But this creature goes to eleven [Archive] - Wizards Community

But this creature goes to eleven [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
babysamurai
06-09-06, 05:32 AM A lot of people seem to complain that the stats/levels for Arch-Fiends and Gods is too low. I guess it's about relativity to your campaign.

Because the Gods cap out around 60 to 70 HD, I think Epic characters should peak (ascend) around that level too.

Even though I really dig the ELH, they should have included a suggested cap, instead of 21st level to infinity. I mean, in my campaigns/multiverse, a 90th level fighter simply doesn't exist.

If a character can become 200th level, then it's hard to maintain power perspectives IMO. But since the Gods are at most 70 HD - a 20 HD creature is huge.

Hence, I have no problem (I know I'm in the minority) with the stats for the Gods/Fiends.

It seems that some people are approaching D&D with a Spinal Tap attitude -

"But this goes to eleven"

Of course this is all my opinion, and if anyone is having a great time playing 400th level Druids, then more power to ya.

What does everybody else think?
Witch
06-09-06, 07:04 AM Noone would have a problem with fiends that are just below Deity power level.

However, Archfiends now have CRs lower than a Balor or a Pit Fiend.

Go figure.
babysamurai
06-09-06, 07:12 AM Noone would have a problem with fiends that are just below Deity power level.

However, Archfiends now have CRs lower than a Balor or a Pit Fiend.

Go figure.

If I recall correctly, a lot of the Arch-Fiends in the BoVD had 30+ HD.

As we all know - you can't rely on the vague and subjective CR rules.

From my experience as a DM; what is a CR 15 creature for one 15th level party, is a CR 6 creature to another 15th level party.
Silverthumb128
06-09-06, 08:09 AM I've almost always set the cap at 40, though I could be persuaded to 50. That way, while the character becomes very mighty, they aren't as strong as deities, unless allowed to become one, at which point, its ok to gain more HD past 40/50.
babysamurai
06-09-06, 08:12 AM I've almost always set the cap at 40, though I could be persuaded to 50. That way, while the character becomes very mighty, they aren't as strong as deities, unless allowed to become one, at which point, its ok to gain more HD past 40/50.

Right on - it sounds like you're on my page.
Joe Khol
06-09-06, 08:24 AM Doesn't this problem start with the stating of gods in the first place if not the fundamental numerically scaling nature of D&D 3.x?

If you give gods stats, however high, there will be players who will want to better them and munchkins who can. I prefer gods in my campaigns to be (and remain) more mysterious and nebulous, never defined beyond their basic scope and attitude. That way 'mortals' can never simply progress to be as powerful as the gods (though they can become gods in other ways). Of course, I also prefer lower-powered games anyway, and have avoided Epic levels because of that.

As the OP says, it's a matter of each to their own. The (unavoidable) problem is that WotC have to provide the stats and numbers for people who like that kind of thing while those of us who don't have to work around them.
celtredleg
06-09-06, 09:51 AM If you dont like the stats, just dont use them. It is much easier to ignore what you dont like, than to have to makeup stuff you want that they did not do.
Seeker95
06-09-06, 09:56 AM Doesn't this problem start with the stating of gods in the first place if not the fundamental numerically scaling nature of D&D 3.x?My view too.

In my campaign, deities have no stats. They do whatever I need them to do to accomplish the storyline. Once there is a god in the machine, there is no reason not to have deus ex machina. And for that, no stats are needed.
Spike_Fightwicky
06-09-06, 09:57 AM I'm indifferent towards level caps (Never get that high anyways :().

That said, I think that the demon princes should be higher CR. Many of them (CR wise) can be overthrown by an aspiring Balor. I think that the least they should be is higher CR than the most powerful non-unique demon. Demon Princes shouldn't be scared of their minions, minions should be scared of their demon princes.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer
06-09-06, 11:27 AM The problem lies with the fact that books are made separately and are made so that you can just have one book and not need the other. The Epic Level Handbook and Dieties and Demigods (as well as Faiths and Pantheons) are perfect examples of this. The deities should by all means have those epic level feats, but they do not due to how Wotc runs things :rolleyes:

There's nothing wrong with statting deities, just the way they handled things with them. Dicefreaks.com is a great place. And they have statted dieties quite reasonably.

