Post/Author/DateTime	Post
exorb 01-13-07, 08:22 PM	sign the petition to re-publish/re-sell all the original core books, + add SDRs is in the out of print section : http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=769877
a_psh 01-13-07, 08:29 PM	Why republish something that only the folks who already have a copy will want? The secondary market (e.g. EBay) already exists to satisfy the need for replacement copies.
Solaris 01-13-07, 08:43 PM	Exactly. And they have no compelling business case for doing so, and plenty of reason not to. Also, I doubt they'll take you very seriously if you can't spell SRD (though you did do it once, accidentally, in your petition). But then I don't expect them to take it very seriously anyway -- online petitions are completely useless.
exorb 01-13-07, 08:49 PM	1) many reasons are posted 2) rules are preferred by many. (i think they are better)
ZombieDragon 01-13-07, 08:58 PM	Sure....because more loopholes are good. My dad talks about his dwarf (race and class) that carried a viking longboat out of a dungeon because he could lift it. Original DnD suffered heavily from the 'well it doesn't say i can't so I can' mentality. Plus it pigeonholed races.
Rainmaker 01-13-07, 09:00 PM	If you want to play orignial dnd, you can. Some people might not want to.
Solaris 01-13-07, 09:03 PM	My dad talks about his dwarf (race and class) that carried a viking longboat out of a dungeon because he could lift it. Original DnD suffered heavily from the 'well it doesn't say i can't so I can' mentality.It also suffered occasionally from bad DMing, as your example shows :) Old D&D was very rules-lite compared to new D&D; common sense on the part of the DM was assumed. And some types of players will still try to sneak anything they can past their DMs, even now. But anyway, some will say it was a better game, others will say it wasn't, and in the meantime there's still no way that WotC is going to reprint it, so the entire point of the thread is moot. Let's at least not turn it into an edition war.
exorb 01-13-07, 09:05 PM	Also, I doubt they'll take you very seriously if you can't spell SRD (though you did do it once, accidentally, in your petition). But then I don't expect them to take it very seriously anyway -- online petitions are completely useless. I did get it wrong in the title - i'll look for it in other places, thanks.. Not a big deal.. I'm not a publisher so an (eazy made mistake).. Whether they take it seriously is up to them. Regarless i thought it was a post that has meaning. - the people that post there have been playing all their life. They like the old rules, because they consider them to be better.
Manyfist 01-13-07, 09:07 PM	Won't happen. No market in it, so WOTC won't do it. OD&D, 1e, 2e are all obtainable off of E-BAY. WOTC was kind enough to have a Out of Print forums, and thats about it. It would be like asking Microsoft to bring back Windows 95.
Rainmaker 01-13-07, 09:08 PM	It would be like asking Microsoft to bring back Windows 95. Ack, no thank you!
Manyfist 01-13-07, 09:10 PM	Ack, no thank you! I know, right? Asking a company to bring back something thats outdated back to production is crazy talk.
exorb 01-13-07, 09:11 PM	The reason there is no market is because nobody can publish new material for it without a lawsuit. THAT IS THE TRUTH.
Manyfist 01-13-07, 09:18 PM	The reason there is no market is because nobody can publish new material for it without a lawsuit. THAT IS THE TRUTH. Because its OLD. Its OUTDATED. D&D has EVOLVED from OD&D to 1e to 2e to 3e to 3.5 e. No need for a company to publish something that their predecessors made. To put this in terms, it would be wanting new DOS operating system when the OS has been dead for quite some time, and eventually 'evolved' into Windows. Taking step backwards aren't the way to go, WOTC might not, but nothing is stopping people on the net of making new stuff. Rule 34 of the Internet, you can find anything on the net, if you claim not so, look harder.
Rainmaker 01-13-07, 09:19 PM	I know, right? Asking a company to bring back something thats outdated back to production is crazy talk. Yes, plus it had so many bugs and loo...I'm starting to sence a comparison, here. :P
exorb 01-13-07, 09:23 PM	Name one new rule that is better and i'll show you why it may not be. Name all the rules you think are better.
Solaris 01-13-07, 09:24 PM	Ah, so we do want an edition war. Pardon me.
exorb 01-13-07, 09:25 PM	bring it.
Artifact 01-13-07, 09:31 PM	bring it. No thanks. I'm a 3e fighter, not a 2e lover. ;)
exorb 01-13-07, 09:34 PM	OK then I'll kick it off: If a TOAD is a familiar of a PC that has 60 HP that toad can now have 30HP? that's a hell of a lot for a frog.. gime a break! I have not even factored in this little froggy's constitution bonus of +2. when a little frog(and i don't care who he belongs to) hopping around is tougher than a 3rd Level Barbarian - ( p.51 PHB 3ED.) Should i start a mod called attack of the familiars? Where cats and frogs of high level NPCs destroy a city!
BroccoliRage 01-13-07, 09:35 PM	No thanks. I'm a 3e fighter, not a 2e lover. ;) exorb, you shouldn't have told these folks about the petition, now it is going to be filled with trolling posts. this was not smart.
Manyfist 01-13-07, 09:37 PM	Name one new rule that is better and i'll show you why it may not be. Name all the rules you think are better. The rules of grammar. Thats the best rule ever, please start using it. OD&D, 1e, 2e were quite rule-lite compared to 3e. Especially OD&D, in which is so old at the moment, it shouldn't be spoken about unless its on the Out of Print forums.
exorb 01-13-07, 09:41 PM	Who wants me to write a module where cats and frogs (familiars) destroy a city? It can be done via 3ed..
