Burned Out on D&D [Archive] - Wizards Community

Burned Out on D&D [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jaan
06-17-05, 03:39 AM I'm totally burned out on D&D.

I started playing D&D back around 1982 when I was 12 ... my best friend got the "Basic" set for Christmas and I can still remember going over there and helping him crayon in the dice numbers. Man, what a great time, we were all in Jr High and played constantly and to this day a nice crisp spring day reminds me of playing D&D in study hall with the outside doors wide open and daydreaming about playing all summer once school got out.

Even during the dark times of the early 90's I still played. We had a group that played on the empty 3rd floor of my friends house, in a room painted black. Every time we ran into a monster we would paint it on the wall, and we would play from around 2pm Sunday through Monday sometime.

Later on, I got a job around 2000 in Cambridge MA in a really cool artistic studio with a lot of young folks, and that's when 3.0 came out. It was like a renascence. Everyone started playing again, and I went out and bought up every book I could get my hands on, and of course, every cool set of dice I could find. I even made a dice bag from deerskin ... skin from a deer I hunted and took with a bow, and skinned myself too. I hadn't even realized I had almost become a D&D character until my girlfriend pointed it out. A character I'm sure I dreamt of thousands of times as a young boy.

But then, 3.5. I'm not sure exactly what happened next. The idea of having to buy up all those books again just seemed like too much and, as silly as it sounds, I came to these boards and found out during a revamp my username was lost ... and then I just gave up. Perhaps I was overwhelmed and some defense mechanism kicked in, who knows. It was strange, from one moment to the next D&D went from being my favorite thing to do for the last 20 years, to something I didn't care about anymore.

This all happened a couple of years ago ... I had hoped it would pass but it hasn't. I've even come to these boards every once in a while to see if there is any interest anymore but nothing. I can still remember loving the game but that's not the same.

Has this happened to anyone else here, and how did you get over it if it did?
Ranger REG
06-17-05, 04:09 AM Has this happened to anyone else here, and how did you get over it if it did?
Take a break from D&D. Play a different RPG. :bored:
SnowbearK
06-17-05, 04:52 AM I would recommend Shadowrun as an interim game. Since it's run in "mission" sequence, it's easy to do a "run" then take a break from the game as long as you like, picking up later on with the same characters and no real problems.

Or, if you'd like to stick with D20, run a d20 Modern game for a month or two.

Either way, try to step away from the D&D mindset for a bit. I like to go polar opposites: with Shadowrun, I have a completely different system, genre, setting, and style of adventure. I take a week to get into the game, write a quick run to re-familiarise myself and the players with the rules, then we do that for a couple months.

If you aren't familiar with any other RPG systems, I would say go with D20 Modern, or failing that (expensive for a backup game, really -- it's too late for me son, WotC is my master now! :D), browse through rpgnow.com's selection of .pdf games for a nice, cheap setting/system/game to fall back on.

Failing any of that, you could always pop by the video store and rent a dozen movies...
stealth_monkey
06-17-05, 04:58 AM If you're still wanting to rp I suggest trying some of white wolf's games. They're pretty much the exact opposite of the usual dungeons and dragons experience. If you're interested I'd suggest either Mage: The Awakening (my personal favourite of the WW games) or Vampire the requiem
steenan
06-17-05, 06:01 AM Take a break from RPG. Not very long - a month or two will suffice. Use this time to read some books - ones that are not based on rpg settings, and especialy not based on D&D settings. I advice trying R.Zelazny, O.S.Card and H.P.Lovecraft.

After it you will have your head full of fresh ideas, and you will be really rpg-hungry. Then chose a system (Vampire? Call of Cthulhu? Cyberpunk?) and start playing. :D
stormdragon
06-17-05, 08:53 AM I basically had the same issue. I started playing back in 1977 started with the White Boxed set, and moved to AD&D as the source books were made available. I was a regular player and DM, but my DMing overshadowed my playing. I formed two RPGA clubs, and was Tri member for Living Grehawk for awhile, and I just became burned out.

It wasn't so much the game, or the folks I played with, it was attending Gen Con, and watching Sean K, and the gang treat fans like crap (Thank god he is no longer with Wotc) Looking at product that was high in price and low in quality, and saying enough.

