Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zyphria 06-24-04, 04:59 PM	Having gotten back into D&D and played almost every single weekend for the last five months, I'm beginning to want more from D&D. With the recent Hasbro deal taking D&D into a temporary end to new content, I believe this would be the right time to begin to reconsider the direction that D&D is heading. The game is becoming more refined...but it is beginning to become plagued by the same issues that you might find in an MMORPG, whereby the increased complexity is being spurred on by the belief that such will mean more fun. However this isn't always the case as loopholes emerge that cause DM's to make hasty decisions that are not always balanced. Surely no one is forced to play 3.5, and thus having older editions allows for the flexibility to fall back on, but I believe that D&D as we know it today doesn't need to continue to evolve, it needs to take a giant leap forward. There is a large computer/console based RPG player base out there today who are either not familiar with D&D, or are intimidated/turned-off by the pace of the game. As someone not unlike these individuals, I can easily understand why. So we turn to the natural progression of things: Computers D&D needs computer and or PDA integration. Official tools for tracking hitpoints, types of attacks by players, AC depending on situations. A simple to use, yet highly flexible system by which many of the 'rules' can be easily accomodated and do not get in the way of the roleplaying. As surely as a school is of no value without the teachers and students, the environment can provide an easier environment to interact between. There are a vast multitude of half finished tools available on the internet today, including visual basic programs, excel spreadsheets, etc. My group recently took to the use of spreadsheets for tracking hitpoints, effects, etc. Now imagine if there were professional done tools that allowed DM's to generate NPC's on the fly using a series of restrictions, and then hand tweak them as they saw fit. You see, there are two parts to these tools, one that fits entirely with the rules laid down in the handbooks, and another set that allows DM's to turn around and modify them to their needs. These tools would need to be directed at either PC's (laptops) and or PDA's. I can even provide a financial incentive for Hasbro to invest the time and effort into this. Just as MMORPG's charge a monthly fee for access to servers, so could they turn around and charge a fee for access to databases filled with fleshed out NPC's, traps, etc. Maintaining originality is perhaps the most threatened aspect of including such a database, but I feel that ultimately with allowing the DM's the ability to turn around and modify such environments to their own wants and needs will ultimately mean that more players can have more fun. What this whole process really equates to is mainstreaming. That word is one that hard core fans everywhere cringe at the sound of. But just as I stated that people can always fall back on previous editions, (3.5 to 3, or 2.0), there is nothing to prevent people from doing so even then. Ultimately the gaming aspects shouldn't continually be pushed into the foreground, trampling the roleplaying aspect, and involving computers or PDA's seems the best solutions. Constructive criticism is welcome. I'll also admit I am probably not the first one to bring this up.
Ogre4Hire 06-24-04, 08:19 PM	Would you mind summerizing that up? I can't tell what point you were trying to make.
ORC_Paradox 06-24-04, 09:03 PM	With the recent Hasbro deal taking D&D into a temporary end to new content, I believe this would be the right time to begin to reconsider the direction that D&D is heading. That statement is going to confuse a lot of people. I haven't heard such a thing. The charm of D&D is that it's a Paper and Pencil game. Not everyone is rich enough to have a laptop, and I certainly can't lug my desktop around to my games. Using the computer is a handy tool for information storage, but the "fun" from all editions is having the books stacked right next to you with honest to goodness high impact plastic dice rather than some simulated computer dice roll. D&D has always been, and will always be complex in one form or another. It's rarely "simplified" (other than the D&D basic game.) and for the most part is as simple or complex as you make it. It wouldn't be difficult for example, to take the current rules edition and make a Basic D&D (red box) game. The rules can be changed, or ignored as the DM and players see fit. Just because it's in the book in print doesn't mean it HAS to be that way. If people want to play computer games, they should play computer games. Neverwinter Nights is pretty darn cool. One advantage of not relying on such electronic media is you never have a virus destroy all your books. (Soda and pizza, sure. But not a computer virus.) I'm sure old timers such as myself came to D&D through reading books, and it seems the younger generation wants to take the quick and easy path to playing the game. (That's the path to the Dark Side, remember?) Reading enriches imagination and while playing videogames is fine (I'm a junkie myself.), it doesn't lend the same type of gaming experience. Computer games are very limiting. Plus, there are no cheat codes in D&D. Another pet peeve of mine is how people can't seem to seperate Hasbro from WotC. WotC is the company that handles D&D, NOT Hasbro. Hasbro has nothing to do with the day to day operations of WotC. WotC is a seprate entity, even though it's owned by another company. There are many companies that are under similar ownership. When you eat your Kraft Maccaroni and Cheese, you don't think "Gee, this is a nice Phillip Morris product.", do you? Yet, Phillip Morris owns Craft foods. My two cents anyway.
