Building a town and city....so many questions... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Building a town and city....so many questions... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sola
10-03-07, 10:22 PM Ok well here is my problem; I have a few PC who want to start a village and help make it grow and such. I am wondering a few questions that currently pop up. So if you guys can help answer them or direct me to an online source I would really appreciate it. Thanks in advance.

A few questions off the top of my head (I am sure more will come):

1. I know that it takes workers a week per 10,000 gp but how many workers is this? And what if the PCs have more/less then that amount working on it.

2. Say the PCs have captured an Ogre and forces him to work, how many medium humans is he equivalent to?

3. How does a town make gold to further increase its size? A chart or something would be great.

I am sure I will have many more to come so stay tuned, and once again thanks.
Seeker95
10-03-07, 10:35 PM So, the PCs are going to retire form adventuring and instead play Politics and Partisanship? :devil:

There aren't a lot of rules on *running* a town because the game isn't designed for it. The rules in the DMG are not so much for running a town, building a town, or even managing a town behind the scenes. The rules govern mostly how much PC wealth-to-spend the town can support.
Sola
10-03-07, 10:41 PM Not quite retiring, they are wanting to start a town that is closer to an enemy’s country side so that threw adventuring they might build a force or army to start a movement. I am not simply just asking for rules, but options as well. You know like house rules. I have never build a simple house but I think in order to build one in a week it would take about 10 workers. Or maybe Large humanoids are equivalent to like 3 medium workers. I am asking those type of questions.
Zavia
10-04-07, 08:26 AM Get stronghold builder's guide.

Now on labour, (i cant remember if stronghold adressed this) if u have a worker who is large, i would assume it does 50% more work than a medium, a medium 50% more work than a small creature.

So if a medium unit does 1 point of construction(for example), a small unit does 0.66 and a large does 1.5.

Altho a small creature carries the weight of 0.75 of a medium creature, and a large creature, 2x of a medium creature.
dr strangemonkey
10-04-07, 02:19 PM I hear very good things about Reign, which though based on a different rule set than d20 has what is supposed to be a plug and play political game system.

It might be more abstract than you are envisioning here, but that might just save you paperwork in the end.
Dog_O_War
10-04-07, 04:34 PM I'll give you the historical view to the answer of your question.

Typically, towns were not built, but rather formed as people have the tendancy to build close to one another. As more people get together, the more opportunities for shops and the like. Typically towns sprouted close to places they considered safe, such as near a castle or keep, or near a common (and safe) trade route. If they set out to build a town, they will fail. there is really no draw to live there (besides "free" housing. but they have to build that too), and even if there was a draw, they would have a tough time keeping residents as a lack of insentive for trades and professions are surely to follow. A mine has potential; a fishery, castle, lawless entertainment draw (think gambling den), or major farmland all have potential. They cannot build a town near hostile territory and expect people to move in, there has to be an additional draw beyond a place to live.

In summary; build a town=fail. Build a resource to develope a town=success.
indigoreeds
10-05-07, 01:41 AM Pouring that money into a keep might be a better avenue for your PCs to pursue, since not only do they keep the countryside safe from their hostile neighbors, but the construction of the keep creates jobs, requires food sources that also require workers, and is a good site for artisans to set up shop so they can cater to passing travellers and the surrounding markets. They could even upgrade it, perhaps with a school/university, a church to a prominent deity or the chosen faith of their healer, by building an inn and staffing it, or even go on quests to improve their keep (attracting an order of knights to create a chapter house there for instance).

As for rules, I wouldn't try to go with tables and charts, since that's likely going to wind up creating more math and headaches than its worth. You should evaluate how much effort and resources of their total that they're investing into the venture, compared with the outside threats (famine, plague, enemy raids, resident monsters) that the villagers face and determine roughly how much or how little the settlement is growing. You can supplement this with specific details periodically, like the addition of a blacksmith to the town, or a bard troupe deciding the settlement is worth stopping through on their travels.

You should definitely encourage them though; not only are these great non-monetary rewards, but they spawn adventure ideas like mad and give the PCs a sense of involvement in the world. Just don't endanger the survival of their settlement too often, or they'll feel like it's more trouble than it's worth.

