Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BlaineTog 09-07-05, 02:14 PM	The real question would be: can a 20th level fighter, decked out in 760,000 gp worth of goodies, take out this army? How about a ranger, or paladin, or barbarian, or maybe even the monk? How about if they were built with the explicit purpose of destroying this horde?Inspired by this thread, I would like to know: can anyone come up with a way that a level 20 fighter, barbarian, paladin, ranger, and/or monk could destroy an army made up exclusivelly of 10,000 warrior-1 goblins, without resorting to UMD or the ilk?
CzarGarrett 09-07-05, 02:15 PM	They could, its just going to take a long time. Although I doubt the fighter would win such a battle.
Temrek 09-07-05, 02:17 PM	I doubt it, if just 5% of the 10000 goblins hit and deal 2 damage it the fighter would suffer 1000 damage. His best bet would be damage reduction.
BlaineTog 09-07-05, 02:21 PM	I doubt it, if just 5% of the 10000 goblins hit and deal 2 damage it the fighter would suffer 1000 damage. His best bet would be damage reduction.Right. So how do we give him that?
Shade Harlok 09-07-05, 02:29 PM	Given the right terrain and tools a low level fighter could do it. Of course getting all 10,000 into that canyon with unscaleable walls it going to be mighty tricky. My question is why this question is even being asked with any seriousness. A good DM should be able to kill ANY single character, even if the character is near godhood, with that many goblins, kobolds, or what have you. If the DM can't, then they aren't being imaginative enough. Mokrii
Sapp 09-07-05, 02:32 PM	You really should provide a context like the other guy did. In the setting he gave us, the wizard was in his tower and saw the goblins days ahead of time. He was hoping the goblins would just avoid his town, but obviously he was prepared for the worst. The goblins had no chance. What is the scenario for this one? Does the fighter/monk/etc start off right smack in the middle of the goblins? Does he get items? Are the goblins organized by a leader? Or is it the exact same scenario as before? The previous scenario wouldn't make sense for a fighter though. A fighter in a wizard's tower? No followers? No cohort, or "right hand man"? Most importantly: is there a time limit? Those are just a few questions.
BlaineTog 09-07-05, 02:32 PM	My question is why this question is even being asked with any seriousness.For the same reason that people climb everest: I'm cray-zeee! :crazy: A good DM should be able to kill ANY single character, even if the character is near godhood, with that many goblins, kobolds, or what have you.No, a smart DM should be able to kill any character. A good DM won't ever have to, and certainly won't ever want to.
Lord Ian Stark 09-07-05, 03:09 PM	Seeng how there is no battle fatigue outside of a Rage ending in D&D, questions like this are rediculous.
Nightbane 09-07-05, 03:22 PM	A really really long spiked chain, great cleave, and improved whirlwind attack.
Sapp 09-07-05, 03:46 PM	Seeng how there is no battle fatigue outside of a Rage ending in D&D, questions like this are rediculous. Yes there is. Prolonged strenuous activity forces constitution checks. It should be up to the DM to decide. It isn't rediculous though, if a time limit is given. If the time limit is a few weeks long... then the fighter actually has a good chance. He just needs a Ring of Greater Sustenance and perhaps a Ring of Fast Healing. A bow and a quiver of plenty, and he's set to go sniping for a few weeks.
cvazi 09-07-05, 03:51 PM	How about a Terminator! Warforged fighter-horizonwalker with adamantium Body and 2 improved adamantium bodies (the one that raises DR by 2) can tirelessly hunt down the goblins (POOR GOBLINS!) with the track feat and they cannot outrun him because of dimension door 1/1d4 rounds. He will nerver be hurt because of his DR 6/adamantium. He will be an unstoppable goblin killing machine!
q'afuu 09-07-05, 04:26 PM	I doubt it, if just 5% of the 10000 goblins hit and deal 2 damage it the fighter would suffer 1000 damage. His best bet would be damage reduction. MM goblins do 1d6 damage in melee (morningstar), 1d4 from range (javelin). Most of the ranged ones won't get past the DR 3/- from adamantine fullplate, except the ones that crit (1/400 chance, so less than 25 of them if a few attack in melee) and the ones that roll max damage (1 in 4). If I'm generous, let's say the damage from range is 150 points per round, for the first round at least. The ones that'd attack in melee can't get to the fighter in enough numbers per round. The ones that do manage will likely all miss, the few that hit will do maybe 10 points of damage altogether, again being generous. That's 160 points of damage per round against the fighter. That's a lot, but hardly enough to kill him in one round, probably not even in 2 or 3. Of course, this presumes all the goblins get a shot at the fighter every round to begin with. Armed with morningstars and javelins and with a speed of only 20 ft, that's patently ridiculous. They probably don't even get a change to try and hit the fighter as long as he has ammo for his bow. A 20th level barbarian's DR 5/- makes him invulnerable against all but the melee attacks that do max regular damage and the crits, so he shouldn't have any problem at all. Really, the only chance this army of goblins has is if they can overbear the warrior by sheer numbers, and that in all probability presumes trapping him somewhere first.
Nidair 09-07-05, 04:43 PM	[QUOTE=cvazi]How about a Terminator!QUOTE] I prefer a hulk. And what is more hulking than a Nalfeshnee?
PhaedrusXY 09-07-05, 05:14 PM	Feral Mineral Warrior Half-Ogre with a spiked chain and Great Cleave. It would take him a while, but he'd win. The classes wouldn't even matter, lol. (He has DR 8/adamantine, fast healing, and 20 foot reach.)
