Calculating LA [Archive] - Wizards Community

Calculating LA [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Drahau
08-19-07, 02:18 PM Sorry to disturb you guys but I don;t have all the books yet.
One of my players has Fiend Folio and decided to play as a Maug (LA +3, ECL +5) Which is wayyyyy overpacked. Now we had a little discussion and he decided to have those traits:

- Construct Traits (worth la+1)
- Large Size
- Str +10, Int +2, Cha -2,
- Natural Slam attack 1k10
- Rapid Repair (same as Maug)
- Skills (same as Maug)
- SR 14 + lvl
- +7 Natural AC

How much of an LA/ECL would that give? Any ideas how to reduce LA?
sensestaker
08-19-07, 04:20 PM So basically you just removed the Dex bonus and penalized Cha? That won't give you any LA relief.

If you want to really bring it down, I'd suggest scaling it down to 1 racial HD and size Med (weakens abilities, nat. armor, nat attacks, reach, etc) and drop the SR to 11+HD. This will still probably be an LA of +2: +1 for ability scores and nat attack, +1 for SR and nat armor, +0 for construct traits since they are balanced out by not having a Con score (he's going to miss those HP)
Drahau
08-19-07, 04:28 PM So the stats: (taking 10 as base)

Str 20
Dex 10
Con --
Wis 10
Int 12
Cha 8

HP 1k10 + 30 (large size still)
AC 10 + 5 (natural, reduced from 7)
SR 11 + HD
Natural Attack : Slam 1k10
Special : Rapid Repair
Skills: As Maug

LA +2 ?
sensestaker
08-19-07, 05:09 PM The problem with the Maug is that it is, in my opinion, the most under-LA'd creation outside the Anthropomorphic Animals from SS, and I LOVE giving too much stuff for too little LA. It really should start out as an LA of +4.

Really, the important questions that I should have asked at first are what level will you be starting at, what LA are you looking for, what power level do you play at, and what is the experiance and optimization ability of the other players?

The last alteration you posted would probably works as a +2 if you have a strong, experianced group with no problems, but if you play low-magic, or have a inexperianced group, it might be overpowered.
Drahau
08-19-07, 05:32 PM Well we are playing low magic. But not too low.
The group I'm working with are very exped players who played more than one campaign. They optimize their characters to the bone. As for me, I'm looking for a tanker construct of outsider type (6skill points + int per level makes your character much more interesting, eg. investing in CC knowledges like Architecture, Geography or other stuff you wouldn't put your SK into). Hence the SR. Since any outsider can easily by banished no ? Unless it's a native outsider but it's a bit confusing. Can an outsider become a native outsider ?
Anyway, LA +2 Works perfectly. Since +4 (as for the Maug) makes playing such character very difficult. Especially the missing HP / Attack bonus. For example, 1st level Maug can be easily taken down by his ECL dwarven warrior. 1st lvl Maug vs 6th Level dwarf warrior gets pwned. Anyway, that's why I'm talking about:
- Low LA
- Natural Attack
- Large Size
- Outsider Skill point gain
- Some Natural armor (more than 3 but not enough to give it LA just for that)
- And well, Rapid Repair, since Constructs generally have problems in "healing"
sensestaker
08-19-07, 05:53 PM Given what you've said, the last set of mods you posted should work fine for LA +2 with the possible exception of the Construct bonus HP. The first couple of levels you might be pretty tough, but they should balance out over time. And you know that you only get Outsider skill points for Outsider HD, so you'd only be getting standard class skill points for any char levels.
Drahau
08-19-07, 06:01 PM Dang. So then I'd make a native construct. That could cancel out the SR, then I could raise the natural AC or ... ? Any ideas ?
sensestaker
08-19-07, 06:18 PM If you can play a size large race with +10 Str, +2 Int, -2 Cha, 30 "free" hp, SR, +5 natural armor and a 1d10 natural attack you'll be doing pretty well for a LA of +2. If you want lots of skill points, just put a bunch of points into Int, or play a Ranger.
Drahau
08-19-07, 07:07 PM Well I'll be reducing it to medium size. That would give me the same stats as above but 10 less HP.
The character I'm thinking about is 2m to 2.5m
That's still medium if I'm correct.
Allas , how could I make up for the HP loss ?
sensestaker
08-19-07, 07:22 PM Allas , how could I make up for the HP loss ?

Really good AC.

That's the weakness of playing a construct-they're screwed for HP.