I now play Warhammer Fantasy, Warhammer 40k, Deadlands, and CoC. Will I ever play D&D again? Maybe, but it will probably be as a player rather than a GM.
Jaan
06-22-05, 02:09 AM Thanks for all the replies.

I thought that just taking a little break was what I needed, but it's been two years so far and I still have no interest in going back to D&D. I still read constantly and fantasy novels especially (Zelazny is one of my favorites), and I still love it all, I just don't feel like playing.

You know how it is, there was a time when I was like Neo in The Matrix except that instead of seeing code everywhere, I saw dice rolls ;) Sorry if this all sounds goofy, but it's strange to have such a hole in my life and I couldn't think of anyplace else to go but here.

Well, hopefully someday I'll want to play again ... maybe if I met a great woman who loves the game (chya right!).
jokamachi
06-22-05, 02:24 AM For me, D&D is a peripheral hobby, one that rarely crosses over into the cross-hairs, so I rarely think about quiting as it's not that central to my life. There's so much else out there besides gaming, so find something that will bring the sort of excitement to your life that gaming once did. Find a new job, approach an attractive stranger, go somewhere you've always wanted to. Break with your routine and, most of all, surprise yourself.
Solaris
06-22-05, 03:55 AM Is it all D&D, or just new DND? If the latter, you could always pick up the old Basic set again...
Palin the Wizard
06-22-05, 04:49 AM Don't sweat it.

Burning out happens. If you don't feel like playing, stop worrying about it--you'll just make yourself feel worse. Find something else to do. :)

You could always try RPing online.
amethal
06-22-05, 10:10 AM I've just bought the True 20 rules from Green Ronin.

Its OGL rather then d20, but its very similar to the d20 system but is a lot less rules intense. There are no hit points, only 3 base classes (and they don't have any class abilities, you just choose a feat every level), no prestige classes, no experience points, no gold pieces.

Its a complete change of pace from my 25 or so d20 books and might be what you need.
Damien_Hiro
06-22-05, 01:14 PM I was burned out for a long time, so I stopped playing. I played board games with my family, I wrote stories, read books, exercised and became very Zen. I found what I like about some of the other things I did and picked up D&D again. My game became very enjoyable after that. Just do something other than D&D or anything related, no CRPG. It will work out. You may find yourself never playing again, but it is no big deal. It is a hobby not a necessity.
weasel fierce
06-22-05, 01:34 PM Its not like you have to buy new books. The ones you have still work just fine.

I recommend:

A: DOnt game, just hang out and have fun

B: Play a fresh game, or get into a wargame
ElfWord
06-22-05, 01:49 PM Instead of taking a break, why not just try a completely different style of play? You could try a high-level campaign, or gestalt characters, or evil characters, or a desert campaign where you always speak with an arabian accent in character, or use the Ghostwalk campaign setting, or a planar campaign, or play as a dragon.

You'll also notice that everything I suggested has a published book associated with it. Epic Level Handbook, Unearthed Arcana, Book of Vile Darkness, Sandstorm, Ghostwalk, Planar Handbook, Draconomicon. That's because I've found that getting a new book almost always re-spurs my interest in the game. And while it might be overwhelming to think of all the books from the new edition you don't have, the only way to catch up is one at a time. And playing a campaign based on just one of any of the above books is sure to keep you busy long enough so that when it's time to buy another, your wallet shouldn't be hurting.

Remember that a new edition doesn't even mean you have to fork out another $60 for the core rulebooks. It's all available for download in the System Reference Documents.
rbrt_Spade
06-22-05, 02:03 PM try to buy the books online-thats what i do and say up to 50% THE PRICE.-TRY AMAZON/HALF.COM
not Yoda
06-22-05, 02:07 PM Jaan, I've been there. :( I once went an entire day and didn't think D&D. By that I mean every time I thought about D&D and caught myself I would deliberately start thinking of something else. That was one long boring day. It may be that you're not having fun and that could be the fault of the group you play/played with. I still feel that way sometimes, but soon my group will change and hopefully things will get to be a fun as I remember. :bounce:

coincidentally I met my wife playing.
ForgottenImmortal
06-22-05, 02:13 PM I hear you man. I feelin a little burn out too but I think its for different reasons. I love DnD its a great game its just the people im around now make it so difficult. They say there going to start a game I make my character and it never gets off the ground. I've gone through too many character concepts. The only long game we had was when I dm but that went bad because the players couldn't get along we dont real all hangout at the same time anymore. I kinda blame myself for the messed up game since I was dm and I dont want to have to deal with childish relationship issuse between players. Do you think you grow out of DnD? Maybe I need some new perspective.
striderII
06-22-05, 02:29 PM If you're still wanting to rp I suggest trying some of white wolf's games. They're pretty much the exact opposite of the usual dungeons and dragons experience. If you're interested I'd suggest either Mage: The Awakening (my personal favourite of the WW games) or Vampire the requiem

