Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xenu 08-16-04, 05:43 PM	I'm pondering making a character that will need to break petrification quite often without harming the target. Technically it would be enough to have someone in the group with this ability, but the character concept demands that she either possess a way to do this herself, or have questing for such a ability as one of heir top priorities. When she caps out at the equivalent of level 20, she'll have ten levels of Paladin as her only spellcasting class. "Break enchantment" is level 16 even for paladins with extreme charisma modifiers. :( Thus, I need a alternative. Are there any magical items with "Break petrification"? What would it take to create one? ("Stone to flesh" will not do, since it have a risk of killing the target.) Are there any feats that break petrification? That would be ideal. I have seen similar feats that let a cleric or paladin transform a turning into a beneficial effect. Any other options?
Escef 08-16-04, 06:32 PM	Petrification is a pretty powerful ability, allowing it to be counteracted with a mere feat (and possibly a turning attempt) is too easy. There was an oil in 3.0 that undid petrification, but a quick check of the 3.5 DMG reveals its abscence (or my blindness, one of the two). I'd suggest a feat that allows a Paladin to burn two of his Cure Disease into a single Reverse Petrification.
Xenu 08-16-04, 08:41 PM	Hmm. A level 9 cleric can un-petrify once per day. Twice if he have 20 wisdom. A level 14 paladin can un-petrify once per day if he have 18 wisdom. At 15 he can un-petrify once per day with 14 wisdom, twice with 18. A feat that let a level 9 paladin un.petrify once per week (and only if he havn't cured any diseases during the last week) doesn't seem worth it at all. Converting Lay on hands would be more acceptable. In any case, my question is if there are any existing feats or magic items that fill this function. Existing in any published book, that is.
Escef 08-16-04, 10:30 PM	Well, I gave you the most balanced reply I could think of this fast and without playtesting. All said, you have a feat that lets a Paladin convert 2 uses of a rarely (IMX) power for a stronger, about as rarely used power. If that is what the campaign needs, then it's damn good. As for comparing it to spellcasting ability, look at what many divine feats do with the infrequently used ability to turn undead. I'd rather trade the ability to turn for some of those divine feats usable 3+cha mod times per day, instead of burning a feat. Besides, how many Paladins do you see with 18 Wisdom? Paladin is a stat hungry class, Str, Con, and Cha all have higher priorities than Wis, which neededn't be higher than 14 to get access to all Paladin spells.
airhead 08-17-04, 10:01 AM	Lets see, you want a relativly low level PC to be able to do someting that other PC's have to wait until at least level 9 to do? I would say be a cleric, quest for 9 levels and there you go.
Xenu 08-17-04, 12:54 PM	No, I want a Paladin of the race Medusa to get a way to un-petrify before she reach her 24:th Effective Character Level. In other words, I want her to be able to undo her petrifications without being a epic character. But being a medusa takes 10 levels, and Paladins doesn't get break enchantment until level 14.
airhead 08-17-04, 01:24 PM	Oh, you'll be welcome in most parties and in most towns too. Medusa couldn't undo her petrification.
Escef 08-17-04, 04:22 PM	Among Medusae un-petrification was the role of the male Maedar (think I spelled it right) back in 2e. If your character is so concerned about turning folk to stone then I recommend some sort of veil or goggles. Further, the difficulty of dealing with the petrifying gaze is most likely the reason why most Medusae are evil, they get so sick of turning every creature and non-medusa person they see to stone that they just figure that they can't go through life blaming themselves for something they were born with. And just say, "Screw it, if you get turned to stone, it's your own fault." You took the race, now live with the choice. If the only solution is something you can use rarely then you had better make sure that there are no accidents. Or invest in a magic item that neutralizes the ability. I believe that somewhere out there (in the FRCS or Magic of Faerun, I believe) is a magical blindfold that grants the wearer blindsight out to 60 feet (or it could have been 30 feet, I don't remember).
