Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RadicalTaoist 05-06-07, 10:02 PM	It seems almost everywhere on these boards people carry the implicit assumption that a party of 4 in D&D should include four specific types of PC: one PC each classed into the fighter, cleric, mage, and rogue roles. It's against other classes in the same role that classes are balanced against in the discussions on Classes and Prestige Classes. It's usually expected for a build to fall into one of these four roles when presented on the Character Optimization boards. There's this overwhelming paradigm present that a four person party in Dungeons and Dragons must include a front line melee combat character, a character with trapfinding and sneak attack but less front line capability, a fragile spellcaster with utility and offensive spells, and a more durable spellcaster with healing and support spells. That irritates me. It irritates me on a number of levels. First, it irritates me that the game is suggested to be balanced this way. The levels of power the arcane and divine spellcasters can reach, even in Core only, dwarf the capabilities of other classes. Anyone's opinion on balance aside, it is not that hard to see where one of these four roles can be subsumed or made irrelevant by a class or character that's supposed to lie in a different role. Second, it irritates me because it primes, via suggestion, the habit in players to design characters for these roles in a party and only these roles in a party. We can come up with an infinite number of personalities and backgrounds to give life to fascinating characters with...so why should I assume there are only four kinds of approaches my characters should take to adventuring? Third, it irritates me how this creates a fixation on strategies designed solely for this kind of party; usually all variations of "the Fighter guy goes up front, the Rogue tries to flank and sneak attack, the mage stays far from combat and the Cleric moves close to whoever needs healing". Never mind how numerous monsters, in the core monster manual alone, can rip this strategy apart (ignore the fighter and go for the squishies for one). Why should all parties follow strategies in this vein? Boooooooring. So what do I do with ideas that irritate me? I like to kill them. I can be a bad person in that way; but this particular idea deserves to die. I would like to extend an invitation to everyone else on these boards to tell me about your (roughly) four person parties that didn't fall into the paradigm of four boxes to organize characters with. I would especially like to hear what innovative tactics and approaches to problem solving you were able to come up with when you built parties this way. I'll start. Below are descriptions of two parties I have played in, both of which have not toed the traditional four-role line. Included with each are descriptions of two encounters. I've tried to cover challenging encounters, including situations where we were caught at a tactical disadvantage or faced foes well suited to fight us. I've also hoped to demonstrate both in-combat and out-of-combat capabilities. (In case anyone's wondering, these games are currently still going; I play them on OpenRPG) Based in Eberron, Eclipse Inquisitives is a small private investigation and bounty hunting firm based out of Sharn. We've run around various parts of Eberron in four proper adventure arcs (two of which were the published modules Shadows of the Last War and Whispers of the Vampire's Blade, the rest were homemade) to date and have just started our fifth. Encounters tend towards information gathering, social interaction, and spectacularly violent combat. Here are the party members, with class and prestige class breakdown. Members Elerosse Tasardur: Elf ranger (using the sublime way variant in my signature) and Revenant Blade At first glance, 'Rosse appears to fit the tank role. He is brutally effective in combat with his double scimitar (specializing in critical hit delivery, as often and as painfully as possible) and has become the party's primary damage dealer in the last few levels. However, he has neither the highest AC nor the largest hit point pool in the party. Secondly, he's also our primary scout with very high Spot and Listen checks. He's actually far more skilled than the tank role expects, capable of handling many infiltration and mobility challenges. He does not try to hold the line either; he deals damage rather than attempt deterrence. Lehatharath: Kalashtar ardent, recently multiclassed into crusader. Lehatharath seems to straddle the tank and healer roles; he has the highest AC and hit point pool in the party, can become even harder to kill thanks to his Defensive Precognition buff, and carries easy healing with his Touch of Life power. However, he lacks offensive strength in melee compared to Elerosse, Torrin, or Angela's constructs. His healing is also limited and not used in combat except in case of emergencies (in fact, he can only heal his own ability damage at the moment, and not that of others). Most of his offense lies in his mind-affecting powers (two debuffs and the damaging Mind Thrust) making him effectively a heavily armored enchanter in combat. Moreover, he is more skilled than the tank or healer roles suggest. Many ranks in Gather Information and the Urban Tracking feat, combined with a number of information gathering psionic powers and items give him the point position in places where detective work is needed (although he appreciates 'Rosse's significant tracking abilities). Torrin Ghaladra: Elf monk, ninja, swordsage, and Shadow Sun Ninja Like Elerosse, Torrin appears to fall into one of the four roles, namely the sneak position. He's got sudden strike, heavy Hide and Move Silently ranks, and trapfinding. The catch? He throws himself into combat with less abandon than the more resilient Lehatharath or Elerosse. He does this for two reasons. First is that he has excellent defenses. His AC is good, though not as good as Lehatharath's often is; more importantly, he can call upon invisibility from both his maneuvers and ninja ki abilities. Invisibility can often be a better defense than high AC or HP; it's kept him alive with less HP than the rest of the party. Having incredible saves - the best in the party by far for almost all three - doesn't hurt either. The second reason is that he can flank from any angle (with the Island of Blades stance) and perform combat battlefield control that a fighter type is normally expected to provide (with his Setting Sun maneuvers). On top, his Touch of the Shadow Sun ability allows him to heal allies after damaging enemies. It's not uncommon for Torrin to heal more hit points in a battle than Lehatharath. Angela Loren d'Ghallanda: Halfling shaper and Astral Zealot Don't let the levels in a caster-role class like the shaper fool you; indirectly, Angela is the party tank. Offensively, she can summon astral constructs, and it's always preferred for the disposable and powerful constructs to take the lead in melee combat than any of the others. Defensively, she is far more resilient than the mage role suggests. Her Fortitude save is as high as her Will save, she often enjoys an better AC than Elerosse, has more HP than Torrin, and she almost always has some damage reduction available from class features and powers. Her toughness means the party can worry less about keeping her safe and more about taking the fight to the foe. She also has excellent social skills and the benefits of Favored in House to solidify her position as party face. In this series of encounters, we had to storm a Riedran embassy in the middle of the night and eliminate three Inspired ambassadors. All of them were NPCs of considerably higher level than the party and well optimized. Each of the Inspired had two shifter warblade bodyguards, and a number of embassy guards (human psychic warriors) were on patrol as well. Torrin and Angela scouted the building out ahead of time and tested it for anti-teleportation measures. Angela was also able to get us a map of the complex with her House connections and social skills. Lehatharath put his investigation skills to work and found out what he could about the Inspired and their defenses ahead of time. On the night of the assault, we Dimension Doored into the embassy kitchen, a spot we knew was undefended, and did a bit more scouting. Turns out the second floor of the embassy, with the bedrooms and all, was protected from teleportation from outside - but not from within the building. We teleported past the human guards and into one of the upstairs bedrooms, employing a Suspended Silence item Lehatharath had bought. In there we found a surprised Inspired ambassador, a human psion NPC with whom she was conversing, and two shifter bodyguards. Lehatharath had the entire party on a mindlink, so they communicated telepathically while we attacked in perfect silence. The unexpected human psion made telepathic contact with Lehatharath before teleporting away; Angela discovered the direction of his escape with Trace Teleport (important plot point). Torrin dropped the Inspired with three poisoned shuriken (sleep poison) and performed a coup de grace on her the next turn. Lehatharath and Elerosse focused on the shifters. Lehatharath confused one with an Id Insinuation before nailing it with a painful Mind Thrust, and Elerosse simply applied his devastating full attacks in Blood in the Water stance. Both shifter bodyguards fell quickly. Unfortunately, the bodyguards kicked the bedroom door open in the fight and the human guards outside noticed what was going on and raised the alarm. We'd also found that these shifters had stronger mental and physical defenses than we anticipated (Warblades with the Moment of Perfect Mind and Stone Bones maneuvers), making them more resilient to Lehatharath's and Elerosse's attacks (they'd fortunately rolled poor, so we rolled over them this time). We moved out to engage the guards in a defensive posture. They'd taken an action to prepare themselves with psionic powers before attacking, and Angela took that time to summon an astral construct behind them. While they dealt with that, she teleported the party into another room, one we knew from the maps had a secret stairway to the first floor. Sneaking downstairs, we found the second Inspired ambassador talking to her shifter bodyguards. Torrin became invisible and moved close to strike her, and then we were exposed to the next unpleasant tactical surprise of the night - she had the Touchsight power active and noticed him immediately. Combat ensued, where Elerosse rushed forward to help Torrin with the shifters. Lehatharath also advanced while Angela started creating another construct, and struck the shifters with a weak mental effect to probe their defenses (and test his theory that they were not infinite). In the meanwhile, the psion moved to feint and attack Lehatharath, but he managed to beat the feint and avoid a potentially devastating sneak attack. This did lead to unpleasant tactical surprise number three: her dagger was a suppression weapon, which dispelled all of Lehatharath's magical defenses and the party mindlink. While Torrin and Elerosse focused on the shifters and brought them down, Angela's astral construct charged and bull rushed the Inspired *through* a dais in the centre of the room, dealing large amounts of damage. The elves finished the two shifters off while Lehath attempted to Mind Thrust the Inspired. Unpleasant tactical surprise number four was that she had used a psionic item to give herself Reddopsi ahead of time, rebounding the Mind Thrust back on Lehatharath; but he had an excellent Will save and wasn't about to get served by his own power. She stabbed the construct with her suppression dagger, dispelling it, but by that time the elves were done with the shifters (with some help from Angela) and had no problem cutting her down (she was badly wounded at this point). We were looting their bodies and healing those wounds when the third Inspired arrived. This time, our enemy was not caught by surprise. 'Rosse moved to engage the shifters while Torrin went after the Inspired. A shifter attacked Lehatharath, who stepped back out of range and reestablished his Defensive Precognition power (granting a bonus to AC and saves). This unwittingly saved his life after the Inspired dropped a devastating Energy Missile power on Lehatharath and Angela. This Inspired was apparently a specialist at such powers; it did so much damage that the partially wounded Lehatharath was knocked to under 0 hp even after making his save. Angela made her save too, in thanks to having cover from the rubble left after her construct had destroyed the dais in the centre of the room. She was creating an astral construct at the time; by expending her psionic focus she was able to concentrate on the power and created a massive construct with grappling and poison abilities. While it started to chew on the Inspired, she fed a potion to Lehatharath, bringing him back. Torrin moved in to attack the grappled Inspired, and we were treated to our last unpleasant surprise of the night - there was a Share Pain effect diverting half the damage the Inspired would take to his shifter bodyguards. It kept him alive longer, although the transferred damage was enough to kill a wounded shifter (the other one was taken down by 'Rosse next turn). The Inspired blasted the construct with a powerful energy missile in an attempt to escape, but the construct was too tough and didn't fall. Torrin then drained the last of the Inspired's life away with his Touch of the Shadow Sun, and the mission was completed. In this encounter, we were arriving into a new town with a Kalashtar NPC who was assisting the party; he stayed behind at first, however. We were passing a tavern when we heard a commotion and saw three brigands burst out with bloodied weapons - a dwarf wielding magic wands, a robed warforged, and a female human in Cyrran armor. We were about to give chase when an invisible mage somewhere drew our attention with a line of verbal spell components - and then an Evard's Black Tentacles spell. That trapped the party down. None of us were able to escape, but Angela was able to trap the three we could see in an Ectoplasmic Wall. This did not last long; the human warrior burst out with a strength check while the warforged (apparently a warlock) followed and blasted Lehatharath and Torrin with an eldritch chain; Lehatharath was hit but Torrin managed to dodge it even when grappled. Elerosse eliminated the magical effect with an Iron Heart Surge (we use the RAW ruling that it dispels area effects) and started to move forward. Then the invisible mage dropped a Solid Fog on us. Torrin went invisible and then Shadow Jaunted out of the fog. Angela then hit both the fog and the invisible mage (located through scent thanks to Elerosse' Hunter's Sense stance) with an area dispel. This removed the fog and knocked out the mage's invisibility, but not the Flight that kept her airborne. As the half elf mage became visible, the warforged warlock also flew into the air and activated an invocation that allowed him to see and locate Torrin for her. The human warrior ran past the invisible Torrin, shrugging off an attack of opportunity. Lehatharath ran to the tavern door to check on possible survivors, and unfortunately found a bloodied scene without any visible at first. As Elerosse moved into position, the half elf mage vanished with a Dimension Door. Torrin stabbed the human warrior with the suppression dagger we'd taken off of the second Inspired mentioned above. This dispelled her magic items temporarily, and she turned to fight. Angela then successfully trapped the flying warforged in an ectoplasmic cocoon, sending it falling to earth. As the Cyrran woman turned to attack Torrin, the dwarf everyone had forgot about made his presence known by blasting the cocoon with a scorching ray. This freed the warforged, who vanished with a Flee the Scene invocation. The dwarf had been hiding in the shell of Angela's Ectoplasmic Wall the whole time. Lehatharath raced to help Torrin with the Cyrran while 'Rosse searched for the dwarf - who was invisible - by scent. Torrin laid into the Cyrran with a full attack, but that didn't hurt her much. She responded by dropping her disguise - the human was actually a transformed rakshasa, and she laid into Torrin with a painful full attack. At this point, however, Lehatharath was close enough to get close and whack her with a Mountain Hammer, ignoring her DR and dealing some good damage. He then used White Raven Tactics to give Torrin an advance turn, which Torrin used to go invisible and send the demon to the ground with a Mighty Throw. Elerosse moved up to the rakshasa at this point, having found the dwarf was gone, and whacks her with two nasty strikes - that don't penetrate the damage reduction at all. The attacks of opportunity Torrin and Lehatharath make as it stands do little damage as well. The Rakshasa drained some life from Lehatharath with a Vampiric Touch. Lehatharath struck her in response with a combination of maneuvers that denied her ability to make attacks of opportunity and gave him an attack of opportunity if she attacked anyone else. Torrin then blinded her with a Shadow Sun Ninja ability and drained her life in turn with Touch of the Shadow Sun. At this point the other NPC on our side arrived. Kanatash is a kalashtar soulknife/monk, a skilled and mobile fighter at both close quarters and long range. Angela had handed him a potion of fly and he took off towards the fight. Elerosse tore into the Rakshasa with a full attack, but managed to make little headway against its DR. The demon attacked Lehath but missed in her blindness. Angela then created an astral construct which tripped the demon. Lehatharath attacked the demon twice, dealing a little damage, and then Torrin healed Lehatharath and went invisible once more before full attacking the demon to little effect. Elerosse decides to spend this turn charging up his Combat Rhythm technique for a large bonus to attack next round, so he could steamroller the monster's damage reduction completely. Kanatash reached the fight scene, and we find that his soulknife is enchanted to beat the monster's damage reduction. She responded with a vicious full attack, forcing Lehath to do some emergency healing to give Kanatash a chance. The construct tripped her again, and then Torrin struck her with a Touch of the Shadow Sun. That, being negative energy damage, bypasses DR and was enough to finally drop the beast. With one of the brigands dead and the rest fled, we had to examine the crime scene. Lehatharath and Torrin went over the carnage, helping some survivors and finding clues with gloves of Object Reading and Lehatharath's Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions power (which revealed lots of useful plot information). Angela spoke with witnesses and the local sherriff, while Elerosse tracked the scent of the brigands backwards. They had escaped by teleportation, but they entered the tavern in the first place by foot - the trail Elerosse found was our best lead. I'd like to thank Tempest for helping me put together these character descriptions. The name of the game comes from character creation, when one too many jokes about Chrono Trigger led to the creation of a team where each member reflects a specific, single, almost elemental theme (indicated below). It's set in a custom world, which by most games' standards would be considered high-magic (or at least higher-magic, especially in the movers and the shakers). The team was originally a small security company from an oppressive magocracy who hired two renegade bodyguards from the nation the magocracy is currently at war at. At the time, the goal was to escape the magocracy's iron fist; it seems like this is within the team's grasp right now. Every adventure has been homebrew, with a serious focus on intrigue, character development, timing, and magic. Lots and lots of magic. Combat, when it happens, is often off the hook in that the team works as one, devising carefully timed teamwork attacks that serve to overwhelm the opposition. Liam Cross (Water): Human Swordsage, Shadow Sun Ninja, and Warblade With a class breakdown like that, Liam looks like a mobile heavy hitter, something more like a skirmishing monk. In truth, he is rather monklike in that he prefers to fight unarmed, but that's about where the similarities end (especially since he just got himself a shiny new spiked chain). This fellow is the TANK. He's impossibly hard to hit (and his default battle stance, Pearl of Black Doubt, amps his AC every time he's missed). He packs a lot of counters. He uses Setting Sun judiciously to relocate the enemy, often over cliffs, in pits, or in lakes. He tanks by forcing the opponent to deal with him -- or end up somewhere where they will be unable to strike their targets. It's a sort of active defense, one might say. However, tanking is not the limit of his abilities by far. Like Torrin in Eclipse Inquisitives, he's able to provide vital in-combat healing with Touch of the Shadow Sun. He's also an excellent scout with Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen checks of an impressive caliber, and a Sense Motive check that gives him a lie detector role in social situations. Ethan Cross (Fire): Human Swordsage Of all the characters in this game, Ethan's the closest to a stock party role -- but it isn't the melee skirmisher you'd expect from the monk-like swordsage. Ethan's a Desert Wind specialist, and really plays the swordsage more like a melee warmage. We're at the level where direct damage is beginning to wear out as an effective trick. In the meantime, though, he's been dishing out serious damage -- overwhelming amounts of it, mostly fire-based -- while demonstrating Desert Wind and Tiger Claw's great mobility options to boot (along with a few, but not many, Stone Dragon defenses). His defense is seriously lacking (his AC and HP are respectable, but nothing special for the level he's at), and his attacks are rather one-dimensional -- these would be serious impediments to his style, were it not for two other things: Liam, and Dayvid. Liam often provides defensive cover for Ethan's offensive punch, and Dayvid's battlefield manipulation enables Ethan to focus on whatever targets he needs to. (Besides, Dayvid typically packs Transposition spells, just in case Ethan bites off more than he can chew.) Ethan is extremely versatile in the manner in which he delivers damage, with ranged single shots, area effects at melee range, the multitargeting Firesnake maneuver, several charge-based maneuvers and a devastating full attack after bonuses from the Blood in the Water stance and a Desert Wind boost have been applied. He's also got Jump and Tumble to move where he's needed, very handy for giving Dayvid options with those Transpositions. A nice Sense Motive helps him do lie detection like his brother, and can assist in 'coercion' encounters with his Intimidate skill. Xek (Mirrors): Changeling psychic rogue (Mind's Eye), Chameleon Xek is an infiltration specialist, as the rogue core might suggest. However, that's where the similarity ends -- Xek has Persona Immersion, and is played in an interesting way which maps different forms to different Chameleon specialities. One day, Xek may be in the form of Ikaros, a charming rogue in every sense of the term with a touch of arcane trickery up his sleeve. The next, she may be Shevitha, a xeph acrobat with a healing gift and an almost childlike innocence about her. On another day, she may be Carlak, a mogrelfolk warrior with a "hold the line" infantryman attitude and a mean glaive at his side. At the moment, circumstances in-game prevent controlled switching (you'll know why if and when I'm bugged into providing RP summaries for these characters), but it still allows the "rogue" of the party to handle herself in melee without too much difficulty *and* provide some spell support. Simply put, a Chameleon fits whatever role they feel like at the moment. Dayvid Thales Dalawann: (Smoke) Gnome Illusionist / Shadow Adept / Geometer / Shadowcraft Mage Yeah, he does fit the bill as far as a wizard goes. The difference? He's banned Evocation and Necromancy, and has zero ranks in Concentration, and yet it has been his contributions to the game that often secure victory for the team. Proper application of enchantment and illlusion lead to enemies being confused out of their wits, debilitated, sealed off from combat, or worse. Furthermore, Dayvid's a skilled liar and manipluator, quite capable at leading people on even without magic if he needs to, while still providing the party knowledge base. Dayvid also has untold versatility as a vancian wizard: he's able to use shadow magic and various spells to mimic the effect of other spells on a spontaneous basis. The normal drawbacks of shadow illusions are mitigated (and in a few levels, will be completely reversed once he starts casting shadow spells more real than the real thing!). Despite his low defenses (I don't think his AC's ever beat 11), he has been hit *twice* in the entire campaign to this date. He's also as likely to spend a round cleaning his nails as casting a spell, given how many combats he's reduced to waiting for the foes to succumb to his powerful lasting battlefield control effects. Blasting and worrying about preparation is for suckers - Dayvid's options are so versatile he's practically a role unto himself.