Manyfist 01-13-07, 09:41 PM	OK then I'll kick it off: If a TOAD is a familiar of a PC that has 60 HP that toad can now have 30HP? that's a hell of a lot for a frog.. gime a break! I have not even factored in this little froggy's constitution bonus of +2. when a little frog(and i don't care who he belongs to) hopping around is tougher than a 3rd Level Barbarian - ( p.51 PHB 3ED.) Should i start a mod called attack of the familiars? Where cats and frogs of high level NPCs destroy a city! In order to have 60HP has a Sorcerer/Wizard you're going to be High level. That TOAD you speak of is not the little Toad that you can go outside and find. Its a Magical Beast, it draws its power from a powerful being (PC). Your familiar (Toad) is still going to be weaker than most the things you'll be fighting.
exorb 01-13-07, 09:45 PM	I'd put that toad in the front lines! you kidding me?
exorb 01-13-07, 09:48 PM	Sorcerer/Wizard can change to fighter right - he can gain HPs that way.. put the frog up front!
Manyfist 01-13-07, 09:53 PM	Sorcerer/Wizard can change to fighter right - he can gain HPs that way.. put the frog up front! Sure they can turn into a fighter but they loose the ability to cast spells. Fighter is a poor example v. anything its the weakest class. If the Fighter has some good enchantments on his weapons and assuming a full attack, 30+ damage at the same level as the Mage, is easy. Familiars suck as meat shields, unless you spend feats improving them. Anything is possible in D&D 3e, it just takes a little imagination. You're no longer limited to X class for X levels, and monsters can become players.
ZombieDragon 01-13-07, 09:53 PM	Solaris I know it suffered from DM interpretation, the interpretation slowly diminished over the variations. With a group of PC v DM it made for a heated debate at the least. --- Bad Bad thought : imagine these boards under the original DnD ruleset. It would border on argumentative mayhem and well anarchial uprising ---
exorb 01-13-07, 09:54 PM	He can attack with touch spells.. man i want a frog.. can we get this guy armor- oh he does not need it - with all those HPs..
exorb 01-13-07, 09:58 PM	Scoreboard: AD&D 1 3D&D 0 ___________ ok your turn.. or do you want me to go again? I don't know that frog pretty much ruins the game for me!
Manyfist 01-13-07, 10:03 PM	He can attack with touch spells.. man i want a frog.. can we get this guy armor- oh he does not need it - with all those HPs.. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transformation.htm No spells when Transformed. Sure the Toad can channel touch spells, but what fighter is going to allow that toad to reach it? In order to channel the touch spells, the toad needs to be close to its master. A fighter fighting a Wizard if the Wizard is caught off guard, and the Fighter has a bow, a Full attack with a good bow can drop a Wizard assuming all them hit. Also in case you haven't notice, people do die from dogs, and people can die from cats if they're highly allergic. OD&D was too restrictive with the rules and too open for silly stuff.
Artifact 01-13-07, 10:03 PM	exorb, you shouldn't have told these folks about the petition, now it is going to be filled with trolling posts. this was not smart. I'm a troll? Oops, I thought I was just feeding one. Which is the same thing, I suppose. Forgive me; in my haste to post, I allowed my ignorance to show. Won't happen again, I promise. My momma didn't raise no troll ;)
exorb 01-13-07, 10:07 PM	If i go multiclass or whatever i'll maxmize the frog. small frog goes on the front lines regardless. talk about silly.. forgive me.
TheKraken 01-13-07, 10:08 PM	I began playing DnD with 2nd edition like a lot of people, after I convinced my parents through weeks and months of begging to purchase it for me. (Anti-DnD sentiment was very high at that time in the 80s). I loved it and played if for much longer than 3.5 has existed. However, the nature of the beast is that things change. I love the new rules system just as much, but it is a different animal for sure. If the old books were reprinted, I probably wouldn't by them, because I could pick up good used copies for next to nothing. Thats one reason I doubt they will reprint them. The market is saturated. The old system isn't supported by a company, but its easy enough to procure some of the books. I think it would be neat to reprint some rarer books as part of a milestones series or something, but asking for a wholesale reprint is highly unrealistic.
Manyfist 01-13-07, 10:08 PM	If i go multiclass or whatever i'll maxmize the frog. small frog goes on the front lines regardless. Familiars abilities don't improve when you MC unless you go into a class that improves your Familiar. I would suggest reading the 3e rules before trying to "Score" on it.
exorb 01-13-07, 10:14 PM	You guys wanted a ED war -- and saying the new rules are better.. All i ask is in what way? give me an example - and i'll give you 10 times more why they are not.. you guys were saying that - now let's see? give me examples. don't make me bring the robots into this.
TheKraken 01-13-07, 10:19 PM	I actually felt some sympathies to the original posters pleas and felt this topic might actually generate some cool conversation. Then the original poster got very childish. A little word of advice: All rules sets are inherently flawed. 1e, 2e, 3e,3.5, Gurps, d6, d20, White Wolf, Mutants and Masterminds, Rifts, Paladium RPG: whatever you can name, has some gray area, something left to interpretation, something that a particular user finds distasteful. There is no rules system meant to serve us all, else there would only be on rule system we used. I love 2e and some of my fondest memories growing up involve that game. If you want to play it, fine. Get the books and play it. But expecting a major gaming company to produce reprints for an unsupported system, in a changing market, and a different social climate is unrealistic.
Manyfist 01-13-07, 10:25 PM	You guys wanted a ED war -- and saying the new rules are better.. All i ask is in what way? give me an example - and i'll give you 10 times more why they are not.. you guys were saying that - now let's see? give me examples. don't make me bring the robots into this. The Psionic Rules, give me an example how the previous editions were better in Psionics. Now the Customization of 3e can you compare that with OD&D? Can YOU create new stuff in OD&D rules?
exorb 01-13-07, 10:32 PM	well sometimes it just takes that kind of example to get your point across. when someone is trying to tell me that the other rules are better, I'm not going to sit there and not respond - i'm going to tell the truth. = they are not better. the only reason that the AD&D market is not there is because the rules have been taken off the market and nobody can refer to them and write new content without breaking copywrite laws. period. - to say it's because it's a substandard or outdated rule set is ludicrous. and however childish the point was - it's a valid one, and just one of many examples.