WizO_Catoblepas 06-24-04, 10:26 PM	I think a more realistic approach in the future is to have the rule books all in some sort of electronic format. That way, you're not busting you back hauling around your gaming books to your gaming sessions. However, you have to watch out for software piracy. Also, I see that there is promise for have adventures preplanned on computer for the organized DM. And I know now I'm using E-Tools to make up my player characters. However there are drawbacks: like Paradox mentioned, computer are susceptible to things that damage electronics and if you like that sort of format, just play a RPG video game. Also, it's always nice to open a book every once in a while. Finally, it is a great way to socialize with others in your group.
Ranger REG 06-24-04, 10:42 PM	True, sooner or later e-books will take over pen-n-paper books (sucks to be a book printing & binding company though) but there is something to be said of having a real printed book in your hand. It doesn't feel quite right for a player whose wizard PC is looking up the rules on spells in a PDA. In d20 Modern, it's acceptable but not in a D&D session.
PlaDeDump 06-25-04, 06:26 AM	Having the core rulebooks on a PDA seems all right to me, but I prefer the rolling of real dice over some computer dice roller. In addition, the "Pen & Paper" aspect of the game is what makes DnD so charming. I have all three 2nd edition core rule books in MS Word doc format for use on my PDA already. I'd like to get the 3.0e and the 3.5e core rulebooks as word docs too. I'd still carry my books though, i'd just bring along the PDA as backup. :)
jasper 06-25-04, 08:50 AM	use the computer you were born with. very flexible. with training you can remember most of the rules. multiple acs. Create a dm cheat sheet which has the various acs. Please computer geeks have been creating computer software since at least the Trash 90 16 k hoody who. And probaly before that. No all you need is a books, good friends, and good dice.
Vanamir 06-25-04, 11:33 AM	If the use of computers during a pen&paper RPG session should ever become necessary i will quit this hobby. :headexplo Using laptops or PDAs during a game session is always detracting as people start time paying attention to their displays rather than their DM and fellow gamers. The natural way of evolution for the D&D system is to make it more userfriendly, streamlined and intuitive not to make up for complicating rules by the use of electronic gadgets. :mad: Not only would such an evolution lead to vastly increase costs for the players since they would have to buy PDAs or laptops but it would quickly lead to the development of special tools for "game optimization" aka metagaming. For instance you might guess or know a creatures AC and some handy tool would calculate your optimum power attack value for you. Furthermore the DM could never be sure what kinds of information is available to PCs. E.g. some players may secretly look up some monsters statistics during combat which many DMs, myself included, strictly forbid. Don't get me wrong. Software tools can be a great asset when preparing adventures or creating characters especially when you use a lot of supplements with additional feats, spells and classes. But during the game session i don't want to have them around. After all i want to play with my fellow gamers not with some computers.
Zyphria 06-25-04, 01:48 PM	Boy, have I stepped on some toes here...let me attempt to address a few of the points brought up: 1. Hasbro: From what I have read/heard, I was under the belief that no new D&D (beyond what had already been planned) material is going to be written until Hasbro had consolidated the licensing (given that they own WotC, they would like to maximize their profits). If I'm incorrect in this matter...then let me know otherwise. 2. Cost of laptops/pda's, etc. Given the amount of money I've seen some people spend on D&D materials...I wouldn't exactly say it is necessarily overburdensome. That said, now that we're a few years into the 21st century, laptops are becoming increasingly prevalent in schools, businesses, and homes. One can easily turn around and purchase refurbished laptop for under $300. Low-end PDA's are around $100. 3. Computers make things complicated: They really don't have to be. Just because they can be, doesn't necessarily mean that always will be. The tools that I envision WotC being able to develop would be intuitive, fast, and not distracting. What bothers me the heck out of games today is how quickly they slow down when we approach complicated rules and or combat sequences. I'd much prefer computers to act as the middleman on this. I don't expect the idea to be broadly appealing to everyone. Even those of you who have played in excess of 10 years, the concept is however directed at a younger generation, and those who realize the potential for computers to play a role here. My arguement is that computers can enhance the experience, not detract from it, or at the least do more good than harm.