Tempest Stormwind 05-06-07, 10:18 PM	I'd like to weigh in by saying that I'm in both of these games with RT right now, and this post came out of a bit of a discussion we were having. We share identical opinions on the archetypal party-of-four approach, in that it's a reasonably effective spread of abilities but stifling, both creatively and tactically. I noted this especially when teaching the game to a bunch of new people -- every single one of them had a brilliant character idea, but not one fell into the classic four-roles paradigm (most were hybrids in some way, shape, or form -- expressed mechanically, they would typically be duskblades, favored souls, druids, or psychic warriors). I look forward to seeing some other examples of busting the 4-role-box. I'm especially interested in two types of encounters for such parties -- ones where you "shouldn't be alive" so to speak (hard encounters that typically need a balanced approach to defeat, but your group emerged victorious) and encounters where you had a "flawless victory" (where your unusual makeup led to a remarkably easy fight where the classic 4-man team wouldn't have). Of particular interest to me are TACTICS -- RT mentioned above the stereotypical "fighter holds line, rogue flanks, wizard stays back and casts, cleric defends and heals" approach... which I, personally, find both boring and unsatisfying to play (my characters tend to make use of the environment and unconventional application of magic). I'd love to hear what innovative tactics your nonstandard team makeup has produced as well, especially if it's dynamic and novel.
CryoSilver 05-06-07, 10:21 PM	I have very rarely actually seen the 4 class setup. Most 4 man grousp I've been in have involved either a cleric, rogue and 2 fighters (or some basic variation with non-core classes), or cleric, rogue and 2 casters. My favorite group, though, was 4 clerics. Each focused on something different: we had a heal-bot, a melee monster, a buff-monkey and another that acted as a "face."
Fencerboy 05-06-07, 10:26 PM	I am currently DMing the following: Tiefling Knight 3 (ECL4) Fire Genasi Ranger 3 (ECL 4) Aasimar Cleric of Chauntea 2 (ECL 3) As you can see, the party lacks an arcane caster altogether, and this cleric is the first one to be played in our group in quite a while. Notice that all the players chose planetouched, however. The Knights player enjoys trying to overcome evil stereotypes (although he hasn't done drow yet), the Fire Genasi is a pyro in RL, and the Aasimar fit the clerics design, with that players concept created before race and class were selected. We never follow archetypes. Ever.
SephDragoon 05-06-07, 10:38 PM	Currently, we are playing a campaign that should have 4 players, but one is more or less absent, our cleric. I am the Rogue/Sorcerer (multiclassed for goodness) We also have a twf crit freak and a strength dependant barbarian. What we should have is a cleric, not your normal cleric, but a necromancer summoner. Sadly, he (or she if refering to the player), has not been around much. This leaves us where we had been the entire campaign, without a healer. And we do just fine.
Mystic Lemur 05-06-07, 11:17 PM	My favorite group, though, was 4 clerics. Each focused on something different: we had a heal-bot, a melee monster, a buff-monkey and another that acted as a "face." But, see! You are taking four clerics and jamming them into the 4 boxes. Why not four heal-bots? Why not four High Priest types? I dream of running a party of all rogue types. That would be fun, challenging, and OUTSIDE the boxes. But alas, the players don't want to be sneaky...
Ongorth 05-06-07, 11:47 PM	Fighter, Fighter, Rogue, Rogue. My group played this party for years and it was wonderful. All four party members rush the opponent down mercilessly, tripping and sneak attacking anything in its way into oblivion. At level 10 the addition of oppurtunist to the Rogues just sealed things up. I mean, I know it doesn't sound very innovative or anything, but considering how reliant most groups are on spells, it is friggin' brilliant in its own way. The characters were designed to win initiative and/or get surprise rounds so that the opponent would be dead or running before they could use any good abilities. The party could outpace any monster that relied on HP damage and save-or-screwed effects mean little when there is so much redundancy between party members (Man you paralyzed the rogue. Good thing we have a spare!). A few restorative and buffing items and a careful eye towards which commissions they selected and they were tight. Really, this group convinced me that spellcasters just aren't that fun. When you can't just bypass everything anything you want as a standard action the game is cooler. Another really funny party was Fighter, Wizard, Wizard, Nymph. Both of the wizards focused on control spells, with one favoring summons and the other favoring defensive stuff. Basically, this party was the exact opposite (even though the fighter in this party was one of the fighers in the other party) of the other. They simply did not so any damage, instead completely looking up the fight with stunning gaze, acid fog, wall of ________, trips, summoned elementals, etc. while slowly chipping the opponent away. Every combat took a long time to resolve, but usually it was a forgone conclusion early on. The opponents would get seperated and stalled while the fighter individually pounded them. For a powerful single opponent would be subjected to repeated save-or-abilities from behind barriers of spell created obstacles and the fighter. Probably the most "professional" party I'd ever been in, from the perspective that they always were able to solve every encounter they faced with a clear, efficient strategy that was often ad-libbed and always effective. It also helped convinve me that the game is less fun with two wizards, because you really, really always have a solution to every problem as a standard action, even when both wizards are intentionally limiting their spell lists for thematic and balance concerns.
RadicalTaoist 05-07-07, 12:00 AM	Good example, Ongorth. The second example party will be finished sometime later. I'd like to hear more about real examples from others, particularly with details (as Tempest pointed out). I'm interested in the specific encounters the less conventional parties shined in.
Tempest Stormwind 05-07-07, 12:01 AM	But, see! You are taking four clerics and jamming them into the 4 boxes. Why not four heal-bots? Why not four High Priest types?EXACTLY. To borrow a Final Fantasy metaphor, this isn't like going Redmage/Redmage/Redmage/Redmage. It isn't asking if you managed to get the old four-role team using different classes. This is more like asking if anyone's gone Whitemage/Whitemage/Thief/Blackbelt, or somthing else equally off-the-wall, to see if the old four-role team is even valid. As I said, I'm most interested in tactics and actual-game examples if possible. Follow RT's format if you can. Ongorth's isn't bad either -- I especially like what I see in the second party (though I question how the first one would have handled something like a flyer or anything that targets a will save), in that it worked on its strengths, targeted opponent weaknesses, and, above all else, was fun to play.
Ongorth 05-07-07, 12:28 AM	As I said, I'm most interested in tactics and actual-game examples if possible. Follow RT's format if you can. Ongorth's isn't bad either -- I especially like what I see in the second party (though I question how the first one would have handled something like a flyer or anything that targets a will save), in that it worked on its strengths, targeted opponent weaknesses, and, above all else, was fun to play. If I have time, I can post full details including example combats, but thats a lot of work for no reward. Like I mentioned briefly with the first party, they were very careful with what commissions they took. If there wasn't a low ceiling, they wouldn't take the commission! The will save thing is less of an issue. The king of the mass will save targetting effects (Mind Flayers) are super brittle and there best defense (SR) is entirely irrelevant. Otherwise, most parties have one or two people with weak will saves that are going to be hosed anyway, at least in this party the vunerible person was never going to be the "vital link". But, seriously, the second party absolutely controlled combats. I remember one encounter involved them getting surrounded and ambushed by a group of Gythanki bandits on a barren stretch of an unfamiliar plane with the only terrain feature being the Mercenary and Pacifist Sphinx that they were riding who decided to take a nap when the action started. Being surrounded by enemies (two of which had ninja levels which we all know are deadly against wizards who haven't got detect invisible up!) would seem to be a tricky encounter, especially with no walls to use blocking out enemies. But the party quickly readjusted to the situation, rushed one side of the fight, disabling as many as possible before covering themselves with solid fog to prevent retaliation. The enemies wanted to avoid clumping together, so they kept spread apart while the party "fog cloud jumped" attacking one or two at a time before going after another. At one point in the fight every single Gith was stunned, held or tripped and there was at least 8 of them. In fact, the party only ended up killing one of them when the Nymph cdged one of the held opponents. She felt really guilty about that, particularly her player after I mercilessly added three minutes of gory details to the "Merciless display of cruelty". Good times.
SephDragoon 05-07-07, 12:32 AM	I would personally enjoy playing in aparty of all rogue types. Even if they multiclassed and stuff (and I love to multiclass), it would be fun to play where everyone could stick together in gathering information and scaling walls and sneaking by guards. Yes, even if it did turn into a Naruto-esque campaign...
parad0cz 05-07-07, 02:50 AM	Ah, the 4 Prime Roles. Really, its one of the things that make D&D, well, D&D. As you may or may not be aware, pre 3rd edition basically catergorized every class in one of the 4 'boxes' as you call them. Warrior- Included Fighter, Ranger and Paladin(good luck rolling a natural Paladin...) Wizard- Included Mage, Illusionist Priest- Included Cleric and Druid Rouge- Included Thief and Bard Yes, they were actually presented that way. Because D&D was, and is to my belief, a game about teamwork. Where everyone has their own skillsets to contribute to the team. The game was, and is, designed so that those 4 roles work well together [I]without stealing one anothers thunder[I] This histiry continues onto today. At the heart, you can see it in the CR system- where 4 is the number that the math is based on. Now, in today's game, you CAN get by... especially if your DM tailors the campaign to you. The DM/Player relationship is far less adversarial than the days of Gygaxian Dungeoncrawls. But if you play the game 'straight out of the box' you are going to need people to fill certain roles. So whatever i say in this post, its mostly for Standard D&D, and i agree with you that a DM can tailor a campaign. Now in another thread(that i can no longer find) i had a discussion on the main 'roles' that a party should have filled for your average campain. While the point of the discussion was more so players could construct a well rounded party, it also illustrated the fact that the game NEEDS certain roles filled. Take healing for example. Sure you COULD run without a healer, but its expensive and difficult and the game obviously was designed for someone to heal. And if you plan on doing the Dungeon part of D&D- You need a Rogue. Or a Beguiler nowadays... But you need that trapfinding skill. Sure a Cleric can cast Find Traps... but again, hardly a solution. SOmeone needs to be a skillmonkey. You could run an all straight rogue party... but a Nightsong Enforcer, Nightsong Infiltrator, Arcane Trickster and a Shadowbane SomethingorOther will be a lot more effective in a 'standard game'. Because, really, in 'standard D&D'- you need magic. The design of the game assumes you have access to things by a certain level to deal with appropriate CR. NOw, the latter party is still a 'rogue party', but so much more. The problem with the '4of the same thing' type party is no one has thier own chance to shine. Everyone does the exact same thing. And thats no fun, to me anyway. Now I agree that Magic outpaces NonMagic. Again, this is D&D history/philosophy- Mages Rule, Fighters Drool. Elminster is Ed Greenwood's ALter Ego afterall, a Mary JAne if there ever was one. And what do you expect from a game designed by bookish geeks?;) The game is still evolving(See Bo9S), and this is one of those bumps. I also agree that Divine Trumps All- but if you think thats bad, the pre 3rd ed was worse. NO ONE wanted to play the cleric. You might as well have played a walking Wand of Cure Light Wounds, because A) your party wouldnt let you memorize anything else(and no spontanious conversion!) and B) They wouldnt let you in combat either. Today's overpower is the patch- sure they are overpowered in comparasin, but thats the only way someone will play a healer- which as i mentioned, the game is designed to have. Problem is, some of the old guard STILL wont want to play a cleric;) And thats thing- the game is filled with players who have played the previous versions and have habits(as you suggested). Not that those habits arent borne out by the newer versions, because the designers too have the same history. If you arent aware of the pains of pre3rd, i will tell you how impossible it was to gish, or even play a swashbuckler type charater. The game just didnt support it! I agree also with the IDIC philosophy of character creation- but i will say again some roles just need to be filled. And the 4 boxes of F/C/M/T are actually helpful for that. At some point you are going to mix it up in close combat, and somebody is going to need to do it. Now you dont have to be the Sword and Boarder... you can be a Swashbuckler, or a Chain Guy... but unless your DM is really accomidating, your not going to get away with ranged combat your whole career. Now, to me, i can still see the lingering effects of the 4boxes in your examples. Especially the first one. But you have moved around the roles, which is one of the reasons i posted the Party Roles thread- to learn options to give my players. Let me explain. Lets take some D&D roles -Face, Traps/Skills Guy, Utility, Blaster/range, Tank, HEaler, Scout, Survival. Now, lets say i wanted a party who could do all of that. As a group of 4 players, how do we divvy roles? Well, we could go your Traditional Sword and Board buff guy, Cleric, MAge, and Rogue with Survival skills. But lets see what else. Hmm, Survival could be Ranger, Druid, or Rogue type. SKillmonkey? Aforementioned Beguiler or Rogue. Face could be Cleric, Rogue, Beguiler, BArd. A high dex swashbuckler can do the tank role, or a chaintripper, and of course a cleric. So ok, lets say we want a forester campaign. A ranger, rogue, druid and mage could work great. The ranger could be built as a tank. Or not, maybe ranged. Maybe the druid is your tank, or maybe he is your utility? WHat im trying to say is that there is a lot of variety and workspace even in the 'traditional roles' ALl this is a very round about way of saying that i still think the "4 box" is still a useful paradigm for character creation IF you open up to the idea that certain 'roles' can float. I will end with examples from my own campaign(and go to bed, as im sure this post has become less coherent) War Campaign- This a friend ran with the Char Creation stipulations of No Magicusers. I ran a TWFranger/rogue Nightsong Enforcer, a friend made a Chain Fighter, and another made a archer. As we were around level 9- this game required much NPC support, and you could tell the game was heavly edited by the monsters we did and didnt fight. Fun though, with the tactics. And using the cannonfodder... Pirate Campaign!- Hexblade(Board updated)/Rogue/Scarlet Corsair, Druid...Something, and a Bard(Shantys donchaknow;)) The Scarlet Corsair was our Flank/Tank type. Druid was more 'heavy artillary' and survival skills, and bard was buff/face/heal. Bard and Corsair shared skills duty, and druid would heal on occasion. As my playing group usually has on DM and 3 players, we usually have to rely on a NPC to round us out, but we traditionly like to cover all the bases, and if possible have backup/doubleups just incase a guy goes down
Splendide 05-07-07, 06:59 AM	The only essential party member is a healer.
gullas 05-07-07, 07:17 AM	It kind of reminded me of one of the party which I played in I played a LN half-orc monk , there was a Fighter and a rouge , We totally lacked both arcane and divine powers but we were kicking som butox;) (and also potion of cure light wounds was what we were always buyin:rolleyes: )
MHolland 05-07-07, 09:11 AM	The only essential party member is a healer. You're probably right about that. Any combination will work imho. Some combinations make adventuring easier but I enjoy the challenges of a strangely mixed group. Lacking a healer though and the fun factor on the game tends to drop a bit.
wrecan 05-07-07, 09:54 AM	The only essential party member is a healer. I don't even think that's essential, if the DM is cooperative. There's no reason the party couldn't commission (or the DM couldn't include as treasure) a healing item that's usable by anybody. Or the party could spend a good chunk of treasure on healing salves. Or UMD+wands of healing.