Saihtam 09-08-05, 06:47 AM	You have a 1 in 20 chance for a critical miss and there are 10.000 goblins + add the critical hits from the goblins. I guess the fighter will kill himself before he gets trough all the goblins.
q'afuu 09-08-05, 07:07 AM	Only if you houserule in critical misses. I wouldn't do that, regardless of 10,000 goblins issues.
OctoberRaven 09-08-05, 07:30 AM	Terminator is a construct and thus would only be a warrior class. That being said, I know a way I fighter can take on 10,000 goblins. He asks his buddy the 20th-Level Wizard to do it for him. :rimshot:
thasis 09-08-05, 09:57 AM	Get Cleave and Greater Cleave. Spend 1 turn and hack your way through all of them. Pretty easy.
Nidair 09-08-05, 12:24 PM	Use "Intimidating Rage" and throw alchemist's fire at a goblin who is running away. Watch him run to the others, light them on fire too, who begin to run around too, setting others on fire... An' laugh. The above scenario has really happened, a loooooong time ago (and less goblins, more spread out I think).
Meorn 09-08-05, 01:35 PM	Well, since a goblin would only beat a 20th-lvl fighter's AC with a critical and that 20th-lvl fighter, if well built, would have an armor with DR and a pingent of regeneration, the goblins wouldn't stand a chance. It would be only a matter of time.
DaveReaves 09-08-05, 01:49 PM	Get Cleave and Greater Cleave. Spend 1 turn and hack your way through all of them. Pretty easy. Anime style mass carnage! I love it. The lone warrior draws his sword and in a flash, the army of goblins is dead. On lookers wonder what happened and it cuts to a flashback (of several seconds ago) where the warrior is sliceing heads off in slow motion while someone explains he was moving too fast for the eye to see. :eek: But yea, in theory he could slice through a jillion goblins in one rond if got lucky and never rolled a 1. Even if he does role that 1, he gets at least four chances at it if he uses a full round attack. Without money, perperation, or anything more that a dagger, a level 20 fighter can kill all 10,000 goblins in one turn. Lets see the Wizard do THAT!
spectralphoenix 09-08-05, 01:54 PM	Great cleave would not do it, but someone using a PrC that offers Supreme Cleave could technically takeout the entire horde in one round if they were tightly packed. Of course, it would probably take several rounds due to automatic misses or places where the next goblin is to far away, but he would destroy the horde with an average of five hundred attacks. With a Mantle of Faith (DR 5/evil) and Heavy Fortification Armor(Prevents all critical hits,) he would take roughly 1 damage per fifteen rounds (if eight goblins attack him every round and one in twenty hit, and one in six do enough to penetrate his DR, 120 divided by 8 is 15.) Assuming he has four attacks per round, it will take him roughly 125(500/4) rounds, during which he will suffer approximately 8 or 9 points of damage. The entire combat is over in twelve and a half minutes, or sooner with two weapons or potions of haste, which I don't think is enough time to fatigue someone with his fort save. And even if it is, there is only a penalty to STR and DEX, which will not drop his stats low enough to affect his goblin-slaying abilities.
Palin the Wizard 09-08-05, 05:53 PM	Supreme Cleave has been errata'd to only allow a single 5-foot step between cleaves per round. Great Cleave doesn't stand a chance, as you cannot move while cleaving.
Sapp 09-08-05, 05:58 PM	How does a fighter kill 10,000 goblins in one round?... This is the same problem we had in the "wizard vs 10,000 goblins" thread. 10,000 goblins will not fit into such a small area. I don't care what reach the fighter has.
Etharion 09-08-05, 06:05 PM	Well the Great Cleave would work if the goblins just kept leaping over their dead buddies, so the fighter wouldnt have to move. But then, even a 100 goblins is a considerable mountain of flesh, so the other goblins would need to climb over...no no, i dont think Great Cleave would work. ;)
spectralphoenix 09-08-05, 07:05 PM	I hadn't read the errata, but even if the character is a fighter who just has Great Cleave, he still wins. Every round eight goblins run up to him and attack, and on his turn he kills all eight with Great Cleave. If he kills eight goblins a round, it will take him about 1250 rounds to kill them all, or 2 hours five minutes. In this time they will deal roughly 83 damage to him, which is easily survivable for a twentieth level fighter even without potions or a ring of regeneration. The fighter can speed this time up with a spiked chain, which can conceivably kill 24 goblins per round if they all gather in close. Of course, he would have a bigger chance of rolling four natural 1's before he kills all the goblins for that round, but he would still finish in approximately 412 rounds and take about 28 points of damage. Regardless, tiring isn't a factor becuase even if the fighter is exhausted, he gets -6 to STR and DEX, which shouldn't reduce his AC below 22 or cause him to fail to kill a goblin on anything other than an natural 1 attack roll.
The_Ditto 09-08-05, 07:16 PM	A bow and a quiver of plenty, and he's set to go sniping for a few weeks. This is the easiest way .. Ranger / Horizon Walker ... Have the feat Far Shot ... Snipe at exteme range, and out-run / out-hide the main mass ... Sure, it might take weeks ... :rolleyes: But it's the easiest .. not real reliance on magic items ... just a basic build ... any magic items just add to the icing ..
LordHell 09-08-05, 07:17 PM	Actually a thrown Javelin has a range of 150ft. Assuming the Goblins surround the Fighter, 2,826 will be able to throw their Javelins at him at once. 141 will make critical hits for an average damage of 706.5, or 282 if he has 3/- DR. Meanwhile he has killed 8, and taken 282 damage. He will die next round for sure. This is a ludicrus situation in reality, but welcome to the D&D rules.