jasper 06-25-04, 02:43 PM	2. Given the amount of money I have seen spend on 3rd edition If we all threw in together we maybe buy a new pda. What role? Visual representives of orcs, lion, tigers and bug bears oh my. So the players who don't have the monster manual, now know what is chewing Fred's kneecap looks like. Or some can animation of the orc chewing Fred's kneecap.Cool once. Cool twice . By three players talking about getting orc a dental plan becuase his left morlar is chipped. Maps. Whose the dms or players? Copies of pcs. Ok this good since it hard to find a thing call a typewriter to have nice readable versions of pc sheets. auto rolling and auto tracking hits. What happens when I forget to tell the pc that bob's mage cast a protection spell preventing some damage. Bob reminds me. I have to remind the computer. Computer has to rewind combat. Creating maps. Hmm how visual and detail do you want it. I can got an library and get old survey maps just tell the players to ignore the modern map symbol keys. Or just creating maps because kool pretty colours. Your idea would be ok IF after spending $100 for the software and pdfs It would aim game play. But why open up another piece of stuff I have lug to the game. And another way of cheating/ easter eggs. Psst guys while jasper is in the bathroom. Call up the pregen characters. Go to Shifty. Have him hold the wand of wonder. When Jasper comes back everyone hit the % key three times then enter. It will lock up his laptop and play it a small world after all and run the movie of harry the hobbit chewing on the orc's knee cap. I can see using the pc to keep records of things, since it eliminates having to photocopy stuff.
Not a monkey 06-25-04, 03:47 PM	Note the CD that came in the back of the Player's Handbook. Nice character generator there. Patch something like that for all supplements printed so far, add a nice interface for plugging in 3rd-party prestige classes, equipement, etc. and you have something I'd definitely pay for. Much neater than any of that awkward Java stuff made in someone's garage. Just give me a nice neat CD of executables.
Troll-Magus 06-25-04, 04:24 PM	Originally posted by Zyphria Boy, have I stepped on some toes here...let me attempt to address a few of the points brought up: 1. Hasbro: From what I have read/heard, I was under the belief that no new D&D (beyond what had already been planned) material is going to be written until Hasbro had consolidated the licensing (given that they own WotC, they would like to maximize their profits). If I'm incorrect in this matter...then let me know otherwise. You are still going to confuse people with that statement. Hasbro purchased WOTC back in ~September 1999. Prior to that WOTC had purchased TSR back in 1997. WOTC acquired all the D&D rights, IP, and property that TSR owned. Product development does not work that way, in my experience large or even mid-size corporations (Hasbro) don't micro-manage a small group like the D&D division of WOTC. At most there would be limited financial and management oversight at WOTC's division level. At Hasbro's corporate level the D&D group would at most be a separate line entry in the books under WOTC. New products and ideas for expansions are generated and developed at the D&D group level. They would pull development dollars from their own pool or tap into WOTC new product funds. If Hasbro corporate has to jump to help then the **** has hit the fan and heads start rolling. Well that is how it works in my company (ITT Industries Inc., 38,000 employees).
Zyphria 06-25-04, 04:40 PM	Well in the least it certainly is confusing.
Killgolli Knight 06-26-04, 07:59 AM	I read something Gygax wrote a few years back in the "On the soap box column" that struck me as funny. He said that game systems today make the IRS tax code easy to understand. It is true. Now wev'e been playing for years so it isnt that hard for us but what about the kids out there that see all these books and walk away. When I got my first Straight D&D boxed set on the cover it said "for ages 10 and up". Not any freakin more! If WOTC want to make money they need to gain the younger audiance's attention again. a handheld PDA system that does all the hard math for you might just be the trick. You can still sit at the D&D table and play your DM's game, without interferance if it's done right. Imagine the new kid with his PDA tapping the command to attack and the PDA showing him the math, and computing it out at the same time. Or maybe it would just give him the total modefiers for his intended action and he could still roll the dice. I dont even think youd need something as complex as a PDA for that. Iv'e seen wrist watches today that could probably do that. Maybe I'm just an idiot?
