boredom and hitpoint theory [Archive] - Wizards Community

boredom and hitpoint theory [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lina_Inverse
08-09-05, 04:07 PM ive finally figured out a way to get people to shut up about hitpoints.lets take what we know about life,healing and such in D&D.
1)all life is made of positive energy
2)positive energy heals
3)higher level charecters need more healing
4)levels to an extent represent accumulated lifefroce.this is why you burn xp on magic items and why negative levels are caused by negative energy.

so what can we say.how about.hitpoints represent a living beings accumulated positive energy.you stab someone and they should die,but the positive energy immediatly goes to work fixing the damage,so untill they run out of positive energy they wont die.thats how cure spells work,they refill the bodys positive energy.natural healing is just a body naturally refilling its stores of energy.
Zuhan
08-10-05, 07:52 PM Yeah, OK.

I don't hear too many people ranting about Hp. The whole combat system is unashamedly abstract.

This is the way D&D is.
alandark
08-10-05, 09:21 PM I like what you said. The way I view it is that HP are a measure of how far away from dying you are. A Lvl20 Barbarian with 211 HPs is much farther from dying than a level 1 Wizard with 2 HP (max - he got boned on con). I don't think even Homer could argue with that.

So all the extra healing it takes is required because it puts you that much farther from dying. Or you can stop at 2 HPs and be happy. :D
VirgilCaine
08-10-05, 11:46 PM I don't think even Homer could argue with that.

:confused:
Homer was a poet...? Not a philosopher...? I think you mean Aristotle?
Lina_Inverse
08-11-05, 12:18 AM Yeah, OK.

I don't hear too many people ranting about Hp. The whole combat system is unashamedly abstract.

This is the way D&D is.

A)i was bored.
B)people do
C)the pendulam will swing again and hitpoint rants will be in vogue.
questionc
08-11-05, 12:21 AM Let's face it, you're never really going to make cures make sense without rewriting the system.

...
PS, make falling and fatigue subdual cause ability point damage instead of regular damage, it works!
:)

:confused:
Homer was a poet...? Not a philosopher...? I think you mean Aristotle?

I thought he meant America's favorite dad...
weasel fierce
08-11-05, 12:54 AM Hit points is why Conan didnt get cacked.
Orayn, Elvish Blademaster
08-11-05, 10:52 AM 5) VP/WP makes more sense, is a better system overall, and should be in 4E if such a beast ever sees the light of day. :D
Nomad4life
08-11-05, 12:48 PM 5) VP/WP makes more sense, is a better system overall, and should be in 4E if such a beast ever sees the light of day. :D

As much as I like the WP/VP system, I think that the True 20/Blue Rose system is even better- The same damage save mechanics used in Mutants & Masterminds.

I could never go back to using hit points again.
weasel fierce
08-11-05, 01:17 PM Hit point systems can work fine, if they do not increase much during play.
Starship troopers f.x. only gives 1-3 hit points per level gained, meaning that heroes are a bit tougher, but not unbelievably so.

The system in Blue Rose works great though
Orayn, Elvish Blademaster
08-11-05, 01:39 PM Unless the Blue Rose system is super locked down with copyrights, could someone give me a synopsis of it?
Nomad4life
08-11-05, 01:59 PM Unless the Blue Rose system is super locked down with copyrights, could someone give me a synopsis of it?

Basically, instead of keeping up with hit points, the character has a damage save. When damage is dealt, the players rolls his/her toughness to lessen the effect. The degree to which the save fails determines the damage effect- stunned, wounded, unconscious, dead, staggered, etc… Each condition has a specific effect on the character until they get healed. Of course, if the save succeds, the damage wasn’t serous enough to impact their performance. Armor is applied to the character’s toughness save, as opposed to increasing AC, which instead progresses based on level.

The result is an easier, faster, more realistic and awesomely dramatic combat system. However, the system is not for everyone; even the highest level barbarian can be killed by a lowly goblin through bad luck. Every roll of every encounter could potentially be quite lethal. Some might not like that, although I love it.

