Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sylvaroth 04-11-06, 04:23 AM	I wonder if somebody had houseruled or read about something like this before. I would like to know the costs for building a simple house. Of course the DMG says 1.000 gp, but regarding the 1sp a common laborer gets for one day of work (1.25 cp per hour), this seems pretty high. On the one hand, if said commoner saved all his money, instead of spending it for such minor things as eg. meals or clothing, he would have to work for almost 30 years just to get enough money together to build a house. In this case he would likely be in his mid-fourtys, having a wife, five children, caring for his parents and his grandmother. Since the 1,000 gp is for a one room house, I suppose this one room should be pretty big then. On the other hand, if a skilled (but not exceptional) artisan could make 1 gp per day, he would need almost five years to earn enough money to buy a house. If he was smart enough, he would even buy a carriage and horses to maintain a market stall, maybe even making some extra money. After another five years he would be able to add a room for a shop. All of this, mind you, without abstaining from eating, and wearing clothes. I am relatively sure of the fact that this îs a device of keeping PCs adventuring instead of buying houses all over the country side, renting them to shop keepers , families aso. to make money without any (or at least much) work. But still I think the average commoner would have to look for other ways to obtain his home, sweet home. He would not have a flock of 1k goats, or a herd of 100 cows ready to barter them for a house My questions now are: How much does the building of a very basic one-family-house cost a commoner? (Costs in the sense to determine the time and materials used) Are there some guidelines I am overlooking? Thanks for all ideas, suggestions and hints!
nyysjan 04-11-06, 05:04 AM	the building itself is dirt cheap, land costs. most peasants won't own their homes but live on the land of their lords, paying rent and taxes. in the cities people will live on rent (around 1 gp/month, for the cheapest appartments) on larger buildings with multiple families, or be rich enough to have their own house. also one must remember that people will probably have live their whole lives in this same plot as did their parents and grand parents (those that left became apprentices or servants to people that would give them place to live or pay enough to rent appartment), settlers on a new land would not pay anything but would just stake their claim and build their own house.
Sylvaroth 04-11-06, 06:35 AM	Thanks for the reply, but how are you supposed to pay 1gp per month with a wage of 1 sp per week? And what about said artisan?
nyysjan 04-11-06, 07:30 AM	Thanks for the reply, but how are you supposed to pay 1gp per month with a wage of 1 sp per week? And what about said artisan? what do you mean 1sp per week 1sp per day wage equals 2,8gp month (seven day work week, four week month) 1 gp for rent, 1,8gp for food and other stuff (clothes etc.) if you can't afford it, then you get a budy to live with you and split the cost, in time your wages should go up (assuming you have ranks in profession you work in). peasants and other common folk are poor and they tend to stay poor. and this is why so many people are willing to become aventurers and face almost certain death :P
Sylvaroth 04-11-06, 08:09 AM	what do you mean 1sp per week 1sp per day wage My fault :banghead: peasants and other common folk are poor and they tend to stay poor. and this is why so many people are willing to become aventurers and face almost certain death :P :D There is still one question left: Would the shopkeeper rather rent or buy rooms for his store?
nyysjan 04-11-06, 08:56 AM	shopkeeper woul start by renting his busines, the really rich merchants would own their shops, it really depends on how much the shopkeeper does profit per year the merchant families that have build their fortunes over generations will have their own buildings
Seeker95 04-11-06, 09:28 AM	I would like to know the costs for building a simple house. Of course the DMG says 1,000 gp, but regarding the 1sp a common laborer gets for one day of work (1.25 cp per hour), this seems pretty high. On the one hand, if said commoner saved all his money, instead of spending it for such minor things as eg. meals or clothing, he would have to work for almost 30 years just to get enough money together to build a house.The common laborer didn't build his own house. He didn't even own his house. He rented. However, 30 years is a very common mortgage today, so your assessment is not at all unrealistic. As for the shopkeeper, it depends on the cost of both. A shopkeeper that *could* own the shop would do so, since ownership means not sharing the profits of any given month with a landlord.
celtredleg 04-11-06, 09:31 AM	Something else you are missing. The peasant did not buy the house. Most likely he and his familky are living in his parents house. When they die, he gets it, but his kids are getting close to marrage age. The other thing is that in many peasant villages, the community got togather to build a new house. And you are not talking a mansion. A mob of people can make a simple structure very fast. Until the middle of the 20th century barn rasings where still common in the USA. A farmer gets the materials togather, then on the day, all of his friends and neighbors show up and build it.