If the Epic Level Handbook and Dieties and Demigods were made together, it would most definitely be better. Also, the CR system is whacked up, but that's nothing new.

Oh yes, and straight-up level caps are just silly. However, I agree that more attention should have been paid to ascension in the epic levels.
babysamurai
06-09-06, 11:38 AM There's nothing wrong with statting deities, just the way they handled things with them. Dicefreaks.com is a great place. And they have statted dieties quite reasonably.

Dicefreaks are the worst culprits for the "but this one goes to eleven" syndrome.

I mean, I like the site, well, except for the moderators, but I just think they have lost sight of relativity and power levels.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer
06-09-06, 12:13 PM Oh indeed they're very relative. In fact there's no reason that the Gods should have conquered each other right now. Not to mention the fact that Spellcasting Gods are infinitely more powerful than non-spellcasting gods. However, I think they enjoy statting things out and giving powers that make sense for people in their position. And....I think that's good :)
Grand Theft Otto
06-09-06, 02:59 PM Given that the CR's are for weaker versions of themselves (avatars basically) sent out of their home plane, I dont have a problem.

Of course, CR is a poorly balanced mechanic as is. Whats tougher, a 6th level commoner or an ogre? How about this: a planetar or a 16th level cleric. Both are CR 16, but the planetar, in addition to his massive numbers of powers, casts spells as a 17th level cleric. Yet both are the same.

Check out the CR on a will-o-wisp. 6. Look at that mother's AC... 29 vs touch. +16 to hit melee touch for 2d8 electricity. Natural invisibility, flight, immunity to magic except magic missile and maze. Pound for pound, guaranteed to jack up a 6th level group more than damn near anything else.

I think its a smart move putting the avatars of demon lords in a CR range that the normal game gets to. The option to power them up always exists, and guys who play to level 75 or 1 million wouldnt be satisfied anyways.
Sorcen_Anenooata
06-09-06, 03:54 PM I agree the deities shouldnt have stats even the demon princes and archdevils shouldnt be statted. I wholly agree with the 'if you dont like what WOTC publishes, ignore it and make your own' idea. I run 2 types of campaigns, when i run campaigns, 1 is a variation of DnD with stats and dicerolling and such, the 2nd is pure roleplaying with dicerolling only when I need randomness, the way this one works is with the DM, me, roleplaying all NPCs and the PCs running their characters, I've noticed this type of play works best with fewer players. In my pure roleplaying games, my PCs can challenge a demon prince or archdevil and as long as they can think fast enough and creatively enough they can defeat it, one time they challenged a god and were thrown into the shadow dimension with a wave of the deities hand when he noticed they had entered his realm and tried to attack him, he toyed with them momentarily but got bored quickly and threw them into the shadow dimension. Oh just curious munchkin? better definition and do I fall into that category because of the way I play, I dont mind be honest, I've been called worse. :D Besides I'm a happy person, cant hurt my feelings too much.
Puca
06-09-06, 04:09 PM I dont have anything to add, because I never play at that level, I just wanted to tell babysamurai how hysterically funny I thought his thread-title/syndrome-name was.