Zherog 05-07-07, 10:33 AM	The only essential party member is a healer. Depends what you mean. My first 3.0 D&D group consisted of: Elf Ranger/Rogue (me, the character that had the name "Zherog" originally) Elf wizard - my wife, heavy on evocation spells Half Elf sorcerer - also heavy on blasting damage Human Diviner/Loremaster - focused on keeping things occupied while the rest of us killed it; spells like hold person/monster, wall spells, and so on Our only healing came from my character's Use Magic Device skill with wands. As for specific encounters... sorry, my memory isn't that good. That game ended before 3.5 came out. I know we kicked a lot of ass, and didn't bother taking names (we were too busy kicking ass ;) ).
TheYeti1775 05-07-07, 11:08 AM	I currently DM the following: Roven (think Gnoll) Ranger - Deceased (ogre killed him with critical) Half-Elf Barbarian Human Barbarian Elf Wizard/Sorc (going for Ultimate Mage PrC) Human Cleric - who will only heal party members if they attend morning 'mass' for 5 minutes as he regains spells. So no Rogue in this party.
Tempest Stormwind 05-07-07, 12:09 PM	I don't have a lot of time here, so I'll be brief. You claim you need trapfinding, and I agree. That means that you need something like a rogue, beguiler, ninja, scout, or so on in the party. However, just because you're playing "a ninja" doesn't mean he's a carbon copy of every other ninja. It doesn't even mean he's in the archetypal thief role! Take a look at the two sample games RT mentioned above. In Eclipse, our trapfinder is relatively fragile, sneaky, and quick -- but the similarities end there, since he can control the battlefield rather well, dish out respectable damage, and provide a lot of in-combat healing. In Fire, Water, Smoke, mirrors, the trapfinder is as often an arcane caster, a divine caster, a woodsman, or a warrior. In one of those forms, he (actually she, but the identity is male) is actually primarily a reach fighter, complete with heavier armor and polearm, but remains capable of spotting traps, secret doors, and similar, and handling them. (If his armor remains a problem, the WIZARD is actually trained in sabotage, so providing the DC isn't too high he can disable some traps as well. Talk about breaking shells? A wizard who can handle traps without magic!). Similarly, look at those two games for healers. In both, the majority of healing comes from Touch of the Shadow Sun -- that is, our 'thief' in Eclipse, and our 'tank' in FWSM. Point to the cleric in either game. The closest you'd get is FWSM's 'thief' if she's in the divine focus mode, or PERHAPS the ardent ("psionic cleric") in Eclipse, although he only knows the weak Touch of Health power (as described above, he's more of a heavily-armored enchanter/diviner). No cleric, and in one game there's no-one in a class that even RESEMBLES cleric... and yet we get by just fine in the healing department. Just because you need a skill from one of the four boxes doesn't mean you have to play the stereotype from that box. Doing so only stymies creativity, unless the best your imagination could come up with was Variant Of Dwarven Fighter Number 36. I'm interested in the nonstereotypical approach. You may need all the skills, but you don't need all the classes or role stereotypes.
Phrennzy 05-07-07, 12:15 PM	Running a campaign with: 13 Cleric 13 Druid 13 Mage That's it. The cleric is the front man in combat, along with the druid's animal companion. Dealing with traps is interesting. Lots of 'I trigger it with Mage Hand from across the room' type stuff, lol.
SephDragoon 05-07-07, 02:06 PM	Running a campaign with: 13 Cleric 13 Druid 13 Mage That's it. The cleric is the front man in combat, along with the druid's animal companion. Dealing with traps is interesting. Lots of 'I trigger it with Mage Hand from across the room' type stuff, lol. Yeah, but who is detecting them?
ENHenry 05-07-07, 02:18 PM	Really, it isn't the Fighter/Rogue/Priest/Wizard model, it's more the Fighter/Skill user/ Spell user model. The problem is that, if a party leaves one base of Warrior/Rogue/Spellcaster uncovered, it means that the kinds of endeavors they can succeed at are limited, too. As a DM, you must either accept that your players will fail a mission or three, and you either need to scale back your mission scenario, or just let the players fail. Given that failure usually means the end of the campaign, it's hard to let the PC's go off and do that without some warning or tweaking. A party of all rogues means that bulldozing the unstoppable engine of destruction won't do it -- there needs to be another means of victory, or a means to let PCs run away to start new somewhere else. 4 Fighters means that they've got to bulldoze the opposition, before that opposition gets off its will-save spells and destroys the party.
Guan 05-07-07, 02:28 PM	Dragon Shaman Marshal Fighter Samauri Ninja Rogue Big group. Very little to no healing. Healing to 1/2 hp was taken care of by the draconic aura. I had to make sure there was plenty of time between "missions" to account for natural healing. It was a lot of fun having very little arcance AND very little healing. Lots of auras and melee going on. I believe they are level 6 or 7 now and everything is going well, though we've lost the fighter to life.
CCS 05-07-07, 02:49 PM	The only essential party member is a healer. Shhh! Don't tell that to my Thur. night game.... We're comprised of a barbarian, a ranger, a bard(me) and a sorceror. All single classed, all human, and all by choice. Our healing capabilities are very limited; several potions of various strengths, 1 fading wand of cure light, the bards own cure light spell, with each character having ranks in the basic healing skill. Could we change this by multi-classing? Or buying more healing equipment? To the first one, yes. Yes we could. But it's not going to happen becuase we're playing actual characters, not just optimized stat blocks. Of the four of us, the only character who might possibly have some character driven reason to travel further down the "cleric" type path is the ranger. But I really doubt that'll happen..... As for the second? It's not that we intentionally don't carry much. We'll often stock a second wand & a few more potions. But right now? Other than looting our foes, we're nowhere near a source of resupply. Even the smallest friendly village is a week+ ride away, there's nothing to be gained there, and we've more pressing bussines deeper on into enemy territory. But overall this is NOT a party that relies upon constant healing effects(even when more are available). What it IS is a party that relies upon making carefull plans & simply playing intelligently.
Tempest Stormwind 05-07-07, 03:43 PM	I hate to say this, CCS, but "playing actual characters" does not preclude multiclassing nor does it preclude optimization, and multiclassing does not prevent you from playing actual characters nor does it turn you into optimized stat blocks. You can optimize and still play an actual character. I should post up some of our logs from our earlier games -- you may note that two of the eight characters listed at the top have four separate classes in them, and all but one have two. This doesn't stop any of them from being realistic or deep characters. Playing a single-classed character doesn't make you a better roleplayer. It just means you're playing a single-classed character. Playing a multiclassed character doesn't make you a worse roleplayer. It just means you're playing a multiclassed character. Playing an OPTIMIZED character (who can be single- or multiclassed; if you don't grasp this, then you don't understand optimization) doesn't make you a better or worse roleplayer either -- it just means you're playing a character who is good at what he does. And why would you want to play a character who sucks at what he does? You can't roleplay if you're dead. I apologize for the off-topic. While not directed toward CCS, I would also like to stress that this thread is not about playing parties with a different set of four classes. This thread is about playing characters that abandon the Warrior/Mage/Priest/Thief rut -- either by going without one or two of the roles, or by blending the lines between the roles, or by tackling one or more of the roles in an unusual way, or something totally different. Having actual play experience related is a big part of this, as it shows that a party can not only function but thrive if it breaks with tradition. In the example games in the first post, Eclipse blurs the lines between tank/healer/face, sneak/healer/control, warrior/scout, and caster/face/tank, while FWSM blends tank/scout/healer, warrior/caster, caster/controller/sneak/face, and sneak/tank/healer/support. While some characters may be easier to categorize into one of the four basic archetypes than the others, very few are exclusively that role. We also approach these roles in unconventional ways -- in particular, look at how each group approaches tanking and healing. You'll see a distinct lack of armor and a definite "deficiency" in divine magic, but it works, and works WELL (well enough that the DMs can be as violent or as deadly as they want and the team still emerges without casualties). All without the stereotypical "box" roles that the game subtly brainwashes people into believing are necessary. If you cling to something simply because "it's always been done this way", then you might be surprised at how successful some nontraditional approaches are.
Ongorth 05-07-07, 04:02 PM	All without the stereotypical "box" roles that the game subtly brainwashes people into believing are necessary. Subtly brainwashes? Aren't we being a little melodramatic? The book lists cfrw as a suggestion and presents it as the "default party". That's it. Some people may well be happy to play the game on its default settings. Most people are going to customize to some extent. The fact that the core books include things like "Monk", "Bard", "Mystic Theurge" and "Arcane Trickster" shows me that from the very begining that the intention was to allow players to customize their characters in ways that didn't fit the default cfrw formation.
_SIN_ 05-07-07, 04:06 PM	Never been a part of the 4-man setup, mainly because there were 3 players, but I doubt we'd have gone down that route anyway - none of us like cleric/wizards - so we'd usually all multiclass, with maybe one dedicated warrior. Not once have I ever been in a group with BOTH wizard and cleric present, and we seemed to get no just fine. It's just a matter of 'thinking outside the box(es)!'....
LCD2YOU 05-07-07, 04:13 PM	Personally, I don't care if the entire party is comprised entirely of fighters or rogues or whatever. The world is already set. The bad guys are there. The monsters are there. I do not change the bad guys or obstacles based on what the players have. If the players feel themselves to be fighter weak, they can easily hire guards to go with them. They need a cleric? They can ask and while they are making a substantial donation to the temple, they must be (or lie convincingly) that they ar good followers of stated god. The party is always able to collect some info on who they are facing. If they can't or they are putting it together and they get fubared, that is their problem. It is the same as IRL. They get to learn about the NPCs in the game. They don't want to learn, they can die in ignorance.
taski 05-07-07, 05:22 PM	I'm in a two-person group: Half-elf gestalt rogue/urban ranger (second-story burglar) Half-elf gestalt rogue/sorcerer (occult detective) As you can see, no healer. A wand, a couple potions and an occasional trip to the Jorasco enclave does it. It's a sneaky, mystery- and puzzle- solving, urban campaign, and the higher priority is not getting hit in the first place. Thus, I don't have a lot of examples of these two dominating in combat. However, the sorcerer did once pull off a sneak attack on an escaping cultist, got a nice crit with his rapier, and nearly murdered the poor chap in one hit. Luckily, the cultist survived to be turned over to the watch, or the sorcerer would have become very unpopular with the authorities. I guess that's another reason this campaign doesn't see a lot of combat. Murder is a crime.
Leo 05-07-07, 08:00 PM	My first party was ranger, paladin, monk, and then a rogue who didn't last very long. My second party was sorceror, wizard, cleric, and the cleric had more natural strenght than wisdom. Now that I think of it, I never played the iconic 4 party. Actually, I agree in the fact that tank/trapguy/divine/arcane is pretty rare, especially since The 4 man party thingy is just a sugestion, not a rule. It's intended to help new players to survive. It's much easier to each player to just focus in one class and duty in the begginning(heal, blast, fight, skill use) than making a multiclass jigsaw with rules from a dozen supplements. Yeah, I know that you can build them, and I know that you can roleplay well your druidX/wizard Y/obscure class Z with alternative rules from book G, togheter with homemade rules 785, but guess what, other people must start somewhere, and I think saying go cleric and take the healing domain is much simplier than having to read the 2000 pages worth of fixes, fallaccies playguides, and god knows what else around here you some of you think it's essential to play the game. My current party, ironically, after some bizzarre twists is now composed by ALL the core fullcasters plus... a fighter. Yeah, 2 druids, 2 clerics, sorceror, wizard and fighter. Altough we rarely are able to get everybody togheter at the same time due to university work. Oh, and the fighter doesn't feel overshaddowed in any way.
1CentSage 05-09-07, 06:42 PM	I would like to extend an invitation to everyone else on these boards to tell me about your (roughly) four person parties that didn't fall into the paradigm of four boxes to organize characters with. I would especially like to hear what innovative tactics and approaches to problem solving you were able to come up with when you built parties this way. So here is a 4 character party which I played with as DM. I do know not if it will be percieved as innovative and it is surely not optimized, but it was fun to play and I think it is sufficiently out of the box to present it here. The campaign took place in a homebrew setting and involved lots of tactical challenges as part of a multi power group struggle in a border kingdom between two large empires. The amount of intrigue and number parties involved added the necessary element of surprise which usually lead to a good amount of unexpected combat encounters (some of which I might provide later, if I find the time). The campaign started at level 2 and finished at level 16. The WindGhosts rely mostly upon stealth, deception, mobiliy and surprise whenever possible, hence their name. However they have usually enough versatility and flexibility to adapt to most situations on the spot. Apart from that they have access to a lot of low to high level casting and three of the four are also capable melee combatants. For quite some time in the medium levels the party comprised only three characters (Thalia, Lysander and Fexer) and although the fourth character was missed the goup fared quite well nonetheless. Thalia Morrigan (South): Illumian rogue / chameleon / swordsage / jade phoenix mage Thalia is the party "rogue" as far as trapfinding and the disabling of devices are concerned. She is also an excellent infiltrator and information gatherer. However, she actually prefers to enter melee together with Fexer and Zyram whenever possible. Although her tanking abilities are very limited, she uses now her double aptitude class feature to great effect, combining battle focus and ability boost and sneak attack with (most of the time) arcane spellcasting. As an Illumian she uses Dex for bonus spells for all her spellcasting classes "freeing" secondary abilities and providing a good number of bonus spells. She has the highest "natural" Con score of the whole group as well as the most heavy armor. Since entering the JPM PrC she uses her spells mainly to power her arcane wrath ability. In contrast to her twin brother Lysander, she has a hot temper and while highly intelligent is quick to act, preferring to be "planning by doing" as she puts it. (I allowed her to qualify for JPM with her cameleon abilities as a houserule) Lysander Morrigan (North):Illumian wizard / shadow adept / incantatrix Lysander is Thalia's twin brother. He is the tactical brain of the group, a brilliant perfectionist. He conforms mostly to the "classical" arcane caster role. He focuses heavily on illusion and divination. In combat he uses more or less exclusively battlefield control spells and debuffs. He also likes to use veil on the party to set their appearance up for whatever the task at hand requires and to lead opponents towards false tactical decisions. One of his favorites is to play the role of Fexer's wolf animal companion. Fexer (West): Halfling monk / druid / master of many forms / swordsage Fexer is the primary melee combatant of the party and also an excellent tank due to his double Wis bonus to AC. With the Yodalla's Sense feat for Wis to initiative and fast wildshape he is not only usually the first to act in most combat situations but will be also in "good shape" for the situation. While he does not have access to high HD forms yet the selection plus a few low level maneuvers is sufficient to make him decent in melee and ok at battlefield control. He can also heal himself or others if need be. Most of the time Fexer plays the role of the scout or infiltrator, often together with Thalia. His large selection of wildshape forms makes him also a kind of "joker" for unusal tasks or group tactics. He so far never used an animal companion. Oh and he usues VOP. Think of that whatever you like ;) . Zyram Crane (East): Catfolk favored soul / iajutsu master / paladin Zyram is silent, stern, and dark, but nevertheless the motivating heart of the group as well as the party face in most situations that require diplomacy rather than trickery or intimidation (although he is quite adapt at the latter if neccessary). He is the second nominal melee character after Fexer, but in fact he is often third after Thalia. Since he does not wear armor, his tanking abilites are limited. His strength lies in devastating surprise attacks using his high initiatve and iajutsu focus skill together with catfolk pounce and increased speed. He has rather low Str and Con but compensates for that with excellent saves as well as healing and buff ability from his spells. Since the campaign world does not conform to the strict D&D alignment system, Zyram follows a different albeit not less strict Code of Conduct than the standard paladin and is also not lg (more ln).
CryoSilver 05-09-07, 07:57 PM	But, see! You are taking four clerics and jamming them into the 4 boxes. Why not four heal-bots? Why not four High Priest types? Because the healbot party would suck at killing things, and 4 high priests, unless of the same faith, would be at each other's throats constantly.
CannibalSmith 05-15-07, 12:09 PM	I'll contribute! We have no party to speak of. Human Arcane Hierophant (me) The leader of the Gatekeepers. His goal is to kill the Hexblade and save the world. Human Renegade Mastermaker The leader of "Cannith North" - a group that split off from Cannith West. His goal is to unite the Cannith. He's friends with the Hierophant and Merrix. Necropolitain Variant Sorcerer Formerly a kalashtar. His goal is... was to hoard. He's still a homicidal maniac, though. Demon Hexblade He was a human who became half-daelkir, who became human, who ate a thousand tortured souls, then became an Imp, and then became an unspeakable horror. He's still a PC. He cut out the heart of the kalashtar PC and reanimated him as a necropolitain slave. His goals are to kill Hierophant and Monk. And to conquer the world. Half-daelkir VoP Monk/Cleric Lawful Good half-daelkir are still insane aberrations. He led a monastic order before Hexblade kill them all. Elf Dervish He's an adventurer. :)
2y1y1z2 05-15-07, 12:20 PM	Had a party of 6 which consisted of every class that has the Trapfinding ability. Rogue, Scout, Ninja, Spellthief, Beguiler, and that one class from Complete Scoundrel. Lots of sneaking around and skill use.
Optimized_Commoner 05-15-07, 02:24 PM	I ran a game once where I house-ruled that the four player group would consist of a fighter, wizard, rogue and cleric. We used random encounters and only played in pre-written adventure modules. Everything was not just RAW, but the classic D&D stereotype. It was a fun demonstration of how far from "D&D standard" our games normally are. That game lasted for a few session before we finished laughing and said, okay, now let's get back to our normal style of gaming. We've never been in the four boxes except as a joke. Now we'll usually have someone in the group who can fight, someone who can do magic, someone who can heal people and someone who has lots of skills. But there's no guarantee that's 4 people with standard classes, hell maybe that's all just in the one character who is a gestalt bard/fighter. So to my mind, there are no boxes to break.