EDIT: The armor-as-toughness-save rules only apply to True 20, not BR.
weasel fierce
08-12-05, 12:28 AM Blue Rose is one D20 game that I could really enjoy if I could find anyone that would want to play it.
anarco_rata
08-12-05, 12:57 AM I don't hear too many people ranting about Hp. The whole combat system is unashamedly abstract.
Actually, Hp is the only thing i dislike about dnd, i even accept the inbalance in the classes, so do my players, but is really hard to keep it reallistic when a normal human receives a crossbow hit in the head and survives it. If you're a level 20 human barbarian, you can resist at least 150 spears in your body. Usually, you say: the sword barely scratched you (even when it took 12 hp, for instance) but is a little unrealistic to have al sword scratching you and eventually DIE from the scratches.
Ringmereth
08-12-05, 03:37 PM Actually, Hp is the only thing i dislike about dnd, i even accept the inbalance in the classes, so do my players, but is really hard to keep it reallistic when a normal human receives a crossbow hit in the head and survives it. If you're a level 20 human barbarian, you can resist at least 150 spears in your body. Usually, you say: the sword barely scratched you (even when it took 12 hp, for instance) but is a little unrealistic to have al sword scratching you and eventually DIE from the scratches.

HP sorta assumes you play as if you had VP/WP, even if you don't make a mechanical distinction. If you've got a 100 HP fighter, the first 50 points are the little scratches, bruises, and near-misses. The next 30 are deeper scratches, nastier bruises, and flesh wounds; stuff that, in RL, would hurt a lot but not impair your performance too much. The last 20 are nasty, painful, life-threatening injuries-a stab to the torso, a slash on the arm that cuts to the bone, or a dead-on blunt impact that lifts you off your feet and cracks ribs. If you don't describe it like this, you basically have to acknowledge that it's all abstract, and your character can just take dozens of sword-slashes and keep going; something that breaks the realism quite a bit for me.

Personally, I prefer WP/VP rules. If someone hits that same fighter for 30 points of VP damage, then he just barely evaded a series of heavy swings and ended up faceplanting as he dives away, or something like that. A fighter down to his WP, instead of being covered in little wounds, is just dirty, panting, and a bit bruised. Also, it accounts for the fact that when something connects hard with your body, it slows you down a bit.

While I haven't played BR or True 20, they also sound like excellent and more realistic systems; however, they seem a little more lethal than WP/VP.
Lina_Inverse
08-12-05, 03:51 PM While I haven't played BR or True 20, they also sound like excellent and more realistic systems; however, they seem a little more lethal than WP/VP.

actully heres the funny thing.damage saves arent realistic at all.every hit is either ignored completely or somewhat damageing or instant death.there is no whittling down theres just falling down.

further is how weird it is,the offcial damage save system is 10+dmg/5 equals the fort save(did i mention everyone now either has high or low hp?) so lava is ONLY DC 20....lets not get into the fort saves of alot of monsters and how hard it is to make them fail by 5 or more.
Nomad4life
08-12-05, 09:23 PM actully heres the funny thing.damage saves arent realistic at all.every hit is either ignored completely or somewhat damageing or instant death.there is no whittling down theres just falling down.

further is how weird it is,the offcial damage save system is 10+dmg/5 equals the fort save(did i mention everyone now either has high or low hp?) so lava is ONLY DC 20....lets not get into the fort saves of alot of monsters and how hard it is to make them fail by 5 or more.

…. Huh!?!?!

You’ve never actually seen Blue Rose, or True 20, have you. It shows.

EDIT: Oh! Unless you’re referring to the damage-save “patch” in U.A., which isn’t the same thing at all. In the actual system the damage save is seperate from the fort save. There also most certainly is "whittling down"- As your character becomes repeatedly bruised and hurt, multiple penalties to the damage save accumulate.
weasel fierce
08-13-05, 01:28 AM Funny thing is.. in real life, most hits ARE either nonconsequential, or they will mess you up, and take you down.

