Post/Author/DateTime	Post
celestialkin 11-26-07, 12:06 AM	“Good friends are reliable, close family members stand by your side, and a well-chosen mate might die to protect you, but only a kobold tribe serves without fail.” —Vignarthurkear, a blue dragon giving advice to one of her hatchlings I remembered reading this quote, and I began to wonder if chromatic dragons (or any other evil creature) could "love" another, like we generally do. Would one be willing to die for it's mate/lover? If so, would it simply do it out of responsibility, or would it do it out of love for the other creature? Does having cruel intentions for other races mean that you can't care deeply about a few people/creatures close to you, such as family members or close friends? Could a usually evil creature even grow to "love" other creatures, like the lioness in Africa who adopted a Gazelle baby as her own instead of eating it? Could such feelings eventually even turn such evil creatures good (or at least neutral)?
Conchobaer 11-26-07, 01:00 AM	Hello, Love is not mutually exclusive to a 'good' alignment, but I would generally say that an 'evil' character would be more inclined toward lust. However, there is room for love in any well created/played evil character. I have heard stories from my friends of Tiamat falling in love and becoming impregnated by mortals in their campaigns. So I would say that a red dragon could love. Signed, Conchobaer
TheAnthroDM 11-26-07, 02:39 AM	Love is not exclusive to any alignment. It would be unrealistic to say that evil creatures can't love, but since this is Dungeons and Dragons and thus a fantasy game, you can go ahead and be unrealistic.
Novacat 11-26-07, 03:22 AM	It's a ridiculous question, which I think the OP spent no time contemplating. On a related subject, I have heard of theories regarding Bahamut and Tiamat being lovers, even though their philosophies are mutually opposed. I don't know if they are founded in anything official, but it would definitely make for some interesting campaign material.
Daybreaker 11-26-07, 03:55 AM	Evil beings can love, I think. But they generally don't deal with it very well. They're probably more possessive, jealous, and paranoid than good beings, even though they might be perfectly pleasant to the object of their love.
keepu 11-26-07, 04:32 AM	All I have to do is consider what I'd do to someone who hurt my family, and I can understand how someone can be evil and still love.
Seeker95 11-26-07, 09:50 AM	I remembered reading this quote, and I began to wonder if chromatic dragons (or any other evil creature) could "love" another, like we generally do. Would one be willing to die for it's mate/lover?Yes. Love is not alignment-dependent. Evil *might* be more willing (than Good) to sacrifice the loved for the Self, but that has less to do with the alignment than with the personality.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 11-26-07, 01:38 PM	That is as absurd a question as "can a good creature feel anger" or "can a neutral creature feel anything". Love is an emotion. Alignment is a philosophy. The two are not mutually exclusive. An evil alignment might influence how and what one loves, but it does not preclude it.
The_Shaman 11-26-07, 02:03 PM	I will join the majority: an evil creature can love, and make a sacrifice in the name of such love. While such devoted love may be rarer among evil creatures than among good ones, it is certainly not impossible. I recently read Dragons of Faerun and it mentions a few chromatics who have lasting attachments and are willing to help the other because of their feelings, not their own interest. There was iirc even one case of a white dragon who was grew extremely fond of the wizard who used her as a mount... to the point where she kept his dead body attached to the saddle when she flew, I believe. Of course, the minutae of how they perceive love and how they love are probably not what we'd expect. Then again, it's not like humans have an easy time agreeing on what love is, so different species are probably going to have much more different perspectives. Love would probably mean very different things, thoughts and behavior for a Gold Wyrm, for a drow, for a lizardman and for an eladrin.
Ranger REG 11-26-07, 02:18 PM	I remembered reading this quote, and I began to wonder if chromatic dragons (or any other evil creature) could "love" another, like we generally do. Generally, there are many forms of love. Would one be willing to die for it's mate/lover? If so, would it simply do it out of responsibility, or would it do it out of love for the other creature? One maybe, but generally most of them would rather save their own skin. There has to be an ulterior motive aside from love to put their life on the line. Does having cruel intentions for other races mean that you can't care deeply about a few people/creatures close to you, such as family members or close friends? Even among family members and/or close friends, there are many levels of care. Sometimes a father favor one of his sons. Sometimes a child looks to another adult as their ideal parental figure. Could a usually evil creature even grow to "love" other creatures, like the lioness in Africa who adopted a Gazelle baby as her own instead of eating it? Just as there can be a good drow ranger, it's possibly though rare can there be a good chromatic dragon.
Jarsallen 11-26-07, 02:19 PM	...but since this is Dungeons and Dragons and thus a fantasy game, you can go ahead and be unrealistic. Word.