RadicalTaoist 05-15-07, 03:25 PM	I did not mean to forget this thread, and I will put in the FWSM example combat soon. I apologize for letting it go. Good to hear the boxes weren't as omnipresent as I first thought.
Archtyrant Terevoth 05-15-07, 04:59 PM	The only essential party member is a healer. Actually I've found that the healer's role has largely diminished in 3rd edition, due to the power of use magic device and the ability to get CLW wands. A paladin or ranger with a CLW wand in most cases is just as good a healer as your cleric. It's only when you need common resurrection where the healer's role once again becomes important.
Gold Halberdier 05-16-07, 04:05 AM	I've played the Game of Rogues... It was great fun, if a little weird at times. The only Arcane caster was my bard, the Cleric/rogue often refused to heal people, the Rogue/Fighter avoided Melee and the best Sneak was the main Melee guy. It was a swashbuckling kind of game, and extremely Monty Haul. We all had insanely powerful magical stuff for out level, most of which was designed by the DM. We all had Bluff, Sense Motive, and Innuendo (was 3.0) maxed or near it, so no one was "the" Face, we would all gang up on NPCs that we wanted things from. Our teamwork in verbal encounters was much better than in combat, usually. We could also sneak as a group, which gave the DM fits a few times. Xilonel- The my female Elven Bard, often frivolous, prim one minute and sexy the next, casually invasive of other's privacy yet very polite, and not above using her looks and Fascinate to get her way. Often used Prestidigitation to surround herself with the sweet scent of wildflowers. The only character without Rogue levels, but the only one with Slight of Hand and Open lock. Was the only character who would engage in both Melee and Ranged combat in almost every fight. Had a very nice magical long bow of distance and many Ammo types and a much less impressive Cold Iron rapier. When in Melee she would use a third party spell called 'slipping the ranks' that allowed her to teleport in 10 foot increments once per round, usually providing flanking or aid-another actions, though a few times she 'borrowed' the magical melee weapons from other players if they became incapacitated or ran away. Played the role of 'Nice cop', always reasonable and understanding when we were verbally ganging up on NPCs. Also primary provider of 'cure light wounds' and other healing. Peroudus- male Half-elf Aristocrat/Rogue who would 'try anything once'. Financially savvy but with an unfortunately tendency to go on ill-advised shopping sprees. He was a charmer, fast talker and faster runner-away. Possessed a nice +2 mithral chain shirt and a Wretchedly Overpowered +2 Keen Wounding Adamantine Rapier of Uber-doom (Designed by the DM) which was capable of killing trolls without fire or acid. The Aristocrat's d8 helped him with HP, which was good, because he was the only primarily melee member of the party, ducking in and out with Tumble and using the Cleric's summoned critters or Xilonel for a flanking buddy. He had the highest will save in the party... but the player could not role higher than a 5 on any will save, ever, so that did him little good. He could dish out damage in a fight, especially when the flanking came into play. In verbal confrontation he was the fast-talker, often confusing the target to soften them up for Xilonel's 'requests'. Dumont- Human LN Cleric of Boccob/Rogue.. the Archeologist, I kid you not. He took a feat to make knowledge skills class skill for all his classes and maxed a bunch of them out. He also maxed Search and Disable device and would go on dungeon crawls like they were archaeological digs. He pretty much refused to go into Melee, using Summon monsters for pretty much every situation that came up, from tripping traps he couldn't disable to granting him cover against enemy archers. He refused to heal party members that didn't go along with his meticulous plans unless it was life threatening (Except the bard, who he had a crush on and no chance with), and he would use that death-watch spell to check first. Total ass, was left behind by the other party members several times. In verbal battles he was the 'just the facts' straight man. The rest of us would bend those facts around to make them seem to say something different, but he was meticulous about telling the truth... if not all of it. Dessa- Half-Orc/Half-Dwarf (home brew, yeah!) Rogue/Fighter who looked and acted like a barbarian despite being quite literate, with an affection for poetry. You'd think she'd be the tank, but no... she had these Flaming Dwarf Throwing Axes Of Returning... So she would stand back with the arrow firing/singing bard and the Summoning/Buffing Cleric and just throw these things into combat, yelling "Geese!" to warn Peroudus that they were incoming. Her skill set was the more physical side of rogue (Jump, climb, balance, sneak, etc) but she was still fairly crafty. Her role in the Verbal attacks was the Paranoid Madwoman, making threats and accusations iun equal number. She would accuse NPCs of trying to cheat us, lying, stalling, waffling, confusing the issue (when we were the ones really confusing the issue), indecision, Lack ofwill power, betrayal, adultery, treason and anything else that came to mind. She was generally was the 'Bad cop'. I don't remember to many specific combats in detail, though I do remember using falling boulders to great effect in a counter-ambush that we'd bypassed because we could all sneak effectively, and turning half the hired mercenaries of our opponents to our side of the fight in the middle of battle. I am trying to figure out those 'spoiler' boxes used the the Original Poster, but have failed. Sorry.
Steely_Dan 05-16-07, 08:12 AM	In the current Planescape campaign I'm DMing the party composition is the following: -Drow, psion 9 -Half-orc, barbarian 2/ranger 9 -Human, spirit shaman 11 -Half-celestial human, psychic rogue 7 -Gold dwarf, divine bard 4/fighter 1/battlesmith 1/deepwarden 2/dwarf paragon 1/hammer of moradin 2 And it's working out swimmingly.
CannibalSmith 05-16-07, 12:36 PM	-Drow, psion 9 -Half-orc, barbarian 2/ranger 9 -Human, spirit shaman 11 -Half-celestial human, psychic rogue 7 -Gold dwarf, divine bard 4/fighter 1/battlesmith 1/deepwarden 2/dwarf paragon 1/hammer of moradin 2 Spot the optimizer. :)
1DHandful 05-20-07, 10:08 PM	In a homebrew-world PbP game where multiclassing was all but banned, the following party worked well: Halfling Spellthief Maenad Warlock Half-Orc Druid Elan Wilder Melee was an extremely rare concern, due to tactics, and everyone in the party had some capacity to heal, while 3 of 4 could take a turn as party face. The 4th, the Druid, was Plan B when melee actually came up.
TikiMan 05-21-07, 02:33 AM	My groups rarely subscribes to the boxes. When people ask 'what is everyone else playing' they're looking more to not overlap their abilities and less at filling missed roles. On several occasions a rogue with UMD and a wand served as our healer. Once had a troll barbarian who always got a 20 on searching for traps :rolleyes:. I played a Shaper who was at once the group tank (Astral Construct), group rogue (UPD+Astral Construct :plotting: ), and group healer (UPD+Empathic Transfer). It did take teamwork though, as fellow party members often bought wands/dorjes for me, and I went through dorjes of AC like crazy (command thought 'we're going to need another Timmy'). And don't get me started on the number of groups I've been in with nothing but DPS style spell-fighter types (Duskblades, Psiwars, Warblades, etc). I've never actually felt constrained by the basic 4 roles. Most of the time the DM just looks at the party and throws stuff at us that simultaneously challenges us and highlights our chosen abilities. If we've got a rouge, traps ahoy. If not, the DM only puts traps on stuff with giant 'don't do that' stickers all over it. Not having a cleric is a little more tricky to work out, but a constant supply of CLW wands from our guild usually suffices, and often makes the game a bit more fun.
SiCK_Boy 05-21-07, 10:16 AM	Our group is 5 to 7 players depending of the week, and consists of this: - Cleric of Pelor Lvl 7 - Monk Lvl 7 - Wizardess Lvl 8 - Sorceress Lvl 8 - Paladin Lvl 7 - Paladin Lvl 8 - Fighter Lvl 6 Most of the time, the fighter, one of the paladins and one of the arcane spellcasters isn't there. Even though we have more than 4 characters, we did try to follow the 4 boxes. We are clearly short on the trapfinding skills, and even sometime in the tank department when there's less combattants and more spellcasters. To compensate, we have the cleric rely a lot on Summon Monsters and the Monk is playing something more of a ninja, doing most of the scouting and spying. As for traps, we just suffer through them, but we haven't been exploring lots of underground dungeons. As for the global thread idea (the paradigm of the 4 boxes is perceived as a limitating factor by the author of the thread), here's my opinion: True, this conception of the game forces some limits on the players. However, as it's been expressed before, I think it's mainly to favor cooperative gaming. By having each character having it's own strength and weaknesses, and also by having each character playing a crucial role in the party, the game forces players to game together, not only for the fun of it, but to increase their chances of survival. Many people said they don't care for that standard setup and manage just fine without it. I doubt it's really the case. That's particularly evident at the lower levels. When you reach the higher levels, characters have access to lots of magic items that compensate for their weaknesses. But since the whole game is designed around this character setup, a group should'nt be able to survive long without following it. The healing needs of a party of adventurer has been mentioned as an exemple. People just say they rely on potions of healing of wands. Those cost a lot to buy. A group of characters spending all his money on healing will come up short when comes time to buy magic weapons or utility items for exemple. Since, once again, the game is conceived with a given wealth level per level of characters, the group will run into some trouble sooner or later (maybe they'll be killed by some lycanthrope because they didn't have the cash to buy silver weapons, having spent it all on healing devices). I think the DM in those games must do some heavy adjustments to his quests, or the players are choosing a very specific adventure location and stick to it (for exemple, a group of rogues playing exclusively in a urban environment could have good chances of surviving), in order to increase the character's survival chances. I'm not saying it's bad or good. D&D is a very customizable game. But I want to enforce the point that the whole game is designed around the party roles concept (particularly the monster's CR, which affects experience, which affects everything else, including wealth, etc...), and that by not following it, you are either: - Forcing the DM to adjusts things heavily in favor of the party - Forcing the party to limit its adventuring options - Risking to have the group die when they face a situation for which they don't have any of the basis covered I think this would be particularly evidenced if some of the groups were to run pre-made adventures. I'd be curious to hear about the succes rate of groups that aren't following this pattern.
RadicalTaoist 05-21-07, 01:29 PM	Eclipse Inquisitives ran both Shadows of the Last War and Whispers of the Vampire's Blade, Eberron published adventures. No PC fatalities and no fights we had to run from in either. I can give more details if you'd like; I'd need to go over our session logs, though. Now, I don't necessarily think that the 4 boxes is an essential element to cooperative play in D&D. Why should the PCs have *those* particular weaknesses and strengths, every time? Why not up front melee characters who are resistant to Will-saving throw effects rather than Fort-saving throw effects? Do the strengths and weaknesses of the party have to come in those four general packages?
Antioch 05-21-07, 01:48 PM	Honestly I've never really EVER had a party with the four "standard" classes, post 2nd Edition (even then, it was a party of three). In the last game I played in, we were a party of six: Human fighter Elf fighter/wizard/spellsword Halfling ranger (a spell-less variant) Half-drow rogue/wizard/ranger/assassin Half-orc rogue Gynosphinx diviner/mage of the arcane order/geometer. Half of the party were new players (namely the half-drow that pathologically kept snagging seemingly random classes). From levels 1-11 we lacked a cleric, until another player hopped in with a scout/cleric build (roughly half and half). We were able to survive thanks to sheer numbers and tactics. The fighter would fight defensively most of the time, and took 5 ranks in Tumble despite his inability to use them because he was pretty much always in heavy armor post 4th level. The ranger would zip around the field of battle with his dog/animal companion, duel wielding his cute lil finessed shortswords. The rogue would always try to flank with the fighter, ranger, or dog (sometimes more than one). Really, who was tag-teaming who varied from battle to battle. The sphinx would dart around the field of battle slapping on buffs onto the party as needed (I wanted to play a wizard that didnt blast, but was more focused on buffing and divination magic), while the elf would fail to cast spells on a routine basis (he insisted that despite having a more wizard levels than fighter levels, that he should still wear heavy armor and use a shield). As for healing, we went through a lot of healing potions of various types, and had a wand of cure light wounds that we used for emergency situations. Otherwise we were glad to have plenty of overland travel in that game (it would take several weeks to get from a town to, say, a swampland where we had to search for something). This allowed us to recuperate with some regularity. The DMs also adopted a houserule where if our characters ate well, they would heal slightly faster. I am in the process or running Age of Worms with a party of five: Human warblade Half-drow bard Human fighter/dread necromancer Kalashtar ardent/cleric Tiefling rogue This one more closely follows the "standard four". Tactics are fairly straightforward, though the ardent/cleric tends to hang back and blast enemies with energy rays, and the dread necro prefers to zap with ray of enfeeblement and crap out the occasional summon undead III.
GnomeBarbarian 05-21-07, 02:18 PM	The game that I have been playing for about 2 years now, only one fits into the basic 4 and he doesn't even do it that well. One char isn't from the start..I actually died not to long ago. We are all 10th level. Human Wizard/Sorceror/Ultimate Magus: Our generic "Arcane" spell caster. One of best pure Arcane Casters that I have ever seen. He however fits into one of the boxes as he does tend to stay a little far back and blow thigns up. Half-Elf Ranger/Deepwood Sniper(house variant of 3.0): Does not fit into any of the 4 boxes descrbed. Not a front line fighter but can dish out damage like there is no tomorrow. Human Monk: Our "Melee" fighter. However I don't believe he fits into the general idea of a turn melee fighter...He isn't close to the tank.. staying in battle to long wears him out pretty good. Next my pride and joy-----> Beguiler/Mindbender: My absolute favorite character ever. He fills so many roles for the party it is crazy. He can sneak and hide better than a rogue with the ability to become invisible and silencing himself. He has skill points like crazy (6 +Int). He has crazy illusion spells which allow him to a giant distraction to help out our monk melee fighter in combat. Ontop of that he regular has 3-5 Charmed Monsters/Enternally Charmed Creatures. Another help on the fighting front. We work very well as a team and thats what matters. If the monk gets low on health we have monsters/illusiosn to help out. If we need to get away fast between me and the mage we can get people moving((expeditious retreat/haste or my favorite the mage flys away fast and casts regroup.)) Although we can still jsut barely keep up with the monk. How I feel is that you don't have to each fall into a perfect niche but you just need to work together and have fun.
SephDragoon 05-21-07, 02:37 PM	Well, I haven't followed this thread in a while, but considering an upcoming battle, which pits our current 3 man party against an army, we all decided it was best to have backup characters prepared. We came up with a party together, and created what we feel is the single most unified group that synergizes with each other we could have created. The first is my backup, Shadow Feral Human, Ninja/Cleric/Daggerspell Priest (homebrew variant on daggerspell mage and shaper). He functions a little bit as the healer, which is new for me, but is mostly the speedy spring attacker. The second is Steve's, Half Brass Dragon Human, Monk/Swordsage/Shadow Sun Ninja. With the ability to resist constitution damage, he becomes a menace with his flurries and other extra attacks. In essence, he can drain someone dry in a matter of rounds. He is our big guy, tank. the third is Justin's (my little brother), Half Storm Elemental Raptoran, Druidic Avenger/Scout/Stormlord. He's our ranged fighter, hurling javelins like you wouldn't beleive. He literally just can't be stopped. He's able to move quickly and still get full attack actions, so he gets lots of skirmish damage. He's our archer in essence. This party doesn't have an arcane caster, nor do we want one. All characters have high wisdom (and bonuses to AC from wisdom), the lowest move speed is mine, at 75ft movement. We all have max ranks in hide and move silently, and can in one way or another turn invisible at will. Two of us share trapfinding responsibilities, all of us share spot and listen, and we all share various social skills, and all of us have maxed ranks in Sense Motive. The party moves as one, fights as one, all come from the same Monestary. And are all themed the same, after a mythical beast. Mine is Hellcat, Steve's is Dragon, and Justin's is Kirin. If our current characters die... we really want to play these. They will be quite interesting to pull of.
gundarc 05-21-07, 02:41 PM	I was just wondering how many of these groups started at lvl 1? I think that at lower levels, ticking all of the "boxes" might help new players acclimatise and such, but as we all know in 3.5 you can branch out from the standard character "classes" and create your own and still do any particular role within a group, that you want to. As a guideline I think it works, but hell do what you want and have fun!
SiCK_Boy 05-21-07, 02:59 PM	RadicalTaoist: You're right. It's not the fact that characters have those particular flaws that force cooperative play, but the fact that they all have specific flaws (gameplay speaking), period. And it's not automatic, I'd agree, but it strongly helps... But if you wanted to change some aspects of that (your exemple of fighters with high will saves), you'd need to change many things to balance out your game. Again, it comes back to the way the game is designed: it takes into account the fact that fighters have strong fortitude save, and low will save. And it's designed in that way. Sure, some changes might have minor effects on game balance, but chances are it'd have multiple effects you just didn't think about at first. I'm not defending the actual 4 boxes system we have. I would'nt care if fighters got good will save and wizards bad ones, so long as the game is built to integrate it. But I think you need such a system when designing a game like D&D, or else everyone will only play the "best" character, always. And again, I'm not saying people can't play with groups falling outside this paradigm, but I believe it then takes more efforts on the part of the DM in designing adventures fitted for the group, and more efforts from the players in order to survive a wide range of situations, when they don't follow the general 4 boxes. And to add to what gundarc just said: sure, you can multiclass and get a wide range of options, but the 4 boxes general idea is always behind all those options. Same goes with prestige classes, most of them are designed with a base class in mind. A character starting as a wizard could multiclass as a fighter and attempt to become a tank, but he'd need some time and some levels in order to really fill his role. (At least reaching twice as much fighter levels as he had wizards level before multiclassing, if not more). That's the eternal conflict between specialty and versatility.
nimrodii 05-21-07, 03:29 PM	Int the second game I ever ran the party consisted of Half-Orc Barbarian Orc Barbarian Human Barbarian w/intermediate stormgiant bloodline Human Divine Bard w/minor vampire bloodline Gnome Bard Human Savage Bard Elf Fighter(Archer) Human Paladin came in a few sessions later Human Monk added much later They stared as the Bardbarian party Of course with my record as a DM I did kind of kill a few of them and it then the party did later approach the boxes Half-orc barbarian died became a human cleric devoted to Chaos eventually got a hold of the warp sword from BoVD and swung it at everything he had the chance to. Orc barbarian died became an elf Samurai Twf madness with vorpal blades Gnome bard disappeared after fathering a couple of children with other party members Archer died became a wizard Divine Bard died became an anthropormorphic donkey monk for a time just so he could yell "Donkey Punch" later became a halfling caster of some sort.