Best of luck!
1 ton ghost
10-05-07, 03:16 PM -your old high school or college history books, poke through Jamestown colony, Roanoke, etc.
-Cityscape wasn't terribly impressive, but it's useful
-DMG and DMG2 (Saltmarsh is a good study) are vital, fairly comprehensive
-Stronghold Builder book, someone mentioned this already, nj.
-any architectural plublication at library or web
grumblepott
10-07-07, 10:18 AM The World of Warcraft RPG from Sword and Sorcery has a chapter on community rules. They treat communities almost like a character, they can be leveled up and have feats. Towns can range from a couple dozen to the thousands. Also rules and religious communities as well as arcane. This system use the d20 system so should work in campaigns other the Azeroth.
Habronicus
10-07-07, 12:02 PM I'm the kind of GM who doesn't allow for the players to get power without effort so, with that in mind...

they are wanting to start a town that is closer to an enemy’s country side so that threw adventuring they might build a force or army to start a movement.

I'm pretty sure the enemy has scouts who have warned him of this development. A town takes a long time to be built, so I'd expect the occasional "burning", "razing" and "hit and run" attacks against the working crew and buildings, which the adventurers have to defend.

In turn, the adventurers may realize it's easier to make a large camp, secure it, later upgrade it into an outpost, and go from there... if they can't protect a small settlement, they surely can't protect a whole town, especially one's that's still being built. It's also easier for you, the GM, to find the costs of building a small settlement and then add houses, shops, and the like. If you start big, you'll be overwhelmed easily.

Think of your ordinary party camp. Then think of a larger party camp - maybe an army camp, at this point (you'll be spending money and effort on territory defenses). Then think of camp range (you'll start to worry about towers for vigilance, and food sources). Finally, you may start worrying about living conditions.

Regarding exact numbers, I don't think you'll find the answer here. It's all down to the economy of your world setting. If the resources are hard to come by, it will cost a lot. If they're reasonably easy to fetch, then it will be cheap. You own the world, so you'll need to use your knowledge and common sense. Are there allies that provide materials, or are the adventurers just paying everything out of their own pockets? Is the area considered safe (cheaper to bring men in) or dangerous (men will want extra pay for the risk of working there)? Are there any other settlements near (cheaper travel costs) or far (higher travel costs)?

Shouldn't be easy, either way, but very rewarding if they pull it off! What are the PCs levels, btw?
Crebain
10-13-07, 11:46 PM I figure that the chart would look something like this

Village Size/Minimum Total GP
----------------------------
Thorp - 4,000
Hamlet - 10,000
Village - 20,000
Small town - 80,000
Large town - 300,000
Small City - 1,500,000
Large City - 4,000,000
Metropolis - 10,000,000

or you can add one villager for every 100 gp spent in the town

also try using this http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=938654

