Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ingolfson 10-28-03, 11:36 AM	Hello everyone! I'd like your input on a certain campaign problem of mine, if I may: I'm pretty experienced in DMing (maybe 15 years gaming, 99% of the time als DM). But right now, I am mastering the first campaign of mine that enters higher (10+) levels. The problem is twofold: A) to challenge the players, I have to throw more lethal things/monsters at them. That meanwhile, has caused character fatalities to go up strongly, since its more difficult to be balanced when successful hits easily do 20+ maximum damage... B) The problem is increased by the fact that one of my players is a real goldbricker - meaning he uses every means at his disposal to make his character (a combat-oriented cleric) as invulnerable as possible. He's always casting everything possible to protect himself first, and also, during his adventures, he has managed to acquire a full plate giving him +10 AC and a cloak of minor displacement. Basically, his AC is almost always 5-10 points better than group average, and he comes out of many hard fights with nary a scratch. So what am I to do? To challenge the group and especially that player, I have to use lethal monsters. But those monsters tend to wreak much more havoc on other PCs who cross their way. I can't always let them focus suicidally on the one cleric and still remain neutral as a DM. I have tried various means: attacking them when they were asleep (and the cleric thus didn't wear his armor) attacking them with beings/attacks that ignore armor etc... but all those were just short-term solutions. I have been trying to slowly up the rest of the group to his power level, but unless I singlehandedly give them (and them only) more power, it seems he will remain significantly stronger than them, especially as he further progresses in level. Any ideas considered. I am - well, not desperate - but certainly concerned, as this has been putting some stress on my campaign, and it has caused some tension between my players. Ingolfson
DMgangster 10-28-03, 01:14 PM	I'll answere B first. b) magic gets past those AC's real easy, sleep, web, hold person, confusion, fireball, lightning bolt. multiple battles, if the cleric like to stack up the Buffs in battles, then throw another battle during the later part of the day before the cleric can regain the use of spells. it will make him/her rethink the use of their spells and conserve them for a greater use. A) this all depends on how your campaign is going. there is several ways to challenge the players without just throwing monster after monster at them. in town mysterys, investigations, befriending a guide that will lead you to something, resuce and protection of some creature that will help you. make the players use a wide range of skills and feats in order to defeat something, not just a weapon.
ingolfson 10-28-03, 02:31 PM	Thanks for your ideas DMgangster. Still, I didn't want to imply that I only use monsters to challenge my players. I do have entire sessions where no combat happens. But WHEN I have combat, I face the problem of challenging all my players, without overdoing it, or making it too easy for that cleric. Series of battles won't help me there. After a few of thse, he may be all 'spelled out' - but since he uses healing spells on himself liberally too, he will still be one of the healthiest characters around at that time - and still have a higher AC than the others. Same problem. But you're probably right that I should use more magic against him. Had some nice effects with 'Dispel Magic' already... :-)
Chris24601 10-28-03, 03:15 PM	How do you deal with him? Two words... RUST MONSTER. My personal favorite is to have an evil villain cast improved invisibility upon a buch of rust monsters and turn them loose on a party. Then just don't give them a chance to escape and regroup. If the party is too tough to be challenged by rust monsters get out the big guns and use a disenchanter or five. Nothing makes a party panic like the thought of losing their magic items. For that matter incorporeal creatures or any other type that makes frequent use of touch attacks will probably do fairly well against the cleric. Since touch attacks ignore most armors it should put all the party members on a more even footing. So send them into a crypt loaded with incorporeal undead and enjoy.
Zherog 10-28-03, 03:19 PM	Dispel Magic, as you said. It is not unreasonable for an enemy cleric or wizard to begin combat with an area dispel. Brilliant Energy Weapons. Granted, using them often would seem contrived. But for an occassional encounter, it has benefits. Creatures that are incorpreal (I'm sure I botched the spelling of that). Create a "mirror" to be the bad guy for one session. I can speak from experience - it can be quite humbling for a player to get his (or her) butt kicked by an NPC built very similar to his (or her) own character.
ingolfson 10-28-03, 03:38 PM	That suit of full plate is large, flaming red and surely would taste great to a rust monster. Only problem with that: like all/most goldbrickers, the player in question is also a whiner. He would complain endlessly about me using a rust monster specially targeted on him. Maybe drop out of the campaign, if he is angry enough (and I'm not yet ready to want to risk that, since he's still a friend of mine, after all). Also, the last time I used a rust monster, all I got was collateral damage. The only magic item destroyed was the breastplate of another guy - that being his ONLY magic item. I like the 'brilliant' idea. But the weapon would have to be evil (negative-level-providing) or my players would just snap it up and add it to their arsenal.