Shiftkitty 05-21-07, 04:02 PM	Ran a campaign for the looooooongest time that consisted of 1 elven fighter and 1 human (and decidedly anti-elf) wizard. They were the start of what became a large core group of players, but at first, like for a couple of years' worth of weekends, they were it. They were also verrrrrry creative... I'd love to get these guys (a pair of brothers) back together under the 3e rules, but Stormy the Elf decided to go get married (to my best friend from high school) and I wound up marrying the wizard. Hmm, almost sounds like it should be on some Jerry Springer-type show: "I Married My DM"
Astron the Wizard 05-21-07, 04:15 PM	Everyone in my gaming group (including me) definitily doesn't like the classic party. We've played practically every oter kind of group imaginable. All rouges, all divine, all arcane, all fighters, half-divine and half arcane, half-rogues and half-fighters, all rangers, all psions, etc. Cant' think of any exact examples at the moment.
The Eye of Kyi 05-21-07, 05:05 PM	This topic has come up in our gaming group a few times. We are currently a DM and 3 players. I am currently running them through the Shackled City AP and it has been my experience that running the adventure more or less as is pretty much requires a grouping of characters that fall into the 4 boxes. Though in my humble opinion for this campaign the least needed is the Rogue type. Could it be done without sticking characters into the four boxes? Probably, but it would require some serious thinking out of the box by the players, and some hired talent in the form of NPC's, which ultimately puts you back into the 4 boxes. I think unless the DM is willing to make heavy adjustments to a published adventure or campaign you really need to have representation from the 4 core classes. There is an interesting bit at the end of Complete Warrior that I bet most people have missed out on and that is a an all fighter campaign suggestion. When I first read this I thought "what a cool idea!" For my next campaign I am planning on asking the players what classes they really want to play regardless of "party balance" as long as they can all get along as characters. (For example, if everyone else wants to play LG paladins, one person better not decide to be an assassin or a necromancer or what have you). Then based on what classes they want to play I will write the encounters for the campaign. This way I can tailor the campaign to what they want to play without requiring the use of the "4 boxes".
Stormonu 05-21-07, 05:24 PM	Well, I've got more than 4, but we've been playing with: Half-orc Druid (of the Dragon)* 7 (refuses to heal, and eats the dead party members. Great incentive NOT to get yourself killed) Elf Wizard 8/Acolyte of the Skin 1 (latter class from an in-game curse) **Raptorian Cleric (of Air) 6 (now dead) Human Fighter 7 (with a "fix" in place) half-fey Illumian Warlock 6 (now dead) * Using variant abilities out of Dragon Magic ** This character replaced the group's previous rogue The party recently lost two characters (just a session ago) to Strahd Von Zoravich. Up until this time, they'd been doing pretty good; Ravenloft is just killing them (literally) The group's fighter can pretty much lay low any opponent they come across, so the wizard hands most of the non-combat problems with the aid of the other characters. Healings a problem, so the group tends to be very careful about the fights and situations they do get themselves into. By the way, it's a pirate game with a lot of cohort/followers in the group helping them to run their 2-ship armada. This has really been one of the funnest and different campaigns I've had in quite a while.
RadicalTaoist 05-21-07, 06:38 PM	RadicalTaoist: You're right. It's not the fact that characters have those particular flaws that force cooperative play, but the fact that they all have specific flaws (gameplay speaking), period. And it's not automatic, I'd agree, but it strongly helps... I appreciate your civility in this little aside so far. That said, I'm not sure if your points follow. But if you wanted to change some aspects of that (your exemple of fighters with high will saves), you'd need to change many things to balance out your game. Again, it comes back to the way the game is designed: it takes into account the fact that fighters have strong fortitude save, and low will save. And it's designed in that way. Sure, some changes might have minor effects on game balance, but chances are it'd have multiple effects you just didn't think about at first. Not necessarily. First order of business, there needs to be some work done to save the Old Four from a number of encounters already. Creatures with extreme mobility (burrow speed, flight, ethereal jumping, teleportation, or just a great Tumble bonus) that can get to the wizard will just tear the Old Four apart. If they can occupy the mage, the old party design is just not suited to counter even with more recently designed tanks like the crusader. Meanwhile, how are the parties not dependant on a static defense doing? In FWSM, the active defense Liam puts out is much more effective, as he can chuck enemies left and right, forcing them to expend vital actions getting back to the soft spots - and Liam's probably as mobile as they are. On top, Ethan is a solid mobile offense both at close and long ranges, and can seek and destroy rather effectively. No matter what role she's in, Xek is never going to be in trouble as she's as mobile as the brothers. In short, we can tie up mobile foes, and if they decide to focus on the rest of us instead of Dayvid, he's gone. A few illusions, a Mirror Image, a Transposition - that and more can make our party illusionist untouchable. As for Eclipse, our 'mage' isn't a weak spot - Angela is tough, protected by DR, and recently picked up the ability to fly. Torrin's arguably a weaker spot, and he is both mobile and capable of stealthy defense and painful counterattack. 'Rosse has an astronomical Jump score and is generally very mobile; he can move around and beat the merry hell out of anyone Angela ties down with powers or constructs. Lehath isn't the most mobile, but if the foes aren't immune to mind-affecting powers, he won't need to be. If they are, he can patiently wait for the other party combatants to push an enemy in his direction. Encounters dependent on mobility is just one example; there are other cases where the Old Four need help to be capable in an encounter whereas alternative parties do fine because they didn't make the assumption that the Rogue should be the only nonmagically mobile character. Not to say anything about the balance of Fighters or Wizards or Clerics (for other threads) - it's just that like any strategy, the Old Four approach of static defense around a spellcasting core has strengths and weaknesses. This leads to the second order of business. You don't actually need to cover all the same strengths and same weaknesses to encourage cooperative play and maintain balance. They can overlap or expand; it just means the party develops a signature combat style. Take FWSM, where everyone is pretty mobile; or Eclipse, where everyone has good Will saves and almost everyone has good Fort saves. We adjust our approaches according to the opponent. This actually doesn't require as much work as you think. Like I said before, we ran through Whispers of the Vampire's Blade fairly safely. No instances where we were sorely incapable of handling the challenge before us, and no encounters we absolutely steamrolled without some luck (we did get really lucky against certain ogres, but they were vulnerable to Lehath's mind-affecting powers anyways, so we didn't need to be). I'm not defending the actual 4 boxes system we have. I would'nt care if fighters got good will save and wizards bad ones, so long as the game is built to integrate it. But I think you need such a system when designing a game like D&D, or else everyone will only play the "best" character, always. And again, I'm not saying people can't play with groups falling outside this paradigm, but I believe it then takes more efforts on the part of the DM in designing adventures fitted for the group, and more efforts from the players in order to survive a wide range of situations, when they don't follow the general 4 boxes. But the game already is built to integrate it. It's more flexible than you imply - if it wasn't, our DM would have had to do a lot more work to make our published adventures viable, or we would have wrecked the adventures. Neither was the case, and that's just my experience - others are recounting the same. I'm not sure what you mean by the "best" character; I don't think there is one (barring a kobold that everyone knows better than to mention). But D&D doesn't 'need' the 4 Boxes to be enjoyable at all. To argue it does from any balance perspective would be circular. 'Why are the 4 Boxes the ideal balance point D&D was designed for?' 'Because, lots and lots of adventures and modules were designed for a party built that way.' 'Well, why were the adventures and modules designed that way?' 'Because it made sense to write them for a party consisting of characters that fit the 4 Boxes.' You see? In short, 'roles' are artificial. What a party needs to do is complete certain tasks. The roles created by the 4 Boxes are merely a way of assigning tasks within four PCs ('Okay, you take the task of delivering damage and controlling the battlefield in the melee range, as well as being resistant to HP attrition and Fort save effects. You, you get to be mobile and disarm traps...'). That's not the only way to assign tasks within a party. It's not the best way, it's not the most balanced way, and it's not necessarily the way you should play. And to add to what gundarc just said: sure, you can multiclass and get a wide range of options, but the 4 boxes general idea is always behind all those options. Same goes with prestige classes, most of them are designed with a base class in mind. A character starting as a wizard could multiclass as a fighter and attempt to become a tank, but he'd need some time and some levels in order to really fill his role. (At least reaching twice as much fighter levels as he had wizards level before multiclassing, if not more). That's the eternal conflict between specialty and versatility. Multiclassing doesn't really make a difference here; classes are only one kind of character feature that can be manipulated to make a character fit a role or achieve a task.
Kamin_Majere 05-21-07, 06:39 PM	We only have 3 people in our group but i dont think its quite typical. We have me, i play the rogue specialized in dagger throwing, i'm good at it but i dont have a very good melee ability We have my wife, who is a druid specilizing in tripping thing with whips We have my cousin, who is playing a jester (from dragon mag) Thats really it. So far we've went about 3 chapters into the Cormyr Shattering of the Weave adventure and total we've been hit for like 26 damage between all of us (with my cousin taking the most with 18 in one shot)
Tempest Stormwind 05-21-07, 07:22 PM	Well, in truth, RT, our DM for Eclipse DID make a few adjustments to the published adventures he's run. However, they were not motivated by our power or lack thereof. In Whispers, one of the setpiece encounters involves warforged raiders attacking the lightning rail. We game over OpenRPG, so he needed a miniature for the raiders and their leader, Scimitar. I obliged, whipping up a simple warforged solider mini (http://telusplanet.net/~sdupuis/Tempest/Eberron/Whispers/WarforgedSoldierMini.png) and a more dramatic warforged face mini (http://telusplanet.net/~sdupuis/Tempest/Eberron/Whispers/BonusWarforgedFaceMini.png) for the leader. This was a few weeks after the Tome of Battle had come out, and the DM informed me that he felt the leader's mini was so awesome, he had to change him from a simple low-level fighter. He changed him into a warblade as a result. Taking him down proved to be a rather difficult challenge, but that speaks more to our DM's skill at optimization (He's a CO board regular when he can access WotC) than it does to our weaknesses) and the general weakness of that particular fighter in the published adventure (he was done so poorly that if he'd been used that way, he'd never have had a chance to deliver some of his more telling lines... and this is an EBERRON game. Since when is delivering more catchy one-liners NOT a good thing?). He did indeed go down, again due to creative thinking (Angela Time Hopped him while the more mobile pair in the team quickly scoured the rest of the cars, clearing out his soldiers (the halfling privateers from that adventure were taken care of earlier: Angela, being from House Ghallanda and having spent time on the Plains, new exactly what to say to drive them off without a fight (lucky roll on a Diplomacy check). In the lull granted by the Time Hop, Lehath and one of Angela's newly-created constructs both readied actions to beat the living daylights out of Scimitar as soon as he reappeared. They did).You are correct in the rest of your assessment, though. Some encounters will utterly decimate the Old Four (mobile opponents, hidden/covered archers, etc). Some encounters are built to be beaten by the Old Four (countless adventures written to be played by the Old Four come to mind; likewise I'm reasonably certain a warforged titan could be bypassed by Old Four without too much of a hassle). Similarly, those same encounters that slaughter the Old Four could be easily beaten by other parties, irrespective of their balance to each other*. On a related note, foes the Old Four would have no problem with might prove worthy adversaries against those unusual parties.** The game only seems balanced in such a way to require the Old Four... because a lot of it was written AFTER the Old Four were considered the benchmark. Hell, even the PHB2 flat-out admits that you can be more effective than Fighter/Cleric/Wizard/Rogue by using Cleric/Cleric/Wizard/Rogue or Druid/Cleric/Wizard/Rogue or Druid/Druid/Wizard/Rogue. Still thinking in terms of parties of four, but changing the composition somewhat. *Even against mobile foes, FWSM's "active defense" and mobile offense take out opponents no matter how mobile they are while protecting the team's squishy wizard -- and they do their job so well, I might add, that said wizard has only been hit TWICE over the course of five months worth of gaming: once when we were caught completely unawares by long-reaching elementals, and once when we were isolated in different rooms (I'd have to check the logs; I believe we were also outnumbered. Even if we weren't, splitting the group up with walls in close quarters is essentially the same as having a numeric advantage). (I admit this is slightly skewed, as the DM doesn't have a lot of ranged attackers in the game; if archers were more common Dayvid would have to put a bit of effort into his defense.) A classic Old Four party in these circumstances can do very little unless you're high enough level for the wizard to be causing game balance concerns. A highly mobile foe can dance around a typical warrior, meaning he can't occupy it, and can likely dish out enough offense to pose a serious threat to the wizard. A rogue can likely keep up with it, but a single rogue in solo combat isn't all that effective. The wizard might be able to keep up with it and can definitely lock it down, so a smart mobile foe tackles the wizard first. A cleric suffers the same mobility problems with the fighter; while good clerics can Hold things, a smart mobile assault creature causes so much mayhem in the Old Four that the cleric is likely forced to choose between a Hold (or similar effects) that might not work or saving the life of a teammate. **A warforged titan recently gave a rather unusual challenge to Eclipse, as Elerosse and Lehath had no weapons that could breach its DR and Torrin had no means of damaging it whatsoever (Note to self: Build explosive packs. Angela had experience making alchemical weaponry during the Last War, and Torrin's commando-style approach means planting a bomb and running would suit his style of play well), while its energy resistances and large size made anything other than constructs from Angela a waste of time. We did eventually beat it down by pinning it in place with a huge construct, giving Elerosse the chance he needed to Combat Rhythm the thing into oblivion. A classic Old Four party would have likely had an adamantine weapon by this point (level 9) or at least some way of dealing with DR, not to mention enough magical support from the wizard and cleric that it could probably be shut down from a distance. A simple Grease spell (which nearly every wizard should have some means of casting at nearly all times) would have immobilized it -- and while such a thing DOES exist in psionics, our party "mage" (Angela) doesn't know it.
aotrscommander 05-21-07, 08:01 PM	I have to say, our groups are pretty unimaginative! That said, all four of our five major 3.5 campaigns (two of mine and two of two other DMs) started in 3.0 (and one in 2nd!) We do tend to follow the big four - but only to a point, since our average party size is 6, not four. The cloest we've come to breaking the mold was with the Evil Five, who came because for several months we were going to be down to three players. The characters originated from NPCs I had fought in the DM's campaign with the other gaming group, where they were destined mirrors of the Good Five. Ironically, we started as only three (two of the NPC were well beyond sensible for PCs). The DM built us up to start with, laid some guidelines where he wanted us to go (for consistency, this was the 'prequel' if you like, but bsically said we could go where we liked. For about the first half of the campaign, we consisted of: Tanavark (Psionic Warrior, from the mysterious far west (me), flippantly titled Samurai Flapjack by the DM) Valdemar (Cleric/Fighter/Pious Templar/Blackguard) The Pious Templar was at the DMs behest; Valdamar as we orignally fought him was a Cleric/Pious Templar I believe. the player wnated to go to Black Guard, though (hence Fighter for the feats!)) Dumaar (Rogue/Assassin) Thus, we were sorely under-gunned in the magic department (level 3 cleric spells don't go very far, and Tanavark's powers were all self-buffs.) The party's arcane knowledge rested soley in Tanavarks awesome cross-class Knowledge (Arcana). We were alright for traps, but aside from hitting things, our options were a tad limited. When it came to outdoors stuff, we failed, and Dumaar was the only one with anything resembling Charisma, and he didn't put much into his social skills. Still we managed, and later were joined by a Wizard and Druid (thank frag, since we ended up fighting shed-load of demons, which rendered Dumar's stealth irrelevant, degraded mine and Valadmar's effectiveness significantly (he in particular was crying for some Good targets!)) The other 3.5 party of note, which has so far had one session was on the newest campaign world, using up-to-date rules. I encouraged the players to have free reign. I got: Psyhic Warrior 6 Duskblade 6 Psion 6 Unicorn (homebrew monster class)4 /Dragon Shaman 2 Swordsage 6 Warlock 6 Ardent 6 A fairly heavy melee combatant group. While the psion is a blaster role (the player doesn't play often, so I a) didn't want to burden him with complacations and b) there aren't so many utility powers for psions). The party is light on healing (the unicorn's native Lay on Hands is it). The party is also quite light on skills. The Warlock has Walk Unseen and only he and the swordsage have any ranks in Hide and Move Silently; the Warlock makes a fairly poor count due to his lack of Spot and listen and the fact Wisdom was his dump stat! The party doesn't have many utility options, either. Though they're passable for ranged combat, they aren't great (which can be a problem since the world is fairly flight-enemy-heavy!) And don't send them out into the wilderness, since they've got no tracker (though both Unicorn and Duskblade have passable outdoor skills!) As face-wise...what face? Cha was mostly a dump stat (save for the Unicorn, who gets big racial boosts), so they can't talk their way out of situations (not that our collective mindset does that very often anyway!) Still, they are in a war-time era, so the kick-the-front-door-in does at least have merit. But I had to think hard about the heck I could do with them! Okay, so neither is especially breaking the mold, but it's the best we've got!