Go figure.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lina_Inverse 08-09-05, 04:07 PM	ive finally figured out a way to get people to shut up about hitpoints.lets take what we know about life,healing and such in D&D. 1)all life is made of positive energy 2)positive energy heals 3)higher level charecters need more healing 4)levels to an extent represent accumulated lifefroce.this is why you burn xp on magic items and why negative levels are caused by negative energy. so what can we say.how about.hitpoints represent a living beings accumulated positive energy.you stab someone and they should die,but the positive energy immediatly goes to work fixing the damage,so untill they run out of positive energy they wont die.thats how cure spells work,they refill the bodys positive energy.natural healing is just a body naturally refilling its stores of energy.
Zuhan 08-10-05, 07:52 PM	Yeah, OK. I don't hear too many people ranting about Hp. The whole combat system is unashamedly abstract. This is the way D&D is.
alandark 08-10-05, 09:21 PM	I like what you said. The way I view it is that HP are a measure of how far away from dying you are. A Lvl20 Barbarian with 211 HPs is much farther from dying than a level 1 Wizard with 2 HP (max - he got boned on con). I don't think even Homer could argue with that. So all the extra healing it takes is required because it puts you that much farther from dying. Or you can stop at 2 HPs and be happy. :D
VirgilCaine 08-10-05, 11:46 PM	I don't think even Homer could argue with that. :confused: Homer was a poet...? Not a philosopher...? I think you mean Aristotle?
Lina_Inverse 08-11-05, 12:18 AM	Yeah, OK. I don't hear too many people ranting about Hp. The whole combat system is unashamedly abstract. This is the way D&D is. A)i was bored. B)people do C)the pendulam will swing again and hitpoint rants will be in vogue.
questionc 08-11-05, 12:21 AM	Let's face it, you're never really going to make cures make sense without rewriting the system. ... PS, make falling and fatigue subdual cause ability point damage instead of regular damage, it works! :) :confused: Homer was a poet...? Not a philosopher...? I think you mean Aristotle? I thought he meant America's favorite dad...
weasel fierce 08-11-05, 12:54 AM	Hit points is why Conan didnt get cacked.
Orayn, Elvish Blademaster 08-11-05, 10:52 AM	5) VP/WP makes more sense, is a better system overall, and should be in 4E if such a beast ever sees the light of day. :D
Nomad4life 08-11-05, 12:48 PM	5) VP/WP makes more sense, is a better system overall, and should be in 4E if such a beast ever sees the light of day. :D As much as I like the WP/VP system, I think that the True 20/Blue Rose system is even better- The same damage save mechanics used in Mutants & Masterminds. I could never go back to using hit points again.
weasel fierce 08-11-05, 01:17 PM	Hit point systems can work fine, if they do not increase much during play. Starship troopers f.x. only gives 1-3 hit points per level gained, meaning that heroes are a bit tougher, but not unbelievably so. The system in Blue Rose works great though
Orayn, Elvish Blademaster 08-11-05, 01:39 PM	Unless the Blue Rose system is super locked down with copyrights, could someone give me a synopsis of it?
Nomad4life 08-11-05, 01:59 PM	Unless the Blue Rose system is super locked down with copyrights, could someone give me a synopsis of it? Basically, instead of keeping up with hit points, the character has a damage save. When damage is dealt, the players rolls his/her toughness to lessen the effect. The degree to which the save fails determines the damage effect- stunned, wounded, unconscious, dead, staggered, etc… Each condition has a specific effect on the character until they get healed. Of course, if the save succeds, the damage wasn’t serous enough to impact their performance. Armor is applied to the character’s toughness save, as opposed to increasing AC, which instead progresses based on level. The result is an easier, faster, more realistic and awesomely dramatic combat system. However, the system is not for everyone; even the highest level barbarian can be killed by a lowly goblin through bad luck. Every roll of every encounter could potentially be quite lethal. Some might not like that, although I love it. EDIT: The armor-as-toughness-save rules only apply to True 20, not BR.