Voran 11-26-07, 03:04 PM	I'd say the norm is that Chromatic Dragons, heck dragons in general, tend not to 'love each other'. I think its fair to say at a certain point in their life they're driven by the imperative to mate. They mate, have kids, possibly watch the kids for a bit, then each dragons individuality re-asserts itself and everyone goes to find their own lair. But its still like a bell curve distribution. The middle 80 percent does the usual: find a mate, have some kids, split. The upper 10 might maintain relationships, the lower 10 percent are the bitter angry ones that for whatever reason can't stand other dragons and don't really seek mates. I'm sure its possible for chromatic dragons to 'love', they aren't demons or devils after, they're sentient, super-bright (well...if you're not a White Dragon or one of the lesser ones) with alien mindsets but are still motivated by basic needs.
Narf_the_Mouse 11-26-07, 04:23 PM	My perspective on reality: The question boils down to 'Can evil love?'. And the answer is no. A purely-evil person cannot love, because love is selfless and pure evil is purely selfish. Any character who can be selfless enough to love is not wholy selfish and thus not wholy evil. However, in reality, there are very few people who would be pure evil. A pure evil person would have no regard for anyone but themselves and there are plenty of examples of followers of evil regimes dying for their country.
Balseraph 11-26-07, 04:30 PM	Sure. In fact I really like to use the 'tragic lover' stereotype once in a while for a villain. Count Strahd in Ravenloft is a good example of an evil being who is that way because of love, however misguided it may be. The other way to play it that I really like is the revenge angle. A young manwhose love is killed/taken from him and he vows that he will let nothing prevent his revenge. The anguished lover then goes to any length, including the truly depraved, to exact vengeance - caring not a whit for the suffering of others any more. Dragons, in particular, are intelligent creatures. As mentioned above, alignment does not change a being's emotions. It may well change how that being deals with those emotions though.
lastknightleft 11-26-07, 05:06 PM	yeah, trully obsesive, controlling, and abusive men and women do so all the time. Evil and Love are not mutually exclusive, but an evil character will more typically lean towards one of the three types mentioned above then a trully pure love, however love can lead to redemption, even of pure evil in my opinion.
Witch 11-26-07, 05:08 PM	Even demons or devils can love. Perhaps it's a twisted sense of love, but even such creatures can care for another, even though they might express it in distorted senses. Most creatures (that is, those that don't have the [Evil] subtype), however, can love like anyone else.
Narf_the_Mouse 11-26-07, 05:26 PM	To the extent to which a person in love is controlling or otherwise abusive, they are not in love. It is impossible, no matter what silly double-speak you use, to equate abuse with selfless caring.
LSMFT 11-26-07, 05:37 PM	I agree with Narf on this. To the extent to which a person in love is controlling or otherwise abusive, they are not in love. It is impossible, no matter what silly double-speak you use, to equate abuse with selfless caring. It depends on how you define evil. It depends on how you define love. In my opinion: Love is not some mere emotion that a person can feel. It isn't infatuation or lust or the giddy "lovey dovey" crap. It is a state of being. A sense of identification and unification with another being. A loss of self to a greater "we." (As a youth, I was subjected to far too much Hegel.*) Evil is selfishness. It can't even comprehend that feeling. When it says “love” it means desire, possession. It “loves” selfishly. And in all cases of selfish love, we can use a more appropriate descriptive word. Love is too often used hyperbolically. Lust is not Love Desire is not Love Jealousy is not Love Possession or the wanting to possess is not Love The problem is that using word Love to as a hyperbole to describe these and other things occurs so often (I love a good BLT!), that people seem to think they're synonymous. I don’t agree. Just my opinion though. The fact that you desire something doesn't mean you love it. The fact that you are willing to kill someone who took it isn't love either. Did Romeo kill himself because he loved Juliet? No - He was an idiot. This is not a stupid question. To say it is is to assume that everyone defines love and evil the same way you do. *Too much Hegel is defined as “any Hegel” in this case.