OctoberRaven 09-08-05, 07:18 PM	The real question is... could a level-20 monk defeat 10,000 Agent Smiths.
Ussutisi 09-08-05, 07:23 PM	But off course the goblins would pile up, and would have to climb over each other making this very difficult. Besides, if the DM was smart the goblins would just jump on the fighter, tackle him to the ground, and climb all over him in a huge pile. Sure, alot would die, but he can't kill every one with AoO. See suffication and drowning rules.
LordHell 09-08-05, 07:24 PM	But off course the goblins would pile up, and would have to climb over each other making this very difficult. Besides, if the DM was smart the goblins would just jump on the fighter, tackle him to the ground, and climb all over him in a huge pile. Sure, alot would die, but he can't kill every one with AoO. See suffication and drowning rules. The Goblins don't have to pile up. 2,826 Goblins can fit in a 150ft Radius - one in every 5ft square. And it doesnt matter if they take a -100 penalty on their attack roll due to soft cover and range incriments, they still score a hit on a natural 20.
Sapp 09-08-05, 07:54 PM	Eventually, the rules start depending on "common sense". I hate it when rules do that, but they do: Total Concealment: If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment). You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies. Varying Degrees of Concealment Certain situations may provide more or less than typical concealment, and modify the miss chance accordingly. Not only do the goblins have a hard time seeing the fighter, they don't even know what square he's on. Between the hundreds of javelins being flung, goblins scrambling, goblins being flung into the air by cleave attacks, I'd say the fighter has beyond total concealment (70%+ miss chance). For the sake of this argument though, let's just say it's only 50% (normal total concealment), just to stick as closely to the rules as possible without relying on "common sense". Also, if the fighter got the Deflect Arrows feat, or an item of some sorts that grants a similar ability (a magic shield, perhaps), that's 1 less arrow per round. So the answer isn't as obvious as just ("at least 100 critical hits per round! omg! the fighter lost!"). I'm not saying the fighter would win. It's not as guaranteed as it is in the case with a wizard vs 10,000 goblins. Also, the context hasn't been given (though I have asked). If it's the same situation as the one given in the "20th level wizard vs 10,000 goblins" thread, then the fighter can't possibly stop the goblins before they reach the town. If the goal was to simply kill the opponent... and no time limit is given, a fighter or ranger can easily win, provided he doesn't do anything stupid.
Vanigo 09-08-05, 08:10 PM	A 20th level monk has DR 10/magic, so he's immune to even most crits. Only a melee crit can damage him, but only just barely. Even the laughably weak ring of regeneration will suffice to heal the amount of damage he's going to take. However, even he's likely to die eventually if you use the nat 20 + nat 20 + confirmation = instant kill rule, since most monks don't have heavy fortification armor.
LordHell 09-08-05, 08:14 PM	I forgot about concealment, but even with total concealment he is in serious trouble - it just delays the inevitable. Yes the situation is ludicrus, but my post was mainly aimed at the guy who said the Fighter could great cleave his way through the Goblins. Deflect arrows only works against opponents he is aware of. If you argue that has has total concealment to some Goblins, then the reverse is true and he is not aware :) Vanigo: The 20-20 instant death rule is a variant rule, I believe.
Serielle 09-08-05, 08:29 PM	heavy fortification platemail, a sheild of invulnerablity, and a pearly white ioun stone. Negates critical damage, and gives 5/magic damage reduction so you can ignore all those ranged attacks. The only attacks that can damage you are the melee ones using the morninstar, if they roll a 7 or 8 on damage. One in every 20 melee attacks will hit you, and since you're only taking 8 melee attacks a round, chances are the 1 hp regen per round from the ioun stone will keep you at full health. If not, you have about 200+ hp to absorb damage anyway. Happy slaughtering. Edit: Oh hell, it gets better if you use 3.5 goblins. No ranged javelin attack will get past the dr, and only rolling max damage on melee will.
Bardicstorm 09-08-05, 08:39 PM	ok... 1 20th lvl Barbarian (DR 5/-), uncanny dodge (no flanking bonuses for the greenies), +5 Full Plate of Heavy Fortification (no criticals), Ring of Sustenance, Ring of Elemental Command (Fire) (burning hands, unlimited use), +5 Dancing Greatsword, Bracers of Armor +8, Amulet of Natural Armor +5 DR: 5/-, not subject to criticals, AC of 26, +5 dancing greatsword with at least a +25 attack bonus, Needs no food or water, burning hands at will, flaming sphere 2/day, wall of fire 1/day, flame strike 2/week. Using the concealment rules, he will only take damage from attacks that are both natural 20s and do more than 5pts of damage. While his sword is dancing (4 rounds, he can use the burning hands ability at will. He'd take a while to get through them, but I feel confident he would. total equipment cost: 580,500gp
Ussutisi 09-08-05, 08:47 PM	heavy fortification platemail, a sheild of invulnerablity, and a pearly white ioun stone. Negates critical damage, and gives 5/magic damage reduction so you can ignore all those ranged attacks. The only attacks that can damage you are the melee ones using the morninstar, if they roll a 7 or 8 on damage. One in every 20 melee attacks will hit you, and since you're only taking 8 melee attacks a round, chances are the 1 hp regen per round from the ioun stone will keep you at full health. If not, you have about 200+ hp to absorb damage anyway. Happy slaughtering. Edit: Oh hell, it gets better if you use 3.5 goblins. No ranged javelin attack will get past the dr, and only rolling max damage on melee will. Which is why they should just jump on him. Think about it: 8 run at him from all sides and bull rush him. If any one succedes he can't back up and falls down. And if they all fail the ones behind them can run up. eventually he falls prone and they all jump on him. It wouldn't be about a limit on how many small creatures can grapple a medium, in would be about them jumping on the prone fighter, and forming a living hill of goblins. If a goblin with all his gear wieghs, say 60 pounds, and a few dozen jump on him, sure they kill each other, but eventually tghey pile up and he gets a few hundred pounds on him. Sarcasm On Why doesn't the PHB have rules for using hills of humaniod creatures piled on top of each other to crush and sufficate foes?