Zherog 10-28-03, 03:47 PM	Originally posted by ingolfson I like the 'brilliant' idea. But the weapon would have to be evil (negative-level-providing) or my players would just snap it up and add it to their arsenal. But of course! :smirk: :devil: As I said, though - it really only works once, or it's contrived. The other option other than evil is to use an exotic weapon one of them is not proficient in. Then, of course, they can sell it, or use it if they want to invest the personal resources.
jasper 10-28-03, 04:03 PM	so he is whiner. Treat as nothing special. Don't go out of the way to target him. Don't go out of the way to miss him. Remember if the battle is cake walk for the party you can lessen the x.p. given out. Talk to him about his whining. If he doesn't improve, just tell him he can't play D&D with you any more. If he leaves and never comes back, he was not your friend. Also has the rest of group gotten tired of goldbricker? Gee thanks cleric this the fifth time we had raise the paladin this week. Could you at least stablize him first before you treat your paper cut.
sanishiver 10-28-03, 04:32 PM	Originally posted by jasper Also has the rest of group gotten tired of goldbricker? Gee thanks cleric this the fifth time we had raise the paladin this week. Could you at least stablize him first before you treat your paper cut. And to extend the idea a bit more: does he even heal other party members? From what you (ingolfson) have said, it sounds like the Cleric keeps enough spells in reserve to heal himself the few times he does get hit. Thus, he ought to be able to patch up (if not fully heal) the other PC's. Maybe you ought to speak to the other players and see if a little peer pressure can by applied by them to get the Cleric to help the rest of the party (read: Be a Team player). Hopefully this will cut down on the frequent death issue. Also, what level is the Cleric and the rest of the party? Any non-standard PC races used, etc..? :whatsthis
Cog 10-28-03, 04:44 PM	Dispel Magic would work. How about using his goldbricking against him? FullPlate +3. Really nice! He'd love to get his hands on that. Did you forget to mention that it's cursed and there's a personality in it? I really don't like that shield. I want a shiny one made of gold. I can be the only magical armour you wear. Did you know I used to be a wizard? Can you get rid of that filthy weapon and get me a nice dagger? :devil:
Cog 10-28-03, 04:47 PM	Or you can have a thief come along and nick it. You can nick the armour off someone's back if the roll is high enough.... ;) The other thing is fudging the roles. He doesn't have to be hit that often, because when he does, it'll be a critical. Don't take all his toys away. Just take them away once a month... ;)
PhaedrusXY 10-28-03, 04:51 PM	Originally posted by ingolfson I like the 'brilliant' idea. But the weapon would have to be evil (negative-level-providing) or my players would just snap it up and add it to their arsenal. My old DM liked to throw drow at us all the time. They are nasty, nasty villains with all their sneakiness, ambushing tactics, spell resistance, penchance to have magic users of their own, etc. On top of that, in older versions of the game they usually used magic items that were unstable and would break down into dust after they'd been removed from their native underdark environment. So we'd go through these hellacious fights and get absolutely nothing for it, but exp and a hard time. :behold: Also, in one game I joined, my PC was the most min/maxed in the group. The DM had told me it was fine to min/max and make a powerful character, and that all of the other characters were powerful and min/maxed also, but I think he underestimated my munchin powers. :smirk: So he is now in the business of trying to even out the power ratio in the game by giving the other characters boons to bring them up to par. He told me he's doing this, and I don't care. I wouldn't even care much if he wanted to take some of my magic items. But it also wouldn't matter much to my character, as his power is from the way he's built more than his magic items. Anyway, you could try talking it over with the player. There have also been some decent suggestions offered in this thread.
Cog 10-28-03, 04:56 PM	How about tithing? How about his god decides the cleric needs a lesson in humility. Perhaps the God "suggests" the cleric sell his armour to provide money for the poor..... In "Pools of radiance", there is an artifact you find which, if you decide to keep it, makes you tithe half of your earnings. Just do one that he'll want, but makes him Tithe half of his current worth...
Dasein 10-28-03, 07:11 PM	First, is this cleric abusing the rules, or does he simply understand how to stack buff spells and play his character intelligently? It could be that the rest of the party isn't playing up to their potential and thus what is really needed is for the rest of the party to get up to speed on the rules. Second, if this player is, indeed, abusing the rules, try to correct the problem out of game, as it would seem to be a problem with the player and not the character. Dasein
Ogre Mage 10-29-03, 01:50 AM	Clerics have notoriously poor reflex saves. This could give the rogue, bard, ranger and monk a chance to shine if they are in the party.
ingolfson 10-29-03, 03:07 AM	No, he's not abusing the rules, just min/maxing as much as he can. And some of the other players - well, to them, showing up and having some fun is what its all about - I won't get them to think too deeply about min/maxing their own PCs. Anyway, thanks for the various leads. I have a good idea how to include a 'brilliant'-weapon during one of the next few sessions.