How did you get a look at Awakening? It's not even out yet. I mean, sure, I got Werewolf: the Forsaken a month before it came out to the masses, but this is just way too early!

So spill...how'd you get it this early? Or are you going just from the spoilers on their site?

strider
Board_Rider
06-22-05, 02:33 PM You're a different person now. Sure, you remember DnD being a good time, but you were young and had different priorities, views on life and thought processes. Your, what, 35/36 now? Thats why DnD just doesn't have the appeal anymore. Your older and have different things going on right now. Some people (there are plenty on this forum) who carry on still in their 40's..you're just not one of them. No biggie. If the love comes back..great, Don't force it.

Hell I remember when I used to love climbing trees and hated girls...thats changed. We all grow up and move on. I play DnD still. But it doesn't hold the same thrill anymore as it did when I was 15 and I even game now for diffferent reasons.
Gedrin
06-22-05, 02:33 PM If you're looking to get back into gaming, try different games. Modern, Supers, Space..lots of games out there. Maybe try a game that isn't an RPG.

Maybe just go to a museum instead.
Alhadis
09-28-05, 03:32 AM Whoa, sorry I left this lying; I kept putting it off a little later and told myself "I'd reply, I really would" but it snowballed because of my all-pervasive obsession for 3d-graphics design (ever since I finally got my registered copy of 3ds-Max, I've forgotten what sunlight looks like. Which isn't a BAD thing, mind you. xP) And for that matter, I look around me and see my world in vertices and polygons; pretty much how Jaan looks around and sees Dice rolls. In fact, I can just imagine him scrunching up a ball of paper, throwing it towards the trash bin, and it missing by an inch and landing in the floor. He cusses and said "Damn, only 1 point off my Attack roll." (d20 + 3 (15 Dex?) VS AC 14 = etc, etc.) And I can sympathise with how being burned out from D&D is painful, Jaan. :( So here's my advice...

Don't give up D&D altogether. When it becomes that deeply a part of you, you'll find it's impossible to let go altogether. And yes, while you *will* tend to get sick of something when you occupy yourself with it too much, I doubt that's what's prompted your burn-out; it was the introduction of 3.5 edition, wasn't it? I feel the same way; ever since Wizards announced they'd be releasing a revised edition, my heart sank. I mean, it wasn't the premise of having to repurchase all their products all over again (hey, you can just download the SRD and eat your heart out.) It was just the feeling that everything was changing, repeatedly, before I could keep up. Initially, I had a bad feeling about third edition, but I eventually found myself a happy, comfortable little rut and I vastly enjoyed the new rules. I didn't want them to change. But now with the revision, and all the nerfed spells... okay, those aren't important. But there was something about 3.5 edition that made me feel... slightly turned off about D&D. I couldn't pin it. But it faded somewhat, and while D&D isn't my primary obsession anymore, it's still... there. It's at the back of my mind, even when I'm focusing on something else. Ready for my attention. Argh, it's so odd... but I hope you see where I'm trying to come from.

Don't worry, mate. :( This burn out might still be a passing thing; but it might be that it just hasn't passed by yet. Keep your mind and imagination active, like reading books and whatnot... leaving your muse and "fantasy"-side of your mind active whilst you give D&D a rest. Like steenan said, it doesn't have to be a long break; just enough for you to "pull out" and "come back in"... kinda like getting some fresh air, I s'pose. >_>; Either way, I wish you the best of luck and dice rolls for the next 34d100+90 years. :D