Sapp 09-08-05, 08:52 PM	Wait! Unlike the situation with the wizard, the goblins might actually get up and close. Now, I'd hope that the goblins would be smart enough to try and grapple the fighter, knowing that normal attack methods will fail. Since goblins are small, up to 8 can grapple the fighter at the same time. The goblin only needs to make a touch attack on the fighter to make this work. Once a single goblin starts grappling the fighter, all other grabs automatically succeed. This doesn't mean that the goblins are winning the grapple, but I do believe that they at least prevent the fighter from getting dex bonus to AC. I'm not sure there are rules for this (I think there aren't), but I think that while the fighter is being grappled by 8 goblins, the 8 others near him can try to strip him. It's extremely hard for the fighter to keep hold of his belongings while being grappled by 8 goblins (and I'm sure he would get multiple penalties for doing so). That would be a more realistic way of looking at it.
spectralphoenix 09-08-05, 08:56 PM	If the fighter has the Mantle of Faith and Heavy Fortification armor, it doesn't matter if every goblin in the world throws a javelin at him. They can't crit and they can't bypass his DR. As for grappling, one in twenty goblins will survive the AOO. An 18 DEX (12 natural + 6 for Gauntlets) and ring of Deflection +5 give him touch AC 19, so one in five goblins will hit that, times one in twenty goblins will beat his grapple check. that means 1 in 2000 goblins will successfully intitiate a grapple. Even if they do grapple only four goblins can grapple the fighter at a time, and he will easily kill them all on his turn. Furthermore, the goblins can't hurt his DR unarmed and they can't use their weapons in a grapple. Other goblins will have an easier time grappling him once he's already in a grapple, but they will still all die next round since the fighter has four attacks against a maximum of four opponents. The fight might take slightly longer, but the fighter has 200 hp or so, and will easily win.
LordHell 09-08-05, 09:13 PM	Ok, heavy fortifaction armour obviously negates most of the damage. Grappling however, is different. 7 Goblins can help the 8th if they succed a attack vs DC10, giving that 8th Goblin a +14 bonus on his check. They'll get him eventually.
spectralphoenix 09-08-05, 09:32 PM	It doesn't matter how many goblins are grappling him. They can't use their morning stars, and DR from Mantle of Faith negates the 1d2 damage the goblin deals in a grapple. If the goblins use aid another, its only about 50% likely to work, so the goblin will get a +7 to +9 bonus. The fighter gets +28 or so, and four tries if the other goblins are all just aiding the first.
BlaineTog 09-08-05, 09:33 PM	7 Goblins can help the 8th if they succed a attack vs DC10, giving that 8th Goblin a +14 bonus on his check. They'll get him eventually.i think the DC's actually 15, but regardless, the fighter'll almost certainly have much more than +14, especially if he's trained for group fighting like this.
LordHell 09-08-05, 09:48 PM	i think the DC's actually 15, but regardless, the fighter'll almost certainly have much more than +14, especially if he's trained for group fighting like this. It's 10. His grapple is likely check is likely to be around the mid-high +20's. The point in the +14 is that they have a chance to win _and_ pin him. At their normal +1 grapple check, they have no chance of beating him. Natural 1's and 20's dont come into play with opposed grapple checks. Once he is pinned he cannot damage them for one round, and they can begin to attempt to strip his items. With 10,000 of them, they're going to nail him eventually. Ok let's work out the maths. For say 7 Goblins to all roll higher than DC10 - that's a 60% chance per Goblin, or 2.79% that all of them will succeed. That means, out of 10,000 - 279 are going to get that chance. At +15 vs say +28 they have to roll a 14 or higher to win. That's 35%. So, at least on average 97 Goblins will manage to grapple him. In place of an attack they can try to pin him. With a 35% chance of success, at least 33 Goblins will be succeed in pinning him. Of those 33 Goblins, 15% will successly rip at item off him, meaning at least 4 Goblins can remove items he has firmly attached. That incudes gauntlets, cloaks, magical items, and so forth. So the Goblins have a chance, only due to shere numbers.
PhaedrusXY 09-08-05, 09:51 PM	The real question is... could a level-20 monk defeat 10,000 Agent Smiths. :rofl: I might add this to my sig... That is beautiful.