Nomad_the_Odd 11-26-07, 05:38 PM	Why can't evil love? We aren't speaking about pit fiends, we are talking about mortal beings. Dragons can be selfish, they can be cruel, and they cn be violent... and none of those would prevent love. Al Capone was a cold blooded killer. He was responsible for multiple deaths. He had people killed to increase profit. And He loved and cared for his wife. She was never even allowed to know what business he was in, for fear of her being hurt, physically or emotionally. Imagine this: A dragon (ignore the color, just imagine the shape and abilities and such) falls in love. We agree this is possible, at least for metallics, so the species is capable of it. The dragon does everything for it's mate. It Fights fiercly to protect it, it tortures people so that people are afraid to come near the mate's nest. It even goes so far as to raze a town for the dual purpose of removing a remote threat, and looting to make gifts. Are you denying that is love, or that is evil? It puts itself at risk, over the mate, and is murdering hundreds of people to remove unlikely but still possible threats and unpleasantness to it's love. Evil will be twisted, monstrous, and destructive, but can still feel the same emotions as anyone else. LSMFT says that love is a loss of self for unity. Even granting that, can't I be selfish and destructive in defense of that "we?" I now view that person as more important that life itself. Mine or yours. That's probably an evil viewpoint (as any paladin with a jerk DM can tell you), that this one life is worth murdering thousands of others. Sure, the dragon might give it's own life for it's mate, but it would much rather give yours.
Narf_the_Mouse 11-26-07, 05:50 PM	As I said, very few people are purely evil. However, the real test for an 'Al Capone' figure would be if their wife/girlfriend found out about their activities and went to the police.
Awesome_Dude 11-26-07, 05:55 PM	It depends on how you define love. In other words, what is love (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsCXZczTQXo)? This is the second time today I've had a chance to post this link. Thank you.
Witch 11-26-07, 06:14 PM	To the extent to which a person in love is controlling or otherwise abusive, they are not in love. It is impossible, no matter what silly double-speak you use, to equate abuse with selfless caring. Why? I won't give my own explanation since I don't have the time, but this is an example of infernal love, that does exactly that: However, there is one devil for whom Glasya does have actual feelings, although none know of it and even she refuses to admit it. Merorem the Darkwind, the powerful Grand Duke of the Ebon Vale, has witlessly drawn Glasya’s inhuman and unholy affections. Of course, being a devil, Glasya has no idea how to cope with her feelings and, as a result, toys mercilessly with the Darkwind’s own emotions. Glasya hopes, perversely, to push Merorem to the point of rape, knowing full well the implications for her status and, as importantly, her father’s reaction to such a violation. The source of this behavior is unknown, although it is possibly due to the manner in which she was conceived. In any event, this capacity to love – however perversely – makes Glasya unique in Hell. (...) Merorem's one weakness is the Princess Glasya. She has woven enchantments beyond mere magic into his mind, and torments him shamelessly. His lust for her drives him to a frenzy, and yet somehow he has managed to keep this knowledge from Hell at large. His current liege, Dispater, would likely destroy him were he to show such a lack of control, or perhaps from jealousy. Even more ominous is the Princess' father, King Asmodeus. The Darkwind knows all too well he cannot afford to risk his position for a base coupling, and yet in her presence, all logic vanishes. Her power and aura is intoxicating to him in ways that words cannot adequately describe. He longs to make her his own, to use her until she is no more, and to make her suffer the desires that torment his own being. It is a state beyond mere lust. Hellish love would be a more adequate description, although the twisted and evil passion of Merorem would hardly be classified as "love" by an outsider.
Awesome_Dude 11-26-07, 06:30 PM	That's adorable, Witch. Adorable in the same way as a puppy caught in a bear trap, granted, but adorable nonetheless.
Narf_the_Mouse 11-26-07, 06:40 PM	Aside from the fact that my example dealt with reality... It depends on whether the RAW allows a D&D fiend to not be evil. If so; One is not entirely selfish, so not entirely evil. The other is entirely selfish, so entirely evil. If not; Both are evil, but one is being affected by an intruding emotion that is not their own, rather like a form of mind control.
Nickpire84 11-26-07, 06:56 PM	The Draconomicon had a section on behaviour and mating amongst dragons and I could have sworn it says something about even Chromatic Dragons can and have fallen in love with another.
Nomad_the_Odd 11-26-07, 07:23 PM	To the extent to which a person in love is controlling or otherwise abusive, they are not in love. It is impossible, no matter what silly double-speak you use, to equate abuse with selfless caring. Also, those aren't necessarily traits of all evil. Many LE beings would consider doing any of those to be horrifying when applied to a spouse. That spouse might be all that keeps them from being truly monstrous, but I can love completely, and still be capable of acts that are without doubt evil. White dragons might have a problem with it, being fairly savage, but a green might not have any trouble at all. It might be violent and belligerent, but just as it probably doesn't attempt to beat the young that are maybe 3-4% it's size, it would be capable of excluding it's love from it's rage. It have a horrible temper, but it could have never even considered hurting it's mate. The thought just doesn't register. One exception to it's rage would still leave it wholly evil, just it values something other than treasure and itself. Yes, it might get jealous and possessive, but it doesn't make it less in love, just afraid of being left or replaced (a reasonable fear, for a green dragon). It's how it responds that tells more than just being jealous.