xyzchyx 01-13-07, 10:46 PM	AD&D 1e may be old, but it still has a very loyal following... of which I am one, and would love the opportunity to replace my aging books with pristine and new ones. Consider, also, that D&D is, when all is said and done, just a game... and the rules of games do actually not need to evolve to survive --- Monopoly, for example, has no more rules today then it did when I was a child. While RPG's do genuinely require more support than board games, this ongoing support could easily be in the form of new creatures and new adventures, neither of which would nor should require expanding the actual ruleset. Further, if WotC was not interested in this level of support, the community itself would provide it for itself, as long as it was legally permitted to do so. Meanwhile, in such a situation, the old ruleset books could continue to be available in an "unlimited" release, so that people that do like the old game could invite people to play with a lower barrier for entry for them because the books would still available in bookstores. Recall that AD&D was failing before WotC took over not really because the game was old, but because the quality of support was sorely lacking. In their latter years, had TSR demonstrated as much interest in putting out genuinely quality products as they did in trying to apparently break a record for the most FRPG materials published in any single year, things might have gone very differently. Indeed, as the number of books that TSR published went up, sustained interest and sales declined. That alone should tell you something. Now I'm not interested in an edition war or complaining about the things that I think are wrong with 3rd edition. We all have our preferences and our reasons for having them should be enough to justify those preferences, nobody should have to justify why they like an older edition over a newer, or vice versa. But I like first edition, and I expect that I will always prefer first edition... If that makes me weird or eccentric then I'm okay with that. I would really love to see the game available in stores again, because I know that my books are not going to last forever, but I know that the game itself will always live on... if only in the hearts and minds of its fans, of which I shall always be proud to be one.
TheKraken 01-13-07, 10:51 PM	The point wasn't childish, the approach was. One rules set is not intrinsically better than another one. This is a subjective matter, not an objective one. I feel very similar to you about 2e, but I am not going to over-analyze it. Because its pointless. As I said, you can still play the game.
TheKraken 01-13-07, 10:53 PM	Excellent post xyzchyx!!
exorb 01-13-07, 11:01 PM	yep i was wrong. The posts were not in good taste(and childish). my bad. I apologize for that. The 3rd ED rules are different than AD&D. one is not better than the other. there are quarks in AD&D rules as well. again i apologize. --------------------------------------------------------------------------
TheKraken 01-13-07, 11:09 PM	Even though your post was made in spite, I appreciate it :) The one point I do agree with you on is that the rule set could be opened up for fan based support. That would be a very exciting opportunity. A 2e SRD and Open Game license would be great, and I would love to see what people do with. I don't know how legally feasible it is though.
Kresalak 01-13-07, 11:12 PM	there are quarks in AD&D rules as well. Best line EVAR.
Limousine_Liberal 01-13-07, 11:29 PM	I would love to get a copy of the original "white box" set (and Supplements). My copy fell into a collection of separated pages two decades ago. It would mainly be for nostalgic value now though, but pointless nostalgia rocks.
Artifact 01-13-07, 11:38 PM	I would love to get a copy of the original "white box" set (and Supplements). My copy fell into a collection of separated pages two decades ago. It would mainly be for nostalgic value now though, but pointless nostalgia rocks. I had a white box set back in high school and sold it to somebody for like $10.00. Oh, what a heart-breaker. If I had only known how much I would regret that decision later in life. I forget were I even got the set from; I prolly bought it off someone else for $5.00 ;). On the plus side, I've still got my 1st Edition and 2nd Edition books, most in fine condition. I will, under no circumstances, let those out of my sight. Morale of the story: No matter what version you play, don't sell your 'old' D&D stuff; you will regret it later. :)
Solaris 01-13-07, 11:39 PM	I had a white box set back in high school and sold it to somebody for like $10.00. Oh, what a heart-breaker.I did that as a youngster with my Deities & Demigods that had the Cthulhu & Melnibonean mythos in it. I hadn't read Lovecraft or Moorcock yet. I didn't know!
Limousine_Liberal 01-13-07, 11:44 PM	I had a white box set back in high school and sold it to somebody for like $10.00. Oh, what a heart-breaker. If I had only known how much I would regret that decision later in life. I forget were I even got the set from; I prolly bought it off someone else for $5.00 ;). On the plus side, I've still got my 1st Edition and 2nd Edition books, most in fine condition. I will, under no circumstances, let those out of my sight. Morale of the story: No matter what version you play, don't sell your 'old' D&D stuff; you will regret it later. :) I have good sets of 1st and second edition books, except for 1st edition Unearthed Arcana...I have two bad copies of that book, both copies I bought fell apart after a few months of use. Danged cheap binding!
Artifact 01-13-07, 11:54 PM	I have good sets of 1st and second edition books, except for 1st edition Unearthed Arcana...I have two bad copies of that book, both copies I bought fell apart after a few months of use. Danged cheap binding! Yeah, mine did the same dang thing. From what I understand, its a quirk in the binding; its near impossible to find a clean copy, especially after so many years. Unearthed Arcana was the first AD&D book I ever bought. I loved the Cavalier class, so I bought all the others I could get my hands on. To the fellow who lost Deities and Demigods with the Elric and Cthulu mythos: Oooh, I feel your pain. I think the white box and that book are two the hottest collectables out there. Ah well, can't have 'em all, I guess ;).
exorb 01-13-07, 11:54 PM	"there are quarks in AD&D rules as well." way too funny! Irony – I wish I was that clever!
a_psh 01-14-07, 12:27 AM	If a TOAD is a familiar of a PC that has 60 HP that toad can now have 30HP? that's a hell of a lot for a frog.. gime a break!And an 30-year-old halfling can have more hit points than a dragon. Your point? At best, you've got "the HP abstraction is retarded". Okay, I'll give you that much. Scoreboard: all editions of D&D -1.