Addi83 08-17-04, 05:15 PM	You could simply use a weaker version of petrify, for example one that was dispelled if the victim was submerged in water. (would require a spellcraft or knowledge arcana to recognize the spell as a lesser version though)
Xenu 08-18-04, 05:07 AM	>>"Further, the difficulty of dealing with the petrifying gaze is most likely the reason why most Medusae are evil," Aye, that is certainly one of the main reasons. The other reasons are unknown for the generic setting, but I primarily intend to play this character in the Scarred Lands. In this world, all races were created by the titans, and the gods were the offspring of the titans. However, the titans was primordial evil from a mortal perspective. They created for their own amusement, and annihalated their creations whenever they got bored with them. Eventually, the gods rebelled. The humans, the elves and the dwarves (and maybe a few other races) was with the rebellion from the start, but others joined later. The Medusa race became divided. Many of them remained loyal to their creator, the titan Mormo. Others was persuaded by the goddess Belsameth to join the good side. Belsameth was the daughter of Mormo (and Mesos) and thus had a heritage claim over Mormo's creation. Thus, these days most Medusas are either Belsamethists or Mormoites. There is one main god/godess for each alignment. Belsameth is the Neutral Evil one. However, Belsameth have a twin sister, who share her right to the legacy of Mormo. This is Madriel, first angel of mercy. Neutral Good sun godess. The Medusas share the same connection of creation with her as they do with Belsameth. >>"they get so sick of turning every creature and non-medusa person they see to stone" Ehr, no. Only everyone they lose their temper at or in some cases gets frightened at. But that's certainly bad enough! They don't turn everyone who see them to stone. If they did, then all those solitary medusas who live in the wilderness and hunt with bows would most likely starve to death. And those who live in cities as rogues would be detected right away. Not very subtle. And the challenge rating of 7 would be a total undercon. Finally, a medusa participating in a war could defeat a army by herself. Just come forth to make a anouncement, and then take off your helmet. This is was SRD says on the subject: "A creature with a gaze attack can actively attempt to use its gaze as an attack action. The creature simply chooses a target within range, and that opponent must attempt a saving throw. If the target has chosen to defend against the gaze as discussed above, the opponent gets a chance to avoid the saving throw (either 50% chance for averting eyes or 100% chance for shutting eyes). It is possible for an opponent to save against a creature’s gaze twice during the same round, once before its own action and once during the creature’s action." http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/abilitiesAndConditions.html The Nymph, howwever, have the power to blind or kill everyone who look directly at her. These are NOT gaze attacks. They affect everyone, not just a selected target. Anyway, with standard abilities and spells, a medusa must be a level 9 cleric or wizard (and thus have a effective character level of 19) to break her own petrifications. For a PC character this doesn't matter much, as long as there is a wizard or a cleric in the group - and many groups have one of each. It's still a huge problem on the society level, however. I want my character to have a way to unpetrify so she won't have to annoy the cleric or wizard with it, but enen if she find one that works for her as a paladin she will still search for easier methods for her fellow medusas to use.
The WarOverlord 08-18-04, 08:46 AM	Originally posted by Xenu I'm pondering making a character that will need to break petrification quite often without harming the target. Technically it would be enough to have someone in the group with this ability, but the character concept demands that she either possess a way to do this herself, or have questing for such a ability as one of heir top priorities. When she caps out at the equivalent of level 20, she'll have ten levels of Paladin as her only spellcasting class. "Break enchantment" is level 16 even for paladins with extreme charisma modifiers. :( Thus, I need a alternative. Are there any magical items with "Break petrification"? What would it take to create one? ("Stone to flesh" will not do, since it have a risk of killing the target.) Are there any feats that break petrification? That would be ideal. I have seen similar feats that let a cleric or paladin transform a turning into a beneficial effect. Any other options? Maybe your character knows how to make a Herbalist's or Alchemist's salve/balm that counteracts what is basically flesh being "calcified" and moisture being sucked out and the cells going into a kind of "stasis" :angel:
Grizelda 08-18-04, 01:19 PM	Originally posted by Escef Among Medusae un-petrification was the role of the male Maedar (think I spelled it right) back in 2e. If your character is so concerned about turning folk to stone then I recommend some sort of veil or goggles. Further, the difficulty of dealing with the petrifying gaze is most likely the reason why most Medusae are evil, they get so sick of turning every creature and non-medusa person they see to stone that they just figure that they can't go through life blaming themselves for something they were born with. And just say, "Screw it, if you get turned to stone, it's your own fault." You took the race, now live with the choice. If the only solution is something you can use rarely then you had better make sure that there are no accidents. Or invest in a magic item that neutralizes the ability. I believe that somewhere out there (in the FRCS or Magic of Faerun, I believe) is a magical blindfold that grants the wearer blindsight out to 60 feet (or it could have been 30 feet, I don't remember). better yet drop the whole twinkie factory medusa idea and just buy the character a really cool jesters cap that looks like snake heads.. you could even have then enchanted to move :)