I usually dont put posters quotes in my sig, but...
Seeker95
06-09-06, 04:14 PM The Epic Level Handbook and Dieties and Demigods (as well as Faiths and Pantheons) are perfect examples of this. The deities should by all means have those epic level feats, but they do not due to how Wotc runs things :rolleyes:[sarcasm]I too find it annoying that WotC did not use the mechanics of the Epic Level Handbook (July 2002) when they were writing Deities & Demigods (April 2002).[sarcasm] :rolleyes:
Archangel_James
06-09-06, 05:24 PM I like how the deities are statted. It works perfectly in any game that I run. I don't want to run a game above level 20, and I simply won't run one above 25. In my current game (party level 10), there is a level 40 NPC (but he's a pacifist, so he doesn't spoil the encounters), and he is dangerously close to ascension. If ascension, death, or retirement doesn't kick in before 40th level, play deities by ear and don't use the stats. Unless you're specifically going for a deicidal campaign, the players should never reach the level of the gods.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
babysamurai 06-09-06, 05:32 AM	A lot of people seem to complain that the stats/levels for Arch-Fiends and Gods is too low. I guess it's about relativity to your campaign. Because the Gods cap out around 60 to 70 HD, I think Epic characters should peak (ascend) around that level too. Even though I really dig the ELH, they should have included a suggested cap, instead of 21st level to infinity. I mean, in my campaigns/multiverse, a 90th level fighter simply doesn't exist. If a character can become 200th level, then it's hard to maintain power perspectives IMO. But since the Gods are at most 70 HD - a 20 HD creature is huge. Hence, I have no problem (I know I'm in the minority) with the stats for the Gods/Fiends. It seems that some people are approaching D&D with a Spinal Tap attitude - "But this goes to eleven" Of course this is all my opinion, and if anyone is having a great time playing 400th level Druids, then more power to ya. What does everybody else think?
Witch 06-09-06, 07:04 AM	Noone would have a problem with fiends that are just below Deity power level. However, Archfiends now have CRs lower than a Balor or a Pit Fiend. Go figure.
babysamurai 06-09-06, 07:12 AM	Noone would have a problem with fiends that are just below Deity power level. However, Archfiends now have CRs lower than a Balor or a Pit Fiend. Go figure. If I recall correctly, a lot of the Arch-Fiends in the BoVD had 30+ HD. As we all know - you can't rely on the vague and subjective CR rules. From my experience as a DM; what is a CR 15 creature for one 15th level party, is a CR 6 creature to another 15th level party.
Silverthumb128 06-09-06, 08:09 AM	I've almost always set the cap at 40, though I could be persuaded to 50. That way, while the character becomes very mighty, they aren't as strong as deities, unless allowed to become one, at which point, its ok to gain more HD past 40/50.
babysamurai 06-09-06, 08:12 AM	I've almost always set the cap at 40, though I could be persuaded to 50. That way, while the character becomes very mighty, they aren't as strong as deities, unless allowed to become one, at which point, its ok to gain more HD past 40/50. Right on - it sounds like you're on my page.
Joe Khol 06-09-06, 08:24 AM	Doesn't this problem start with the stating of gods in the first place if not the fundamental numerically scaling nature of D&D 3.x? If you give gods stats, however high, there will be players who will want to better them and munchkins who can. I prefer gods in my campaigns to be (and remain) more mysterious and nebulous, never defined beyond their basic scope and attitude. That way 'mortals' can never simply progress to be as powerful as the gods (though they can become gods in other ways). Of course, I also prefer lower-powered games anyway, and have avoided Epic levels because of that. As the OP says, it's a matter of each to their own. The (unavoidable) problem is that WotC have to provide the stats and numbers for people who like that kind of thing while those of us who don't have to work around them.
celtredleg 06-09-06, 09:51 AM	If you dont like the stats, just dont use them. It is much easier to ignore what you dont like, than to have to makeup stuff you want that they did not do.
Seeker95 06-09-06, 09:56 AM	Doesn't this problem start with the stating of gods in the first place if not the fundamental numerically scaling nature of D&D 3.x?My view too. In my campaign, deities have no stats. They do whatever I need them to do to accomplish the storyline. Once there is a god in the machine, there is no reason not to have deus ex machina. And for that, no stats are needed.