Solaris 01-14-07, 12:32 AM	Scoreboard: all editions of D&D -1. :clap: Gods bless it.
a_psh 01-14-07, 12:33 AM	Name one new rule that is better and i'll show you why it may not be.Let's start with the use of Jonathan Tweet's "roll + modifiers vs. target number" mechanic (which comes to us originally from, err... Ars Magica, IIRC), which allows for opposed checks. Without appealing to any dice-pool-like mechanic, show me how straight-up "roll a d20/d% under/over this target number" allows you to do the same thing.
Artifact 01-14-07, 12:39 AM	Let's start with the use of Jonathan Tweet's "roll + modifiers vs. target number" mechanic (which comes to us originally from, err... Ars Magica, IIRC), which allows for opposed checks. Without appealing to any dice-pool-like mechanic, show me how straight-up "roll a d20/d% under/over this target number" allows you to do the same thing. The original poster seems to have backed off on any assertion that one version of D&D is any better than another. I'm speaking on his (or her) behalf, of course. :)
exorb 01-14-07, 12:54 AM	yes - i have backed off and apoligized, for those that missed it. My intent was not to argue over rule sets. (I got carried away ):duel: :hides: I don't think it's appropriate for me to debate over rules on this message board. -my statement is that: both are equal in that 3rd ED has as many "quarks" as AD&D rules has in them. ;) JK! psh's point well taken - looks like they all could use a little work with HPs.
a_psh 01-14-07, 01:04 AM	rules are preferred by many. (i think they are better)Here's the thing... the older rules are preferred by a lot of people who have already been playing them for over a decade. They already have all the books that they love! That's why they love them in the first place! The game is, frankly, about as useful for new players as Windows 95 is for new computer users: if I think the new Windows sucks a lot, I'll recommend they use something else, but I'm never going to tell them to go back to a really old Windows; at best, I'll tell them not to upgrade if they're already using an old version that they like. A de-facto pre-3.x D&D SRD already exists, called OSRIC. Hackmaster and dozens upon dozens of games have already copied AD&D to death. Unless you've already played AD&D for years on end (in which case you have the books or can EBay them if you damaged them, as stated before), there's no real reason to prefer it over a lot of the knock-offs. So, the only people who are going to buy your older D&D reprints are going to be the gamers who already played them before.
Artifact 01-14-07, 01:24 AM	A de-facto pre-3.x D&D SRD already exists, called OSRIC. Cool! Thanks for the info. That's definately something I wanna check out. Matter o' fact, I'm downloading the PDF as we speak :D.
Can of the Cave Beer 01-14-07, 01:26 AM	Well, I'm certainly willing to give 3.x the gold on at least one issue--demi-human advancement! Example A: Here we have Golorthos, a High Elf Magic-User. "Greetings, short lived one." Uhh, Hi. Golorthos, how long have you been studying the ways of magic? "Seven hundred and fifty of your years. My knowledge is extensive and exquisite. I catalog secrets that would destroy your entire race and am not lessened for it." I'm sure it is. By the way, have you met my Uncle Tim? He's 47 and six levels higher than you are. Example B: Golorthos doesn't seem to be looking very well does he? Perhaps Cobalt Boulderbreaker will help us out. "Aye, lad. I'll be plenty glad to down a pint or twenty-five with ye." Cobalt, what race and class are you? "Oy! I'm a Dwarf, Hill Dwarf if ye be wanting a specific variety, and I've been fighting battles since I was knee-high to one of yer younger siblin's, lad. I figger I'm about the pinnacle of Dwarven combat expertise--an' that's sayin' somethin." It sure is. Everyone knows how skilled the Dwarves are when it comes to warfare. How long have you been fighting? "Oy, I've been adventurin' near on 70 years. Got a late start, I did. I didn't leave the mountain til I was near 40." Seventy years? Impressive. Have you met my older brother Bill? Bill's been adventuring about ten years, and is four levels higher than you. Perhaps you and Golorthos should have tried thieving? Now, if AD&D had perhaps gone so far as to give each race a class with unlimited advancement (Dwarf=Fighter, Elf=Magic User or Druid, Half-Orc=Assassin or Barbarian, Halfling=Thief), then maybe I wouldn't have any ground to stand on. But they didn't go that far and so I do. Sorry, I just had to have my say in this one. I personally don't care what edition anyone plays so long as they're having a good time.
exorb 01-14-07, 01:30 AM	you make a good point on the halfling. Hackmaster is too comical. (*as per restricted contract - many don't know that they have to make it humors by contract) IE: quarks and such. OSRIC - i'm not out to knock them. (I appreciate them for trying to create new content for AD&D.) But, the game will not prosper well, if publishers have to be very, very, very careful as to not use a proper name (from spells to monsters), for anything at all or face a possible lawsuit. Most publishers will shy away form such a situation where any “key words” can not be used. A lot of it is borderline copywrite infringement, and with out knowing your way around you might get into some trouble. That is the reason that some of us hope that “system reference documents” could be released. This would give the game opportunity for the AD&D game to live on. WotC could maybe get a royalty fee, or sell core rule books, as they do now with the D20 system. Many people think Ebay will fit the demand. You can buy 3ED books on Ebay as well. – but not if AD&D (re-named of coarse) re-enters the market place. The demand will increase as new content is put out. The ”basic” and “Expert” games seemed to survive with just modules coming out. Why not AD&D? I personally think it really would do well. You can’t compare it to an “computer operating system – named windows” because the core of both is more like Windows to Unix (the changes have made the game of the past not compatible).
exorb 01-14-07, 01:31 AM	EDIT - Double post
Sakaki22 01-14-07, 04:18 AM	I started with 3.0 and grew to love 3.5, then gamed with a bunch of gamers who started with OD&D and 1e. I accepted their tastes, played 3.5 with them as they complained about it's inferiority to older editions, then the campaigned changed rulesets to 1e with Unearthed Arcana (needing a houserule to let me play my character. Whose bright idea was it that ELVES can't be RANGERS!?), then quit before it changed again to a 1e/2e/houserule hybrid that completely required new characters. I respected their choices, they respected mine, they tried mine, I tried theirs. It just didn't work out as a group (Sad. Best DM I ever had.) To me it seemed like older editions left alot to the DM, making alot more possible, in the sense that you can do anything with the properly balanced houserule. Personally, I like the fact that I can 1d20 + a relevant ability modifier + a relevant other modifier based on class and level to achieve ANY result, as opposed to a player needing to understand a 20 page table in the Dungeon Master's Book to hit a damn Kobold.
