossing ToB stuff into your game.

I’ll have to check that out, thanks ;)! I know there are threads out there on this topic but I’m not sure where to start looking.

Thanks to everyone for sharing your thoughts. I’ll enjoy the book for sure, I just wanna make sure my player’s get the same enjoyment out of it.

:)
--Art

P.S. What IS up with multi-quote anyway? Its a glitch no doubt, but does anyone know if its being worked? Kinda annoying, so I thought I'd bring it up.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Artifact 10-26-07, 01:38 PM	In a desperate search for some crunch in the wasteland that is now 3.5 releases, I've finally broke down and purchased the Book of Nine Swords ;). Its proven extremely popular, so I knew it would be worth a try. As I expected all along however, I'm now faced with a quandry: I like it, and I'm gonna use it, but I'm unsure how and where it fits at my table. My take on things is that the martial adept classes are chocolicious while the standard melee classes are plain ol' vanilla. I'm sure I could use martial adepts alongside the brawlers (as I'll call 'em) without problem (mechanically speaking), but its kinda like a cleric in 1st and 2nd edition: That is, no one wants to play a boring, walking band-aid while everyone else has the fun ;). So, that's what I'm curious about. Any suggestions on how to make it all fun and enjoyable, without over-shadowing existing brawlers? Or am I missing the point here? What's your guys and gals take on things? Its a no-go in my homebrew campaign for sure, but I think it may fit in our Forgotten Realms games. Still, I'm left with the quandry about how to mix chocolate with vanilla. Thanks! :) --Art
Ongorth 10-26-07, 02:47 PM	I haven't seen the problem, personally. Even after being exposed to both, people seem about evenly split as to which they prefer to play. For many fighter players, ToB classes represent everything they don't like in playing a D&D character: lists of powers to sort through each day and each encounter. For them, the reason they chose to play a fighter was because it was simple. If they had wanted lots of special powers to sort through, they would have picked a wizard. Really, ToB conflicts less with your fighter/barbarian players and more with your wizard/cleric players.
Jarsallen 10-26-07, 03:39 PM	There's a thread that touches on this over in the "What's a player to do" board. It's titled 'All classes not created equal' or something like that, and it has some insights into the ups and downs of just tossing ToB stuff into your game.
Grumman 10-26-07, 07:18 PM	If you're worried about overshadowing the brawlers, perhaps you should try not using the classes from the book, and letting NPCs and PCs alike gain the maneuvers and stances by picking the martial feats. That way you can introduce the martial techniques in a way that puts the NPCs on an even footing with existing fighter-types.
Salla 10-26-07, 07:23 PM	Your brawlers aren't already used to being overshadowed by the Cleric and Druid? As far as damage dealing goes, the Warblade (the most offensively-oriented ToB class) falls slightly behind the Barbarian (the most offensively-oriented PHB melee class) in raw damage dealing, except for a few sweet spots where the Warblade picks up a new level of maneuvers and the Barbarian doesn't get a new iterative attack or a rage enhancement. The primary thing that the Martial Adept classes do is give melee characters things to do besides full attack - full attack - full attack. The fighter and monk were already the two weakest classes in the PHB and should be well used to being outmatched after level 3 or so.
The_Wild_King 10-26-07, 08:21 PM	Salla got it right, the main thing that ToB gives melee guys is variety and more flavor
Salla 10-26-07, 09:46 PM	Salla got it right, the main thing that ToB gives melee guys is variety and more flavor Credit where credit is due, I'm mostly parrotting Tempest Stormwind. :)
Artifact 10-27-07, 01:37 AM	I can’t seem to get multi-quote to work, so I just copy/pasted the quotes into Word and worked from there :): Quote by Salla: Your brawlers aren't already used to being overshadowed by the Cleric and Druid? As far as damage dealing goes, the Warblade (the most offensively-oriented ToB class) falls slightly behind the Barbarian (the most offensively-oriented PHB melee class) in raw damage dealing, except for a few sweet spots where the Warblade picks up a new level of maneuvers and the Barbarian doesn't get a new iterative attack or a rage enhancement. The primary thing that the Martial Adept classes do is give melee characters things to do besides full attack - full attack - full attack. The fighter and monk were already the two weakest classes in the PHB and should be well used to being outmatched after level 3 or so. That's what I'm concerned about, more or less. To me, it seems too easy for the fighter to be shown up (if not out-matched) by martial adepts. Its not too much a problem that the fighter is full attack- full attack, ad infinitum until something or somebody drops dead; that is until you bring in something like the Sublime Way; then, its "Hey, I want some of that action!" ;). As The Wild King puts it: “ToB gives melee guys is variety and more flavor”, and I agree, that’s good. I just want to be careful not to "lose touch" with the brawlers in my games, and that seems likely if they come across as less interesting to the players. But Grumman has helped me find a probable solution. Quote by Grumman: If you're worried about overshadowing the brawlers, perhaps you should try not using the classes from the book, and letting NPCs and PCs alike gain the maneuvers and stances by picking the martial feats. That way you can introduce the martial techniques in a way that puts the NPCs on an even footing with existing fighter-types. I’ve only had the book for a couple of days, and between work and family, I’ve had very little time to dig in yet. I just noticed the Martial Study feat. That might be one way I could give the brawlers a taste of the Sublime (so to speak ;)). Thanks! Quote by Jarsallen: There's a thread that touches on this over in the "What's a player to do" board. It's titled 'All classes not created equal' or something like that, and it has some insights into the ups and downs of just tossing ToB stuff into your game. I’ll have to check that out, thanks ;)! I know there are threads out there on this topic but I’m not sure where to start looking. Thanks to everyone for sharing your thoughts. I’ll enjoy the book for sure, I just wanna make sure my player’s get the same enjoyment out of it. :) --Art P.S. What IS up with multi-quote anyway? Its a glitch no doubt, but does anyone know if its being worked? Kinda annoying, so I thought I'd bring it up.