Xenu 08-18-04, 02:19 PM	A Jester's cap would be kinda pointless. However, it could be a idea to drop all ability score bonuses and all special powers (lets say she's under a holy oath to never use petrification or poison, and this oath is so strong it have blocked the abilities althogether, and that she have a special handicapp that make her lack the darkvision) and play a regular paladin (without any creature multiclassing) who just happen to be of the race medusa. Such a character would still keep it's core appeal: A extremelt Lawful Good Heroic character that people automatically fears and loathes, to the point of panicing right away when seeing her. However, it would have much less flavor and general coolness then my original concept. While not being more likely to be accepted by DM and group. As for twinking, I don't think medusa paladins are more powerful then human paladins. Yes, the ability bonuses "rox0rz", if you're into that mentality, and the petrification attack is kinda cute. But we also have that pesky little level modifier that make the character lose out on four levels - menaing less hitpoints, less BAB, lower skills, one less feat and one less ability point, not to mention that it forever locks her out of the third and fourth paladin spell level. Add to that a HUGE social stigma, and skill ranks locked into a high disguise skill that her sense of honor prevents her from using as often as she should.
Negeta 08-18-04, 03:00 PM	You might want to think of a feat that uses turn uses to break the enchantment of only her gaze attack. If you want something that will unpetrify anyone, you're going to end up with a strong ability. Perhaps you could have a feat that would use 3 turn attempts, so you'd only be able to use it once or twice a day, that allows the petrified creature another roll at the gazes DC. If they succeed, then they'll break the enchantment. Otherwise, they remain petrified. Also, it wouldn't exactly be a free ride for a paladin, either, if she ended up petrifying a creature with a weak Fort save (only about a +1), and her gaze DC is over 22. That creature would never benefit from this effect, running the risk of conflicting with the medusa's code of conduct. Perhaps something like this: Unpetrifying Gaze Prerequisites: Ability to turn, good alignment (perhaps just make the feat exalted), Medusa or other creature with racial petrification. Effect: Spend 3 turn attempts for the day to allow for one target petrified by the user of this ability a chance to reroll the Fortitude save against the medusa's gaze attack. A failure has no other ill effects, but a success means the target is unpetrified. Negeta
Xenu 08-18-04, 04:01 PM	Limiting it to reversing petrifications made by the same type of petrification attack is a good idea. That is, a medusa would only be able to reverse petrifications made by medusas this way, while a wizard/cleric would only be able to reverse petrifications made by the same wizard spell that the character posess. The fort save might also be a good idea. As for the turning attempts, I think three turning attempts is too much, and I am no longer fond of using turning attempts at all. Healing feels much more logical. I think one hitpoint of healing ought to be enough, but if you want to limit it then you could set it at healing the character level or even character hitpoints points of damage to reverse the petrification.
Negeta 08-18-04, 04:28 PM	Originally posted by Xenu Limiting it to reversing petrifications made by the same type of petrification attack is a good idea. That is, a medusa would only be able to reverse petrifications made by medusas this way, while a wizard/cleric would only be able to reverse petrifications made by the same wizard spell that the character posess. The fort save might also be a good idea. As for the turning attempts, I think three turning attempts is too much, and I am no longer fond of using turning attempts at all. Healing feels much more logical. I think one hitpoint of healing ought to be enough, but if you want to limit it then you could set it at healing the character level or even character hitpoints points of damage to reverse the petrification. I didn't mean that medusas can only unpetrify those frozen by any medusa, but only by them personally. This would limit the power of the feat, I think. Perhaps the turning attempts should be lowered to one or two instead of three. A medusa paladin, with her racial +4 to Cha, will probably have about 5 turning attempts in a day. Removing petrification is a strong ability, and it should be limited to only a couple times a day at most. I think requiring the target to reroll the save would help to make the ability about as good as the target's Fortitude save. And I personally don't like using healing instead of turning attempts. In using a turning attempt, the medusa would focus positive energy in attempt to remove a magical effect that she placed. Healing doesn't seem like it'd be applied to a statue to make it better. Also, healing is much more abundant then turning attempts. A cleric could cast as many healing spells in a day as they have spells, pretty much. That would give far too many chances to unpetrify. Also, using turning would also allow it to be open to more classes. Clerics, Paladins, and some prestige classes would be able to benefit from the feat (if they also had petrifying gazes). Anyhow, that's my reasoning behind my choices. Negeta
Veton 08-18-04, 05:50 PM	Don't most creatures with gaze attacks have the ability to "turn them off"? So you could just have it off most of the time.
