Brave Wizards and Cowardly Barbarians [Archive] - Wizards Community

Brave Wizards and Cowardly Barbarians [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ashal_Jadon
11-02-03, 03:21 PM Last night ran into an undead with frightful appearance will save 17. A 5th level barbarian half-fiend failed, no contest. The 9th level wizard made it easily and every time that encounter. This makes NO sense to me, fear save should be changed to a fortitude save. Any fighter type should have a better save verses fear than anyones else (PC class wise).

Is there a way I can get this noticed by the powers that be so ask why this was ruled in this manner?

Yes I understand rule zero and house rules. I think if it's really broken it should be fixed with errata not rule zero.
UberBanshee
11-02-03, 03:48 PM I agree with the original rules in this case. It is a matter of willpower, and barbarians just aren't the most willful characters. Also, who is going to be more afraid: The wizard who fights from a distance and has knowledge and understanding of the magics that make undead, or the barbarian who has no idea what he is confronting and has to go toe-to-toe against it anyway? The rules make sense. Remember, bravery isn't a requirement to be a warrior, its an added bonus if you have it. If the Barbarian had a higher Wisdom (which would account for higher bravery and stalwartness), he might be able to weather such an assault on the senses. Furthermore, I think the reason that your Barbarian there fled is because he rolled poorly. This happens from time to time.

Well, these are just my thoughts, I don't know about anyone else.
Xaxor
11-02-03, 04:06 PM *nod* Has to do a lot with a magic-users ability to focus as well. They know about tricks of the mind and can just put them out of the way. Also, the more perceptive you are, all wizards have to be due to the intracacies (sp) of magic, the less random occurences will jump out and spook you. Ever saw something that made you jump but upon further observation it was something silly? Wizards and other magic users often see it for what it is because of their mental focus.
Seeker95
11-02-03, 05:30 PM Magical fear? Watch the barbarian run away and the wizard scoff.

Real fear? Watch the barbarian draw his greatsword and the wizard run.

If it requires a saving throw, it is magical will not roleplaying reason.
mad mac
11-02-03, 06:54 PM Also, don't forget that the Barbarian does have an outlet for beating back magical fear and insidius attempts at mind control.....he gets mad.:D

At low levels, the Barbarians +2 bonus to will-saves from rage will mostly mitigate the Wizards advantage here, since neither class is likely to favor Wisdom much.(and the barbarian is the most likely of the two to have a higher wisdom from what I've seen) At higher levels, Barbarians get the awesome(ah I forget the name) ability, which gives them a flat stackable +6 will save bonus when raging. By 20th level, That same barbarian can simply rage in order to push his will save from +6 to +16. At this point, he's actually better at making will saves than the average skinny mage type. Or to put it another way, just give it time. Rookie barbarians might get scared from time to time, but a truly battle-hardened beserker fears nothing!
SputnikCorp
11-02-03, 07:15 PM that's what happens when we leave fate to a die roll. no matter what bonuses are in your favour, your bound to fail. and when that fails we blame how unrealistic the game is. accept it.
Count Arioch the 28th
11-02-03, 09:23 PM Seeker has it about right in this thread, I think.

Magical fear affects your mind directly, regardless of your physical might. the Barbarian might be very brave in the face of etreme terror, but he's vulnerable to things that affect his mind directly.

And, also like seeker said, if some big demon dude draws his unholy longsword and claims to steal the Pc's souls, the Wizard SHOULD be scared to death, whereas the barbarian stands firm, because the wizard is frail, and the barbarian is mighty.

Generally, things that are powerful in melee have poor will saves, except for the Samurai.
Scarlet Knight
11-02-03, 09:28 PM I never liked fear effects in any of the editions of D&D.

If it's a role-playing game, shouldn't whether the character runs away or stands his ground be up to the player?

I'd like to see fear spells and powers go away... they really make the game less fun.
Count Arioch the 28th
11-02-03, 09:29 PM How about a spell effect that makes you run away from the spellcaster as fast as they can, and doesn't make you fearful? :smirk:
incarnadine
11-03-03, 10:36 AM does it help if the barbarian is superstitious?
that's a reasonable explanation right? sure a giant is fine but your aunt Burtha rising from the grave... that's just not right. You can get seriously cursed fighting undead and that's worse then getting your arms ripped off.... well at least to an uneducated half orc.
aldymnor
11-03-03, 10:45 AM A wizard is intimately familiar with magic, magical constructs, undead and the paranormal. He knows enough about it to have rational fears.

The barbarian does not. his fears are wild and totally based on what he sees, not what he knows.