You could see if the DM will allow what I do for constructs-give them max HP. After all, who would make something with only 50% durability, especially a war oriented thing like a maug? This would effectively give you a Con score of about 18-not great for a tank, but you'll be immune to crits, sneak attacks and whatnot, so it sort of balances.
Drahau
08-19-07, 07:33 PM Hmm that's a good idea and a very good point. Rolling for construct is a bit silly.

So in the end:
HP 10+20 (Medium)

Str +10
Dex +/- 0
Con -- (each level +10 Hp)
Int +2
Wis +/- 0
Cha -2

Construct Traits
Speed 30 ft (can run, I find constructs not being able to run a very stupid idea, since a ranger with a bag of +3 arrows can take as many iron golems as he likes, since he is faster ect. You get the point)
Spell Resistance 11 + lvl
Natural Slam Attack 1k10 (I thing so, but can be reduced to 1k8)
Natural AC +5 (I think it's balanced)
Special : Rapid Repair

Racial Skills:
Craft (Masonery)
Knowlege (Architecture)
Listen
Spot
Survival
Profession (Soldier)
Profession Siege(Engeneer)

Total of LA +2

Wootness?
sensestaker
08-19-07, 07:47 PM 1d10 slam damage is pretty high for Med (1d6 is more usual) but other than that looks good-at least to me, and I don't really have any say :D
Drahau
08-19-07, 07:51 PM Well a large Maug has a slam of 1d10, Warforged of 1d4, and Iron Golem of 2d10. I was thinking 1d10 since it's damn useful then. Or 1k8 for balance and those out of weapons situations (eg. Bar Fight! or Prision Break blah blah...)
Drahau
08-20-07, 06:34 AM DELETED
Drahau
08-20-07, 06:40 AM Titan

HP 10+20 (Medium Construct )
Str +10
Dex +/- 0
Con -- (each level +10 Hp)
Int +2
Wis +/- 0
Cha -2

Construct Traits
Speed 30 ft (can run)
Spell Resistance 11 + lvl
Lightning Quiver
Natural Slam Attack 1k8
Natural AC +5
Special : Rapid Repair
Medium Fortification: A Titan has a soul gem buried deep within it's body. If it cracks the Titan dies. However the massive body of stone protects the gem quite well. Hence the weak spot.

Racial Skills:
Craft (Masonery) (+4)
Knowledge (Architecture) (+4)
Listen
Spot
Profession (Soldier)
Profession Siege(Engeneer)

Notes:
Rapid Repair: While resting a successful Craft Masonery check (DC 15) recovers 2hp/h. Failed 1hp/h

Lightning quiver:
A Titan can generate a lightning that is counted as a thrown weapon dealing 1d8 (Strenght bonus is applied) or serve as a melee weapon dealing 1d10 damage. Titan can use this ability 4 times per day. The unused shots
accumulate to a maximum of 20.
This ability can be enhanced by a mage for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Total of LA +2

Appearance:

A Titan appears as a 2to 2.5m tall human stone statue (6.5 to 8ft) wearing a black iron breastplate. What's interesting is the
fact that instead of plate hip guards they use a scale mail quilt. The helmet resembles a roman centurion helmet. The typical color other than black is dark yellow. It is used to ornament the armor or the helmet. Facial features are very distinctive. As strange as this can be those constructs can mimic
emotions but they not often choose to.

Background:

The truth is Titans were construced long ago by an archmage who seeked shelter from the ever pursuing him royal Army. The reason for this was the Mage's involvement in some royal family affairs. The rest remains unknown.

Titans construct and live in massive stone castles at the top of mountain ranges. Commoners speak of them as
cloud castles since almost all the time clouds are beneath or covering them.
Titans live a semi peaceful life, eventually defending their territory from hostile creatures.
If one wants to pass, a payment in gems is required. It is suspected that Titans then use those gems to
create more of their kind.
Sometimes they wander through the land seeking gems or gold. They hire themselves as mercenaries to any one who has enough gold or gems and dosen't intend on slaughtering a city. It is said that the Archmage seeded morality within them but some of them form war bands roaming the land taking anything they desire. Perhaps they are the outcasts of their own society?

Society:
When a Titan is created the first thing he is told is his name, usually coming from a gem or mineral. He is fully aware of it's intelligence and existence but not the purpose. He is taken to the Overlord of the caste and later on the the stone library where he learns about his race, his past, his goals.
What is contained in this library is unknown. Titans tend to destroy everything when at loss.
Later on the Titan is trained in the art of war. The art of masonery and architecture is also thought to the young Titan
for the need of self repair or creating a castle later on.