WizO_Catoblepas 06-26-04, 11:21 AM	No, you're not an idiot. However, though I normally agree with Gygax on my things, this is not on of them. Though I loved the system, the 1st edition AD&D had several rules that were complex. Grappling and overbearing was one of them. With that said, computers are (a) a great way to pull up information during your gaming session and (b) an organized way for a DM to run his campaign. Beyond that, I do agree with the old fashion methods. I prefer to have the character written on pen and paper (a little less easy for a player to modify) and prefer to roll my own dice. (that's half of the fun with the game) At the very least, I don't think that anyone is suggesting that the entire gaming session is dedicated to focusing sole on the computer. After all, looking at a computer screen is about as rude as a player reading a book while the DM is running the session.
Basic_Set 06-26-04, 03:55 PM	Hmm, computers as the future of D&D? I would guess that things will continue in parallel. You'll have pen&paper D&D, with whatever edition arrives, and you'll have computer RPGs like Neverwinter Nights. There is already some overlap - you can be a DM in Neverwinter - but at the core, the two are too different to really blend. D&D has flexibility and storytelling at its root: the DM can wing things if needed. He can perhaps fudge a die roll or two if they are problematic. How that would work with a computer program assisting the DM is beyond me; it seems like it wouldn't be very simple. So we might see more and more PDA/laptop software to assist play, but I don't think it will become an integral part of the game.
Edymnion 06-26-04, 08:23 PM	Originally posted by Ranger REG True, sooner or later e-books will take over pen-n-paper books (sucks to be a book printing & binding company though) but there is something to be said of having a real printed book in your hand. It doesn't feel quite right for a player whose wizard PC is looking up the rules on spells in a PDA. In d20 Modern, it's acceptable but not in a D&D session. I don't think thats a call we can make, not right now. There are people working on electric paper right now, you know. A paper-like material that you can "program" with an image that it will retain until rewritten. So yes, while we may get books in an electronic form, I highly doubt we will ever go fully to computer monitor reading. Its just too darned hard on the eyes, and even the most technologically advanced civilization you can imagine is still going to need non-electronic storage formats. And you just can't crawl up with a good PDA on a rainy day the same way you can a good book.
tariff 06-26-04, 11:44 PM	I like D n D as a pen/paper game, thats the charm for me. If i want computers involved ill go play Everquest. I do however think the game is becoming more and more complex, not neccisarily the basic rules (phb dmg etc), but just the "keeping on Top" of rule changes, inconsistancies on supplimental material. And i can understand why people may think a handy computer could help in games sessions.
Incenjucar 06-27-04, 01:53 AM	D&D can't be grabbed up by computers until the things can read your minds and make instant monsters, at which point, we'll be in the Matrix -anyhow-.
Grayson 06-27-04, 03:33 AM	*scratches head* I don't see what this has got to do with "Bringing D&D back into the Spotlight", but whatever. Personally, if I want to play a computer game, I'll play a computer game. When I want to play D&D, I'll play D&D.
Ranger REG 06-27-04, 03:34 AM	Originally posted by Edymnion I don't think thats a call we can make, not right now. There are people working on electric paper right now, you know. A paper-like material that you can "program" with an image that it will retain until rewritten. So yes, while we may get books in an electronic form, I highly doubt we will ever go fully to computer monitor reading. Its just too darned hard on the eyes, and even the most technologically advanced civilization you can imagine is still going to need non-electronic storage formats. And you just can't crawl up with a good PDA on a rainy day the same way you can a good book. As you said, they're currently working on it. http://www.dottocomu.com/b/archives/002571.html
bahamut_0 06-27-04, 07:38 AM	The only reason I started playing D&D was because I was sick to death of computer games! Why are they trying to change D&D! Leave it as it is.......please......
Zyphria 06-28-04, 03:51 AM	I guess I should have prefaced this all by saying I was attempting to "Think outside the box." Radical changes are rarely accepted outright, but they can on occasion be necessary, and I honestly believe this idea coupled with numerous technologies that will be introduced and become prevalent in the next ten years will allow for whole new level of gameplay.