Sylvaroth 04-11-06, 09:51 AM	So, let's say I want a room in the front of a one storey building, for the shop's front room, with the shop windows, shelves, displays and all, a store room in the back, a cellar and a two room apartment on the first floor. This would be: 20 ft. x 20 ft. x 10 ft. per room (6) 40 ft. x 40 ft x 10 ft. per floor (3) The DMG lists a House with four to ten rooms as a grand house, costing 5,000 gp. What if I did not want to buy, but to rent these rooms? Would I have to pay a percentage of the 'market price' per month? 1 gp per room? 10 gp for the whole building? The common laborer didn't build his own house. He didn't even own his house. He rented. However, 30 years is a very common mortgage today, so your assessment is not at all unrealistic. As for the shopkeeper, it depends on the cost of both. A shopkeeper that *could* own the shop would do so, since ownership means not sharing the profits of any given month with a landlord. Hello, Seeker95, it is as always a pleasure to have you! :D Thanks for you post, it is well appreciated. Still, where does the money come from to buy something to eat, drink and wear, if everything the single working person in the family earns goes for paying the rent? Something else you are missing. The peasant did not buy the house. Most likely he and his family are living in his parents house. When they die, he gets it, but his kids are getting close to marriage age. Ok what was there first, the hen or the egg. ;) Of course you are right, but one time in history, their ancestors built that house, so there could live generations of their descendants in it. The other thing is that in many peasant villages, the community got together to build a new house. And you are not talking a mansion. A mob of people can make a simple structure very fast. Until the middle of the 20th century barn raisings were still common in the USA. A farmer gets the materials together, then on the day, all of his friends and neighbours show up and build it. Now here we have the hen laying the egg. I assume, to build the above structure, the ‘farmer’ would have to get together 5k gp worth of wood, stone, nails, and mortar? (Just its worth, not like in ‘he goes to the next do-ityourself-store, and buys them’)
Sylvaroth 04-11-06, 11:48 AM	Am I about right?
Seeker95 04-11-06, 02:10 PM	Still, where does the money come from to buy something to eat, drink and wear, if everything the single working person in the family earns goes for paying the rent?A family paying rent generally did not use money. They raised chickens, had a cow, and grew some wheat. They gave a market share of the eggs / bread / milk to the landlord (which is how the landlord maanged to eat). Barter was far more normal than buying. Money was largely an 18th and 19th century phenomenon for the majority of folks. When subsistence living was no longer possible, laborers specialized in a single skill and sold their labor for cash. But before then, laborers sold their labor for goods they needed to round out what their family was already providing through self-subsistence. That said, I would make the "rent" in a shop equal to the cost of staying at an inn. Each room being used could be rented out to a night-at-a-time tenant, so the shopfront owner knows the shopkeeper needs the space. Charge what you could ideally make in any other endeavor.
Sylvaroth 10-18-06, 05:03 PM	:bump:
pres_man 10-18-06, 05:50 PM	Crafting costs are only 1/3 of the market price. Also a lot of personal buildings were probably built in pieces, so the cost would not have to be gotten all at once.
Myree 10-18-06, 08:34 PM	Yup, through this whole thread, all I keep saying to myself is "just like real life". I myself am currently "renting" my second home from the bank, and HOPE to have it "bought" from them in about 22 more years! And all the while I am paying taxes on it to the government to get access to roads and schools and protection from bad guys and other public services. Change "bank" and "government" to "Lord" and you now have the starting of a feudal system, such as the Middle-Age Europe much of D&D is started on. Seeker95, you are right on the money all the way around! The commoner most likely didn't get paid or pay anyone else is money at all -- they inherited what little their parents had, cut or grew for themselves what they could, sold/traded whatever "spare" they might somehow eek out after feeding their family (and hopefully themselves!) to get those items they couldn't grow or make themself. That family home most likely started a long time ago as a simple lean-to in the wilderness or area a Lord set aside for housing (or that some ancester squatted on long enough). Then, as pres_man said, when they could, the forefamily worked together to cut enough wood and scrimp together enough for hardware (or reverse that if it happened to be a blacksmith) to build up a little more. A generation or two latter, maybe an addition could go on. Or maybe the childless widow on the next farm was willing to trade her too large place for yours on the agreement that you "adopted her" as a new family member to care for, or turns out she had a son that already had his own place so was selling hers after she was gone, or the Lord foreclosed on someone and sent them to debtors prison and allowed some other loyal subject to move on in for what was owed them, or whatever other "feudal sales" might have happened. But, back to the OP -- those guides are standard numbers thrown out there to give us SOMETHING to work from. I remember my own excitement at finding out how much a warship was the first time, or better yet, my PC killing off a bad guy slave trader in the City State of the Invincible Overlord and freeing his slaves and taking over his house and shop -- only to be taken in by the watch, convicted of murder of a loyal citizen, and sentenced to execution -- anyone got a blank character sheet and some dice handy? So, the choice goes to the DM as always. If you want to live closer to "reality" in your D&D world, then the DM needs to adjust the scales as necessary. Or if not, just go with the flow and let the commoners either worry about themselves, or have your PC start up a rebellion and face the consequences. OR, just take Seeker's advice and go with the flow... But these days I personally don't see a lot of excitment in roleplaying a commoner's daily life -- I already do that with all the rest of my real life time!