Negeta 08-18-04, 06:02 PM	Originally posted by Veton Don't most creatures with gaze attacks have the ability to "turn them off"? So you could just have it off most of the time. I don't believe that's what brought the issue into question. Unless otherwise noted, a creature with a gaze attack can turn it off and on at will. But imagine a lawful good paladin that wants to subdue a criminal quickly and safely. If this paladin was a medusa, she could turn him to stone, drag him to jail, and then turn him back to flesh. A lot of violence would be cut from the encounter, and justice could be served, and it's certainly easier then trying to down a villian with non-lethal damage. But the code of conduct could get in the way if the paladin has no way to turn the targets back into flesh. Negeta
Xenu 08-18-04, 07:24 PM	But imagine a lawful good paladin that wants to subdue a criminal quickly and safely. If this paladin was a medusa, she could turn him to stone, drag him to jail, and then turn him back to flesh. A lot of violence would be cut from the encounter, and justice could be served, and it's certainly easier then trying to down a villian with non-lethal damage. But the code of conduct could get in the way if the paladin has no way to turn the targets back into flesh. Negeta The code would be violated only if it was a criminal who it would be immoral to kill (killing a villian that you need to get information from is unpractical, not unethical), and only if there is noone else who can cast Break Enchantment. Most parties have a cleric or a wizard or both. And if you are in a city, surely there must be some cleric willing to help justice to be served. Isn't the temple of ST Cuthbert/Hedrara (depending on campaign world) where you'll take the criminal for interogation anyway? Being able to do the unpetrification yourself let you use "non-hostile petrification" more often and when you are on your own. It also let you use it on the party's wizard or cleric to save her from dying if he is dying from a poison or disease that you can't fix yourself, or if he is being mindcontrolled, AND there is noone else who can get her unpetrified. The main benefit of being able to do multiple safe unpetrifications yourself is that you can use petrification as a party trick. And that's the main reason why I want it for my character. Slithera isn't just cool in herself, she's cool about being a medusa. She enjoy turning people into stone, and sh'es not the least bit ashamed of it. Of course, for etichal reasons she only use it when necessary, except on consenting "victims". If people argue about it, she will calmly explain that turning people to stone is fun in a relaxed enviorment, and that it can be a great act of mercy in more dire situations. And if you're not okay with it, that's your problem. It's not she who am monsterous, it is you who are narrowminded. And who's the great heroic righteous paladin around here? In other words, a unpetrification ability hardly effect group balance at all. At least not if it only help against the same type of petrification, or, like you suggested, only against petrifications made by the same person. All it does is that it makes her less annoying to the other character with Break Enchantment, who might not want to have it memorized all the time just to satisfy her whims and order enforvement methods. The only potential downside I see is from a psychological perspective. There could beother players who feel that the petrification ability in itself is a bit too cool from the start, making their own characters seem less cool in comparision. If so, then the extra toying around with petrification might add insult to injury. The sollution is, of course, to check not only with the DM but also with the other players if this is a okey character to have in the group. Many DM:s and groups don't want creature characters in the first place, regardless of if they have any powers or not. Right now I'm creating this character only for fun. If she'll ever be played is a little bit beside the point. :)
Xenu 08-18-04, 07:43 PM	Originally posted by Negeta [B]I didn't mean that medusas can only unpetrify those frozen by any medusa, but only by them personally. This would limit the power of the feat, I think. Aye, I understand. I consider the practical difference to be very small, since incoming petrifications will usually come from wizards/sorcerors and maybe cocatrices. Medusas arn't all that common in most campaigns. The "only your own, not your own type" feel a bit illogical to me. Also, being able to clean up after other medusas do fit Slithera's character concept very well. Perhaps the turning attempts should be lowered to one or two instead of three. A medusa paladin, with her racial +4 to Cha, will probably have about 5 turning attempts in a day. Removing petrification is a strong ability, and it should be limited to