Narf_the_Mouse 11-26-07, 07:32 PM	Um...I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make.
Voran 11-26-07, 11:26 PM	Love, exciting and new Come Aboard. We're expecting you. Love, life's sweetest reward. Let it flow, it floats back to you. Love Boat soon will be making another run The Love Boat promises something for everyone Set a course for adventure, Your mind on a new romance. Love won't hurt anymore It's an open smile on a friendly shore. Yes LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE! It's LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE! (hey-ah!) Love Boat soon will be making another run The Love Boat promises something for everyone Set a course for adventure, Your mind on a new romance. Love won't hurt anymore It's an open smile on a friendly shore. It's LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE! It's LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE! It's LOOOOOOOOOOOVE! It's the Love Boat-ah! It's the Love Boat-ah!
CryoSilver 11-26-07, 11:39 PM	An evil character is fully capable of love. He could be the kindest, most caring lover in the world. It's just that his day job is slaughtering kittens and subjugating native peoples. Alignments are general trends, not straitjackets. A lawful good guy can get drunk and belligerent sometimes, an evil guy can give money to the poor, etc.
Narf_the_Mouse 11-27-07, 02:33 AM	People have good and evil in them. That much is obvious. Love is good. Very simple, from where I'm standing. A person can help those they love out of love and harm those they hate out of hate. What makes a pure evil person, in my opinion, are things like never feeling love, only hate.
calronmoonflower 11-27-07, 02:44 AM	People have good and evil in them. That much is obvious. Love is good. Very simple, from where I'm standing. A person can help those they love out of love and harm those they hate out of hate. What makes a pure evil person, in my opinion, are things like never feeling love, only hate. From the SRD Each alignment represents a broad range of personality types or personal philosophies, so two characters of the same alignment can still be quite different from each other. In addition, few people are completely consistent. In addition look up the succubus paladin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a) one the main site. She found love an afterward redemption (alignment change).
Voran 11-27-07, 04:57 AM	Actually. I'd say 'unconditional love' is good. "Regular" Love, varies. As we can see from the Mighty George Lucas, Love can lead to some pretty whacked out things. Things without souls can't love. I think in the context of the game that's fair to say. Things with souls, it varies, just like life.
Narf_the_Mouse 11-27-07, 06:48 PM	From the SRD In addition look up the succubus paladin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a) one the main site. She found love an afterward redemption (alignment change). And this contradicts me how? Just because an alignment says 'E' doesn't mean that the character is completely 'E'.
SweetZombieJesus 11-27-07, 11:28 PM	Love can be selfish. It can be posessive. It make people stalk, it can make them kill. It can make them force their lover into jealous rages to "test" their love. And that's just on TV.
CryoSilver 11-28-07, 12:05 AM	You are referring to obsession, not love.
Ranger REG 11-28-07, 01:45 AM	You are referring to obsession, not love. Not many can tell the difference between the two, unless one is on the outside looking in.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 11-28-07, 11:46 AM	As we can see from the Mighty George Lucas, Love can lead to some pretty whacked out things. Yeah, like making a really crappy prequel trilogy. ;)
Zanedor 11-28-07, 01:06 PM	The way I see it just because a being is evil doesn't mean that it can't love. As it was said before: alignment represents general trends in behaver. They could be the most passionate, caring and kind lover, it's just they enjoy burning towns, eating people, and causing mass destruction in general. But something that should be kept in mind is that we are talking about chromatic dragons so said lover is most likely evil too. So one of their romantic nights out would probably go like this: The male takes his mate out to a romantic dinner (in human form) at a really classy place: exotic food, candle lit table, fine china, vintage wine, romantic music, the works. Then when it comes time to pay the bill male stands up and says "Allow me.:devil: ". In the next 8 seconds all hell breaks lose as he drops the illusion and bits the waiter's head off. About 6 seconds later the restaurant is reduced to rubble and both dragons lay waste to the city :evillaugh . When they get home the female turns to her mate, smiles and says, “That was the best night of my life.:) ” And so ends a romantic evening for a pair of Red Dragons. The only problem is finding another place that serves black forest cake for desert, and has a good violin player.:thinks:
CryoSilver 11-28-07, 01:53 PM	The only problem is finding another place that serves black forest cake for desert, and has a good violin player.:thinks: Dragons can cast spells; Simulacrum is an option.