Spike_Fightwicky 06-09-06, 09:57 AM	I'm indifferent towards level caps (Never get that high anyways :(). That said, I think that the demon princes should be higher CR. Many of them (CR wise) can be overthrown by an aspiring Balor. I think that the least they should be is higher CR than the most powerful non-unique demon. Demon Princes shouldn't be scared of their minions, minions should be scared of their demon princes.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 06-09-06, 11:27 AM	The problem lies with the fact that books are made separately and are made so that you can just have one book and not need the other. The Epic Level Handbook and Dieties and Demigods (as well as Faiths and Pantheons) are perfect examples of this. The deities should by all means have those epic level feats, but they do not due to how Wotc runs things :rolleyes: There's nothing wrong with statting deities, just the way they handled things with them. Dicefreaks.com is a great place. And they have statted dieties quite reasonably. If the Epic Level Handbook and Dieties and Demigods were made together, it would most definitely be better. Also, the CR system is whacked up, but that's nothing new. Oh yes, and straight-up level caps are just silly. However, I agree that more attention should have been paid to ascension in the epic levels.
babysamurai 06-09-06, 11:38 AM	There's nothing wrong with statting deities, just the way they handled things with them. Dicefreaks.com is a great place. And they have statted dieties quite reasonably. Dicefreaks are the worst culprits for the "but this one goes to eleven" syndrome. I mean, I like the site, well, except for the moderators, but I just think they have lost sight of relativity and power levels.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 06-09-06, 12:13 PM	Oh indeed they're very relative. In fact there's no reason that the Gods should have conquered each other right now. Not to mention the fact that Spellcasting Gods are infinitely more powerful than non-spellcasting gods. However, I think they enjoy statting things out and giving powers that make sense for people in their position. And....I think that's good :)
Grand Theft Otto 06-09-06, 02:59 PM	Given that the CR's are for weaker versions of themselves (avatars basically) sent out of their home plane, I dont have a problem. Of course, CR is a poorly balanced mechanic as is. Whats tougher, a 6th level commoner or an ogre? How about this: a planetar or a 16th level cleric. Both are CR 16, but the planetar, in addition to his massive numbers of powers, casts spells as a 17th level cleric. Yet both are the same. Check out the CR on a will-o-wisp. 6. Look at that mother's AC... 29 vs touch. +16 to hit melee touch for 2d8 electricity. Natural invisibility, flight, immunity to magic except magic missile and maze. Pound for pound, guaranteed to jack up a 6th level group more than damn near anything else. I think its a smart move putting the avatars of demon lords in a CR range that the normal game gets to. The option to power them up always exists, and guys who play to level 75 or 1 million wouldnt be satisfied anyways.
Sorcen_Anenooata 06-09-06, 03:54 PM	I agree the deities shouldnt have stats even the demon princes and archdevils shouldnt be statted. I wholly agree with the 'if you dont like what WOTC publishes, ignore it and make your own' idea. I run 2 types of campaigns, when i run campaigns, 1 is a variation of DnD with stats and dicerolling and such, the 2nd is pure roleplaying with dicerolling only when I need randomness, the way this one works is with the DM, me, roleplaying all NPCs and the PCs running their characters, I've noticed this type of play works best with fewer players. In my pure roleplaying games, my PCs can challenge a demon prince or archdevil and as long as they can think fast enough and creatively enough they can defeat it, one time they challenged a god and were thrown into the shadow dimension with a wave of the deities hand when he noticed they had entered his realm and tried to attack him, he toyed with them momentarily but got bored quickly and threw them into the shadow dimension. Oh just curious munchkin? better definition and do I fall into that category because of the way I play, I dont mind be honest, I've been called worse. :D Besides I'm a happy person, cant hurt my feelings too much.
Puca 06-09-06, 04:09 PM	I dont have anything to add, because I never play at that level, I just wanted to tell babysamurai how hysterically funny I thought his thread-title/syndrome-name was. I usually dont put posters quotes in my sig, but...
Seeker95 06-09-06, 04:14 PM	The Epic Level Handbook and Dieties and Demigods (as well as Faiths and Pantheons) are perfect examples of this. The deities should by all means have those epic level feats, but they do not due to how Wotc runs things :rolleyes:[sarcasm]I too find it annoying that WotC did not use the mechanics of the Epic Level Handbook (July 2002) when they were writing Deities & Demigods (April 2002).[sarcasm] :rolleyes:
Archangel_James 06-09-06, 05:24 PM	I like how the deities are statted. It works perfectly in any game that I run. I don't want to run a game above level 20, and I simply won't run one above 25. In my current game (party level 10), there is a level 40 NPC (but he's a pacifist, so he doesn't spoil the encounters), and he is dangerously close to ascension. If ascension, death, or retirement doesn't kick in before 40th level, play deities by ear and don't use the stats. Unless you're specifically going for a deicidal campaign, the players should never reach the level of the gods.