only a couple times a day at most. Why? With my version, you can still un-petrify fewer times then you can petrify. The only difference is that when the big disease cloud sweeps in to kill everyone in the village and you turn everyone to stone to save them, it will take you a few days to get them all unpetrified afterwards rather then a few months. More times per day means less annoyment, not more actual power. Unless, of course, you use the unpetrification during combat to block another medusa's petrifications. However, this is easily solved. Either use your version, where you can only undo your own personal petrifications, or use my version (where you can undo other petrifications made in the same manner) but add a castingtime of five rounds or even five minutes. And I personally don't like using healing instead of turning attempts. In using a turning attempt, the medusa would focus positive energy in attempt to remove a magical effect that she placed. Healing doesn't seem like it'd be applied to a statue to make it better. You don't cast healing and you don't attempt to petrify. You lace a petrification attempt with healing energy (or lace haling energy with a petrification attempt, either perspective is equally good) and get a combined effect that is related to both of them. Also, using turning would also allow it to be open to more classes. Clerics, Paladins, and some prestige classes would be able to benefit from the feat (if they also had petrifying gazes). Are there prestige classes that can turn but cannot heal? Tell me more about them, please. As for the classes and prestige classes I know of, there is one core class (the Druid) that can heal but cannot turn, but no classes or prestige classes that can turn but cannot heal. Besides, do you think that Rebuke Undead should be possible to use to reverse petrifications? That seems plain wrong to me, and I don't want evil medusas to be barred from the feat.
DungeonMaster 08-18-04, 07:53 PM	Stone salve. 3rd edition DMG p.227. 4000 GP a pop but really is the lowest order way out unless you want to carry around a pile of scrolls.
Negeta 08-18-04, 08:21 PM	I was just offering my input. And yes, I wouldn't allow an evil medusa to unpetrify, which I put in the description of my proposed feat. Truthfully, I like the stone salve option a whole lot better then a feat to unpetrify. Stone to flesh may be risky, but it takes away from the petrifying ability if it's a simple thing to overcome. Perhaps a medusa paladin just shouldn't use her petrification ability unless it's against an evil creature with intent to possibly return it. Negeta
Endarire 08-19-04, 02:25 AM	Maybe you could get an item that casts Stone to Flesh once a day or so. -EE
Xenu 08-20-04, 05:30 AM	Originally posted by Negeta Another note: I looked up break enchantment, which is like dispel magic. Dispel magic mentions the ability to dispel spells and spell-like abilities. Break enchantment also works against spells and spell-like abilities. A medusa's gaze is a supernatural ability, and as mentioned in the Monster Manual, isn't subject to dispelling. This is partially evident since break enchantment requires a caster level of the spell or spell-like ability to be broken. Where does it state that supernatural abilities can't be broken? And "caster level" would be the level of the creature using the ability, regardless of if the creature use a spellike ability or a supernatural ability. As for balance, I think the feat is well balanced for a multiclass high lecel arcane caster and low level divine caster. Maybe even underpowered for a wizard, but quite good for a sorcerer. When it comes to medusas, it's not a matter of game balance. (If game balance is an issue, then playing a medusa AT ALL is the core of it.) No, it's a issue of what being a medusa is. Should all, some or almost none be able to reverse their own petrifications? My opinion is the middle road. I don't think medusas should get the ability automatically, but it should be in reach. Taking a feat and one class level of cleric or druid should be enough. Having to take 9 class levels of cleric, druid or wizard (wizard/sorceror being the ONLY option, if using your intepretation of break enchantment) is way too much. Especially since it kinda sucks to be a level 10 caster when you are level 20. Caster classes are not suitable for heavy multiclassing such as playing creatures. If only wizards can normally break medusa petrifications, then all the more reason why bedusas should have that power herself. A level 11 wizard can petrify AND break his own petrifications. And do a lot of other stuff. A level 10 medusa have only petrify, and she take four negative levels for having it, losing out on hitpoints, bab, one feat and one stat point. A higher level medusa character with all these penalties should at least be able to break her own petrifications.