BlaineTog 09-08-05, 10:02 PM	It's 10.Oy. My DM has been screwing us for the better part of a year, then. At +15 vs say +28 they have to roll a 14 or higher to win. That's 35%.Ok, first, let's address the fighter's grapple: 20 (BaB) + 10 (Strength 30) + 4 (Improved Grapple -- c'mon, this is a fighter we're talking about. Of couse he'd have it) = +34, and that's not even really trying. Second, this is an opposed check. So there is a 5% chance that the figher gets a 35 and a 5% chance that those goblins get a 35, which means they have a 1-in-400 chance of succeeding. Or, at least, that's the chance that they would have, except the grappler with a higher modifer wins ties.
spectralphoenix 09-08-05, 10:06 PM	Two problems: the goblins need to make a touch attack and survive an AOO to grab the fighter as well as a grapple check, and the aid another text says the bonus only applies to "a single attack roll." even assuming that a grapple check counts as an attack roll (which I doubt). The goblin might be able to initiate a grapple, but the pinning and stripping wouldn't get the other goblins bonuses. A 20% touch attack 5% surviving AOO times 35% grapple times 5% pin times 5% strip equals roughly 1 in 114,000 odds of succesfully removing an item.Even if one goblin succeeds, the fighter can take the item back on his turn after he kills the goblin.
spectralphoenix 09-08-05, 10:14 PM	Sorry to repost, but I also remembered that it would take the goblin doing this three rounds to grapple, pin and strip since he only has one attack. That gives the Fighter eight chances chances to beat him before the goblin removes the item. This changes the goblins odds of succes to roughly 1 in 3 thousand trillion (2.9*10^15). If every fight took 2 hours as described above, and the fighter took part in them nonstop, it would take roughly 60 billion years for a goblin to complete the manuever.
LordHell 09-08-05, 10:32 PM	Technically it all takes two rounds to pin someone. 1. Touch Attack. 2. Opposed Grapple check as a free action Next round 1. Pin check. Anyway, as BlaineTog pointed out the Fighters grapple check is likely to be +30, significantly reducing the Goblins chances. What about using a swarm template? Also the Fighter can kill the Goblins in 954 rounds if he is using a 5ft weapon with great cleave, factoring in 1's for critical misses.
spectralphoenix 09-08-05, 10:38 PM	The goblin takes one round to make to grapple, two rounds to pin, and then removes the item on the third round. The fighter gets to try before and after the pin. While I suppose it is possible that the goblin could pin, the fighter could break and then fail to kill the goblin, get pinned again, and then lose the item, after everything else I didn't think that was statistically significant.
Sapp 09-08-05, 11:55 PM	Really? I must have read the rules wrong. I thought once a goblin makes a successful "grab" (touch attack), he initiates a grapple with the fighter. It doesn't matter if he's successful or not, for that round, the other goblins get free grabs. The fighter would be able to escape if there weren't other goblins attempting to grapple him in the same round. So once a single goblin hits him with a touch attack, the fighter is pretty much doomed to be held on by 8 goblins at all times. If a goblin gets a single item from the fighter, the fighter shouldn't get it back... all the goblin needs to do is throw it away or drop it (free action) while another goblin picks it up and throws it away (full round action). The fighter is stuck in a grapple, so regardless of whether he's succeeding or not, he's limited in the type of actions he can do (explained in SRD). I don't think chasing after items is one of those options.
spectralphoenix 09-09-05, 12:09 AM	I suppose you might be right about him not being able to regain his item, though it doesn't really matter since the goblins don't realistically stand a chance of getting it in the first place. Regardless, if he brings along a dozen or so potions of enlarge, it won't matter. It is impossible to initiate a grapple with someone two or more sizes larger than you.
BlaineTog 09-09-05, 12:18 AM	Anyway, as BlaineTog pointed out the Fighters grapple check is likely to be +30, significantly reducing the Goblins chances.No, it is assured to be at least +34, completelly crushing the goblins' chances. A 20th level human fighter has 29 feats. I don't think he's going to find it hard to fit Improved Grapple in there, especially considering that this fighter would have been custom-fitted for grappling. Wait... Goblins are small. That means they get -4 to Grapple checks. So the fighter doesn't even have to take Improved Grapple to get an effective +34. Also, the goblin provokes an AoO by trying to initiate the grapple. The figher will almost assuredly hit, and if he hits, we will undoubtably kill the goblin, which means he dropped a goblin, which means his Great Cleave feat comes into effect, which basically means (unless I'm mistaken) that all the goblins surrounding him die.
spectralphoenix 09-09-05, 02:02 AM	True. If the goblins try to grapple him, not only will it not work, but the fighter will probably kill them all faster than if they used conventional tactics.
Kohdok 09-09-05, 02:13 AM	Cleave, Great Cleave, Hold the Line, Combat Reflexes, Whirlwind Attack tree. Would that work, when combined with Adamantine armor and a Mighty Cleaving sword in case he misses (Quite remote. He has a +20 attack againt goblins with an AC of 16. Only 1 in twenty, then he has his secondary attack.) I believe Hold The Line lets him attack something when it simply enters his threat zone... I think... But I'm not sure. What about 3,872 Orcs? (Tell me where it's from to get a cookie)
Callahan 09-09-05, 02:16 AM	also: Armour of Heavy Fortification. Let's face it. they only chance these Goblins have of hurting a fighter that high a level is with a critical.
Sapp 09-09-05, 03:46 AM	How would Balance factor into play? Would it help or hamper the fighter? Oddly enough, fighter doesn't have Balance as a class skill (In my opinion, that's poor design, but whatever). I'm assuming that the small bodies soaked with blood would be difficult terrain to walk on. The fighter would need at least 5 ranks in Balance to avoid being flatfooted while balancing on the bodies. The goblins might not have as hard of a time, because small bodies walking on small bodies isn't as bad as a medium human walking on small bodies. Oh yeah, can we finally agree on the setting? For example, what race is the fighter? Is there a time limit? If there's no time limit and the fighter is a troll...
Calendinedhel 09-09-05, 03:47 AM	the only way i can think of would be a fighter or ranger with exotic weapon proficiency greatbow, with it enchanted with exit wounds, various feats increasing range etc, about twenty quivers of arrows. Then he'd need a high wisdom and have as many arrow storm spells prepared as possible! He'd need to have ranks in order of the bow initiate to avoid attacks of opportunity as well.