xyzchyx 01-14-07, 04:44 AM	So, the only people who are going to buy your older D&D reprints are going to be the gamers who already played them before.Initially, yes. There is no doubt about that. But I know that people not being able to pick up the books easily in any handy bookstore represents a barrier to entry for some that these current players might want to invite to play. Sure they can buy used ones on ebay, but not everybody is as comfortable buying stuff online as they are with buying stuff they can see for themselves in a store.
angryman 01-14-07, 04:59 AM	I'm going to buy a Sega Master System 2 because the games they have on that platform are better than the shallow, overly complex games we have now. With the advent of new technology, games have lost the focus on fun and challenges, and have instead focused on glitzy graphics, massively multiplayer options (do you really want to play with hundreds of strangers online?) and so on. Let the 8-bit revolution begin!
Escef 01-14-07, 10:31 AM	I started with 1e back in '87. I have no desire to play 1e or 2e again. Would I if someone invited me? Probably. Otherwise, no.
exorb 01-14-07, 12:04 PM	Whose bright idea was it that ELVES can't be RANGERS!? That is not the case with 2nd ED. You can be an Elf Ranger. as opposed to a player needing to understand a 20 page table in the Dungeon Master's Book to hit a damn Kobold. Again that is not the case in 2nd ED. I know the last thing you guys want to here is THAC0 but, it was designed to speed up combat. It does just that if used properly. Everything should be factored in before you begin play. – it takes less then 2 seconds to figure out what you need to hit. I started with 1e back in '87. I have no desire to play 1e or 2e again. Would I if someone invited me? Probably. Otherwise, no. Escef – That is ok. You are entitled to like 3rd ED better. Do you mind if I ask you the reasons you prefer 3rd ED over 2nd?
Escef 01-14-07, 12:57 PM	Do you mind if I ask you the reasons you prefer 3rd ED over 2nd? No, I don't mind at all. Hmmm? Oh, implied question, I get it, I get it. Well, first of all in 3e saves actually tend to get harder, whereas in 2e they got easier and easier. A high level caster in 2e hadn't much hope of getting through many enemies' magic resistance, so he was most useful for buffing the fighters. Besides, most enemies could pass the saves. THAC0 I had no problem with, but many of my friends did. They were art minded people, not math, so the concept of subtracting a negative number was a pain in the ass for them. Non-weapon proficiencies were few and far between. In order to become truely good at something meant sacrificing learning a new skill for a tiny bonus on an old one. I didn't like the secondary skills chart at all. Once you took classes at first level that was it, you couldn't learn new classes. Unless you were a human with nutty ability scores. Dual class/multi class rules were wonky. Ability score charts that were just plain horrible. In combat the difference between a Str of 7 and 14 was... NOTHING! And racial ability abjustments of a mere +/- 1 meant that a strong stat got improved and a mediocre stat stayed mediocre. Ability score minimums on certain classes made little sense. Ability score ceilings on races also failed to excite me. Monsters generally had only 1 stat: Int. Some monsters had 1 other, usually Str. This made adjucating some things a pain. Some weapons were just plain useless. Seriously, whoever used a broad sword in 1e or 2e? 2d4/1d6? Versus a long sword's 1d8/1d12? There is no reason to take it at all. Crossbow damage was pathetic, less damage and a slower rate of fire than a normal bow? Sign me up! Unarmed combat used a weird table, for a rpoficiency or ability check you wanted to roll low, saves and attacks you wanted high, consciousness was percentiles, initiatives d10 (or d6 in 1e), surprise is d10 (and in 1e it was dwho-the-hell-knows?)... And after all these weird tables and different methods to resolve what, they still had less use for a d12 than 3e does! Don't get me wrong, I loved 2e back in the day. Still do. But I recognize it as being seriously outclassed by its successor. 3e is a more elegant, internally consistant system. Yes, sometimes it gets bogged down in details, but you could do the same in 2e or 1e just as easily.
Artector 01-14-07, 01:18 PM	I know not everyone can attend Gen-Con, but a fair number of people do. Every year I go I thumb through the old books, and I see quite a few *cheap* 1st edition books in passable condition. Just like to mention that.
Malraux 01-14-07, 01:36 PM	Is it worth pointing out that you can buy pdf copies (really scans, but fairly good quality ones) of the old editions online? Rpgnow and DrivethruRPG both have pretty much all the stuff tsr published. I can understand the desire for a real bound copy, but selling copies of the book for 5 or 6 bucks is a reasonable action by WotC. If you want a hard copy, you can even pay for the printing and binding costs via Kinkos.
Darkwolf71 01-14-07, 02:24 PM	OK then I'll kick it off: If a TOAD is a familiar of a PC that has 60 HP that toad can now have 30HP? that's a hell of a lot for a frog.. gime a break! I have not even factored in this little froggy's constitution bonus of +2. when a little frog(and i don't care who he belongs to) hopping around is tougher than a 3rd Level Barbarian - ( p.51 PHB 3ED.) Should i start a mod called attack of the familiars? Where cats and frogs of high level NPCs destroy a city! I am intrigued by your ideas, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter. To the question at hand. There is indeed a market for OOP material. There are plenty of people who still play 2e AD&D.