Yer buddy and the ghost of ye olde Wizards boards,
- Alhadis! :angel:
PS: PLEASE forgive my delayed response, buddy. I made myself a commitment to reply to this thread for you, and I stick by it; even if it means booting a fossil from beneath the sands of old threads (So for those of you who're gonna condemn me for bumping up forgotten threads, TOUGH LUCK! :P Now... back to the world of 3d-graphics design. *disappears into the darkness*)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jaan 06-17-05, 03:39 AM	I'm totally burned out on D&D. I started playing D&D back around 1982 when I was 12 ... my best friend got the "Basic" set for Christmas and I can still remember going over there and helping him crayon in the dice numbers. Man, what a great time, we were all in Jr High and played constantly and to this day a nice crisp spring day reminds me of playing D&D in study hall with the outside doors wide open and daydreaming about playing all summer once school got out. Even during the dark times of the early 90's I still played. We had a group that played on the empty 3rd floor of my friends house, in a room painted black. Every time we ran into a monster we would paint it on the wall, and we would play from around 2pm Sunday through Monday sometime. Later on, I got a job around 2000 in Cambridge MA in a really cool artistic studio with a lot of young folks, and that's when 3.0 came out. It was like a renascence. Everyone started playing again, and I went out and bought up every book I could get my hands on, and of course, every cool set of dice I could find. I even made a dice bag from deerskin ... skin from a deer I hunted and took with a bow, and skinned myself too. I hadn't even realized I had almost become a D&D character until my girlfriend pointed it out. A character I'm sure I dreamt of thousands of times as a young boy. But then, 3.5. I'm not sure exactly what happened next. The idea of having to buy up all those books again just seemed like too much and, as silly as it sounds, I came to these boards and found out during a revamp my username was lost ... and then I just gave up. Perhaps I was overwhelmed and some defense mechanism kicked in, who knows. It was strange, from one moment to the next D&D went from being my favorite thing to do for the last 20 years, to something I didn't care about anymore. This all happened a couple of years ago ... I had hoped it would pass but it hasn't. I've even come to these boards every once in a while to see if there is any interest anymore but nothing. I can still remember loving the game but that's not the same. Has this happened to anyone else here, and how did you get over it if it did?
Ranger REG 06-17-05, 04:09 AM	Has this happened to anyone else here, and how did you get over it if it did? Take a break from D&D. Play a different RPG. :bored:
SnowbearK 06-17-05, 04:52 AM	I would recommend Shadowrun as an interim game. Since it's run in "mission" sequence, it's easy to do a "run" then take a break from the game as long as you like, picking up later on with the same characters and no real problems. Or, if you'd like to stick with D20, run a d20 Modern game for a month or two. Either way, try to step away from the D&D mindset for a bit. I like to go polar opposites: with Shadowrun, I have a completely different system, genre, setting, and style of adventure. I take a week to get into the game, write a quick run to re-familiarise myself and the players with the rules, then we do that for a couple months. If you aren't familiar with any other RPG systems, I would say go with D20 Modern, or failing that (expensive for a backup game, really -- it's too late for me son, WotC is my master now! :D), browse through rpgnow.com's selection of .pdf games for a nice, cheap setting/system/game to fall back on. Failing any of that, you could always pop by the video store and rent a dozen movies...
stealth_monkey 06-17-05, 04:58 AM	If you're still wanting to rp I suggest trying some of white wolf's games. They're pretty much the exact opposite of the usual dungeons and dragons experience. If you're interested I'd suggest either Mage: The Awakening (my personal favourite of the WW games) or Vampire the requiem
steenan 06-17-05, 06:01 AM	Take a break from RPG. Not very long - a month or two will suffice. Use this time to read some books - ones that are not based on rpg settings, and especialy not based on D&D settings. I advice trying R.Zelazny, O.S.Card and H.P.Lovecraft. After it you will have your head full of fresh ideas, and you will be really rpg-hungry. Then chose a system (Vampire? Call of Cthulhu? Cyberpunk?) and start playing. :D
stormdragon 06-17-05, 08:53 AM	I basically had the same issue. I started playing back in 1977 started with the White Boxed set, and moved to AD&D as the source books were made available. I was a regular player and DM, but my DMing overshadowed my playing. I formed two RPGA clubs, and was Tri member for Living Grehawk for awhile, and I just became burned out. It wasn't so much the game, or the folks I played with, it was attending Gen Con, and watching Sean K, and the gang treat fans like crap (Thank god he is no longer with Wotc) Looking at product that was high in price and low in quality, and saying enough. I now play Warhammer Fantasy, Warhammer 40k, Deadlands, and CoC. Will I ever play D&D again? Maybe, but it will probably be as a player rather than a GM.