Palin the Wizard 09-09-05, 04:41 AM	Oh, come on. It doesn't matter how good the fighter is, if 10,000 goblins are intent on killing him regardless of what happens to them, they *will*. All they have to do is make a pile on him. Doesn't matter if they're grappling him or not, anyone can throw themselves at an enemy.
Sapp 09-09-05, 05:02 AM	Oh, come on. It doesn't matter how good the fighter is, if 10,000 goblins are intent on killing him regardless of what happens to them, they *will*. All they have to do is make a pile on him. Doesn't matter if they're grappling him or not, anyone can throw themselves at an enemy. The problem is, a well equipped fighter doesn't have to even go near them. A simple boots of striding or speed would keep him far away. Heck, winged boots work as well. Stay in the air shooting down arrows that you draw from your quiver of plenty... shooting up would be a lot harder. That's why we really need a context. Given infinite time, any class could beat 10,000 goblins. The problem with the 10,000 goblins is lack of flexibility. If we assume that they're MM1 statistic goblins, like in the previous thread, they are simply too weak. To get anywhere near the magnificent items a level 20 character has, they would need to sell every bit of their equipment. Then we have to wonder "who do they sell it to? Who would want 10,000 articles of junk? What city could or would support 10,000 goblins with good items?" etc... That's why we need setting. What world are they in? Can the goblins decide to take over a city first and salvage any useful magic items from that city? Can they unite under one strong leader? As we all know, both this situation and the previous one involving the 20th level wizard are both extremely unfair to the goblins. They all must be level 1 warriors. They don't have a competent leader. They're pretty much stuck with the items they've been given.
FreeTheSlaves 09-09-05, 07:47 AM	10,000 Goblins would not be all 1st level warriors, not by a long shot. I believe that the 20th level Goblin warlord & Lieutenants would take this lone fighter apart, just like they would the lone wizard. Where does this assumption come from that other humanoids don't have leader figures too? I base my level assumptions on a goblin community of 20,000, with 1/2 not fighting. I then looked at the demographics in the "generating towns" rules in the DMG. Heck this can even generate a 22nd level Goblin rogue... CDG when Mr Fighter goes sleepy-time.
Sapp 09-09-05, 10:59 AM	10,000 Goblins would not be all 1st level warriors, not by a long shot. I believe that the 20th level Goblin warlord & Lieutenants would take this lone fighter apart, just like they would the lone wizard. Where does this assumption come from that other humanoids don't have leader figures too? Actually, for the wizard thread, if you read the context, it was stated that all 10,000 were level 1 warriors. Even if they weren't, the goblin would not be taking the wizard apart. I base my level assumptions on a goblin community of 20,000, with 1/2 not fighting. I then looked at the demographics in the "generating towns" rules in the DMG. Heck this can even generate a 22nd level Goblin rogue... CDG when Mr Fighter goes sleepy-time. In that case, the fighter would be in trouble, however, we've not been given a setting. Environment and context are so important that... Let me tell you guys a story a martial arts buff friend of mine told me once. I don't think it's true, but it's funny nevertheless. A guy once went into dojo of twenty or so martial arts students. He boldly proclaimed that he could defeat all 20 of them at the same time if he got to choose terrain. The students, incredulously, took him up on the challenge. The guy was a professional water polo player and won by staying away from his opponents, and dunking the few that he thought were struggling or tiring. In the case of the wizard, terrain doesn't matter because a wizard has way too much flexibility.
Man in the Funny Hat 09-09-05, 11:24 AM	Inspired by this thread, I would like to know: can anyone come up with a way that a level 20 fighter, barbarian, paladin, ranger, and/or monk could destroy an army made up exclusivelly of 10,000 warrior-1 goblins, without resorting to UMD or the ilk?Technically, yes. For practical purposes, it SHOULD be unlikely. It comes down to actual circumstances and those are going to be SO varied that the question as it stands is unanswerable. Type of terrain, initial encounter distance, the equipment and skills that the warrior has (and for those purposes are you sticking to core rules, published supplements, or make-it-all-up-as-long-as-it's-by-the-book-legal?), the equipment that the goblins have, the terrain, the roleplaying aspects of why the goblins are going after this lone warrior (or vice versa) - these all have a great deal of bearing on the practical feasibility. By rights anything 8 levels/CR below the lone fighting man in question is so weak by comparison that he no longer gets XP credit for defeating them, but that doesn't mean that a given number of those opponents are insignificant as opponents.
spectralphoenix 09-09-05, 12:56 PM	It isn't that complicated. Barring the theory that 10,000 goblins in close proximity would spontaneously generate epic level goblins (and come on, how many epic level goblins do you really think exist in the world?) any 20th fighter with heavy fortification armor, a mantle of faith, and all of the other stuff he can get with 760k gold will decimate the goblins. I don't think him being flatfooted would be much of an issue in terms of fighting ability, but if he took a 5-foot step at the end of every round it would not be an issue.
Ezell Pike 09-09-05, 01:11 PM	Yes there is. Prolonged strenuous activity forces constitution checks. It should be up to the DM to decide. It isn't rediculous though, if a time limit is given. If the time limit is a few weeks long... then the fighter actually has a good chance. He just needs a Ring of Greater Sustenance and perhaps a Ring of Fast Healing. A bow and a quiver of plenty, and he's set to go sniping for a few weeks. The ranger with all of the above, goblinoids as favored enemy since lvl one,and storm of arrows and would have hide in plain sight so I gotta ask how many rounds are in a day?