exorb 01-14-07, 02:36 PM	Escef I want to thank you for your great answer! - the best i've heard yet. many think i'm trying to be a "smart***" but i'm realy looking for good reason to embrace the new game. Well, first of all in 3e saves actually tend to get harder, whereas in 2e they got easier and easier. A high level caster in 2e hadn't much hope of getting through many enemies' magic resistance, so he was most useful for buffing the fighters. Besides, most enemies could pass the saves. interesting.. THAC0 I had no problem with, but many of my friends did. They were art minded people, not math, so the concept of subtracting a negative number was a pain in the ass for them.Yea / but could easily learn don't see this one as a very big deal. Non-weapon proficiencies were few and far between. In order to become truely good at something meant sacrificing learning a new skill for a tiny bonus on an old one. I didn't like the secondary skills chart at all. ok.. (i'm not a feat advocate, but this is a matter of preference) Once you took classes at first level that was it, you couldn't learn new classes. Unless you were a human with nutty ability scores.Personaly i like this aspect of the older version. - adds some diversity instead of charcter mesh(at mid range/high level) Dual class/multi class rules were wonky.Just restrictive - I myself like restrictions - again this is opinion. Are you talking about something other than that? Ability score charts that were just plain horrible. In combat the difference between a Str of 7 and 14 was... NOTHING! And racial ability abjustments of a mere +/- 1 meant that a strong stat got improved and a mediocre stat stayed mediocre. good point on 7-14 . but it's considered avarage in this game type. I prefer racial abliity bonus low - again preference. good point on mediocre stats non the less. Ability score minimums on certain classes made little sense. Ability score ceilings on races also failed to excite me. again preference. Ability score min did however excite me. I love the aspect that not everyone could be a paladain. but - it's your right to like the other. Monsters generally had only 1 stat: Int. Some monsters had 1 other, usually Str. This made adjucating some things a pain. point taken, a good one. Some weapons were just plain useless. Seriously, whoever used a broad sword in 1e or 2e? 2d4/1d6? Versus a long sword's 1d8/1d12? There is no reason to take it at all. Crossbow damage was pathetic, less damage and a slower rate of fire than a normal bow? Sign me up! This is a great point here. I've had to go in and bump up crossbow damage(house rule required) he makes a good point here. Unarmed combat used a weird table, for a rpoficiency or ability check you wanted to roll low, saves and attacks you wanted high, consciousness was percentiles, initiatives d10 (or d6 in 1e), surprise is d10 (and in 1e it was dwho-the-hell-knows?)... And after all these weird tables and different methods to resolve what, they still had less use for a d12 than 3e does! Ok i can agree with unarmed combat - another good point!!! Don't get me wrong, I loved 2e back in the day. Still do. But I recognize it as being seriously outclassed by its successor. 3e is a more elegant, internally consistant system. Yes, sometimes it gets bogged down in details, but you could do the same in 2e or 1e just as easily. - yea i'm still leaning twords 2ED, however you have made some real good points.. and those are the kind of points that will turn my head a bit.. Thanks for the great reply.
exorb 01-14-07, 02:50 PM	I am intrigued by your ideas, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter. You can't be serious! :) :pint:
exorb 01-14-07, 02:57 PM	Hey the main part of this - is to allow publishers to make new content - put out some new stuff for us old time gamers - looking for a way WofC can make $ off of it at the same time.. I think selling the core books will work. I know if there is no way for them to make the $, there will be no chance that they release SRDs or something of the like. Like i said Ebay and PDF downloads - are not a good reaon that this won't work. (good points- but PDFs can be found on 3ed as well as 3ed books sold on ebay)-- I still favor 2nd ED for it's restrictions - not alot of bonus- feats seem too powerful, and pointless- takes away from PCs having to think their way -- i finding out I may be one of the few that think this way.!
Malraux 01-14-07, 03:29 PM	I'm not a legal expert, but I think what you want can be done now. Given the openness of the OGL, a 3rd party publisher could create adventures using any of the monsters contained within. In addition, game rules are specifically not copyrightable. Given those two things, I see no legal block for a 3rd party publisher wanting to make a 2nd edition module, as long as it avoided including WotC IP like illithids, beholders, etc. In fact, looking over that OSRIC web page, it looks like they are successfully doing just that. A quick check of the online pdf publishers shows that they have several adventures published under OSRIC, so these are new old edition modules. I'm too lazy to see if the creators of these modules also have them available in print, but given the popularity of online pdf publishing vs print even in 3rd edition works, I'd not be surprised if these are e-versions only.
Escef 01-14-07, 03:53 PM	... many think i'm trying to be a "smart***" but i'm realy looking for good reason to embrace the new game. ... those are the kind of points that will turn my head a bit.. Thanks for the great reply. Firstly, you can say "ass" here. It's ok, really. Bastard and hell are also permitted. (Though I recommend against using them in an insulting context.) Honestly, I think your best bet at giving 3e a fair shake is to play a session or two with a good group (I think we'll all agree that a bad group can ruin any game). Just go in with an open mind and try to have fun. Most of the rules in 3e are pretty easy to learn. Once you've given 3e a fair shot you may like it, and you may not. But at least you'll be able to tell people you gave it a try and it just wasn't for you. Even if you do decide you like 3e, you are still allowed to like 2e.