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-21-07, 08:34 PM	2 archer Rogues and a TWF Rogue and a buff and trip oriented Bard are a nasty, nasty thing in action. The alpha strike at level 3 comes to around 18d6+ With the archers using rapid shot, the bard inspiring courage followed by a trip and the TWF taking brutal advantage of the bonus to attacking prone. The bard provides healing, buffs and invisiblities and the rogues UMD anything they personally need.
tl 05-22-07, 05:14 PM	two parties of notice: Favored soul human (clean class; self buffs, now and then a Comet fall) PsyWar maenad (clean class; self buffs, focus-related feats) Druid/Nature's Warrior/Warshaper dwarf (octopus form with it's tentacles) 'cause DM usually makes the campaign after the character creation, there were no dungeons and no traps (except for once, when PsyWar sat on chair and got teleported without equipment in the middle of zombies...). the other one is far more interesting for this topic: being in rashemen, hathrans are on; full-caster cleric (going for hathran) wizard human (going for hathran) sorcerer human (elemental savant)/replaced by full-caster druid human (going for hathran) ninja human (useless, going for homebrew PrC) Wolf-totem Barbarian Goliath (Spiked Chain tripper) we've just hit 8th level and it all goes well, except when I'm not there (I'm the goliath). all casters are female, and they really enjoy making everything complicated, so after 10 minutes of arguing whose necklace is the one we just found, I go for sport/suicide climbing. they touch the dead hand, zombies come. lousy turning (lousy Cha + desecrate or unhollow) and if I wasn't at the table and heard what's going on and decided my character has enough climbing, it would have been a clean wipe. now, general talk: there are roles, there are classes and there are boxes. thinking you need to fill the boxes to succeed is stupid. thinking you can survive in a normal quest with leaving open roles is stupid. yeah, casters are all great and clerics/druids can tank, but that makes the role filled. a party without a tank can do completely fine in a quest where DM knows your limitations and adjusts. as in my example, full-caster/rouge party can't survive an undead ambush. they could wipe this zombies from a mile away, but once there's a zombie in the middle of your group, there are little other options the swift fly. ups, a dungeon celling. bye bye, hathran... :weep:
WolfHati 05-22-07, 07:40 PM	Of course, a full caster/rogue party should not get ambushed ever if they are smart about it. There's not a one who can't turn invisible, or sneak, and all have high spot/listen checks or detection spells. Wizards can dimension door and rogues can tumble fairly reliably, even if they do get caught in close quarters. There's always more than one way to do things. If you aren't good at melee combat, you can be good at avoiding melee. If you don't have much healing, you can focus on tripping up opponents so you rarely take damage. One of the campaigns I'm in has changed party composition a great deal over the course of the adventure, though there's only been 1 in combat fatality, the rest being story related--people leaving the campaign, etc. Never once did we have a group approaching an ordinary make-up. Currently I think we have a monk, a sorcerer, and artificer, a fighter, a fighter/rogue, and a barbarian/ranger. Generally a kill them hard before they kill us group... though half the group has decent stealth skills, well almost all if you count invisibility, so there is definitely room for planning and tactics. The other campaign that I am in looks more like a standard group with a monk, a rogue, a druid, and a mage. Somehow it doesn't seem to play like an "ordinary" group though, as a monk does a whole lot more stunning/disarming/tripping and general running around than a fighter would to control the battle, and the druid doesn't really do much in-combat healing, mostly just control/blasting spells.
Link182 05-22-07, 11:54 PM	Hmm, my first long running campaign (2e) had a Cleric, Fighter/Rogue, Rogue, Ranger. the next one, thats now epic (2e into 3.5e) is actually pretty balanced with a Sorcerer/Shadow Adept, Druid, Favored Soul, Fighter, Fighter, Wizard/Incatatrix NPC Now I'm running a wierd one with a Samuri/Ronin, Knight, Dragon Shaman, Sorcerer, Monk, Rogue/Assassin, Warmage/Swashbuckler/Spellblade
MerlintheTuna 05-23-07, 12:43 AM	2 archer Rogues and a TWF Rogue and a buff and trip oriented Bard are a nasty, nasty thing in action. The alpha strike at level 3 comes to around 18d6+ With the archers using rapid shot, the bard inspiring courage followed by a trip and the TWF taking brutal advantage of the bonus to attacking prone. The bard provides healing, buffs and invisiblities and the rogues UMD anything they personally need.Psst. Tripped foes are harder for your archers to hit.
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-23-07, 12:58 AM	Psst. Tripped foes are harder for your archers to hit. You're messing up the sequence. It's: shot, shot, trip, melee so the melee rogue gets a bonus. There is little reason to believe that most trippable opponents will be alive to require anymore shots after the alpha strike.
tl 05-23-07, 04:18 PM	You're messing up the sequence. It's: shot, shot, trip, melee so the melee rogue gets a bonus. There is little reason to believe that most trippable opponents will be alive to require anymore shots after the alpha strike. seems you don't fight giants often... general talk: if we say that the ability to escape from any battle that you can't win is considered ok, then clean class ninja can basiclly do it alone. at the beginnning she goes invisble, after that she goes ethereal plus she got Tumble through the roof. but somehow running from more then 1 in every, let's say, 20 (?) battles doesn't seem got to me. sure, you survive and come back when you're ready, but come on. is that D&D as we love it? :P
EvilVegan 06-24-07, 12:18 PM	The longest running campaign I've played recently was a 2 year campaign that consisted of the following: Barbarian (pretty much straight) Druid (fast-movement monk AC, no wildshape variant) Favored Soul (dwarf warrior of moradin themed) Cleric/Radiant Servant/Human Paragon (VoP healer until 20th when an artifact made her start acting more like a tank). Eventually the barbarian player left the group and it was just a divine trio. Up until 20th the party dynamic was strange, having a vow of peace character travelling with a barbarian (which eventually led to my character losing her vow of peace, thanks to a coup de grace from the barbarian after a subdual spell she cast). Had no trouble due to lacking an arcanist or a rogue, we'd just tank through any traps and had plenty of utility spells thanks to domains, wands, and varied spell lists. We had a lot of drop tactics, one of which took out a CR 27 red dragon in 1round. It was a while ago, but I know it involved a teleportation or crazy high fly speed, a save debuff from the druid (maybe a quillblast), and my cleric casting that exalted spell that traps a soul for a year and makes them change alignment. 1 on a will save, 20 on a SR check. Good times. But yes in gameplay, druid + cleric + favored soul = win.
Ringmereth 06-24-07, 01:11 PM	So far, my group has tended towards filling the four boxes, but since our average size is about six players, there's definitely room to only partially fill a role and leave some for another player. However, some friends of mine are running an all-rogue game right now, which I hear is going rather well. The bit I have to add to this discussion is in regard to the assertion that the only indespensible role is that of the healer (whether a divine caster or a UMDer with lots of wands). In a normal D&D game, with plenty of combat, it holds true. However, there's a great workaround for this: the wound points/vitality points system found in Star Wars d20 and UA. To put it simply, lost vitality points are nicks and scratches and getting winded, while lost wound points represent actually getting hurt. Vitality points regenerate fast, wound points don't. With a few tweaks to the system, D&D can accept this modification without much trouble, and it allows a smart party to take plenty of combat without having to heal, as well as adding some real drama and concern when someone is actually hurt by lost wound points.
Sunic_Flames 06-24-07, 01:37 PM	So far, my group has tended towards filling the four boxes, but since our average size is about six players, there's definitely room to only partially fill a role and leave some for another player. However, some friends of mine are running an all-rogue game right now, which I hear is going rather well. The bit I have to add to this discussion is in regard to the assertion that the only indespensible role is that of the healer (whether a divine caster or a UMDer with lots of wands). In a normal D&D game, with plenty of combat, it holds true. However, there's a great workaround for this: the wound points/vitality points system found in Star Wars d20 and UA. To put it simply, lost vitality points are nicks and scratches and getting winded, while lost wound points represent actually getting hurt. Vitality points regenerate fast, wound points don't. With a few tweaks to the system, D&D can accept this modification without much trouble, and it allows a smart party to take plenty of combat without having to heal, as well as adding some real drama and concern when someone is actually hurt by lost wound points. Hopefully said tweaks involve crits not being essentially instant death or dying status. Which is how the SW system works. High levels dropped in 1 hit from a random mook =/= heroic.
Board_Rider 07-23-07, 08:20 PM	As stated in another thread I never knew that four boxes were intended and that gameplay, with or with the each "box" checked, depended on the fun of the game. I think that typical parties are directly composed by two underlying factors: 1. What material is allowed 2. What players think they will need to be effective in the campaign If players want to play 4 clerics, and they think that it will be successful, then they will play 4 clerics. If they think that the Old Four is more effective, then they will play with the Old Four. I have found, personally, that the typical Fighter Type, Skill Type, Healer and Magic User party is far more durable than groups who break that mold. By no means is that the rule because there are factors that depend on any groups survivability: 1. Tactics 2. Gear and how ready they are for a given encounter 3. Rules knowledge 4. How well the DM knows the rules, his/her rules knowledge and tactic knowledge Usually, when the Typical Four are present, they can cover the basic needs of any particular encounter. But that is not always the given of course. Great topic.
SquashMonster 07-24-07, 04:36 AM	My current party is a party of five, but we barely cover all the standard bases. At level 5, we have a barbarian, a sneak-attack focused rogue, a monk (who's going for tripping), a dragon shaman, and a sorcerer who thinks he's a cleric (he casts only buffing and healing spells). From a tactical standpoint, I think the generic four boxes do an average job, but there's a lot of room above average. The best strategy in a fight is to end the fight as soon as possible. There are more ways to do this than you think. - Massive damage: Do damage to something until it falls over. The rogue/fighter party mentioned earlier here used this strategy to great effect. - Incapacitate: Do something that stops the enemy from fighting. D&D has lots of ways to do this -- just color spray, trip, and poison until nothing can move. - Tank: Don't be capable of being hurt. The fight is over as soon as it starts if your AC, damage reduction, or similar prevent you from taking damage. - Sneak: Don't get in a fight. It's a valid strategy. Running away counts too. Yeah, four boxes again, though they are different ones. But the interesting thing about these is, a party with one of each of these is going to be terrible. Sneaking past an enemy doesn't solve anything if only one guy can do it. Tanking doesn't either -- a smart enemy will kill your squishy mage first. Incapacitating enemies and dealing them damage can work together, but not very optimally -- they each need to target separate enemies or they'll step on each other's toes. The most efficient tactic is to just pick one. And not only is just picking one of these more efficient, it's also more interesting. Imagine a party of four sorcerers, one who does will saves, one who does reflex saves, one who does fortitude saves, and the last who does ability damage. These are so flavorful that everyone reading this already knows that the first one is an enchanter and the last is a necromancer. Even better, each of them will have their chance to shine at different times, despite all being the same class.
KurenaiYami 07-25-07, 04:06 AM	The first time me and my friends ever played, looking back, we were the typical four without even realising it. I was a Fighter, the others were a Wizard, Cleric, and Rogue. It was a fun game, but we haven't used the typical 4 since.
Voran 07-25-07, 04:12 AM	Ultimately I gather its up to how willing your DM is to adjust things to suit or 'not curbstomp' an atypical grouping. DnD gaming thankfully has none of the 'balancing' mechanics MMORPGs do to prevent certain specialized groups, so you could theoretically have a 'massive DPS' group, forgoing healing or magic in exchange for massive melee combat destruction. But such specialized or atypical groupings still largely depend on the DM not smacking you with something that potentially plays to your weaknesses.
Feredenil 07-25-07, 06:28 AM	I've never played that form. Most of my gaming exprience was either, me playing my druid with a Paladin (party of two) and other times parties with more than seven members at times, with rogues and bards and higher level druids than me and so on... I've had personal DMing and also been in a party with four 'all casters' Maybe I should try the form you say and see how it is, sometime ?
malignor 07-25-07, 01:46 PM	Current Game: Sorcerer, Barbarian, Bard, Druid The Bard can out-talk almost anything, and if it can't be out-talked, he instead resorts to his group buffs and enemy group debuffs, resulting in a deadly barbarian. Backup healer via CLW wands. The Sorcerer has astronomical damage output (has a home-made artifact that acts as a greater rod of Empower Spell, unlimited times, only with fire magic, and works in AMF). Since the Druid left the group (player got a new job with conflicting schedule), he's actually the HEALER, via Polymorph. The Barbarian (yours truly) sold out and dipped into Fighter for 2 levels. I also have been given an item that lets me make self-buffing tattoos as if I had limited access to the Ranger spell list (for buffs only, self only). Saved my butt a couple times. My mobility in the fights (50' w/ Longstrider, Spring Attack) lets me control the combat and assist whoever's in trouble. I actually handle all the traps... Trap Sense, high HP and big Fort saves means I can handle just about any trap a rogue can, simply by triggering the trap and surviving. The Druid... well he was a Druid. Loved turning into an inconspicuous animal and dropping spells like Flame Strike on the enemy. If that failed, he would SNA up a small army of wolves to assist attack with me, assist defend party members, or just surround and whittle down the enemy while controlling the combat zone with friendly creatures... it was like he was playing Go, using wolves and dire wolves as stones. He left a couple sessions ago (schedule conflict), so the Bard and Sorcerer are filling in with their diminished healing abilities. Pretty much every session, my DM complains that we're too powerful for our level. We've consistently defeated encounters of high CR without any losses yet to date (touch wood). Oh, and other than the custom items we have, we're quite equipment-poor (but cash rich). Near impossible to get magic gear in this world, and the DM banned Crafting feats. Rise and Fall Campaign: This one I'm DMing part 4 of, next. Part 1 was: Paladin, Ranger, Monk. They got wasted by a BoVD Thrall of Demogorgon who was 4 levels higher than the PCs, and had a truckload of animated dead and Dretches to back him up. These guys were tough. Used alot of environmental and situational advantages (shooting bow from cover, ambush, taking high ground, etc.). Part 2 was: Paladin, Ranger, Monk, Fighter. Same badguy separated and turned them into evil counterparts. Took a long time. Despite the lack of magic, the group was still very effective. Part 3 was: Fiendish Blackguard, Werewolf Ranger, Monk Ghost and his Half-Hezrou Troll Barbarian vessel (for the Monk's Malevolence), Adolescent Stone Giant Fighter and an Awakened Fiendish Boar Barbarian. This group was unstoppable. At ECL12 they crushed an ECL17 Trog Cleric, beat the ghost of a 20th level fighter using Malevolence on a Stone Giant and (later) an Ettin, and an ECL15 Werewolf Druid (who bit the Ranger). The fighter and monk got obliterated by an Epic Trog lich they disrespected. Part 4 will be: Fiendish Blackguard, Werewolf Ranger, Rogue/Sorcerer/ArcaneTrickster, Half-Hezrou Troll Barbarian (NPC), Sane Derro Bard and the Awakened Fiendish Boar Barbarian (NPC and foul-mouthed mascot). This is the part where they actually get magic gear beyond simple potions and weak wondrous items. I dread what they'll be able to do with the spellcasters in the party, and magic gear. Harbingers of Justice: This was a great campaign. We all can't wait till we start Part 2 of this one. VoP Monk: Our tank, believe it or not. His CON and WIS are really high, so he can take a beating and keep on bleeding. My fave it to use a wand of Enlarge Person on him to boost his Grappling and Tripping. Rogue: Pretty standard. She died and a Barbarian was made in her stead. Personally, I like the barbarian better. Cleric of War/Strength: Pretty standard Ranger/Sorcerer/Eldritch Knight: I was actually the primary tank for awhile, since my spells are primarily Buffs and combat enhancements. Used a Glaive and wore Armor Spikes (on my Mithral shirt) to cover my blind spots, and went a little crazy with the True Strike + Full 2handed PA attack move. Even now, at level 13, I'm a solid "hold em back" character, able to bail party members out of trouble, keep the enemy occupied without getting a scratch, and hand out some okay damage (which turns into awesome damage when they're weakened and I can go all-out). Share Spells is my friend, since I have both an animal companion and a familiar, which I employ extensively.
Inquisitor Tremayne 07-25-07, 03:52 PM	Our group has evolved over the few short years that we have been playing. When I joined the group we were: Elven Wizard 9 or 10 Gnome Bard 8 Human Cleric 7 (me) Our GM threw a lot of melee at us and we couldn't really hold our own, or I should say I couldn't so we had to hire npcs a dwarf fighter and when he died a human fighter. Then we added another player thus a new character: Half-elf Ranger 7 He quickly died. Thus creating: Halfling Rogue 7 This player quit the game but we have had 2 new folks join for a new party of: Elf Wizard 11 Human Cleric 8 (me) Gnome Bard 9 Half-Elf Paladin 8 Elf Rogue 8 The wizards player left and we got a new player with a new party of: Human Cleric 9 (me) Gnome Bard 9 Half-Elf Paladin 8 Elf Rogue 8 (some race from PHB II) Rogue/Sorcerer 7 What we realized is that our GM was throwing very difficult encounters at us because of this 11th level wizard who really didn't need us around to handle anything. With the wizard gone the encounters are more balanced and we have a pretty solid party now. I've always played the cleric as a fighter type, so her and the Paladin usually charge into melee first while the Bard boosts us with inspiration songs and the 2 rogues provide ranged fire. So far this tactic has worked well for us and we have only been playing like this for about a month.
littlekid 07-25-07, 04:59 PM	My DM very rarely lets the group discuss who's playing what with each other. That way, everyone decides alone what they want to play, so we aren't doing the 4 boxes.