Negeta 08-20-04, 09:56 AM	Originally posted by Xenu Where does it state that supernatural abilities can't be broken? And "caster level" would be the level of the creature using the ability, regardless of if the creature use a spellike ability or a supernatural ability. Oh, it's not that they can't be broken, but after looking over the descriptions of the two spells, it seems like supernatural abilities cannot be dispelled. It is stated in the MM that supernatural abilities cannot be dispelled. Dispel magic only dispels spells and spell-like abilities, and break enchantment just seems to be a stronger very of dispel magic. The way the descriptions read for 3.5, it doesn't sound like a person petrified by a medusa's gaze could be freed from a break enchantment spell.
Xenu 08-21-04, 07:39 AM	Ouch! I just found out that gaze attacks DO indeed affect EVERYONE. There's a feat in savage species to turn this off. I must say that I strongly disagree. A feat is a small price for turning it off, that's not the problem. Having that power AT ALL is the problem. Not only for PC creatures with gaze attacks, but also for NPC:s and encounters. One single medusa or similar creature could turn the tide of a war. Seriously, it makes me consider removing the petrification attempt requirement from the "reverse petrification" feat, letting all clerics, druids and paladins take it and use it as many times as they have healings. Even with this version of the feat it would be a terribly annoying task to unpetrify a hundred petrified persons.
Negeta 08-21-04, 10:11 AM	I've actually read that a medusa can "dim" her gaze, thus it's like she has the narrowed gaze feat for free. Now, if she has her gaze active during combat, then she may affect her allies.
Willie the Duck 08-21-04, 11:00 AM	I would say: get a wand of break enchantment. I know, wands only go up to 4th level spells. Still, pay the cost of 50 scrolls of break enchantment, and call it a wand. If your DM complains about this minor change in form (and virually no change in functionality), mention to him/her that they've already let you play a medusa.
Xenu 08-21-04, 04:53 PM	Aye. Playing a medusa at all is indeed the issue. Not if she should be able to unpetrify as well. And with the current rules, I would personally reccomend against allowing it. Medusas as per "Savage Species" are way over the top overpowered. Even without feats you are unstoppable against almost all encounters that are living beings who use eyes to see. You just need Narrowed Gaze for between the fights. When the fight comes, be the only frontline fighter for the first few rounds and Don't Look Back. Load up with Pervasive Gaze, Irresistable Gaze and "Ability Focus: Gaze" to be even more overpowered.
Willie the Duck 08-22-04, 02:27 AM	Now, to be fair, they are one-trick ponies. Ponies that, at the level they can be introduced, are fairly easy to guard against. Also note that playing one as a PC is even more limiting, because PCs run up against alot of non-living creatures and alot of high-fort-save creatures as compared to NPCs (which almost exclusively run up against the party, complete with bards, rogues, wizards, and sorcerers). If said medusa based party runs up against anything with a good hack value that doesn't fall to their ability, they are SOL. Like most supposedly "broken" monster builds, they are deadly, but fragile. of course that doesn't stop them from being one hell of a wrench in the works of a campaign.
Xenu 08-22-04, 04:58 AM	You are right about the one trick pony thing. They are deadly against living seeing encounters, even if they have high fort saves. But against creatures that are nonliving, nonseeing or have insane fortsaves, they are six levels without any useful extras and four levels entierly wasted. So, if they are overpowered or underpowered varies from campaign to campaign. It's still a wonderfully fun race, even moreso actually. But they are for single adventures and dedicated campaigns, not for regular campaigns that arn't modified to fit such characters. Playing a good character of a regular evil race merely mean that prejudiced people will hate you. Playing a medusa means that people will panic whenever they see you, and even people who trust you will at some level be scared of you. And when they meet you again after some time apart, how can they know that you are you and not some evil medusa impersonating you just to get them to look you in the eyes? You are everyone's primal nightmare. Might as well enjoy it. :D