exorb 01-14-07, 04:37 PM	I'll pick up the 3ED books agina with an open mind, i promise. But evey time I do that i don't make it very far - as i find something that does not seem right.. I'll post those when they come up. (maybe you guys can show me reason to the maddness) OK -- THINK OF THIS: Let me post a “hypothetical” scenario. Maybe if some saw the tables turned you might have a better understanding. Many have said: “there is no way I’m going back to 2nd ED type rules”. Let’s just imagine for a minute – again purely hypothetical. In 2007 a company let’s just give it a hypothetical name: we’ll call it (TSRR - revised) Well this new company TSRR buys the game and all rights to D&D past and present. Well in first things first – these guys are big fans of the old system. So what do they do first? They take all 3rd ED stuff off the shelf, and announce that all 3rd ED will no longer be on the market. They pull all “system ref documents” and no one has legality to publish any content for 3rd ED. What now? Ah big deal – there are several modules out there, and if not I’ll write my own content. Well 4 or 5 years have now passed. Books are getting harder to find. You’ve been going to Bookman’s and other used book stores to hopefully find a replacement book because all your books are falling apart. Download a PDF? I don’t think so! Ever tried to print one of these things for a large book? The ink alone is worth more than a brand new book.(with standard printer).. you can’t have everyone use a laptop that just creates (well not a good game environment). Don’t forget you don’t like the new system all based on the old 2nd, the D20 system is gone. Well you like the D20 system so much your unwilling to compromise. For many reasons you have stated. Well time moves on, you have played most all of the modules you that were pretty cool. Um, your older now and you don’t have time to make up your own modules. So what are you left with? Um I guess I’ll start posting in hopes to bring my game back.. well the majority “have moved on” there have been improvements to the “new system”. – but you like it the D30 way, and this is no where near the D30 way. Sure there are packs around the internet that play D30. But many are leaving now. Why? Because - there is no new content. There are many willing publishers but they don’t want to take the chance of violating copywriting laws. You start feeling betrayed by this new company TSRR. Heck you’ve bought a lot of stuff for D&D. Well anyway none of your stuff is compatible all D20 based. You still very much want to play D20 rules for D&D. So it’s either spending a month or two writing up your own content (while your working..) for no pay, and you can never re-sell it. You now have two choices: 1)give up D20, 2)or start raising havoc on TSRR message boards – try to get people to sign a stupid petition so new content can be made. (it’s not going to matter because – everyone else has moved on) Your left arguing your points why the D20 system is better with these other guys that don't care or think your wrong. This could very well happen to you. If you’re a big fan of D&D. That is why the history of D&D is important for D&D to live on and evolve. There is a certain responsibility for the owners of D&D not to abandon it’s gamers of the past. You can say I disagree – but this may very well happen in reverse. please sign the petition: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=769877 in the out of print section. And i'll do the same one day when they take away the D20 system
Escef 01-14-07, 04:50 PM	Your hypothetical situation has one big hole in it. In order to be a real analogy WotC would have to have hunted down people posting their own stuff on the internet. WotC does not do this. TSR did do this to people posting material for 2e. This earned TSR a really bad rep. In fact, TSR was horrible about customer relations and listening to its consumers. You might notice that 90+% of WotC books have consumer response cards. Very few TSR books did. As for loving things that are lost to you, trust me, I have more experience with that than I care to share. (And I'm not talking about games here.) Suffice to say, I react badly when I'm cut off from the few things I enjoy. But that does not mean that a time to move on does not come.
Artector 01-14-07, 04:55 PM	I sympathize Exorb. But I have 1 comment about the SRDs. A lot of people have already downloaded it.
Malraux 01-14-07, 04:56 PM	If I understand correctly, and since I'm not a lawyer, I could be very wrong, the OGL/srd material is not revokable. And since you cannot copyright game rules, WotC cannot stop 3rd parties from making supplements for d20. I have actually bought and printed books from pdf. The cost is pretty minimal. 2 bucks for a binder, about 2 for paper, and printer toner is cheap. Sure it sucks if you try via an inkjet, but that's why people buy lasers. And lastly, new 2nd edition content is being made by 3rd parties. here is one publisher (http://www.goblinoidgames.com/). Here are a bunch of new 2nd edition modules (http://www.drivethrustuff.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=osri c&search_in_description=1) As for WotC republishing the old books, its very unlikely. If the printing run is unsuccessful, then they've just wasted money on a bunch of books. If it is successful, then they have diluted/split their brand. Either is a bad business decision. edit: And if your complaint is specifically that you cannot get bound copies of newly written 3rd party 2nd edition modules, the place to complain is with the 3rd party publishers, not with WotC, who has no control over these 3rd parties.
protonik 01-14-07, 06:12 PM	What I don't understand is why the old school gamers don't take something like OSRIC and make a book out of it and do that as a POD book. Then they could do other sourcebooks to bring certain things in line with 2e like Specialty Priests as an optional rules source etc. It CAN be legally done quite easily. If OSRIC is legal, then that should be legal. I think maybe they don't understand the SRD well enough or something or they can't stand the idea that they can't call it D&D? I could see a great product line with a cheap Basic Game that goes to level 10 and is about 96 pages or so and then the advanced guides with expanded classes etc. Jason
protonik 01-14-07, 06:13 PM	The reason there is no market is because nobody can publish new material for it without a lawsuit. THAT IS THE TRUTH. Tell Rob Kuntz that or Expeditious Retreat and Goodman Games. The only thing you can't reference are proper names like Tenser or Mordenkainen. Tenser's Floating Disk becomes "Floating Disk" for example. It isn't that big a deal.
helixrat 01-14-07, 07:52 PM	I've been roleplaying for about 14 years now. I started with AD&D 2nd edition. Since then, I've also played GURPS, Whitewolf, RIFTS, Marvel Saga, Cyberpunk, and In Nomine, but mostly AD&D. So thats 8 years under 2e, and 6 under 3.x. What I found with 2e is that my players grew bored of their characters. What could diferentiate one fighter from another? Aside from a different choice of nonweapon proficiency and weapon proficiency, the answer is nothing. Wizards could have a different spellbook from another wizard. Thats the only real difference there. I do have to say that I enjoyed the kit system from the complete books. I believe that is a precursor to the prestige class system in 3.x. One of the main reasons the game, in my opinion, is better, is that there is a lot more choice. You want to play a fighter? Well, my fighter is strong, so he does things to take advantage of that. I want to break someone's sword, so he can't attack me. The second fighter is intelligent, and wants to trip an opponent, in order to remove them from the fight. The same can be said for any of the 3.x core classes. The choice is there in order to make the character you want. 2e dual classing was horrible, and I don't think any of my player's ever did it. No experience if you use your old class' abilities. The multiclassing system in 3e is great. You take a hit on xp if your levels are too far apart, but otherwise, you can do what you want. That intelligent fighter can now pick up a few levels of wizard if he wanted. My point of course is that when I played AD&D 2nd, it was the best roleplaying game I had played. It was the system I most enjoyed. Since 3e came out, that was my favorite system. My players, who have been with me the whole way agree completely. They've stuck to characters for a long time. I suggested to my friend, who has been on a hiatus of late, that we start a new campaign, with new characters and he gave me an absolute no. Would I buy 2nd edition books at this point? No. I wouldn't. Would I want Wizards to put money into an old system instead of publishing new books. No. I just don't think it would make sense for them to do so. I'm not knocking people who do want new printings of old books. I just don't think it is viable in any way, shape or form. Wizards was good enough to put up older books for download. I like this, and have downloaded most of them. I use them for reference, or adaptation. If you want me to sign a petition, then make one for posting more out of print books on the website. I would sign that for you in a heartbeat. A lot of those books were well written, and a joy to read.