JiCi 07-26-07, 07:55 PM	Here's what I got for players, for an Eberron Campaign: PCs: - anthropomorphic TIGER barbarian 4: the tank - anthropomorphic WOLF rogue 3: the skill user and ranged specialist - anthropomorphic WOLVERINE wilder 3: the blaster - anthropomorphic FOX sorcerer 4: the support caster - anthropomorphic PANTHER rogue 3: the melee sneaker - anthropomorphic CLAWFOOT druid 1/fighter 2: another tank and possible healer NPCs - anthropomorphic ELEPHANT fighter 2: yet another tank (reincarnate lost mount) I got 6 players plus 1 NPC, and unless my druid multiclass evenly to get healing spells, my party might not get any healer. Furthermore, they kinda use more their animalist nature than their class features. For instance, the wilder might claw and bite an opponent instead of mind thrusting it. Fortunately, we're doing fine at 7 around the table. Each came up with clever strategies, even if their lives were at risk. For example, the sorcerer enlarged a fellow werebear when they got outnumbered... to my surprise. At the beginning, they told me that each will pick what he/she would like to play as, regardless of class, and then told me not to go easy on them. I answered "Okay, fine by me. Impress me."
Kursk 07-26-07, 08:17 PM	But, see! You are taking four clerics and jamming them into the 4 boxes. Why not four heal-bots? Why not four High Priest types? I dream of running a party of all rogue types. That would be fun, challenging, and OUTSIDE the boxes. But alas, the players don't want to be sneaky... Study spec forces tactics & set up and you'll see why it's not a good idea for everyone in a group to be narrowly focused on the same skill set... Unless you like to roll new characters a lot...
Inspiru 07-29-07, 11:33 AM	I play in a party containing: Dwarf wizard 6 Elf cleric of Corellon 5 Orc barbarian 6 Gnome warlock 5 (me) We need no rogue. The cleric serves as backup warrior, and in dungeons, the barbarian's hp take care of the traps. (he has trapfinding, as a barbarian, but he never uses it)
Jezmund 07-29-07, 12:07 PM	A friend of mine DMd an Eberron game that was basically an espionage mission. Our party consisted of three rogues, and it was quite possibly one of the most fun games I've played in. Misdirection, forgery, lies, and intrigue. A very good time.
Lanoitakude 07-30-07, 02:22 AM	The homebrew campaign I've been DMing for about 4-5 years now consists of the following: Joseph - Human Psion (shaper) 17 Dante - Elan Psychic Warrior 18 Tessai - Human Psychic Warrior 16 Eerev - Hafling Rogue/Shadowdancer/Swordsage 17 (total) Eep - Human Warblade 16 (originally a Samurai from Complete War) This party dishes out crazy damage, and the three psionic characters can self-heal quite well. The Elan psychic warrior can get his AC upwards of 50 with a few rounds of prep, as well as being the primary damage dealer (usually dealing about 25-35 damage per swing). Each character in this group deals insane damage. It is an interesting group, and one that really doesn't fit the general roles. It can be a lot of fun to DM, because I can throw insane numbers of opponents at them.
StalkerEntreri 07-30-07, 03:02 AM	Fighter, Fighter, Rogue, Rogue. My group played this party for years and it was wonderful. All four party members rush the opponent down mercilessly, tripping and sneak attacking anything in its way into oblivion. At level 10 the addition of oppurtunist to the Rogues just sealed things up. I mean, I know it doesn't sound very innovative or anything, but considering how reliant most groups are on spells, it is friggin' brilliant in its own way. The characters were designed to win initiative and/or get surprise rounds so that the opponent would be dead or running before they could use any good abilities. The party could outpace any monster that relied on HP damage and save-or-screwed effects mean little when there is so much redundancy between party members (Man you paralyzed the rogue. Good thing we have a spare!). A few restorative and buffing items and a careful eye towards which commissions they selected and they were tight. Really, this group convinced me that spellcasters just aren't that fun. When you can't just bypass everything anything you want as a standard action the game is cooler. The Fighter Fighter Rogue Rogue seems like a good party, but I would like to see them take on a RageWalker from MM3, with a DC 28 or something Will save, or they all become crazy and attack whoever's closest, probably the fighters attacking eachother and the rogues doing the same...
NobodyRemembersThis 12-06-07, 10:57 AM	My group is not one for the roles, sad to say. (level 5) I've got a Ranger, a Sorcerer, and a Duid in the group. I essentally have 2 strikers and a controller. The ranger is a bow specialist, the sorcere specializes in ray spells, and the druid specializes in buffing her wolf, summons, and flame sphere. There is no trap monkey. The sorcerer has a bag of tricks though, so he pulls out furry animals and has the druid direct them down corridors. Tends to use a lot of detect magic and knock to search for traps. The party I play in is very odd. We have a Fey'ri Sorcerer (UA battle srocerer variant), a drow Ranger/Deepwood Sniper, an elf Druid, and a Aasimar Bard/Cleric/Radiant Servant. This is yet another group that is very heavy on the strikers and controllers. The Sorcerer uses its flight coupled with balor's Nimbus to grapple and fly away 'till the target dies. He mixes in some fire based spells and enchantment (Rebuke, Inhibit, Suggestion) if trying to stay out of melee. The Ranger is long distance death, and has the gear to average 15 damage per arrow, if not more (and very rarely misses). Definitely uses his mobility and SR to keep from getting squished. The Druid is all about direct damage, minimal buffs, and wildshape abuse. Huge fan of the eagle-turned-crocbomb to mix it up in melee after her spells are mostly depleted. Natural Spell and the vigor line of spells are her friend if she has to mix it up in melee. Then there's me. I buff the party, and handle the healing. Typically I start with a inspirational boost + Horn Inspire Courage (+3 hit, damage, saves vs charm, no fear bonus) that lasts for 10 rounds (feat bonus). I then cast sanctuary and wade in with healing Lorecall (to get rid of conditions when healing). I follow that up with enlarge, break the sanctuary, and begin fighting in combat. For healing, I rely on close wounds (immediate actions ftw) and the druid's spell that allows an extra attack in melee. of course, when it is versus the undead, I do all the work. ;) Even still, my job in combat is to draw attention while the 3 strikers flay everything. Outside of combat, the Aasimar and the Fey'ri serve as the faces for the party, while the druid uses her wand of summon nature's ally II to summon earth elementals that finds and disables traps. All things considered though, neither group has a "skills" character. We work just fine without it. The bard/cleric has proven himself nearly indestructable.
wizard of Newfoundland 12-06-07, 04:34 PM	Not sure if this is atypical enough or not but here it goes, the party I DM: Burny, Slashy, Holy, and Bard Tyrr (Burny): Elf Warmage 6/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2. Tyrr is probably the least stereotypical member of the party, enjoying melee combat as much as ranged spell slinging. Through judicious use of his Maneuvers, Arcane Wrath, and his trusty spellstoring longsword he has been able to dish out damage( sparingly) on par with the melee characters. His AC is decent but his hp isn't great (d6's and a low con) Jambagee (Bard): Gnome Bard 6/ Lyric Thaumaturge 2 The parties face, he usually starts combat with inspire confidence and then proceeds to met out debilitating enchantments to remove foes from the battle effectively. He is also the closest the party has to a cleric, busting out a healing spell here and there when its really needed. Jambagee has neigh on as much Hp as the melee characters but seldom gets hit as he prefers to work his mage from a distance. Also he is the only party member with UMD and has become the storage place for all spellcompletion magic gear to date, allowing him to break out a wand and deal some damage if the situation calls for it. Artemus (Slashy): Human Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/ Dervish 3 The quite type he is your typical cut through the ******** and get to the point type of guy. He is a master of tactical movement and with judicious use of the tumble skill has little difficulty getting where he wants to go (epically after a Haste from Jambage!) He wields dual scimitars and is capable of large amounts of damage with his high number of attacks/round. Unusual is that he has the highest Int in the party, a quiet genius perhaps? His Ac and Hp is the second highest in the party, second only to kelendril. Kelendril (Holy): Elf paladin 8 Wielder of the mighty blade Mirthuvial, Kelendril boasts the highest Hp and Ac of the party. Able to dish out decent damage (not as much as Artemus though) Kelendril's role is the Tank, absorbing attacks like a sponge in water. His damage has been known to get up there on times, usually after casting a pally spell. He is also the parties negotiator, with an outstanding Diplomacy modifer he has turned many people to his cause. The battle with Wyrmlord Savarith (spelling? i'm too lazy to get the module) After mindlessly slaughtering all but 1 lizardfolk (who escaped) and stealing one of their reed rafts the party set sail across lake Rest to the prominent bell tower looming up out of the waters. A short while after embarking their ears where rent by the sound of the bell ringing clear across the lake, at once they began to be assailed by arrows. The escapee had alerted the tower to their coming! The continued to paddle, none of the arrows finding their mark from this range, after traveling another 250ft their raft was upturned by the lizardfolk who had been summoned by the bell's peal. They devised a quick plan, Tyrr Fireballed the tower and Jambagee quaffed back a potion of fly, soaring into the skies. The plan was for them to swim within range of his Rod of Rope so he could pull them to safety. They made a mad dash for the tower, unfortunately for Kelendril his heavy full-plate caused him a lot of anguish. To make a long story short they all made it to the top (Jambagee dispatching the 1 surviving hobgoblin guard) except for Kelendril who was having a extremely difficult time in the water. The air was filled with a deafening roar as the wyrmlord himself rose, flying atop his draconic mount (young adult black dragon). The party (excluding poor Keledril) was blasted by a line of corrosive acid, dealing major damage. For a couple of rounds both parties exchanged arrows and spells, both sides taking heavy hits. Then Tyrr decides to make this a little more intimate, casting swift fly and boarding the black dragon! He lashed out at the wyrmlord with his spellstoring longsword hitting and discharging the shocking grasp contained within for an extra 5d6 damage. The wyrmlord, not at home at close range and not daring to draw his sword fired his bow in a attempt to dislodge Tyrr, who took the blow in stride. Kelendril, who had reached the summit of the tower the round before, fired his magic bow and landed the killing blow on the wyrmlord. At this point Jambagee decides to join Tyrr, flying across the gap to aid him. Both the melee characters pummeled the dragon with arrows, often being unable to beat its massive AC or DR. It was down to Tyrr and Jambagee to defeat it, Tyrr casting Poison and due to a horrid roll on my part the dragon failed dealing 7 points of Con damage. The dragon had sustained some damage prior to this and now was down to less then 1/3rd its original hp (almost 1/3 of it being drained in one shot with that poison spell). He decided to take this fight underwater, hoping to drown out his unwelcome visitors. He dived into the water, swimming through the lake at an impressive speed. Both the casters wailed on him with their weapons, being unable to cast underwater or give up. Tyrr decided to fuel his strikes with his Arcane Wrath ability, figuring his spells were useless down here anyways. Jambagee's dagger (although magical) was unable to inflict much damage against the beast. In the end it was the second poison effect that dropped the dragon, dealing an additional 3 points of Con damage. Both mages swam to the surface, victorious, only to see the bell tower swarming with lizardfolk. They rushed off to aid the comrades they left behind but by the time they had arrived Kelendril and Artemus had finished the job. Now to the building from which the dragon emerged....
Etarnon 12-07-07, 03:51 PM	I just take the player character I've been given, and run accordingly. 4 Rogues, it's a thieve's guild setup. 4 Fighter types it's a merc band. 4 Wizards it's a college of wizardry. 4 mixed classes, it's a typical dungeon or wherever they want to go.
Nadaka 12-07-07, 04:30 PM	4 of our 8 gamers didn't show up for the campaigns final game the other week. So the 3 players made up 1st level organically generated characters. We had a human bard, a human sorcerer and me a dwarven rogue (charisma 3!). We had no healing, and no tank. We fought a group of 3 kobolds, and I as acted as the tank (I had 10 hp thanks to an 18 con). I was knocked to 0hp and we retreated to town for a heal up. The next day, as we returned to the cave, we killed 4 or 5 orcs without taking a scratch and then faced a beast of immeasurable power. A bear. I managed to get a sneak attack in with my crossbow, then it critically hit me to negatives. The sorcerer managed to fail a color spray, and was knocked to 0 hp. Then the lowly first level bard managed to last two rounds (while the bear full attacked and he dual wielded shortswords). He managed to slay the beast with 1 hp left and stabilize the rest of us. We limped back to town with our phat loots (30 or so platinum and some masterwork thieves tools) and wounds to celebrate victory. We would have done so much better if the humans torch didn't keep drawing attention.
Rogue Elendae 12-07-07, 08:30 PM	The first party I was involved in (before we added new players into the group) consisted of: Elendae-Elf Rogue (me) Astrum-Elf Druid w/wolf companion Kenta-Elf Monk Adavisk-Human Wizard Sounds like just another variant on your average four, doesn't it? Not quite. Adavisk had a STR of 18 (and at least one other 18 stat, possibly 2), Martial Weapons Proficiency, and wielded a rapier. His most beloved spell was Shocking Grasp, usually applied to an opponent after they'd been thoroughly demolished by his wading into the thick of melee with his rapier. His other preferred spells were Spider Climb and Invisibility, which got him (and sometimes the rest of us) through as many traps as my skill-monkeying did. Astrum was usually the aggressive spell-slinger, rather than a heal-bot Druid, and was again prone to wading into the battle with both scimitars slicing. She was usually the one to drop a massive damage-bomb of a spell (usually Call Lightning, I think it was), then plow in with the weapons, though. Elendae was our real ranged fighting master, usually via a crossbow from some vantage point. I was one of the only ones carrying a ranged weapon (Adavisk also had a bow, but he never really used it), and was the only one who preferred to fight at a distance. At least, if there was no way to Sneak Attack something. I was probably the closest to fitting into the box of classic "skill monkey Rogue," but as I said, I was just as often our ranged fighter, given our two spellcasters' tendency to head into the thick of everything. Kenta was quite often our "Face," given that the player and the PC were so guileless that it was easy to tell he was being honest. He was usually our close-combat fighter, true, but I think the idea of a Monk "face" in a party with a Rogue and a Wizard (both of whom had passingly decent CHA scores) certainly goes outside the box. Eventually, we had a few others join in...stereotypical Dwarf Fighter; scrawny Half-Elf Cleric of Kord who was usually best at trapping enemies with Hold Person (he used up a lot of his healing spells on himself when he pulled stupids, though), and tended to flail with a morningstar more than was safe for the rest of us (we tended to duck whenever he was coming into melee), so our group was rather interesting by the time that campaign broke down.
Tanel 12-08-07, 01:12 PM	In playing Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave, we used: Halfling Monk (just gained his first level in Drunken Master) Dwarf Cleric of Clangaden (sp) Human Monk/Rogue (with some Spellfire) Human Warmage all character level 7th now I guess for filling the 4 Boxes, it's more of the idea behind them: Tank/Healer is the dwarf, skills/sneak are the two monks, spellmonger is the warmage. However, we did have to alter some tactics as we did have a little problems with straight-on melee encounters. Usually we'll have the two monks sneak ahead/scout. The warmage (me) likes to start in combat using weapons or bashing with his shield, reserving his spells to aid the others or laying the hurt to the big baddies, and the dwarf, well..................yeah... :D There's a lot of flanking/pincher manuvers in this group (obviously), and found this to be pretty effective. Also, the baddie spellcasters have found the halfling and human monk/rogue to be a problem much of the time. :tongue: Healing is actually a slight problem as the dwarf will buff him and others up if we know we're going into a big combat, but we're a group that believes in "If you deal the most damage the quickest, you won't take much yourself." ;)
Mister_Sinister 12-08-07, 11:34 PM	The current party that I'm co-DMing for (it's a co-operatively DMed game) looks as follows: - Gabriel (human OW4 paladin pure) - Kronus (warforged focused evoker with dips in incarnate and wild mage, PrCing into soulcaster) - Sayuri (human BT soulknife/swordsage, PrCing into sublime soul [homebrew 'blender' of the two]) - Pam (human marksman pure) - Vas (human monk/hexblade/ur-priest/sacred fist) - Norton Chadwick (gnome wizard-based shadowcraft mage) No healer-type to be seen anywhere, except the pally, whose healing is very much a secondary thing. Although Vas can cast divine spells, he doesn't use them to heal, only buff and suchlike. Likewise, no rogue-type either, although Sayuri fits somewhat. We have never had issues, except due to player stupidity.
Scrooge 12-09-07, 12:34 PM	The only essential party member is a healer. I haven't read the rest of the replies but the campaign I'm currently in doesn't have a healer. We have a druid, but he rarely heals. A healer can be replaced by a 750gp healing belt per person, so it's not a particularly fulfulling role.
Alpha_Moose 12-09-07, 02:05 PM	I'm currently in 2 games, DMing one and being a PC for the other. In the one I'm DMing for the players are a Dwarven Crusader, Halfling Rogue, Half-Elf (but with Human stats) Swordsage, and Human Warlock. They can easily go through encounters so far (level 4 right now) and it seems like they will do fine for the entire game. The Rogue and Warlock can use wands for any spell they might need, including healing (the Crusader also takes care of some in battle). Basically the Warlock strips down most enemies before they even get to the party, and then the Crusader, Rogue, and Swordsage collectively rip apart anyone that gets close. Actually it's the first game where we're using the Tome of Battle, and I have to say it's great! This game would not be nearly as fun with a Paladin and Monk instead. In the game where I'm a PC (I think it's Shadows of the Last War) there's just me and my brother (with the DM). My brother is a Druid and I'm an Artificer. In short we are having a ball.