It's my instinct that you're probably going to try to argue with me on this, but seriously just consider the stark possibility that someone else figured it out, and the system actually does work.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ashal_Jadon 11-02-03, 03:21 PM	Last night ran into an undead with frightful appearance will save 17. A 5th level barbarian half-fiend failed, no contest. The 9th level wizard made it easily and every time that encounter. This makes NO sense to me, fear save should be changed to a fortitude save. Any fighter type should have a better save verses fear than anyones else (PC class wise). Is there a way I can get this noticed by the powers that be so ask why this was ruled in this manner? Yes I understand rule zero and house rules. I think if it's really broken it should be fixed with errata not rule zero.
UberBanshee 11-02-03, 03:48 PM	I agree with the original rules in this case. It is a matter of willpower, and barbarians just aren't the most willful characters. Also, who is going to be more afraid: The wizard who fights from a distance and has knowledge and understanding of the magics that make undead, or the barbarian who has no idea what he is confronting and has to go toe-to-toe against it anyway? The rules make sense. Remember, bravery isn't a requirement to be a warrior, its an added bonus if you have it. If the Barbarian had a higher Wisdom (which would account for higher bravery and stalwartness), he might be able to weather such an assault on the senses. Furthermore, I think the reason that your Barbarian there fled is because he rolled poorly. This happens from time to time. Well, these are just my thoughts, I don't know about anyone else.
Xaxor 11-02-03, 04:06 PM	nod Has to do a lot with a magic-users ability to focus as well. They know about tricks of the mind and can just put them out of the way. Also, the more perceptive you are, all wizards have to be due to the intracacies (sp) of magic, the less random occurences will jump out and spook you. Ever saw something that made you jump but upon further observation it was something silly? Wizards and other magic users often see it for what it is because of their mental focus.
Seeker95 11-02-03, 05:30 PM	Magical fear? Watch the barbarian run away and the wizard scoff. Real fear? Watch the barbarian draw his greatsword and the wizard run. If it requires a saving throw, it is magical will not roleplaying reason.
mad mac 11-02-03, 06:54 PM	Also, don't forget that the Barbarian does have an outlet for beating back magical fear and insidius attempts at mind control.....he gets mad.:D At low levels, the Barbarians +2 bonus to will-saves from rage will mostly mitigate the Wizards advantage here, since neither class is likely to favor Wisdom much.(and the barbarian is the most likely of the two to have a higher wisdom from what I've seen) At higher levels, Barbarians get the awesome(ah I forget the name) ability, which gives them a flat stackable +6 will save bonus when raging. By 20th level, That same barbarian can simply rage in order to push his will save from +6 to +16. At this point, he's actually better at making will saves than the average skinny mage type. Or to put it another way, just give it time. Rookie barbarians might get scared from time to time, but a truly battle-hardened beserker fears nothing!
SputnikCorp 11-02-03, 07:15 PM	that's what happens when we leave fate to a die roll. no matter what bonuses are in your favour, your bound to fail. and when that fails we blame how unrealistic the game is. accept it.
Count Arioch the 28th 11-02-03, 09:23 PM	Seeker has it about right in this thread, I think. Magical fear affects your mind directly, regardless of your physical might. the Barbarian might be very brave in the face of etreme terror, but he's vulnerable to things that affect his mind directly. And, also like seeker said, if some big demon dude draws his unholy longsword and claims to steal the Pc's souls, the Wizard SHOULD be scared to death, whereas the barbarian stands firm, because the wizard is frail, and the barbarian is mighty. Generally, things that are powerful in melee have poor will saves, except for the Samurai.
Scarlet Knight 11-02-03, 09:28 PM	I never liked fear effects in any of the editions of D&D. If it's a role-playing game, shouldn't whether the character runs away or stands his ground be up to the player? I'd like to see fear spells and powers go away... they really make the game less fun.
Count Arioch the 28th 11-02-03, 09:29 PM	How about a spell effect that makes you run away from the spellcaster as fast as they can, and doesn't make you fearful? :smirk:
incarnadine 11-03-03, 10:36 AM	does it help if the barbarian is superstitious? that's a reasonable explanation right? sure a giant is fine but your aunt Burtha rising from the grave... that's just not right. You can get seriously cursed fighting undead and that's worse then getting your arms ripped off.... well at least to an uneducated half orc.
aldymnor 11-03-03, 10:45 AM	A wizard is intimately familiar with magic, magical constructs, undead and the paranormal. He knows enough about it to have rational fears. The barbarian does not. his fears are wild and totally based on what he sees, not what he knows. It's my instinct that you're probably going to try to argue with me on this, but seriously just consider the stark possibility that someone else figured it out, and the system actually does work.