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sola 10-03-07, 10:22 PM	Ok well here is my problem; I have a few PC who want to start a village and help make it grow and such. I am wondering a few questions that currently pop up. So if you guys can help answer them or direct me to an online source I would really appreciate it. Thanks in advance. A few questions off the top of my head (I am sure more will come): 1. I know that it takes workers a week per 10,000 gp but how many workers is this? And what if the PCs have more/less then that amount working on it. 2. Say the PCs have captured an Ogre and forces him to work, how many medium humans is he equivalent to? 3. How does a town make gold to further increase its size? A chart or something would be great. I am sure I will have many more to come so stay tuned, and once again thanks.
Seeker95 10-03-07, 10:35 PM	So, the PCs are going to retire form adventuring and instead play Politics and Partisanship? :devil: There aren't a lot of rules on running a town because the game isn't designed for it. The rules in the DMG are not so much for running a town, building a town, or even managing a town behind the scenes. The rules govern mostly how much PC wealth-to-spend the town can support.
Sola 10-03-07, 10:41 PM	Not quite retiring, they are wanting to start a town that is closer to an enemy’s country side so that threw adventuring they might build a force or army to start a movement. I am not simply just asking for rules, but options as well. You know like house rules. I have never build a simple house but I think in order to build one in a week it would take about 10 workers. Or maybe Large humanoids are equivalent to like 3 medium workers. I am asking those type of questions.
Zavia 10-04-07, 08:26 AM	Get stronghold builder's guide. Now on labour, (i cant remember if stronghold adressed this) if u have a worker who is large, i would assume it does 50% more work than a medium, a medium 50% more work than a small creature. So if a medium unit does 1 point of construction(for example), a small unit does 0.66 and a large does 1.5. Altho a small creature carries the weight of 0.75 of a medium creature, and a large creature, 2x of a medium creature.
dr strangemonkey 10-04-07, 02:19 PM	I hear very good things about Reign, which though based on a different rule set than d20 has what is supposed to be a plug and play political game system. It might be more abstract than you are envisioning here, but that might just save you paperwork in the end.
Dog_O_War 10-04-07, 04:34 PM	I'll give you the historical view to the answer of your question. Typically, towns were not built, but rather formed as people have the tendancy to build close to one another. As more people get together, the more opportunities for shops and the like. Typically towns sprouted close to places they considered safe, such as near a castle or keep, or near a common (and safe) trade route. If they set out to build a town, they will fail. there is really no draw to live there (besides "free" housing. but they have to build that too), and even if there was a draw, they would have a tough time keeping residents as a lack of insentive for trades and professions are surely to follow. A mine has potential; a fishery, castle, lawless entertainment draw (think gambling den), or major farmland all have potential. They cannot build a town near hostile territory and expect people to move in, there has to be an additional draw beyond a place to live. In summary; build a town=fail. Build a resource to develope a town=success.
indigoreeds 10-05-07, 01:41 AM	Pouring that money into a keep might be a better avenue for your PCs to pursue, since not only do they keep the countryside safe from their hostile neighbors, but the construction of the keep creates jobs, requires food sources that also require workers, and is a good site for artisans to set up shop so they can cater to passing travellers and the surrounding markets. They could even upgrade it, perhaps with a school/university, a church to a prominent deity or the chosen faith of their healer, by building an inn and staffing it, or even go on quests to improve their keep (attracting an order of knights to create a chapter house there for instance). As for rules, I wouldn't try to go with tables and charts, since that's likely going to wind up creating more math and headaches than its worth. You should evaluate how much effort and resources of their total that they're investing into the venture, compared with the outside threats (famine, plague, enemy raids, resident monsters) that the villagers face and determine roughly how much or how little the settlement is growing. You can supplement this with specific details periodically, like the addition of a blacksmith to the town, or a bard troupe deciding the settlement is worth stopping through on their travels. You should definitely encourage them though; not only are these great non-monetary rewards, but they spawn adventure ideas like mad and give the PCs a sense of involvement in the world. Just don't endanger the survival of their settlement too often, or they'll feel like it's more trouble than it's worth. Best of luck!
1 ton ghost 10-05-07, 03:16 PM	-your old high school or college history books, poke through Jamestown colony, Roanoke, etc. -Cityscape wasn't terribly impressive, but it's useful -DMG and DMG2 (Saltmarsh is a good study) are vital, fairly comprehensive -Stronghold Builder book, someone mentioned this already, nj. -any architectural plublication at library or web
grumblepott 10-07-07, 10:18 AM	The World of Warcraft RPG from Sword and Sorcery has a chapter on community rules. They treat communities almost like a character, they can be leveled up and have feats. Towns can range from a couple dozen to the thousands. Also rules and religious communities as well as arcane. This system use the d20 system so should work in campaigns other the Azeroth.
Habronicus 10-07-07, 12:02 PM	I'm the kind of GM who doesn't allow for the players to get power without effort so, with that in mind... they are wanting to start a town that is closer to an enemy’s country side so that threw adventuring they might build a force or army to start a movement. I'm pretty sure the enemy has scouts who have warned him of this development. A town takes a long time to be built, so I'd expect the occasional "burning", "razing" and "hit and run" attacks against the working crew and buildings, which the adventurers have to defend. In turn, the adventurers may realize it's easier to make a large camp, secure it, later upgrade it into an outpost, and go from there... if they can't protect a small settlement, they surely can't protect a whole town, especially one's that's still being built. It's also easier for you, the GM, to find the costs of building a small settlement and then add houses, shops, and the like. If you start big, you'll be overwhelmed easily. Think of your ordinary party camp. Then think of a larger party camp - maybe an army camp, at this point (you'll be spending money and effort on territory defenses). Then think of camp range (you'll start to worry about towers for vigilance, and food sources). Finally, you may start worrying about living conditions. Regarding exact numbers, I don't think you'll find the answer here. It's all down to the economy of your world setting. If the resources are hard to come by, it will cost a lot. If they're reasonably easy to fetch, then it will be cheap. You own the world, so you'll need to use your knowledge and common sense. Are there allies that provide materials, or are the adventurers just paying everything out of their own pockets? Is the area considered safe (cheaper to bring men in) or dangerous (men will want extra pay for the risk of working there)? Are there any other settlements near (cheaper travel costs) or far (higher travel costs)? Shouldn't be easy, either way, but very rewarding if they pull it off! What are the PCs levels, btw?
Crebain 10-13-07, 11:46 PM	I figure that the chart would look something like this Village Size/Minimum Total GP ---------------------------- Thorp - 4,000 Hamlet - 10,000 Village - 20,000 Small town - 80,000 Large town - 300,000 Small City - 1,500,000 Large City - 4,000,000 Metropolis - 10,000,000 or you can add one villager for every 100 gp spent in the town also try using this http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=938654