weasel fierce 08-12-05, 12:28 AM	Blue Rose is one D20 game that I could really enjoy if I could find anyone that would want to play it.
anarco_rata 08-12-05, 12:57 AM	I don't hear too many people ranting about Hp. The whole combat system is unashamedly abstract. Actually, Hp is the only thing i dislike about dnd, i even accept the inbalance in the classes, so do my players, but is really hard to keep it reallistic when a normal human receives a crossbow hit in the head and survives it. If you're a level 20 human barbarian, you can resist at least 150 spears in your body. Usually, you say: the sword barely scratched you (even when it took 12 hp, for instance) but is a little unrealistic to have al sword scratching you and eventually DIE from the scratches.
Ringmereth 08-12-05, 03:37 PM	Actually, Hp is the only thing i dislike about dnd, i even accept the inbalance in the classes, so do my players, but is really hard to keep it reallistic when a normal human receives a crossbow hit in the head and survives it. If you're a level 20 human barbarian, you can resist at least 150 spears in your body. Usually, you say: the sword barely scratched you (even when it took 12 hp, for instance) but is a little unrealistic to have al sword scratching you and eventually DIE from the scratches. HP sorta assumes you play as if you had VP/WP, even if you don't make a mechanical distinction. If you've got a 100 HP fighter, the first 50 points are the little scratches, bruises, and near-misses. The next 30 are deeper scratches, nastier bruises, and flesh wounds; stuff that, in RL, would hurt a lot but not impair your performance too much. The last 20 are nasty, painful, life-threatening injuries-a stab to the torso, a slash on the arm that cuts to the bone, or a dead-on blunt impact that lifts you off your feet and cracks ribs. If you don't describe it like this, you basically have to acknowledge that it's all abstract, and your character can just take dozens of sword-slashes and keep going; something that breaks the realism quite a bit for me. Personally, I prefer WP/VP rules. If someone hits that same fighter for 30 points of VP damage, then he just barely evaded a series of heavy swings and ended up faceplanting as he dives away, or something like that. A fighter down to his WP, instead of being covered in little wounds, is just dirty, panting, and a bit bruised. Also, it accounts for the fact that when something connects hard with your body, it slows you down a bit. While I haven't played BR or True 20, they also sound like excellent and more realistic systems; however, they seem a little more lethal than WP/VP.
Lina_Inverse 08-12-05, 03:51 PM	While I haven't played BR or True 20, they also sound like excellent and more realistic systems; however, they seem a little more lethal than WP/VP. actully heres the funny thing.damage saves arent realistic at all.every hit is either ignored completely or somewhat damageing or instant death.there is no whittling down theres just falling down. further is how weird it is,the offcial damage save system is 10+dmg/5 equals the fort save(did i mention everyone now either has high or low hp?) so lava is ONLY DC 20....lets not get into the fort saves of alot of monsters and how hard it is to make them fail by 5 or more.
Nomad4life 08-12-05, 09:23 PM	actully heres the funny thing.damage saves arent realistic at all.every hit is either ignored completely or somewhat damageing or instant death.there is no whittling down theres just falling down. further is how weird it is,the offcial damage save system is 10+dmg/5 equals the fort save(did i mention everyone now either has high or low hp?) so lava is ONLY DC 20....lets not get into the fort saves of alot of monsters and how hard it is to make them fail by 5 or more. …. Huh!?!?! You’ve never actually seen Blue Rose, or True 20, have you. It shows. EDIT: Oh! Unless you’re referring to the damage-save “patch” in U.A., which isn’t the same thing at all. In the actual system the damage save is seperate from the fort save. There also most certainly is "whittling down"- As your character becomes repeatedly bruised and hurt, multiple penalties to the damage save accumulate.
weasel fierce 08-13-05, 01:28 AM	Funny thing is.. in real life, most hits ARE either nonconsequential, or they will mess you up, and take you down. Go figure.