Jaan 06-22-05, 02:09 AM	Thanks for all the replies. I thought that just taking a little break was what I needed, but it's been two years so far and I still have no interest in going back to D&D. I still read constantly and fantasy novels especially (Zelazny is one of my favorites), and I still love it all, I just don't feel like playing. You know how it is, there was a time when I was like Neo in The Matrix except that instead of seeing code everywhere, I saw dice rolls ;) Sorry if this all sounds goofy, but it's strange to have such a hole in my life and I couldn't think of anyplace else to go but here. Well, hopefully someday I'll want to play again ... maybe if I met a great woman who loves the game (chya right!).
jokamachi 06-22-05, 02:24 AM	For me, D&D is a peripheral hobby, one that rarely crosses over into the cross-hairs, so I rarely think about quiting as it's not that central to my life. There's so much else out there besides gaming, so find something that will bring the sort of excitement to your life that gaming once did. Find a new job, approach an attractive stranger, go somewhere you've always wanted to. Break with your routine and, most of all, surprise yourself.
Solaris 06-22-05, 03:55 AM	Is it all D&D, or just new DND? If the latter, you could always pick up the old Basic set again...
Palin the Wizard 06-22-05, 04:49 AM	Don't sweat it. Burning out happens. If you don't feel like playing, stop worrying about it--you'll just make yourself feel worse. Find something else to do. :) You could always try RPing online.
amethal 06-22-05, 10:10 AM	I've just bought the True 20 rules from Green Ronin. Its OGL rather then d20, but its very similar to the d20 system but is a lot less rules intense. There are no hit points, only 3 base classes (and they don't have any class abilities, you just choose a feat every level), no prestige classes, no experience points, no gold pieces. Its a complete change of pace from my 25 or so d20 books and might be what you need.
Damien_Hiro 06-22-05, 01:14 PM	I was burned out for a long time, so I stopped playing. I played board games with my family, I wrote stories, read books, exercised and became very Zen. I found what I like about some of the other things I did and picked up D&D again. My game became very enjoyable after that. Just do something other than D&D or anything related, no CRPG. It will work out. You may find yourself never playing again, but it is no big deal. It is a hobby not a necessity.
weasel fierce 06-22-05, 01:34 PM	Its not like you have to buy new books. The ones you have still work just fine. I recommend: A: DOnt game, just hang out and have fun B: Play a fresh game, or get into a wargame
ElfWord 06-22-05, 01:49 PM	Instead of taking a break, why not just try a completely different style of play? You could try a high-level campaign, or gestalt characters, or evil characters, or a desert campaign where you always speak with an arabian accent in character, or use the Ghostwalk campaign setting, or a planar campaign, or play as a dragon. You'll also notice that everything I suggested has a published book associated with it. Epic Level Handbook, Unearthed Arcana, Book of Vile Darkness, Sandstorm, Ghostwalk, Planar Handbook, Draconomicon. That's because I've found that getting a new book almost always re-spurs my interest in the game. And while it might be overwhelming to think of all the books from the new edition you don't have, the only way to catch up is one at a time. And playing a campaign based on just one of any of the above books is sure to keep you busy long enough so that when it's time to buy another, your wallet shouldn't be hurting. Remember that a new edition doesn't even mean you have to fork out another $60 for the core rulebooks. It's all available for download in the System Reference Documents.
rbrt_Spade 06-22-05, 02:03 PM	try to buy the books online-thats what i do and say up to 50% THE PRICE.-TRY AMAZON/HALF.COM
not Yoda 06-22-05, 02:07 PM	Jaan, I've been there. :( I once went an entire day and didn't think D&D. By that I mean every time I thought about D&D and caught myself I would deliberately start thinking of something else. That was one long boring day. It may be that you're not having fun and that could be the fault of the group you play/played with. I still feel that way sometimes, but soon my group will change and hopefully things will get to be a fun as I remember. :bounce: coincidentally I met my wife playing.