Roxlimn 06-28-04, 12:27 PM	I believe that the time when electronic media will replace pen and paper permanently is the time when D&D makes it onto electronic media. Until then, it will stay firmly on pen and paper. Other than old hicks like me who would rather not have anything to do with technology unless there's no other way, the core machine for doing D&D is the human mind and always has been. Pencil and paper are more of peripherals. This peripheral hardware needs certain characterisitcs to survive the rigors of tabletop RPGs. It needs to be hardy. It needs to be portable, and it needs to be cheap. Realistically speaking, it doesn't take long at all to access a rule if you're DMing as expected, and you'll need to know where to look anyway. In this sense, having a book is slower, but it's much easier to read than a scrolling computer screen. Until the computer screen can replace the newspaper permanently and in all cases, then I believe that D&D will remain firmly in books.
ante_up 06-28-04, 12:55 PM	Originally posted by Edymnion So yes, while we may get books in an electronic form, I highly doubt we will ever go fully to computer monitor reading. Its just too darned hard on the eyes, and even the most technologically advanced civilization you can imagine is still going to need non-electronic storage formats. I wouldn't be so sure of that. Just because computer monitors are "hard on the eyes" now, doesn't mean they will be in the future.
incarnadine 06-28-04, 01:29 PM	Originally posted by ante_up I wouldn't be so sure of that. Just because computer monitors are "hard on the eyes" now, doesn't mean they will be in the future. they arn't now. I read e-books on my lappy and PDA all the time.
ssvegeta555 06-28-04, 03:29 PM	Originally posted by bahamut_0 The only reason I started playing D&D was because I was sick to death of computer games! Why are they trying to change D&D! Leave it as it is.......please...... I did the same thing. I got soo bored of video games I went ti D&D to start a new hobby. But D&D is soo complex and has unlimted possabilites that no computer can even comprehend. A computer would limit D&D so much, take look at some D&D games. All these games are good but you doont have the flexibility of the normal pen & paper D&D. In Bladurs gate you couldn't make scrolls, magic items, monsters ect. The game I think is closest to the unlimited scope is Elders Scrolls 3: Morrwind. But even that game has it's limits, even with it's level editor. Though I do agree that some programs to organize stuff would be helpful. It would help me a bunch. I have over 30 D&D books and it's really hard to find out what came form what book (this is not counting my homemade stuff and dragon magazines).
Malkieri 06-29-04, 11:11 AM	I believe we have all missed the point of Killgolli Knight's post, and the point is, DnD is aging. The average gamer now is almost in his 30's, Dragon, Dungeon, and even WoTC has remarked their audience is aging. Thus they will introduce a dumbed down box set this September to attract new young blood. The fact is, if DnD doesn't attract new, young gamers it will eventually fade away. I'm talking children 10+ just like with the old box set mentioned above, which kids could understand. We grew up with books, and maybe some nintendo. These kids grew up playing on laptops at the age of 5 and 6. How many kids these days you see play Candy Land? So, naturally they are going to more inclined toward a computerized version of DnD first and foremost. I've talked with Killgolli Knight about this and we agree. We aren't talking about competely computerizing DnD, but introduing a small handheld DnD "companion" type program/game that introduces the kids to the game so when they get older, 13+ they might be intrested in buying the books. Because face it, not 10 year old could even BEGIN to read what is out there now. The companion could have a card reader where a kid could slip in a card that has a new character or even small adventure on it that a kid DM could run. There would be a very simple character creation with the 4 basic classes ( cleric, rogue, wizard, fighter), though you could buy upgrade cards for more complicated classes. It's simple DnD, on a format they understand that gets them intrested so they buy the books later, NOT in any way, a replacement. Hope that clears things up!. Signature, -Fighters Get Bonus Feats?
Grayson 06-29-04, 04:54 PM	Originally posted by Malkieri Because face it, not 10 year old could even BEGIN to read what is out there now. I disagree. I started with basic D&D when I was 9, and got 2nd Edition when I was 10. I didn't have trouble playing the game, and neither did the friends I played with back then. There's no need to continually reinvent the wheel. Give younger people who might be interested copies of basic D&D. Hand down those old red books! :)
Incenjucar 06-29-04, 05:22 PM	The easier way is to release a number of games for Gameboy that have various D&D elements with some of the odd little things kids like these days. Beholders, Behir, and Electric Lizards, gotta catch'em all!