Once the training is complete the Titan is allowed to leave the castle seeking it's destiny.
Very few of them choose to do so. In their own society those who wander and do not wait for the "Calling"
are said to be made out of damaged gem stones.

The Calling:
Titans are preparing for it. It's nature and cause are unknown. It's the Titan's deepest secret. However some of them
claim to already heard the Calling and they wander off. Some say it might be a fail safe system created by the mage or
maybe just a glitch in their production.
Whet ever it might be, Titans who heard it act very odd.
Examples:
- A Call saying "Go to the lake near a village and wait to see the moon's reflection"
- A Call saying "Go to a forest, count 1000 trees then mark the last one with a symbol..."

Classes:
Fighter - The most common and obvious choice for a Titan

Cleric - Rare but not unheard of. Since Titans posses inteligence, they
also can posses faith. Typically worshiping Kord or Fahrlang.

Druid - Unheard of, Titans as constructs feel no association with nature,
however few of them might.

Monk - Some. Some of titans decide to assign themselves to self
improvement while awaiting the "Calling"

Wizard - Rare. The elite of the Titans become mages, guardians of the
secret of their creation.

Sorcerer - Very Rare, only one in a thousand has the calling of magic.

Paladin - Rare, it could a Titan whos spark of morality turned into a
flame or he heard a calling

Rogue - Almost unheard of. Titan's spark of morality prevents him from
entering Rogue's playground of deciet and theievery.
However, some Titans put out that spark.

Ranger - Common. Many hoist their skill as a ranger, serving as backup for
the front line warriors.

Special Feats:
Lightning Arrow - Enables to use Lightning as an arrow dealing 1k8
electric damage

Expanded Quiver - Enables a titan to store 4 more shots.
This effect stacks.

Chain Lightning - If a creature is more or less 3ft from the target there
is a 50% chance of the lightning striking also that
target with half damage. (Requires: Base attack bonus of 5)

Improved Natural Armor - Improves natural armor by 1

Far Throw - Upgrades the range increasement for the Lightning throw.

Hardness - Grants +1Hp every level.

Gemmed - Adds +1 spell slot for a selected level, maximum spell
level is 6 (can be chosen only once)

Damage Reduction - Grants a 2/cold iron damage reduction (Requires
Hardness)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Drahau 08-19-07, 02:18 PM	Sorry to disturb you guys but I don;t have all the books yet. One of my players has Fiend Folio and decided to play as a Maug (LA +3, ECL +5) Which is wayyyyy overpacked. Now we had a little discussion and he decided to have those traits: - Construct Traits (worth la+1) - Large Size - Str +10, Int +2, Cha -2, - Natural Slam attack 1k10 - Rapid Repair (same as Maug) - Skills (same as Maug) - SR 14 + lvl - +7 Natural AC How much of an LA/ECL would that give? Any ideas how to reduce LA?
sensestaker 08-19-07, 04:20 PM	So basically you just removed the Dex bonus and penalized Cha? That won't give you any LA relief. If you want to really bring it down, I'd suggest scaling it down to 1 racial HD and size Med (weakens abilities, nat. armor, nat attacks, reach, etc) and drop the SR to 11+HD. This will still probably be an LA of +2: +1 for ability scores and nat attack, +1 for SR and nat armor, +0 for construct traits since they are balanced out by not having a Con score (he's going to miss those HP)
Drahau 08-19-07, 04:28 PM	So the stats: (taking 10 as base) Str 20 Dex 10 Con -- Wis 10 Int 12 Cha 8 HP 1k10 + 30 (large size still) AC 10 + 5 (natural, reduced from 7) SR 11 + HD Natural Attack : Slam 1k10 Special : Rapid Repair Skills: As Maug LA +2 ?
sensestaker 08-19-07, 05:09 PM	The problem with the Maug is that it is, in my opinion, the most under-LA'd creation outside the Anthropomorphic Animals from SS, and I LOVE giving too much stuff for too little LA. It really should start out as an LA of +4. Really, the important questions that I should have asked at first are what level will you be starting at, what LA are you looking for, what power level do you play at, and what is the experiance and optimization ability of the other players? The last alteration you posted would probably works as a +2 if you have a strong, experianced group with no problems, but if you play low-magic, or have a inexperianced group, it might be overpowered.
Drahau 08-19-07, 05:32 PM	Well we are playing low magic. But not too low. The group I'm working with are very exped players who played more than one campaign. They optimize their characters to the bone. As for me, I'm looking for a tanker construct of outsider type (6skill points + int per level makes your character much more interesting, eg. investing in CC knowledges like Architecture, Geography or other stuff you wouldn't put your SK into). Hence the SR. Since any outsider can easily by banished no ? Unless it's a native outsider but it's a bit confusing. Can an outsider become a native outsider ? Anyway, LA +2 Works perfectly. Since +4 (as for the Maug) makes playing such character very difficult. Especially the missing HP / Attack bonus. For example, 1st level Maug can be easily taken down by his ECL dwarven warrior. 1st lvl Maug vs 6th Level dwarf warrior gets pwned. Anyway, that's why I'm talking about: - Low LA - Natural Attack - Large Size - Outsider Skill point gain - Some Natural armor (more than 3 but not enough to give it LA just for that) - And well, Rapid Repair, since Constructs generally have problems in "healing"
sensestaker 08-19-07, 05:53 PM	Given what you've said, the last set of mods you posted should work fine for LA +2 with the possible exception of the Construct bonus HP. The first couple of levels you might be pretty tough, but they should balance out over time. And you know that you only get Outsider skill points for Outsider HD, so you'd only be getting standard class skill points for any char levels.
Drahau 08-19-07, 06:01 PM	Dang. So then I'd make a native construct. That could cancel out the SR, then I could raise the natural AC or ... ? Any ideas ?
sensestaker 08-19-07, 06:18 PM	If you can play a size large race with +10 Str, +2 Int, -2 Cha, 30 "free" hp, SR, +5 natural armor and a 1d10 natural attack you'll be doing pretty well for a LA of +2. If you want lots of skill points, just put a bunch of points into Int, or play a Ranger.
Drahau 08-19-07, 07:07 PM	Well I'll be reducing it to medium size. That would give me the same stats as above but 10 less HP. The character I'm thinking about is 2m to 2.5m That's still medium if I'm correct. Allas , how could I make up for the HP loss ?
sensestaker 08-19-07, 07:22 PM	Allas , how could I make up for the HP loss ? Really good AC. That's the weakness of playing a construct-they're screwed for HP. You could see if the DM will allow what I do for constructs-give them max HP. After all, who would make something with only 50% durability, especially a war oriented thing like a maug? This would effectively give you a Con score of about 18-not great for a tank, but you'll be immune to crits, sneak attacks and whatnot, so it sort of balances.
Drahau 08-19-07, 07:33 PM	Hmm that's a good idea and a very good point. Rolling for construct is a bit silly. So in the end: HP 10+20 (Medium) Str +10 Dex +/- 0 Con -- (each level +10 Hp) Int +2 Wis +/- 0 Cha -2 Construct Traits Speed 30 ft (can run, I find constructs not being able to run a very stupid idea, since a ranger with a bag of +3 arrows can take as many iron golems as he likes, since he is faster ect. You get the point) Spell Resistance 11 + lvl Natural Slam Attack 1k10 (I thing so, but can be reduced to 1k8) Natural AC +5 (I think it's balanced) Special : Rapid Repair Racial Skills: Craft (Masonery) Knowlege (Architecture) Listen Spot Survival Profession (Soldier) Profession Siege(Engeneer) Total of LA +2 Wootness?
sensestaker 08-19-07, 07:47 PM	1d10 slam damage is pretty high for Med (1d6 is more usual) but other than that looks good-at least to me, and I don't really have any say :D