BeyondFated 09-09-05, 01:13 PM	The ranger would have hide in plain sight so I gotta ask how many rounds are in a day. 1 per 6 sec. 10 per Minute. 600 per Hour. 14,400 per Day. 100,800 per Week. 5,241,600 per Year. 52,416,000 per Decade. 524,160,000 per Century. 5,241,600,000 per Millenium Unless my math is wrong. Which it is probably is. -edit- Redid the math, probably more righter, but still wrong. I think. My original math was in seconds, not rounds. -edit edit- Saw other poster's math, he's right. Refer to poster below for correct math.
Bardicstorm 09-09-05, 01:25 PM	1 per 6 sec. 10 per minute. 60 per hour. 86400 in a day. 604800 in a week. 31536000 in a year. 315360000 in a decade. 3153600000 in a century. 31536000000 in a millenium. Unless my math is wrong. Which it is. yep.. it would be: 10 per Minute. 600 per Hour. 14,400 per Day. 100,800 per Week. 5,241,600 per Year. 52,416,000 per Decade. 524,160,000 per Century. 5,241,600,000 per Millenium.
Bane 09-09-05, 01:38 PM	Goblins probably win. They mob him, grapple him, and drag him into an ocean or a volcano or something, lemming style. There's enough goblins that they could take over if one of the died or got tired or something.
Ezell Pike 09-09-05, 01:58 PM	100% casualty rate in 12hrs, 17hrs if they try to run. An elf ranger still has 3 hours to play fetch with his animal companion before bedtime.
Sapp 09-09-05, 02:27 PM	The ranger with all of the above, goblinoids as favored enemy since lvl one,and storm of arrows and would have hide in plain sight so I gotta ask how many rounds are in a day? You must remember this: I always make the most conservative estimates. When I say that it might take a few or several weeks, I'm taking into consideration that it might take a while to track them all down, even with boots of striding and/or speed. This is, assuming of course, that unlike the goblins given in the "wizard vs goblins" scenario, the goblins are not fearless and will run.
Sapp 09-09-05, 02:30 PM	Neo certainly does seem like a level 20 monk. Are agent smiths also monks? Do they all have quivering palm (which would guarantee them a win)?
BlaineTog 09-09-05, 03:03 PM	What about 3,872 Orcs? (Tell me where it's from to get a cookie)Munchkin! Goblins probably win. They mob him, grapple him, and drag him into an ocean or a volcano or something, lemming style. There's enough goblins that they could take over if one of the died or got tired or something.RTFT. They literally can't grapple a melee fighter, and they won't be able to get close enough to a ranged one.
BlaineTog 09-09-05, 03:08 PM	Neo certainly does seem like a level 20 monk. Are agent smiths also monks?It's hardly a fair fight to pit 10,000 level 15 monks against one level 20 monk. Do they all have quivering palm (which would guarantee them a win)?Not necessarily. If the monk finds a way to become immune to critical hits, he's golden. Let's assume that only 1/20 of the attacks hit, and he makes his save 19/20 times (this monk heavily boosted his AC and Fort save). That means Quivering Palm will only affect him 25 times. If he has three Scarabs of Protection (and quickly swaps them when they burn out), he's safe. That's two ways of avoiding it. Way three: I'm looking at the wording, and it is possible that even without immunity, the monk might be able to survive 10,000 Quivering Palm attacks. Now, we can assume that the Agent Smith has to spend his move action getting to the monk (the very first wave would certainly have to, and by the time the monk would have to deal with a succesful Quivering Palm, he'd be at the top of a pile of Smith bodies, or he'd just constantly run around). This means that the attack that delivers the Quivering Palm would end the Smith's turn, which means he doesn't get to use his free action to kill the Monk until the next turn. If the monk kills the Smith that succeeded on Quivering Palming him before that Smith's next turn, he can't will the monk to death. EDIT: I also came up with a good justification for this: Illusi-deck malfunction. :P
Bane 09-09-05, 04:37 PM	It is most certainly not impossible for a melee fighter to be grappled. I suggest you look at flanking, Aid another, and rules for joining a grapple. It may not be an assured success, but 10,000 grapplers can give you a lot of subdual damage before you run out of goblins. Also, you can not eliminate more than one goblin at a time during the grapple.
Bardicstorm 09-09-05, 05:06 PM	It is most certainly not impossible for a melee fighter to be grappled. I suggest you look at flanking, Aid another, and rules for joining a grapple. It may not be an assured success, but 10,000 grapplers can give you a lot of subdual damage before you run out of goblins. Also, you can not eliminate more than one goblin at a time during the grapple. Ok, lets examine some of the rules... DMG (pg 156): To make the grapple you must try to grab your opponent which provokes an attack of opportunity. (bam, dead goblin) Should you pass the AoO, you must make a melee touch attack. (Many goblins will fail) If you succeed at your melee touch attack you must make an opposed grapple check to hold on. losing this step means you failed to start the grapple. (no goblin could do this with the fighter, remember goblin has -4 also due to size.) The next step is moot. DMG (pg 157): Joining a grapple: if your opponent is already grappling someone else, you can start a grapple without provoking an AoO and automatically succeeding with a touch attack. You still must make the opposed grapple check to start the grapple. (keep in mind that since the goblins cannot possibly win an opposed grapple, the fighter will not already be grappling anyone) Multiple Grapplers: Up to four combatants can grapple a single opponent in a round. Creatures that are 1 or more size categories smaller count for half. (so 8 goblins can grapple per round maximum, if it ever got that far) When grappling with multiple opponents you choose one opponent to make an opposed grapple check against. The exception is an attempt to escape from the grapple to escape, your grapple check must beat the check results of each opponent. (our fighter will always do this) Now, even with 10,000 goblins, only 8 may reach the fighter in any given round. Flanking does not help with grapple checks (only with the melee touch attack). Aid another will only help with the melee touch attack, not the grapple check. Now, a MM1 (bear in mind I only have the 3.0 Ed.) Goblin's grapple check is -3 (+2 BAB -1 Str -4 Size). The best grapple check a goblin can get is 17. The 20th lvl Fighter, with no str bonus (which is absurd) has a grapple check of +20 (+20 BAB +0 Str +0 Size). The worst grapple check the fighter can make is 21. The goblins cannot, as per the rules, ever grapple the fighter.