Sylvaroth 10-19-06, 01:56 AM	Thanks for your great insight! My intention for this thread however, was to determine the costs, an average adventurer would have to pay, if he decided to have a house, shop, etc. in his home base town.
Andorxor 10-19-06, 04:34 AM	Nothing.A simple house isn't adventure gear and shouldn't count for his wealth by level,so you should repay him everything he payed for the house to keep everything balanced.
Sylvaroth 10-19-06, 07:39 AM	:rofl:
The_Jester 10-19-06, 10:39 AM	I'm involved in the RPGA's Living Greyhawk game and my region is building a few towns. They're using the rules from some book to calculate the costs, I believe it's the Stronghold Builder's Guide. A cottage costs 800 gold. So it takes 66 years for an untrained, unskilled labourer to purchase one (the person making 1sp/day). Everyone else makes more and can buy it in less. A good bungalo cots 1500gp minimum and can go quite high. A manor runs 5000gp minimum. For some real-life values let's look at it like this: 1sp/day is untrained wages. Highschool dropout at McD's earning minimum wage. Around $40/day before taxes. A gp would be around $4 for this experiment. That has a house at $3,200 a bungalo at $6,000 and a manor at $20,000. That's actually... kinda cheap.
SeptimusMagistos 10-19-06, 11:19 AM	Don't try balancing costs of anything and a commonner's salary. DnD lives in a world where the heroes are causing runaway inflation and there are no unions to drive the wages up.
katarl 10-19-06, 03:18 PM	I really dislike the exponential costs of building homes in dnd. Buying any property costs obscene amounts. Stronghold Builder rules are even worse, building a moderate size *log cabin* costs 40 000gp! You can buy mid-level magic equipment for that! A cheaper way of working out building costs is desperately needed.
MrPiskie 10-20-06, 01:59 AM	I don't quite follow your math there, good Sir Jester. A cottage costs 800 gold. So it takes 66 years for an untrained, unskilled labourer to purchase one (the person making 1sp/day). Everyone else makes more and can buy it in less. At 1 sp/day, it would take 8,000 days of work to earn one of these cottages. If the laborer spent every last copper on his house, and worked every day without break, it would take around 8000/365 = ~22 years to earn it. Of course, that's probably unrealistic, but it could be done in less than 66 years for an industrious commoner. For some real-life values let's look at it like this: 1sp/day is untrained wages. Highschool dropout at McD's earning minimum wage. Around $40/day before taxes. A gp would be around $4 for this experiment. That has a house at $3,200 a bungalo at $6,000 and a manor at $20,000. That's actually... kinda cheap. Actually, if 1 sp = $40 (and that sounds reasonably based on labor rates), then 1 gp = $400. That makes the 800 gp cottage worth $320,000, the 1,500 gp bungalo worth $600,000, and the 5,000 gp manor worth $2,000,000. That seems in the ballpark for the US, depending on the real estate prices of the particular locale. SeptimusMagistos is probably right, though. Given the huge number of factors involved in determining housing prices and prevailing wages (including population, agricultural versus industrial-based economies, construction costs using high technology versus high magic, etc.), such conjecture nears meaninglessness.
Sylvaroth 03-30-07, 01:42 PM	So what would the above described shop cost a PC, if he decided to build it in a city (metropolis)?
Loki5654 03-30-07, 02:42 PM	According to this really good article (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=719384) by Edymnion, an average family of commoners can make a profit of 4gp per week.
Sylvaroth 03-30-07, 03:06 PM	I love this thread, too.:D Thanks for providing the link, Loki!
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-30-07, 04:33 PM	Thanks for your great insight! My intention for this thread however, was to determine the costs, an average adventurer would have to pay, if he decided to have a house, shop, etc. in his home base town. The RAW costs are definitely on the high-side, mostly cos their cost is balanced against the "frontier economy" of the D&D monetary system. Still, building and land are not cheap. This is one reason why it was common in the middle ages for merchants to own a single structure with shop on the ground floor, apartment on the floor or two above, and storage in the attic. Many building owners would, as they do not, rent out extra space, even in government buildings. Guy Fawkes and his fellow Gunpowder Plot conspirators almost changed the source of British history thanks to renting out a cellar beneath the House of Lords. "A room above a shop" is pretty much the most common residence for starting PCs in our D&D games.
Kursk 03-30-07, 06:20 PM	At 1 s.p. a day which is equal to a lower class wage earner today. 1000 GP = ~ $200,000. Not that far off and a 30 year mortgage is standard today...