a_psh 01-14-07, 08:02 PM	Tons of old books are available in PDF. As mentioned, third parties are still making some compatible content as well. Honestly, how many more 2e splats and adventures do you need? (How many books do you need at all? For a well-written system, the answer should be "one".)
exorb 01-14-07, 11:30 PM	Thanks for all the replies. (good stuff) To mayfist and the others that debated me over my silliness ( I was only going to see it one way no matter what ya said. Took someone to post I was acting childish for me to realize that I WAS – hope you caught those apologies) I may not understand a lot of the OGL.. and how it relates to the SRDs I think I am understanding it a bit more now. Hey some of us stubborn guys don’t want to give up the name “D&D”. That might be part of it. I still would prefer the D&D name (with a major company behind it ) and to use proper names with permission with SRDs < got it right! I still think the old game Hard covers can turn a profit. Some disagree and that’s ok. I’ll leave the petition up regardless: ya never know? Thanks guys. :f:
Delfedd 01-14-07, 11:52 PM	Again that is not the case in 2nd ED. I know the last thing you guys want to here is THAC0 but, it was designed to speed up combat. It does just that if used properly. Everything should be factored in before you begin play. – it takes less then 2 seconds to figure out what you need to hit. Actually, this is not true. Much of the AD&D system was designed to keep out the new people, it was made to be confusing.
angryman 01-15-07, 12:14 AM	Actually, this is not true. Much of the AD&D system was designed to keep out the new people, it was made to be confusing. In that, AD&D was very successful- it was so confusing, I played Rolemaster instead.
Malraux 01-15-07, 01:30 AM	I may not understand a lot of the OGL.. and how it relates to the SRDs I think I am understanding it a bit more now. Hey some of us stubborn guys don’t want to give up the name “D&D”. That might be part of it. I still would prefer the D&D name (with a major company behind it ) and to use proper names with permission with SRDs < got it right! I still think the old game Hard covers can turn a profit. Some disagree and that’s ok. I’ll leave the petition up regardless: ya never know? Thanks guys. :f: As I understand it, the OGL is the license that opens everything contained in the srd up for use by third parties. Note that 3rd edition 3rd party publishers cannot use named IP like Evard's Black Tentacles. Instead, even under the ogl/srd they must use names like Black Tentacles. So depending on what you mean by proper name, they can't do that now. As for the market for these sorts of things, I cannot speak authoritatively. However, one of those publishers (http://www.goblinoidgames.com/ggproducts.htm) I linked to earlier has made one of their products available in print form. But only one, not their entire product line. But I guess the point is that there is a market for this, and it is being filled. It would be nice if the market were robust enough for print versions to be available, but I just don't see it. What seems more realistic as a goal roughly comparable to what you want would be to push the online pdf publishers to have more POD available, which would get you print copies of older books without unrealistic goals of WotC doing print runs.
tierieanas 01-15-07, 11:47 AM	Ya know, this whole thing just reminds me of my old RP group. When 3rd edition came out, I jumped on the bandwagon and never looked back. My friends played 2e and refused to even look at the new stuff. When I read through it the first time, I was amazed at how everything seemed to make sense and fit together. "Oh, but everything is overpowered in 3e," my friends would say. This coming from the people that uses Skills and Powers in 2e (or as I liked to call it "How Many Ways Can I Break the System"). Some people just don't want things to change, as change automatically equals bad! Well I say fie on that! Learn from the past but don't live in it. Embrace change and expect great things in the future. Without change, you have only stagnation. Oh, and the reason I like 3e better than previous editions: It is far, far easier to teach 3e to new people. Roll a d20 and add appropriate modifiers. In fact, they don't even have to know the DC. Just tell the DM what you got, and he will tell you if you succeed. That's enough to get anyone into the game and you can ease the rest of the rules on them.
Kevtar 01-15-07, 12:02 PM	Scoreboard: AD&D 1 3D&D 0 ___________ ok your turn.. or do you want me to go again? I don't know that frog pretty much ruins the game for me! Here are some example stats for a Toad familiar who belongs to a 20th lvl wizard: Toad Size D; HD 1d8 + 19d8; hp 36; Init +1; Spd 5 ft; AC 25, touch 15, FF 24; BAB +10/+5; Grapple -7; Melee +10/+5 (0); Special Abilities-See below; Special Qualities- Amphibious, low-light vision; SR 25; AL N; SV Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +14; Str 1, Dex 12, Con 11, Int 15, Wis 14, Cha 4. Skills and Feats: [These are the wizard's skills] Craft (Bowmaking) +13, Craft (Other) +19, Hide +21, Knowledge (Arcana) +20, Knowledge (History) +19, Knowledge (Local) +24, Knowledge (Other) +18, Knowledge (Religion) +23, Listen +4, Search +6, Spellcraft +21, Spot +4; Alertness. Special Abilities: Deliver Touch Spells, Empathic Link, Improved Evasion, Low-light Vision, Share Spells, Speak with Animals of Its Kind, Speak with Master. Hardly what I would call anything that could destroy a city, much less inspire fear in the hearts of the local commoners. :rolleyes: