calculating party lvl [Archive] - Wizards Community

calculating party lvl [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
somogyi
11-02-06, 02:11 PM the way it is done in the dmg (add up char lvls then divide by number of chars) isnt balenced imo. u could take a party of 10 1st lvl chars and it would be a first lvl party. or 10 5th lvl chars for that matter. is there anyone else that thinks this or is it just me? if there is anyone out there that agrees with me wht are ur ideas if any to fix it. for example my party is 10+7+6+6=29. 29/4 is 7. my party can take cr 12 and 13 with realative ease.
Tyler Do'Urden
11-02-06, 02:19 PM Sounds like you've either miscalculated a level adjustment or two or you aren't playing CR 12s and 13s correctly.

I was going to suggest total levels divided by four (since the game seems to assume a 4 person party), but that won't solve your problem.
Tempest Stormwind
11-02-06, 02:22 PM the way it is done in the dmg (add up char lvls then divide by number of chars) isnt balenced imo. u could take a party of 10 1st lvl chars and it would be a first lvl party. or 10 5th lvl chars for that matter. is there anyone else that thinks this or is it just me? if there is anyone out there that agrees with me wht are ur ideas if any to fix it. for example my party is 10+7+6+6=29. 29/4 is 7. my party can take cr 12 and 13 with realative ease.You aren't seeing what party level actually does, are you?

It only factors in when determining XP.

Your party has a four-level spread -- and over time, the XP from high CR encounters will cause the lower-level characters to catch up to the higher-level ones.

Furthermore, the CR system is NOT meant as "a party of level 10s should be able to take a single CR 10 once a day" -- it's "a party of level 10s should be able to take four CR 10 encounters in one day without dying; a fifth would be stretching it but not impossible." Of course you can handle higher CR encounters -- but can you do it more than once in a day? (And is your DM playing the encounters smart enough? Sending an advanced illithid charging at the PCs in melee isn't exactly wise.)

It works. To a point, at least.

(EDIT: And I think Tyler might be on to something. A "level 10" in a party like this likely has an LA mis-applied somewhere.)
Seeker95
11-02-06, 02:24 PM u could take a party of 10 1st lvl chars and it would be a first lvl party.You could, and it would, but it would not be a CR/EL1 party.

Average party level assumes a party of four. If you have more than four characters (or less) then you need to adjust the EL of the party the same way you would adjust an encounter with two orcs instead of one.
pres_man
11-02-06, 02:28 PM the way it is done in the dmg (add up char lvls then divide by number of chars) isnt balenced imo.
Right, this is called finding the mean or average level of the party, I fail to see why it is not balanced.

u could take a party of 10 1st lvl chars and it would be a first lvl party. or 10 5th lvl chars for that matter.
Ah, so is the problem then with how does the CR/EL system work for unusually sized parties (=/= 4)? In the case of a party of 10 1st level characters, then the CRs should be used based on first level but the number of opponents should be increased by an appropriate factor (10/4 = 2.5 times as many creatures as a standard 1st level party would fight, but of the same difficulty).

is there anyone else that thinks this or is it just me? if there is anyone out there that agrees with me wht are ur ideas if any to fix it.
Thinks what? You haven't said what the problem is except that the system is somehow "unbalanced". I have suggest a way to deal with unusually sized parties, so I hope that helps.

for example my party is 10+7+6+6=29. 29/4 is 7. my party can take cr 12 and 13 with realative ease.
Well if they are able to handle CRs that much higher than maybe there are other issues at work here. How does their wealth compare to the standard, are they better off then they should be on average? Have they gotten some lucky rolls on HP? What about ability scores? Are their foes being played in a strategic fashion? There are lots of reasons why a particular group might be able to handle higher challenges then the average group could.
somogyi
11-02-06, 06:22 PM thanx for the input guys. i said my party, but really im the dm. as far as their wealth goes there is one character who has been in the game since the begining, so his wealth is higher than average i think. he has gotten his share of 3 dragon hoards. and yes i played the dragons well. the rest are new characters of players have just joined or have had chars die. i have had 5 characters die in the game so far ( its runing for about a year).
Onikani
11-02-06, 06:34 PM A properly played dragon should not only be a challenge for that party, but it should pretyy much wipe them out.

A young black dragon (the example in the MM - page 72) is a CR9. That is for a YOUNG dragon. Meaning that now it should be a fair challenge, but a level or two ago it should have been too much. so how they managed to kill 3 of them so quickly pretty much tells me one thing. :cool:

Also ask yourself this:
Does the party get to rest/heal/regain spells in between every encounter?
If the answer is yes then they can most likely easily take a CR 1.5x the party level as long as it is their only encounter per day.
But if they go through 4-5 such encounters a day then there is something very wrong somewhere.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
somogyi 11-02-06, 02:11 PM	the way it is done in the dmg (add up char lvls then divide by number of chars) isnt balenced imo. u could take a party of 10 1st lvl chars and it would be a first lvl party. or 10 5th lvl chars for that matter. is there anyone else that thinks this or is it just me? if there is anyone out there that agrees with me wht are ur ideas if any to fix it. for example my party is 10+7+6+6=29. 29/4 is 7. my party can take cr 12 and 13 with realative ease.
Tyler Do'Urden 11-02-06, 02:19 PM	Sounds like you've either miscalculated a level adjustment or two or you aren't playing CR 12s and 13s correctly. I was going to suggest total levels divided by four (since the game seems to assume a 4 person party), but that won't solve your problem.
Tempest Stormwind 11-02-06, 02:22 PM	the way it is done in the dmg (add up char lvls then divide by number of chars) isnt balenced imo. u could take a party of 10 1st lvl chars and it would be a first lvl party. or 10 5th lvl chars for that matter. is there anyone else that thinks this or is it just me? if there is anyone out there that agrees with me wht are ur ideas if any to fix it. for example my party is 10+7+6+6=29. 29/4 is 7. my party can take cr 12 and 13 with realative ease.You aren't seeing what party level actually does, are you? It only factors in when determining XP. Your party has a four-level spread -- and over time, the XP from high CR encounters will cause the lower-level characters to catch up to the higher-level ones. Furthermore, the CR system is NOT meant as "a party of level 10s should be able to take a single CR 10 once a day" -- it's "a party of level 10s should be able to take four CR 10 encounters in one day without dying; a fifth would be stretching it but not impossible." Of course you can handle higher CR encounters -- but can you do it more than once in a day? (And is your DM playing the encounters smart enough? Sending an advanced illithid charging at the PCs in melee isn't exactly wise.) It works. To a point, at least. (EDIT: And I think Tyler might be on to something. A "level 10" in a party like this likely has an LA mis-applied somewhere.)
Seeker95 11-02-06, 02:24 PM	u could take a party of 10 1st lvl chars and it would be a first lvl party.You could, and it would, but it would not be a CR/EL1 party. Average party level assumes a party of four. If you have more than four characters (or less) then you need to adjust the EL of the party the same way you would adjust an encounter with two orcs instead of one.
pres_man 11-02-06, 02:28 PM	the way it is done in the dmg (add up char lvls then divide by number of chars) isnt balenced imo. Right, this is called finding the mean or average level of the party, I fail to see why it is not balanced. u could take a party of 10 1st lvl chars and it would be a first lvl party. or 10 5th lvl chars for that matter. Ah, so is the problem then with how does the CR/EL system work for unusually sized parties (=/= 4)? In the case of a party of 10 1st level characters, then the CRs should be used based on first level but the number of opponents should be increased by an appropriate factor (10/4 = 2.5 times as many creatures as a standard 1st level party would fight, but of the same difficulty). is there anyone else that thinks this or is it just me? if there is anyone out there that agrees with me wht are ur ideas if any to fix it. Thinks what? You haven't said what the problem is except that the system is somehow "unbalanced". I have suggest a way to deal with unusually sized parties, so I hope that helps. for example my party is 10+7+6+6=29. 29/4 is 7. my party can take cr 12 and 13 with realative ease. Well if they are able to handle CRs that much higher than maybe there are other issues at work here. How does their wealth compare to the standard, are they better off then they should be on average? Have they gotten some lucky rolls on HP? What about ability scores? Are their foes being played in a strategic fashion? There are lots of reasons why a particular group might be able to handle higher challenges then the average group could.
somogyi 11-02-06, 06:22 PM	thanx for the input guys. i said my party, but really im the dm. as far as their wealth goes there is one character who has been in the game since the begining, so his wealth is higher than average i think. he has gotten his share of 3 dragon hoards. and yes i played the dragons well. the rest are new characters of players have just joined or have had chars die. i have had 5 characters die in the game so far ( its runing for about a year).
Onikani 11-02-06, 06:34 PM	A properly played dragon should not only be a challenge for that party, but it should pretyy much wipe them out. A young black dragon (the example in the MM - page 72) is a CR9. That is for a YOUNG dragon. Meaning that now it should be a fair challenge, but a level or two ago it should have been too much. so how they managed to kill 3 of them so quickly pretty much tells me one thing. :cool: Also ask yourself this: Does the party get to rest/heal/regain spells in between every encounter? If the answer is yes then they can most likely easily take a CR 1.5x the party level as long as it is their only encounter per day. But if they go through 4-5 such encounters a day then there is something very wrong somewhere.