Timespike 12-09-07, 02:05 PM	My most successful campaign to date had the following: 1. Female Human Bard/Ranger/Mindspy (NG) Played as a (very combat-savvy) journalist. She would follow around the rest of the party, record exploits, and sell the stories for a (substantial) profit. She was absolutely, positively the party face. She was also wickedly-effective in combat, as by the end of the game, she had a sword with an ancient bard/paladin bound into it (he could manifest as a ghost and wield the sword himself, or she could use it and he'd heal her, use bardic music, etc. from the blade), a greater cloak of the shadow and a wyrmling copper dragon along for the ride. Very stealthy when she had to be. 2. Female Aasimar Rogue/Cleric/Shadowbane Stalker (LG) Oh, man, was she ever nasty. Took advantage of the two free exotic weapon proficiencies I give every player at level one and wielded a bastard sword to nasty effect. She functioned as the healer some, but often buffed herself up, hid, and clove things in twain from the shadows or a flanking position. Nasty. 3. Male Tielfling Rogue/Fighter/GunMage/Pistoleer/Warlock/Acolyte of the Skin (CG) Lethal magically-augmented marksmanship at its most effective. He just blew everything away. Kept building and/or acquiring better firearms. Also worked as another social type, and due to his evil-looking appearance, allowed the party to sneak into a lot of places where they wouldn't have normally been welcome. 4. Elf Rogue/Fighter/Hawk of Urian (CG) A "grim avenger" type of character. He liked to flank with the rogue/cleric. He was pretty much a straight-up melee warrior. They made up for their lack of a primary spellcaster with full casting mostly through smart play and magic items. They were incredibly self-motivated, too. They actively scoured my setting for injustices to put right. Man was that ever a great game.
NiteCyper 01-29-08, 02:04 AM	Suspended Silence? What's that? IT'S A ROGUE MUST-HAVE!
Tempest Stormwind 01-29-08, 02:17 AM	Suspended Silence? What's that? IT'S A ROGUE MUST-HAVE! Originally Khelben's Suspended Silence from FR, it's now Suspended Silence in the Spell Compendium. The general idea is that it's a short-duration Silence effect (rounds) that is cast on an item, but lies dormant for a long duration until triggered. Once triggered, it's expended. We used it to great effect on the infiltration, as RT noted, preventing the alarm being raised until the operation was well underway. I love it when an obscure, innocuous spell saves the day.
NiteCyper 01-29-08, 04:15 AM	Originally Khelben's Suspended Silence from FR, it's now Suspended Silence in the Spell Compendium. The general idea is that it's a short-duration Silence effect (rounds) that is cast on an item, but lies dormant for a long duration until triggered. Once triggered, it's expended. We used it to great effect on the infiltration, as RT noted, preventing the alarm being raised until the operation was well underway. I love it when an obscure, innocuous spell saves the day. And here I thought it was a Permanency'd Silence. Ah well. Good find anyways. SpC217 for future reference. Good spell for Wand use.
Stardust 01-29-08, 12:05 PM	One of the parties I'm currently playing in. I've named the campaign Operation: Ambush Everything. Calma'ern Layi'ik, Grey Elf Beguiler (Me!): Single-classed beguiler who makes constant use of his Hat of Disguise. Maxed out disguise, bluff, diplomacy and skill tricks such as 'conceal spellcasting' and 'second impression' mean that he's an expert at infiltrating the enemy forces and spreading wanton amounts of misinformation. This ranges from giving inaccurate descriptions of enemies (i.e. our party) to directing vital support in totally the wrong direction. Enough magic and skill to make sure he never gets caught out and invisibility/silence/charm even if he does. Never deals lethal damage. 'Unsettling Enchantment' feat lowers enemy AC and Attack even if they save against his spells. Ivan, Human Dread Necromancer: Also with maxed out bluff and disguise for himself and to help make his minions less obvious. Very good at looking useless and harmless right up until the point he starts throwing negative energy and summoned swarms around the place - likes to stick as many status effects on the enemy as possible including nausea, fear and paralysis. Octavian, Human Scout/Ranger: Rapid shot for when he has a good sniping position, skirmish for when he needs to keep moving. Recently happened across an enchanted greataxe, which he is pretty competent with if close-combat becomes essential. Good at picking off anything which gets within range of the squishier party members. ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// A good example of one of our encounters is the following (we're currently level 4) The town we're in is currently under a *massive* invasion from a strong, well-organised hobgoblin army. We are in a recently raided house in a side street, with hobgoblins all around in the main street nearby. My beguiler has disguised himself as a hobgoblin infantryman by studying the outfit of an enemy we subdued. Heading out to scout a safe route out of the town, he turns the corner and runs smack into a squadron of soldiers, headed by a large cleric. The disguised beguiler claims his own squadron was wiped out, he says they were ambushed by some adventurers and proceeds to give a false description of the party. When instructed to lead them to the place it happened, he takes them past the house the others are hiding in and then bluffs that he just saw the offenders up ahead. The cleric buffs the group and sends them ahead. Just as they get to the other end of the road, our archer appears at a window and begins peppering the cleric with arrows. The necromancer jumps out and unleashes a swarm of poisonous spiders upon the main body of the troops and my beguiler (still in disguise) conceals a casting of another sleep spell. The cleric loses initiative and goes down from the hail of arrows before he can react. Most of the squadron is some combination of asleep, nauseated or poisoned (making sure anything with a ranged attack is subdued). The ones who aren't disabled have to get back down the street to reach the necromancer, but I beat them to it and 'accidentally' block their line of attack, making bluff/sleight of hand checks to appear as if I'm attacking our necromancer. A couple of rounds later and the necro/archer finish off the remaining troops. Itching to play another session with this group, soon, it's a whole lot of fun. As you can see, we have nothing that really passes for a tank or a primary healer, but we get by this by making sure we always have the upper hand, orchestrating ambushes and inflicting debuffs and status maladies.
Reality_Czech 04-01-08, 01:28 PM	Blah, never mind.
g0bl1n 04-01-08, 03:57 PM	We've had many campaigns, and I believe none of them have had the "4 boxes." One that sticks to memory is our viking one we had a few years ago. Characters: Human Fighter(Viking alternative, but fighter nonetheless). Kobold Rouge(Sadly was killed by the viking above, and was kept in a golden box the party found as a trophy...by the viking) Aasimir(Although the PC thought he was human, and it was just a template...I'll explain later!!!) Some other character... I don't remember what exactly he was, but it was a fighter class) So, the story is that the god Loki once upon a time pillaged a village, and raped a mortal woman. She lived, and gave birth to the PC that was half human and half god(the Aasimir, told ya I would explain!!!). Anyways, later on Odin and the other gods were tricked by Loki and his daughter Hel, and they took over Asgaurd. And anyways, the gods need help. At the same time, Christianity is sweeping through the Norse nation. So we'll cut through most of the plot. The party got this Wand(it was mostly a rod of wonder, but with some different spells, and it was Loki's) and the one Aasimir was the only character that could use it (gotta love that godly inheritance). Later on they were chased by Romans...and went into a temple. There they were met by Odin. The viking fighter got Moljnar, because Thor was imprisoned. And then Loki came by, and caused some trouble, and that was really all the far we got on the one, they wanted to do something different... Which brings us the the Predator campaign!!! We had three predators: Fighter Rouge Ranger Lets see, they killed a bunch of these huge wolves that killed a young Predator baby, and got they're light hunting armor. Then went to a human ship that was infested with Aliens that was nearing on their planet. This was their "blooding" and they all killed they're first hard meat with the supervision of a older hunter. So they killed everything on the ship mostly. Then killed the queen, and the fighter Predator jump 80 ft to impale her......one of my more stupid judgments in Jump DCs... Then they had to get out before the ship exploded. Then they went to a Space Jocky ship...and we mostly stopped after that. Then came many different campaigns with Gamblor the Destructinator. I have three other people that play DnD with me regularly, they are: Jon - Usually the good character. Matt - Usually the sneaky or off-beat character. Jay - And Jay......he plays Gamblor......hes......he needs help... So I'll skip to our most current adventure to date in this genre. Characters: Human Rouge(Played by Matt, he likes to steal stuff) Half-elf Ranger(Played by Jon, he likes to sleep with any woman he sees) Human Fighter(Played by Jay, he likes to, well, Kill everybody, and then destroy everything else) So they were in this inn, Jon just woke up from a long night with the Chief of Police's daughter. Jay and Matt were splitting up gems that they got from a man that Matt pick pocketed them from, and Jay killed him after Matt's successful check. The royal police stormed the inn and were arresting the three PCs. Well, Jon grabbed his stuff, and jumped out the second story window naked and landed 5ft away from a wagon with hay in it. Jay and Matt tried to intimidate the royal police that entered his room, but failed and charged and went through them. Then they all got in the wagon with hay in it, and ran. They were chased but lost them. Then they went to a bar, and saw a mysterious cloaked person. Later that night two bugbears threw the person through the PC's door. Then they accepted to protect her so she could bring this object to a wizard. Which was a phlactery to a very weak Lich. So they did that, got a wish spell as a reward. They asked for 30,000 gold, so I teleported them to a mountain with 30,000 gold in it...to mine. They went into a Dwarven mine in the mountain. They were all dead, and they were attacked by a huge Gelatinous Cube. They then left and made they're way to another town. Here they saw many people infront of a magic shop. They were selling this new dietry supplement(I stole this from a post in the 1002 worst adventure ideas). This potion made you skinny and beautiful when you drank it all. So they bought some stuff, and went to a bar and inn. Jay stayed outside the inn and slept in a dumpster he stole from a old man that was homeless. And since they didn't have enough money for the room, Matt picked a lock on one of the rooms and slept in it, and Jon brought two barmaids up with him. During the night, Jon wakes up to find the two barmaids dead (they had mummy rot) and now Jon has it (thats what he gets for sleeping with two floozies). So they go to the Magic shop, Matt picks the lock, and Gamblor(Jay) brings a trash can with trash with him. When Matt opens the lock, Gamblor breaks open the door. They take the old man and beat the truth out of him...which he told them to begin with. He told them he just sells them, the people that make them have a factory near the town. So they bring the old man, and go into the factory. The factory is dark, so Gamblor lights a trash fire and brings in the trashcan with him. as soon as they are in the factory, the door slams shut, the lights turn on, and spikes come out of the ceiling. They get out of that room, but sadly Gamblor loses his trash can in the room with the spikes. There a voice starts to laugh in the next room. They have to get through a grinder of death. Then they get into the next room. This trap I stole from the 1001 greatest traps thread. The room is filled with oil about 2 feet high. On the other side on the room is a door with a bunch of locks on it. A red hot chain with a torch at the end of it comes down from the ceiling slowly. They PCs surprisingly got all the locks off, I wasn't expecting them to. But anyways, the door had a solid stone wall behind it. The torch was an everburning torch, so the oil didn't catch on fire. They found a secret passage. It led into the airvent system. They saw a room with three people in it. It had a Gnome, Mindflayer, and a pale female human in it. The Mindflayer and the Gnome were discussing wages, and the woman was telling the Mindflayer to just give the extra pay, and the Mindflayer was yelling "Who takes care of business here?!" So the PCs get out of the vent without being seen, except for Gamblor, that falls to the floor and starts to curse as he gets up. After some talking, the Mindflayer orders in robot Gnomes as the 3 of them escape. After killing the robot Gnomes, the PCs go after them and go outside to see the Mindflayer and the woman taking off in a wagon, and the Mindflayer kicked the Gnome off the wagon. Gamblor went into a blood frenzy, and started to foam at the mouth. The other PCs were telling him not to do it, but he jumped on the defenseless Gnome and started to eat him. After the other PCs dragged him off the Gnome, Gamblor was eating on a arm he still had in his mouth. Jon searched the body of the Gnome and found a scroll with both the recipe for the potion, and the antidote. There has been many bloody adventures with Gamblor, he is one of my favorite characters made by my players. =D So anyways, before those adventures we did a lot of adventures with the standard classes, they didn't really last long. Although I have found in either case, having a fun adventure takes the cake in any circumstance. As long as the adventure is fun for everyone, it really doesn't matter what the PCs are. Except for the races, have a gelatinous cube as a player DOES NOT WORK.
Sunic_Flames 04-01-08, 04:21 PM	*snip* :confused:
Etarnon 04-01-08, 06:36 PM	I just deal with whatever the players generate, and present as a PC group, be it a Ranger, Barbarian and two clerics, four magic-users, whatever.
Optimator 04-02-08, 12:57 AM	*Snip* Wall of Text crits English for 483 damage. English dies.
Smygarn 04-02-08, 02:02 AM	I was in a party a while ago, with this setup: Lvl 15 Half-orc Barbarian(me) Named Thokk lvl 15 Human Rogue(6)/Shadowdancer(5)/Royal Assassin(4) Named Brand lvl 15 tiefling Fighter(5)/Sideshow Wrestler(5)/Pit Fighter(5) called "The Wrestler" And a Gnome Bard, Vern, that was DM-controlled. There was one encounter, in which we were really making use of all of our talents, and that was tailor-suited to us by the DM. We were going to stop a black knight that we had met before(some kind of demonic/undead mishmash that our DM came up with), and battled since lvl 8 or so. The problem was that the said knight was in a fortress filled with evil demons, ready to rip us apart. Now, despite being a physical-damage oriented party, we decided that our best course of action was to find some kind of distraction whilst we find(and defeat) the black knight, so we raided a mage's tower nearby, whom we already knew had a lot of golems(we had to fight them in the past). The bard tinkered around with the golems, and with the help of Thokk's raw strength, the wrestler's knowledge of smithing, and the rogue's ability to handle magic items, we created a colossal golem, out of smaller golems! The problem was getting it started, but we hired an archmage that activated it for us for the cheap sum of 30 000 gold... Well then, since the rogue was the only one capable of handling the golem(use magic device house rule, knowing command words, and so on...), he got to sit on top of the golem, wearing a ring of invisibility. We armed the golem with a makeshift spear made out of a really old tree(sorry, druids!), and set off towards the castle. We waited until nightfall, and then the rogue, with his pet-golem, set off towards the gates, crashing them, and caused mayhem on the courtyard. Meanwhile, the others climbed up the wall on the side that had the main building, and snuck in undetected. Some dungeon delving later, and we met with the knight on top of the main building, close to the edge towards the courtyard. He was fairly easy to defeat, with the wrestler's ability to pin on the first grapple, and Thokk's gigantic axe, we were near to defeat him. Then he cast meteor swarm on our asses... With a reflex save that was lower than anything else(having multiclassed fighter classes all along), the wrestler died, taking full damage. Thokk took full damage as well, rolling a 5 on the reflex, although he survived because of high hp. The bard was long enough away to not take much damage at all. At this point, the rogue sees us getting our asses kicked, and ordered the golem to skewer the bastard with the colossal-sized spear. He rolled a critical. A colossal spear, with a super-strong golem handling it, gives a lot of damage, when critting, I can tell you that. So, he died. And when he did, the magic of the castle stopped working(of course!) and we all climbed up on the golem's spear, me carrying the wrestler, and got ourselves out of there. Best encounter I've ever played :D
brassbaboon 05-04-08, 12:42 PM	I would like to extend an invitation to everyone else on these boards to tell me about your (roughly) four person parties that didn't fall into the paradigm of four boxes to organize characters with. I would especially like to hear what innovative tactics and approaches to problem solving you were able to come up with when you built parties this way. I have played a number of campaigns that did not fit the classic four-role model. The most recent one was comprised of the following classes when we started at first level: gnome Sorcerer human Rogue Half-giant grappler gnome Spellthief This party was lacking a traditional healer and our "tank" was a specialist grappler whose main combat technique was (and is) to grapple the biggest of the opposing party while the rest of us handle the rest. Frequently (I play the spellthief) we end up polishing off his grappled opponent while it is still grappling with him. The most obvious problem with this party is the lack of a healer. Our DM had the local gnome royalty who sent us on our mission give us some magic rings that provided daily healing spells like "cure light wounds", "Close Wounds", "Cure Minor Wounds", and a special "Martyr's Ring" that allowed one character to transfer hit points to an injured character. This gave us some limited healing capability roughly comparable to a first level druid perhaps. That got us to level three, but it was clear that we would not survive long, but luckily we found another player and now have a druid in the party. The lack of a tank is another issue. The grappling half-giant is a great character and really exercises the grapple rules, but it does leave us in a situation where once he is grappling with someone, the rest of the opposing party was more or less free to engage a couple of gnomes and a human rogue until the druid joined us. Our technique for dealing with this was mostly for the rogue and spellthief to work as partners, flanking the biggest remaining character and doing all the sneak attack damage we could. This was actually surprisingly effective. Until we started running into the undead, that is. Once we got into the necropolis and the sneak attack technique became unusable, we started getting our butts kicked pretty well. My spellthief would have died twice if not for the "close wounds" ring. Once the druid joined us we adopted the practice of summoning wolves as temporary tanks while we pelted the bad guys with ranged attacks. That's been very effective, but now we're more like a standard party. Perhaps the oddest campaign I've done was with a wizard and a monk. That was a much higher level campaign, I think the wizard was 10th level and the monk was 11th level. It was a store-bought module that assumed a four person standard party, but we managed to get through it and defeat the bad guy at the end, some sort of extra-planar being. Mostly we made it through that by drinking lots of potions and using the monks natural healing abilities. But the module wasn't a hack and slash module, it was more about traps, wizard duels and massive area of effect spells. As it turned out, had we taken a normal party into that module, it would likely have been only the rogue and wizard who really contributed anyway.
LivingShadow 05-04-08, 01:10 PM	My group had a party of three: Half-giant Barb/ bear warrior (This player was more or less clueless) Thri-Kreen Psywar/ Pyrokineticist (Could pull off 8 attacks per round and did so frequently.) Human Rogue (Me, SA was through the roof, especially when in the epic levels. Had UMD so I could use wands to keep us alive.) Worked out amazingly well, the bear warrior would charge in while the other two of us would attempt to manuver into position. Problem was the only way we could deal with large groups was my wands, I had fireball, and our DM liked to have us face groups of 20 constructs at a time. So instead of being a normal rogue I was essentially a stand in cleric and mage.