ForgottenImmortal 06-22-05, 02:13 PM	I hear you man. I feelin a little burn out too but I think its for different reasons. I love DnD its a great game its just the people im around now make it so difficult. They say there going to start a game I make my character and it never gets off the ground. I've gone through too many character concepts. The only long game we had was when I dm but that went bad because the players couldn't get along we dont real all hangout at the same time anymore. I kinda blame myself for the messed up game since I was dm and I dont want to have to deal with childish relationship issuse between players. Do you think you grow out of DnD? Maybe I need some new perspective.
striderII 06-22-05, 02:29 PM	If you're still wanting to rp I suggest trying some of white wolf's games. They're pretty much the exact opposite of the usual dungeons and dragons experience. If you're interested I'd suggest either Mage: The Awakening (my personal favourite of the WW games) or Vampire the requiem How did you get a look at Awakening? It's not even out yet. I mean, sure, I got Werewolf: the Forsaken a month before it came out to the masses, but this is just way too early! So spill...how'd you get it this early? Or are you going just from the spoilers on their site? strider
Board_Rider 06-22-05, 02:33 PM	You're a different person now. Sure, you remember DnD being a good time, but you were young and had different priorities, views on life and thought processes. Your, what, 35/36 now? Thats why DnD just doesn't have the appeal anymore. Your older and have different things going on right now. Some people (there are plenty on this forum) who carry on still in their 40's..you're just not one of them. No biggie. If the love comes back..great, Don't force it. Hell I remember when I used to love climbing trees and hated girls...thats changed. We all grow up and move on. I play DnD still. But it doesn't hold the same thrill anymore as it did when I was 15 and I even game now for diffferent reasons.
Gedrin 06-22-05, 02:33 PM	If you're looking to get back into gaming, try different games. Modern, Supers, Space..lots of games out there. Maybe try a game that isn't an RPG. Maybe just go to a museum instead.
Alhadis 09-28-05, 03:32 AM	Whoa, sorry I left this lying; I kept putting it off a little later and told myself "I'd reply, I really would" but it snowballed because of my all-pervasive obsession for 3d-graphics design (ever since I finally got my registered copy of 3ds-Max, I've forgotten what sunlight looks like. Which isn't a BAD thing, mind you. xP) And for that matter, I look around me and see my world in vertices and polygons; pretty much how Jaan looks around and sees Dice rolls. In fact, I can just imagine him scrunching up a ball of paper, throwing it towards the trash bin, and it missing by an inch and landing in the floor. He cusses and said "Damn, only 1 point off my Attack roll." (d20 + 3 (15 Dex?) VS AC 14 = etc, etc.) And I can sympathise with how being burned out from D&D is painful, Jaan. :( So here's my advice... Don't give up D&D altogether. When it becomes that deeply a part of you, you'll find it's impossible to let go altogether. And yes, while you will tend to get sick of something when you occupy yourself with it too much, I doubt that's what's prompted your burn-out; it was the introduction of 3.5 edition, wasn't it? I feel the same way; ever since Wizards announced they'd be releasing a revised edition, my heart sank. I mean, it wasn't the premise of having to repurchase all their products all over again (hey, you can just download the SRD and eat your heart out.) It was just the feeling that everything was changing, repeatedly, before I could keep up. Initially, I had a bad feeling about third edition, but I eventually found myself a happy, comfortable little rut and I vastly enjoyed the new rules. I didn't want them to change. But now with the revision, and all the nerfed spells... okay, those aren't important. But there was something about 3.5 edition that made me feel... slightly turned off about D&D. I couldn't pin it. But it faded somewhat, and while D&D isn't my primary obsession anymore, it's still... there. It's at the back of my mind, even when I'm focusing on something else. Ready for my attention. Argh, it's so odd... but I hope you see where I'm trying to come from. Don't worry, mate. :( This burn out might still be a passing thing; but it might be that it just hasn't passed by yet. Keep your mind and imagination active, like reading books and whatnot... leaving your muse and "fantasy"-side of your mind active whilst you give D&D a rest. Like steenan said, it doesn't have to be a long break; just enough for you to "pull out" and "come back in"... kinda like getting some fresh air, I s'pose. >_>; Either way, I wish you the best of luck and dice rolls for the next 34d100+90 years. :D Yer buddy and the ghost of ye olde Wizards boards, - Alhadis! :angel: PS: PLEASE forgive my delayed response, buddy. I made myself a commitment to reply to this thread for you, and I stick by it; even if it means booting a fossil from beneath the sands of old threads (So for those of you who're gonna condemn me for bumping up forgotten threads, TOUGH LUCK! :P Now... back to the world of 3d-graphics design. disappears into the darkness)