Sapp 09-09-05, 06:56 PM	Just to prevent confusion though, do you mean "never succeed a grapple" against the fighter? Goblins can easily initiate a grapple I think. The fighter just has to succeed the grapple to get loose. As he's doing that, I believe that the other goblins get free grabs. Of course, they won't succeed in grappling or pinning him, but they will be able to at least start a grapple with him. Starting a grapple is relatively simple, I think. Let me know if I read the rules incorrectly.
Bardicstorm 09-09-05, 07:50 PM	Just to prevent confusion though, do you mean "never succeed a grapple" against the fighter? Goblins can easily initiate a grapple I think. The fighter just has to succeed the grapple to get loose. As he's doing that, I believe that the other goblins get free grabs. Of course, they won't succeed in grappling or pinning him, but they will be able to at least start a grapple with him. Starting a grapple is relatively simple, I think. Let me know if I read the rules incorrectly. Yes, they can try to grab him all they want, and some may succeed in grabbing him, but by definition the fighter is not grappling unless he fails the grapple check, which means no free grabs for the other gobbies, they all have to try and do it the hard way. Of course, if the fighter decides to grapple with the goblin to kill it with his bare hands, then he's grappling and the other gobbies can grab on for free, but they still have to succeed the opposed grapple check, which they can't.
spectralphoenix 09-09-05, 11:20 PM	Has anyone actually read my earlier posts? If the fighter has the Mantle of Faith, no goblin can possibly damage him in a grapple. The odds of successfully moving the fighter even once are such that it will happen only once in more than 400 years or so, even if the DM allows the goblins to aid another on grapple checks, which I do not think is technically legal. Lastly, the grab check automatically fails if the target is two or more size categories larger, so the fighter could avoid all of this in the first place with a dozen potions of enlarge person.
FreeTheSlaves 09-09-05, 11:45 PM	So we have established that in some extremely contrived scenario involving a 20th level Fighter, when decked out in 760,000gp of customized Goblin slaying equipment, could defeat 10,000 homogeneous Goblins. Assuming the Goblins poured forth without pause for morale. And assuming the Goblins' goal was to only to defeat this Fighter. And assuming the Fighter was happy to earn 0xp for an activity that would last for days. :rimshot:
spectralphoenix 09-10-05, 12:25 AM	The only items specifically mentioned were the Mantle of Faith and the Heavy Fortification armor, both of which are good buys whether the fighter is facing goblins or not. Most people assumed he had STR 26, which means he has a Belt of giant strength +6, but I think practically every 20th level fighter has one in a standard campaign. This is the only equipment he really needs to defeat the goblins, though the potions of enlarge are nice to avoid having to show that he cannot be grappled. If the goblins simply attack, a fighter with Great Cleave will destroy them all in roughly 2 hours and five minutes. This will be faster if the goblins try some scheme involving grappling due to AOO. If they decide to run away, he will still kill them, though it may take longer. Of course, depending on his objectives, the goblins running away may count as a success.
R-man 09-10-05, 09:23 AM	mounted fighter/Ranger etc with mounted archery feats and the various feats/prestige classes/magical items to get an absurd maximum range and simply stay too far away for the Goblins to attack back and simply fill them full of arrows. Will probably need some kind of bow or quiver that allows unlimited ammunition.
Orayn, Elvish Blademaster 09-10-05, 10:24 AM	With a good deal of magic items, a buttload of whirlwind attacks and cleaves, he might stand a chance. But 10,000 is an awful lot. You might be talking Epic levels for a fighter to do that.
BeyondFated 09-10-05, 10:31 AM	So we have established that in some extremely contrived scenario involving a 20th level Fighter, when decked out in 760,000gp of customized Goblin slaying equipment, could defeat 10,000 homogeneous Goblins. Assuming the Goblins poured forth without pause for morale. And assuming the Goblins' goal was to only to defeat this Fighter. And assuming the Fighter was happy to earn 0xp for an activity that would last for days. :rimshot: Pretty much. But hey, its alot harder for a fighter to kill alot of goblins than a wizard with dozens of wands of Fireball, Cloudkill, Chain Lightning, and Meteor Swarm.
FreeTheSlaves 09-10-05, 11:18 AM	If I had a genuine 20th level character, I sure wouldn't waste my time messing around with the enemy mooks. Instead I'd be hitting the enemy core & breaking the Goblin morale with some awe inspring accomplishment, or mobilizing my nearby feudal knights while I attend to the real danger. For the record, I would pull the 10,000 Goblins adventure at about 13th when the party has easy access to 7th level spells.
K_Man 09-10-05, 01:34 PM	I haven't read it all, but what about Karmic Strike? Kill all 8 (or 6 with hexes) with Great Cleave, then, when the remainder come in to hit you, you'll get hit 1 in 400, then you AoA and Great Cleave them all again. It would speed it up, a little. Or, simple Horns of Blasting, or some other misc wonderous items that would add some area affect stuff in there.