Drahau 08-19-07, 07:51 PM	Well a large Maug has a slam of 1d10, Warforged of 1d4, and Iron Golem of 2d10. I was thinking 1d10 since it's damn useful then. Or 1k8 for balance and those out of weapons situations (eg. Bar Fight! or Prision Break blah blah...)
Drahau 08-20-07, 06:34 AM	DELETED
Drahau 08-20-07, 06:40 AM	Titan HP 10+20 (Medium Construct ) Str +10 Dex +/- 0 Con -- (each level +10 Hp) Int +2 Wis +/- 0 Cha -2 Construct Traits Speed 30 ft (can run) Spell Resistance 11 + lvl Lightning Quiver Natural Slam Attack 1k8 Natural AC +5 Special : Rapid Repair Medium Fortification: A Titan has a soul gem buried deep within it's body. If it cracks the Titan dies. However the massive body of stone protects the gem quite well. Hence the weak spot. Racial Skills: Craft (Masonery) (+4) Knowledge (Architecture) (+4) Listen Spot Profession (Soldier) Profession Siege(Engeneer) Notes: Rapid Repair: While resting a successful Craft Masonery check (DC 15) recovers 2hp/h. Failed 1hp/h Lightning quiver: A Titan can generate a lightning that is counted as a thrown weapon dealing 1d8 (Strenght bonus is applied) or serve as a melee weapon dealing 1d10 damage. Titan can use this ability 4 times per day. The unused shots accumulate to a maximum of 20. This ability can be enhanced by a mage for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Total of LA +2 Appearance: A Titan appears as a 2to 2.5m tall human stone statue (6.5 to 8ft) wearing a black iron breastplate. What's interesting is the fact that instead of plate hip guards they use a scale mail quilt. The helmet resembles a roman centurion helmet. The typical color other than black is dark yellow. It is used to ornament the armor or the helmet. Facial features are very distinctive. As strange as this can be those constructs can mimic emotions but they not often choose to. Background: The truth is Titans were construced long ago by an archmage who seeked shelter from the ever pursuing him royal Army. The reason for this was the Mage's involvement in some royal family affairs. The rest remains unknown. Titans construct and live in massive stone castles at the top of mountain ranges. Commoners speak of them as cloud castles since almost all the time clouds are beneath or covering them. Titans live a semi peaceful life, eventually defending their territory from hostile creatures. If one wants to pass, a payment in gems is required. It is suspected that Titans then use those gems to create more of their kind. Sometimes they wander through the land seeking gems or gold. They hire themselves as mercenaries to any one who has enough gold or gems and dosen't intend on slaughtering a city. It is said that the Archmage seeded morality within them but some of them form war bands roaming the land taking anything they desire. Perhaps they are the outcasts of their own society? Society: When a Titan is created the first thing he is told is his name, usually coming from a gem or mineral. He is fully aware of it's intelligence and existence but not the purpose. He is taken to the Overlord of the caste and later on the the stone library where he learns about his race, his past, his goals. What is contained in this library is unknown. Titans tend to destroy everything when at loss. Later on the Titan is trained in the art of war. The art of masonery and architecture is also thought to the young Titan for the need of self repair or creating a castle later on. Once the training is complete the Titan is allowed to leave the castle seeking it's destiny. Very few of them choose to do so. In their own society those who wander and do not wait for the "Calling" are said to be made out of damaged gem stones. The Calling: Titans are preparing for it. It's nature and cause are unknown. It's the Titan's deepest secret. However some of them claim to already heard the Calling and they wander off. Some say it might be a fail safe system created by the mage or maybe just a glitch in their production. Whet ever it might be, Titans who heard it act very odd. Examples: - A Call saying "Go to the lake near a village and wait to see the moon's reflection" - A Call saying "Go to a forest, count 1000 trees then mark the last one with a symbol..." Classes: Fighter - The most common and obvious choice for a Titan Cleric - Rare but not unheard of. Since Titans posses inteligence, they also can posses faith. Typically worshiping Kord or Fahrlang. Druid - Unheard of, Titans as constructs feel no association with nature, however few of them might. Monk - Some. Some of titans decide to assign themselves to self improvement while awaiting the "Calling" Wizard - Rare. The elite of the Titans become mages, guardians of the secret of their creation. Sorcerer - Very Rare, only one in a thousand has the calling of magic. Paladin - Rare, it could a Titan whos spark of morality turned into a flame or he heard a calling Rogue - Almost unheard of. Titan's spark of morality prevents him from entering Rogue's playground of deciet and theievery. However, some Titans put out that spark. Ranger - Common. Many hoist their skill as a ranger, serving as backup for the front line warriors. Special Feats: Lightning Arrow - Enables to use Lightning as an arrow dealing 1k8 electric damage Expanded Quiver - Enables a titan to store 4 more shots. This effect stacks. Chain Lightning - If a creature is more or less 3ft from the target there is a 50% chance of the lightning striking also that target with half damage. (Requires: Base attack bonus of 5) Improved Natural Armor - Improves natural armor by 1 Far Throw - Upgrades the range increasement for the Lightning throw. Hardness - Grants +1Hp every level. Gemmed - Adds +1 spell slot for a selected level, maximum spell level is 6 (can be chosen only once) Damage Reduction - Grants a 2/cold iron damage reduction (Requires Hardness)